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Should I call out my professor?
- Thread starter Necr0sis713
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You don't need to cross your fingers, because those 5 points will have no bearing on your medical career. How you handle it is a lot more important.
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Ugh this was painful to read. Reminded me of what it was like to be with those "neurotic premed type" of kids my first two years of school.
My advice would be to move on. You think it's hard taking unfair bull from people above you? Just wait till life gets real. Move on and keep working hard. Maybe this will be motivation for you to work both accurately and more quickly on your next labs.
For some reason I always had too much pride to beg for points throughout all those classes.
My mantra has always been to try to get your grade to a place where you don't have to beg. Any missteps are just motivation to work harder. Maybe consider that point of view.
My advice would be to move on. You think it's hard taking unfair bull from people above you? Just wait till life gets real. Move on and keep working hard. Maybe this will be motivation for you to work both accurately and more quickly on your next labs.
For some reason I always had too much pride to beg for points throughout all those classes.
My mantra has always been to try to get your grade to a place where you don't have to beg. Any missteps are just motivation to work harder. Maybe consider that point of view.
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People are encouraging you to look at the big picture here, OP. In the future, try to build a good relationship with your TAs and professors, even if they aren't your favorite people in the world.
Imagine this scenario: two orgo students are both upset about their grades and go talk to the prof.
Student 1: "I don't think it's fair that I lost points on this assignment. I did better than [other student] and he didn't lose points. My TA is unfair!"
Student 2: "I'm not doing as well as I would like to do in your class. Do you have any advice for me going forward? I want to do a better job on my remaining lab reports, and I would really appreciate your feedback."
The second approach will be much more effective.
If you end up talking to your prof or TA, do NOT do the following:
Imagine this scenario: two orgo students are both upset about their grades and go talk to the prof.
Student 1: "I don't think it's fair that I lost points on this assignment. I did better than [other student] and he didn't lose points. My TA is unfair!"
Student 2: "I'm not doing as well as I would like to do in your class. Do you have any advice for me going forward? I want to do a better job on my remaining lab reports, and I would really appreciate your feedback."
The second approach will be much more effective.
If you end up talking to your prof or TA, do NOT do the following:
- Complain about other students' grades.
- Make excuses (ex: "I decided to embrace every step and really take my time.")
- Argue about grading unless you have clear proof that your report was graded incorrectly
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This.
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Just another word of advice for OP: I've heard of medical students showing up a minute late for surgery on their rotation only to find the door to the surgical suite locked.
The art of time mgt is crucial for success in med school.
The art of time mgt is crucial for success in med school.
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Contesting it on the spot would dig your grave even deeper. Try talking to her at a later time, in private, like adults. That, or drug her.
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Droor.
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"right at the timer ends... and 30 second later. I run across the length of an average classroom 5 times in 30 seconds (and I average like 12 min per mile) ... That's not "right when the timer ends" lol
I only did that when it made a difference between letter grades.
I also taught - I wanted to bitch slapp all the kids trying to go from 81 --> 83. It didn't even matter and they are wasting my time?
I doubt that. You questioning them is like saying you challenging them. We teachers (and TA and graders) have the absolute say - Piss us off - we grade you harder next time.
Whoa... way to be a gunner - throwing students under the bus already? Dang. Those are the worst students lol
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What a load of petty bull****. Grading someone harder because they annoy you or someone easier because they flirt with you etc...makes me glad that more and more exams and assignments are being graded blindly with only ID#s instead of names
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It's because he or she is gonna dig for every point - so you better grade his/her paper VERY carefully ... which USUALLY results in a lower grade.
Whenever a student asks me to regrade something. I regrade the ENTIRE report. They almost always get a lower score. I spend 2-3 min on a lab report. I'm going to miss if the table isn't formatted well enough, or if they didn't use an appropriate font, or if they forgot page numbers, or if forgot a few units in a 10 page paper. You can bet your ass if I spend time regrading - I will spend 5-10 min on that lab report = A **** TON MORE errors get caught.
