I'm not sure for Puerto Rican schools, but the HBCUs account for a quarter of the African American population. So I would say yeah.
Should I do this?
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Totally agree with you there. It's much easier to get in as a URM than a non-URM. Lower GPAs and lower MCATs can still get you into the UC's, which are notoriously difficult to get into for state schools.
I've seen the #s at UC's. Also, see Prop 209. Hence, the UCs have very low URM enrollment. And don't let the MSAR fool you with UCLA, most of the URMs that go there are actually Drew students.
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Why are US HBCU medical school averages so low then?
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Prop 209...no comment.
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"Black" is a figment of your imagination.
You already have your mind made up. Goodluck with your application. Hopefully you'll change your views in med school.
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Okay I don't know much about the American URM system, but with the Canadian medical school admissions process, it is a FACT that those who can claim rural status (regardless if they are "disadvatanged" or not..ex. my friend was well-off but lived in the country; good family business) are allowed to apply with lower cut-offs and indeed do get in with lower cut-offs. I would assume something similar happens with URM applicants in the States. It's not shameful or wrong to claim URM status if indeed you are URM. It's shameful to try to debate that URM applicants do not enter ON AVERAGE with lower stats. (I'm not targeting flaahless in this because I think he has shown to be a very polite and smart young man. I'm just stating my opinion in general.)
Because most applicants with competitive numbers go to other schools.
wait the freaking national AVERAGE is a 3.7?!? shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii...screwed...man i remember when anything above a 3.5 was considered really competitive...
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His stats are above the average for people who matriculate. That implies that, assuming he applied to a fair amount of schools he should have received at least one acceptance and probably some waitlists. The fact that he has been rejected everywhere he has applied is unusual to me. This board is full of people with lower stats (URM and non-URM) and multiple acceptances.
My opinion: There's something else going on here. It may be that he's from a competitive state, but then that's the problem. But I don't think what's holding him back is his ethnicity/nationality.
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OP,
njbmd's response is spot on.
I of course have not seen your application, but from what you describe, your application isn't bad...but it may just be "ordinary" so there's nothing that makes you stand out among other equal applicants. everyone applying these days has generally good numbers, several ECs, a stint in the Peace Corp or other international mission, and a paper in the works...all the while running 3 clubs, teaching inner city kids English, etc.
You may not have applied to a broad enough range of schools, or your letters were mediocre, or your Personal statement didn't move your screener to want to meet you. (oh and People, don't go getting letters from a professor who didn't even know you just because you got an A in his course...those letters are by far the worst ones read in applicant packets!)
I'm doubtful retaking the MCAT will be of any real significance (1,2, or 3 point increases don't mean all that much and of course there's the always real possibility the score drops)
And you may not want to immediately reapply this cycle. If you do, you should pretty much save your money and not re-send your application to the schools that just rejected you since your application will not have changed much, with the exception being the race box. and sure you may get interviewed, but savvy interviewers and adcom officers will pick this up and you'll pretty much be in the same situation you find yourself now.
you need to find something to make your application more enticing...take some time off, work in a research setting, or pursue an advance degree, work/study abroad, something. take 2 or 3 years. then reapply and see what happens.
good luck.
njbmd's response is spot on.
I of course have not seen your application, but from what you describe, your application isn't bad...but it may just be "ordinary" so there's nothing that makes you stand out among other equal applicants. everyone applying these days has generally good numbers, several ECs, a stint in the Peace Corp or other international mission, and a paper in the works...all the while running 3 clubs, teaching inner city kids English, etc.
You may not have applied to a broad enough range of schools, or your letters were mediocre, or your Personal statement didn't move your screener to want to meet you. (oh and People, don't go getting letters from a professor who didn't even know you just because you got an A in his course...those letters are by far the worst ones read in applicant packets!)
I'm doubtful retaking the MCAT will be of any real significance (1,2, or 3 point increases don't mean all that much and of course there's the always real possibility the score drops)
And you may not want to immediately reapply this cycle. If you do, you should pretty much save your money and not re-send your application to the schools that just rejected you since your application will not have changed much, with the exception being the race box. and sure you may get interviewed, but savvy interviewers and adcom officers will pick this up and you'll pretty much be in the same situation you find yourself now.
you need to find something to make your application more enticing...take some time off, work in a research setting, or pursue an advance degree, work/study abroad, something. take 2 or 3 years. then reapply and see what happens.
good luck.