Usually errors that I grade but often miss: the occasional (keyword) Wrong sig fig, missing or incorrect units, formatting, style, discussion details (sometimes you can blabber yourself out of the right answer. I just read until I get the point and move on... but there has been a regrade where she kept going and then it just became wrong), slight calculation error (every data is different, every result is different - I'm not going to take a calculator and check if they have right formulas and demonstrated a sample calculation).
edit: Obviously I'm not trying to play favoritism. I don't give enough ****s about their grade to do that. My time is precious. So if it's riddled with errors, even at 2-3 min per report, I can get a pretty accurate grading (on a rubric). Honestly, in a 10 page report, if 99% of it had correct sig fig... I'll probably not even see the 1% with wrong sig fig - which I WILL see when I scrutinized. No student has ever asked me to regrade after the first year - rumors spread fast 😀. If I actually graded someone down far more than I should've - fine, maybe they will get a better grade. I think I've graded lab reports for 4-5 years between high school and college. One student came out with a better grade - I gave her the wrong "unknown" so obvious her result was going to be way different than everyone else's.
So it's not so much being vindictive (well it kind of is)... it's like "oh you want me to be FAIR? Ok... I'll be extra fair just for you".
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tbh, constantly challenging your grade is a load of petty bull****. there is an old saying: dont **** where you eat. or dont bite the hand that feeds. pick which ever one you like more.
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Lol, this semester for me is jam packed...I've noticed I'm starting to lose it and make dumb spelling errors like this. Literally typing how things sound in my head... Haha
Keep in mind folks, the only reason why I'm so desperate about those 5 points is because I'm on the border of an a or b
So border b/w B+ and A-...you'll live.
And, at least at my school, when students are at the border of two grades, the prof will consult with the TA to decide the grade. If the TA says that you are grade obsessed and don't care about anything else (or that you are a slacker), you get the lower grade. If the TA says that you work hard, they will advocate for the higher grade.
I would also like to remind you that you don't even know if you lost the points, so this convo is beyond neurotic
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The weird thing about this story to me is that I have never heard of a chem lab being graded based on the results. My labs were always graded based on following and documenting the progress. Even if our yield came out to like 56% they just wanted us to come up with some reasons as to why that might be the case.
That is pretty high stakes for a group of people that by definition are running this experiment/process for the first time. Do other people's schools do this?
That is pretty high stakes for a group of people that by definition are running this experiment/process for the first time. Do other people's schools do this?
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What we are all trying to point out is that other things are more important than those 5 pts even if you end up with a B. You already got dinged for grade grubbing in the prior regrade attempt on a report. Just let it go. Next time if you're desperate for points, work faster and finish before the deadline with time to clean up.
You just don't have a case here. If you'd finished well before the deadline and got docked for lateness, then okay. That's not the case. Speed counts in chemistry. I came out of my first analytical chem exam upset b/c I hadn't even gotten to the last page of the exam before time was called. That had never happened before in other classes but this prof really wanted to stress time management and efficiency and told the class why they are important for analytical chem. We all had to just suck it up, practice more, learn to work faster and always put everything down when time was called.
There are prob reasons your lab has the time deadline. The TA prob has to look over results, lock up, get you guys out of there, reset for next lab, etc. if you lost points for not being fully finished and cleaned up and back at your station by that deadline, that's on you, even if it feels unfair or feels like you were taking the better approach. Asking for those pts back is essentially asking for special treatment. If you finished 5 min early and lost points, fine, but you weren't 100% done at deadline. Just learn from this and work a little faster next time, pay more attention to timing and balance that with attention to precision in the procedure. That's part of what you're learning in lab.
The deal is this: You got the grade you earned. It is possible some other person in your class accidentally didn't lose points for something that he maybe should've. You don't know for sure, maybe the TA thought it glowed long enough, etc. Regardless of what the other kid did or didn't get, you still got the score you earned, so don't fight it. If you end up with a B it's because you earned a B.
We're also all trying to point out that some of the intangible skills like being easy to work with, being able to let go of little things, being part of a team, being able to accept occasional unfairness, being punctual, being able to accept (small) losses and learn from them, playing well with others, etc, all matter. A lot.
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At my school, not for gen chem or o chem labs at the intro level but yes for other labs. I'm in analytical chem right now and we're graded on precision and accuracy. We have to be precise to the parts per thousands. It's tough! One time, one trial was off by a bit so it threw off the avg and the std dev for that experiment. It was one trial for one (of two) experiment that was slightly off and I got 7/10 for that day. Oh well.