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So what you're trying to say is that URMs really don't have much lower entering statistics as the rest of the population, and that it just is a skewed statistic due to HBCUs being partial to African Americans (with lower numbers)?
Yet, not to be offensive, but in your own case you have lower statistics than the average (quite close to the before-mentioned URM stats) and you've been offered three full-rides to three different medical schools?
Why don't they give them to the URMs that have the numbers closer to the actual schools' averages?
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That was, more or less, my point.
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cultural background would be much more useful in determining the context of an applicant's life and potential for adding diversity to the class IMO. attaching a one word descriptor as a proxy is inefficient at best.
in my case, "first generation of non-native English speaking blue collar European immigrants who came with nothing yet managed to do the whole 'bootstraps' thing and make it."
OP-there's been a lot of good advice given already. i doubt that changing your URM status would be all that beneficial. i'm your stat twin and am doing just fine. make sure you've got all parts of your app under control. it's far more likely that you have insufficient ecs, bad LORs, poorly written personal statement, or the like.
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There is no reason why you wouldn't be able to legitimately claim African American status. North Africa is as African as South Africa. You are "African," simply put. Now, the only problem that could potentially come into play is if someone suggested that you weren't "black" enough. I, personally, would think that would be quite gutsy and audacious for an adcom to make such a claim--who are they to tell you are not black enough? is there some objective criterion that qualifies you as a black? no, it's largely self-determined--but it could happen, you never know.
The whole system of distinguishing races is so arbitrary and random though that I don't much stock at them at all. Apparently Asians extend from Japan to India, Europeans from Iceland to Iran, so I don't see why Africans can't extend from Morocco to South Africa.
Oh, and OP, while I think you could claim to be a minority, I don't think it's advisable in your situation, since you've already applied in your prior years as something else. That just sounds like you're trying to dupe them now, come on now?
The whole system of distinguishing races is so arbitrary and random though that I don't much stock at them at all. Apparently Asians extend from Japan to India, Europeans from Iceland to Iran, so I don't see why Africans can't extend from Morocco to South Africa.
Oh, and OP, while I think you could claim to be a minority, I don't think it's advisable in your situation, since you've already applied in your prior years as something else. That just sounds like you're trying to dupe them now, come on now?
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This
It's not about whether it is right or wrong. It just is what it is. Factual data should not be offensive.For the OP, I think it's too late to change now. Find out what's wrong with your app and fix it. Some great suggestions already have been given (admissions advisor, etc.) Also, you should probably apply to a TON of schools next cycle (after fixing your app) and then attend interviews with the idea that THIS school is the one for you because you like blah blah blah about it...and really put that idea across!
DON'T retake the MCAT! Your score is more than acceptable.
Some schools (particular your state schools) look favorably on reapplicants who have improved their applications, because reapplication often shows tenacity and determination. Try to get an appointment with the Deans of your state schools (or other schools where you should have had a good chance) and let them know the reasons for your strong desire to enter medicine and attend their schools. Ask for their suggestions on your app, then DO THOSE THINGS that they suggest. Follow up with them around August or September of next year and tell them you have followed their suggestions and hope they will consider you this year.
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Sorry, to hijack this thread with this question, but since were on the discussion of Black/African American technicalities. I grew up in a very diverse underserved neighborhood, where I was one of the few white kids...my closest friends prefer to be called Black and not African American (which they think is white man's academic term). So when it came to writing secondary essays regarding cultural competence, diversity, and the like I used the word, "Black" (with a capital B). I went back and forth on what was politically correct and what might piss someone on an admissions committee off and even googled searched what was the most politically correct. I finally decided on Black with a capital B because when talking about race back home in my childhood community that's what is used. Can any of you comment on this? (particularly those who are Black).
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My husband is a black African and he finds it offensive to call Black Americans African because there is zero in common between the groups aside from a distant shared ancestry.
I don't claim to know any more about it than that. I have black friends but have never really had in depth discussions about their "blackness". We all grew up in the same environment, so I never really thought there was anything all that different.
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Wow, thanks for all the advice, guys. I'm going to carefully consider everything before I decide. Anyway, here's more info that will answer some of the questions you guys have...
My state is CA, so my state schools are the damn UC's. There's also Stanford, Loma Linda and SC. I applied to 15 schools this cycle. I did go on interviews, but some schools flat-out rejected me post-secondary. One school has yet to even send me a secondary so I assume that's a rejection. I have only 2 schools left to hear from, but at this point, I'm not optimistic. I don't think my PS is bad, but I guess, it's not that unique. I had it critiqued so I thought it was ok. I didn't see my LOR's, but they are from professors that know me (I worked in the lab of one), from a doctor that I shadowed and from my volunteering activities so I hope that they didn't screw me over with their LOR's.