I wrote up a lengthier response but decided not to post it since I don't feel like debating the ethics of this situation with others. In short, though, I agree with @efle that personality shouldn't factor into grades. I can also say that I don't think fighting for points is wrong at all in many cases. I remember @allantois posting once about how in some pre-req labs he'd argue for points that he lost with the TA and often get them back or something like that - not sure if he should be chastised by some of you too for wanting A's in labs. 
Every grade counts when you're pre-med, honestly. I just feel like some people have been too hard on the OP possibly.
However, after thinking through it I agree that at this point, there's really no point in arguing over this with the TA. Clearly you guys are already on rough terms; arguing that the other guy got the points undeservedly really isn't going to go over well. I would compare this situation to a sunk cost, OP - there's probably nothing you can do at this point to smooth things over with this TA, so you should basically just avoid crossing her any more than you have to from now on. The situation is what it is at this point. Calling her out, should she choose to dock five points for your being late, will only add fuel to the fire. You, however, probably should've known that the lab wasn't going so hot a month or so ago and adjusted your focus to dominating the lecture to compensate for the lab. And it may be that the TA is more worried about your getting out on time than she is about your getting a certain percent yield. In any case, I would just put up with her as well as you can. I also liked @bee17's advice, and would encourage you to listen to it.
Every grade counts when you're pre-med, honestly. I just feel like some people have been too hard on the OP possibly.However, after thinking through it I agree that at this point, there's really no point in arguing over this with the TA. Clearly you guys are already on rough terms; arguing that the other guy got the points undeservedly really isn't going to go over well. I would compare this situation to a sunk cost, OP - there's probably nothing you can do at this point to smooth things over with this TA, so you should basically just avoid crossing her any more than you have to from now on. The situation is what it is at this point. Calling her out, should she choose to dock five points for your being late, will only add fuel to the fire. You, however, probably should've known that the lab wasn't going so hot a month or so ago and adjusted your focus to dominating the lecture to compensate for the lab. And it may be that the TA is more worried about your getting out on time than she is about your getting a certain percent yield. In any case, I would just put up with her as well as you can. I also liked @bee17's advice, and would encourage you to listen to it.
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I wrote up a lengthier response but decided not to post it since I don't feel like debating the ethics of this situation with others. In short, though, I agree with @efle that personality shouldn't factor into grades. I can also say that I don't think fighting for points is wrong at all in many cases. I remember @allantois posting once about how in some pre-req labs he'd argue for points that he lost with the TA and often get them back or something like that - not sure if he should be chastised by some of you too for wanting A's in labs.
However, after thinking through it I agree that at this point, there's really no point in arguing over this with the TA. Clearly you guys are already on rough terms; arguing that the other guy got the points undeservedly really isn't going to go over well. I would compare this situation to a sunk cost, OP - there's probably nothing you can do at this point to smooth things over with this TA, so you should basically just avoid crossing her any more than you have to from now on. The situation is what it is at this point. Calling her out, should she choose to dock five points for your being late, will only add fuel to the fire. You, however, probably should've known that the lab wasn't going so hot a month or so ago and adjusted your focus to dominating the lecture to compensate for the lab. And it may be that the TA is more worried about your getting out on time than she is about your getting a certain percent yield. In any case, I would just put up with her as well as you can. I also liked @bee17's advice, and would encourage you to listen to it.
Meh. What really matters is the calculated average, so even when losing 5-10 points in many to all assignments, as long as the calculated average is an A according to the syllabus grade scheme, it's all good. And this is assuming it is pre-curved/not curved.
I didn't encourage the OP to argue over the 5 points.
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I know but i was saying that the idea that "every single point/grade/etc. matters" isn't really/always true.
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I appreciate the responses, even the most critical ones. The thing is, I wouldn't be so caught up in a rut about this if she hadn't given that special treatment to the other kid. I mean...with a rather, superstitious and fatalistic perspective one could wonder why I walked in on the kid and the professor (this is the HEAD professor) doing their chemilumensence part of the experiment, during which he didn't get the full glow and the professor had to explain that he used too much acid or something that effected his glowing result; or why I just so happen to run into the kid and he told me he got full credit...It just really snapped a nerve in me because I was really stressed out about the whole thing.
It's just a matter of me weighing what has a priority? Finishing, maybe 30 seconds over time? or not actually getting the full blown reaction.
It's just a matter of me weighing what has a priority? Finishing, maybe 30 seconds over time? or not actually getting the full blown reaction.
Sure. I would concede that. But if you can get those points you might as well, no? I guess it would depend on the particular grading scheme being used, though, admittedly. In some cases it might be okay to just let those points slide, especially if you're doing well in the lecture component.
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Even in quant lab? Where it's literally "quantitative"?
What major are you? Freshman? (No offense - I'm dead serious).
If some kid tells me they have 130% yield - I'd be like - are you stupid? And then read the **** out of their analysis.
Thing is, it doesn't matter what you think should be prioritized. What is being prioritized by the professor and the TAs is what should be your focus. If they want you to get out on time mostly then that's probably why the other kid got full credit, especially since he may have understood perfectly well why he didn't get his to glow as long. The situation where the professor was explaining why his didn't glow so long, by the way, is incredibly common in labs like this; why wouldn't the professor explain why the yield wasn't good? Seems like you're being a bit arrogant here in assuming that your way of doing things was superior and should deserve more credit.
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And you believed him? Are you sure he wasn't yanking your chain?
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I've TA'ed for OChem lab for several semesters. I've talked to both the head of our chem department about this and those at a number of other schools, mostly out of curiosity as much as anything. I know of very few if any schools that actually grade someones accuracy in the performance of their ochem lab. And if they do, it is a marginal component of the grade or any docking of points is minor and for extreme cases or egregious mistakes. Note upper level chem courses are different. Furthermore, I really don't know many programs that give "lab practical" finals that test you solely on following a procedure in a given amount of time. The final exam at the bare minimum is often also a written component if not usually only written.
While I'm not saying this is for sure what happened here you'll see many situations on SDN of people both exaggerating the difficulty of their classes and/or not providing a complete picture. It's kind of like how everybody on SDN likes to brag or whine about the one class they had where their professor was a dick and only gave 5-10% A's for the entire class or had some unreasonable grading policy or test policy, ignoring all the others which make up the vast majority where the grading scale was perfectly fair. Not that many professors would be able to keep up policies where 5% of a class got A's semester after semester in a pre-req.
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I finished undergrad years ago and am almost done with an M.S. Don't be dick.
Even in analytical chem it was always framed more as "explain how you may have messed up" rather than "your yield is poor you fail". The point of taking a class is that you are not already a chemist...
You're telling me at your school if some "kid" in organic chem 1 makes a mistake on step 2 of a 2 hour lab and it screws up his % yield at the end, they fail for the day? That is absurd.
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If I ever end up in med school, I hope people like you don't end up being my classmates.
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Now sure, I get it, perhaps there's a 'principle' at stake and so it is your values, not desire for a better grade, that motivates you to seek recompense. But let's be honest and embrace that notion for what it is: a rationalization of why you feel you are entitled to those 5 points. But are you really entitled to those 5 points? The answer: you are not.
Conversely, perhaps you openly acknowledge this is a self-serving desire for a better grade. That's fine, everyone in life seeks to serve the self, even if in order to do so, one does good for others (IE., 'selfish altruism'). What's best in this situation is to realize that it's just 5 points. Life moves on. You are more than just a grade on a transcript.
Reminds me of when I lost 5 points on a take-home biochemistry II exam. The test was due at 1:30, when lab began, and I showed up 5 minutes late. I had finished the exam the day before, so it wasn't as if I were rushing to complete the test last minute. So why was I late? I had to drive to class that day (apartment was not too far from campus, but far enough) and there was a random accident on the road right in front of my school.
My fault? No. Does that matter? Not at all. Did losing these 5 points drastically alter the course of my life in a negative way? It's had no effect on me at all.
You'll be better off in the long run if you learn to 'live and let live' when it comes to insignificant things like a few lost points on a lab practical.
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Uh... I didn't say fail. Quant lab at my school had 60% of their grade based on their result. It's only realistic. Who's going to hire someone who gets a 40% yield?
I'm not being a dick (at least not right now) - I did say "no offense".
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1. No one is going to "hire" a college sophomore and if someone does hire someone right out of college they will either be subordinate to someone with much more extensive training or will receive much more extensive training. They will also have access to a much higher quality environment than a random orgo II lab setting.
2. When someone says "no offense", it is generally because they are saying something presumptive and/or offensive.
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no offense, but (almost) all every sentence that starts with "no offense" ends up being a dick move.
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Well. Grow a tougher skin. Medical world is more of a dick.
Having poor yield usually indicates not following direction (possible bad luck). You calculate yield all the way through senior year and beyond. I calculated yield all the time on the job.
Having poor yield usually indicates not following direction (possible bad luck). You calculate yield all the way through senior year and beyond. I calculated yield all the time on the job.
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Play nice please
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Here's my spiel as a TA. I would never go out of my way to intentionally hinder a student's progress both academically and professionally. If it were a student who acts professionally and cordially with both teaching staff and fellow students, 30 seconds would be easy for me to overlook. I believe this was the professor's intent with the student who had less than ideal results.
I think you would benefit from some introspection in two ways: 1. how you approach your relationships with TAs and faculty (using "bitch" to describe her doesn't shine positively here) 2. how you appraise the gravity of an academic situation with regards to registering a complaint.
I think you would benefit from some introspection in two ways: 1. how you approach your relationships with TAs and faculty (using "bitch" to describe her doesn't shine positively here) 2. how you appraise the gravity of an academic situation with regards to registering a complaint.
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lol, it's funny where this convo is going. All I can say is I learned a lot from this experience, and the constructive criticism was really useful.
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I know this isn't really gonna help, because either way I called her a bitch. But...I copied and pasted my opening post from a forum in which such language was commonly used. I wouldn't have posted those words on a medical forum with a more professional audience and atmosphere.
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God can we put this on every syllabus please.
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None of this really matters. When you're in a course where you probably have >500 points, these 5 points really mean nothing. Stop being a gunner. You'll find it that with this sort of mentality, you'll burn bridges with your professors and have a hard time to get LOR's. Deadlines are deadlines. Tough nuts, get used to it. If you submit a budget proposal to your boss 5 minutes late then you'll get dinged. If you come to work 5 minutes late, then you get dinged. Learn how to manage time better. I get if you're arguing a valid point (i.e, the professor's answer was factually incorrect), but this is silly.
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I have a brief and sort of relevant story that might be of help to you OP.
There was a student in one of my bio classes that very much fit the description you gave of yourself. He would constantly scrap for points on his labs and exams, which drove the professor insane. Not surprisingly, this professor shared her thoughts with her faculty-friends. His reputation thus preceded him and before he even walked in the door to his classes the next semester he was at a disadvantage. His reputation alone cost him research opportunities and resulted in very poor recommendation letters from faculty that, truth be told, he really wasn't all that bad to.
Don't be this guy, OP. It's going to hurt you with relationships you couldn't even imagine this effecting.
There was a student in one of my bio classes that very much fit the description you gave of yourself. He would constantly scrap for points on his labs and exams, which drove the professor insane. Not surprisingly, this professor shared her thoughts with her faculty-friends. His reputation thus preceded him and before he even walked in the door to his classes the next semester he was at a disadvantage. His reputation alone cost him research opportunities and resulted in very poor recommendation letters from faculty that, truth be told, he really wasn't all that bad to.
Don't be this guy, OP. It's going to hurt you with relationships you couldn't even imagine this effecting.
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Having been in at least one similar situation before, my respectful suggestion is to suck it up and finish earlier next time. Life isn't fair.
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Ignoring the cognitive dissonance here, there's late and there's not late, and that's about it. In the real world, the only words and fact that matter are bolded — everything else is a qualification (at best), or an excuse (at worst). Personally, I hope you get the 5 points, but if you don't it's also totally justified because they were likely people who did the lab right and correctly planned the wrap up to be on time (whether in your section or not).
Just take the resounding advice already here in this thread and think of the bright side: 5 points probably won't change your overall grade and it's a cheap way to learn a lesson that will surely be of more importance later.
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In this instance life is fair. Given a fair time limit that OP decided was better used trying to get points on glewing while sacrificing point on getting **** done on time. Welcome to the professional world where deadlines have to be met.
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^This^This^This, and then uh, ^This.
Learned that a long time ago in a Microbio class. It all seemed like a very nice, innocent question re: something on an exam. Have no idea what it was about, but I think I used the word ambiguous. LOL Ut OH. I thought the professor was going to have an MI. Seriously I was truly scared for him. After I realized he was gonna be all right, I went into the ladies' room and has a good, brief cry. I was like 20. I got over it and so did the professor. LOL.
My brother, who was a chem engineer major said, "You have to learn that the profs are like God; so don't piss them off." LOL True dat.
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LOL do you know what the subjective grading is like in 3rd and 4th year of medical school?