My state is CA, so my state schools are the damn UC's. There's also Stanford, Loma Linda and SC. I applied to 15 schools this cycle. I did go on interviews, but some schools flat-out rejected me post-secondary. One school has yet to even send me a secondary so I assume that's a rejection. I have only 2 schools left to hear from, but at this point, I'm not optimistic. I don't think my PS is bad, but I guess, it's not that unique. I had it critiqued so I thought it was ok. I didn't see my LOR's, but they are from professors that know me (I worked in the lab of one), from a doctor that I shadowed and from my volunteering activities so I hope that they didn't screw me over with their LOR's.
So I should just accept the name that oppressive american society has given me and call myself black? What about colored? Negro work for you?My husband is a black African and he finds it offensive to call Black Americans African because there is zero in common between the groups aside from a distant shared ancestry.
The term African American was coined in the sixties by a group of UCLA and Cal students who wanted autonomy in naming themselves, rather than being called Black 9which has a slew of negative connotations). Look up black in the dictionary:
Soiled or stained with dirt.
Deliberately; harmful; inexcusable
Boding ill; sullen or hostile; threatening
without any moral quality or goodness; evil; wicked:
The list goes on...
Anyways, it's not like my ancestors collectively decided to immigrate to the States circa the 16th century, become acculturated to western civilization and distance themselves from their original culture on purpose. I'm sorry your husband finds it offensive. It's unfortunate but how else can I identify myself? Black? Never. Slave progeny? Possibly. African American? I'll stick with that one for now.
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I see your point but perhaps he had other things on his application, like exceptional community service or something, that qualified him for the full rides or he is doing primary care, it could be a result of a number of things
Yeah. The term African American originated in about 1969 by young college students who wanted to have the authority and power to name themselves. They no longer wanted to be called Negro, Colored, Black or Boy because they felt those names were thrust upon them by the opressive american society of the time.
African American was first used at UCLA by students who believed in Pan Africanism and felt that although they had been physically separated from their homeland, they could still remain connected spiritually, emotionally, politically etc. However, since no one knew exactly which country or civilization their ancestors came from, they left the term as a general African American, rather than Nigerian American for example. The term did not please everyone. Some people applauded it as us having the autonomy to name ourselves, and others rejected it.
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why?
of course of course
Man, you don't know anything about me so please quit with the conjecture. And I have three scholarships, not three full-rides. Last I checked, I didn't receive my scholarships for my numbers, I got them for passion, overcoming difficult obstacles in life and my service to the hood. So why give them up to someone with higher numbers if I didn't receive them for those reasons?
Anyways, I'll post a quote from someone who has ACTUALLY seen my application. An MS4 who is on the UCSD admissions committee wrote:
"The URM card will be worthless for UCSD because it does not practice affirmative action. By state law it cannot. There are no quotas. If you have overcome adversity, that will certainly be taken into account.
And again, he has an acceptance to UCSD which does not practice affirmative action.
I am on the adcom and without divulging anything I know about him, I can say that he would be just as successful if he was white. This is not true of all URM applicants."
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Arabs and Indians ARE considered Asian! Believe me...I've checked. Asian can be broken down into many different categories.
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flaahless, where have u been accepted if you dont mind me asking
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I remember this thread too but can't find it. It was an affirmative action rant if I recall correctly. The guy claimed that either he or a friend (can't remember) was from South Africa and so marked African American. When he got to some top 10 interview, they confronted him about it and said he would be rejected for trying to cheat the system. The story seemed exaggerated to me, but my guess is that an adcom would still be put off by what the OP is considering. Like many have said on here, I would ask each individual school.
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Just like division three undergrad schools can't (and don't) give sports scholarships out to prospective athletes?
This has 100% nothing to do with success as a particular race. Two people, same scores, one black one white obviously are equal. My argument is that a black with a 27 and 3.3 probably will not be as successful as a white with a 31 and 3.7. The reverse is also true: a white with a 27 and 3.3 wouldn't as successful as a black with a 31 and 3.7.
But whatever
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click his mdapps!
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I'm not saying you can't call yourself what you want or that historically there isn't a reason behind it. I'm just giving you the opinion of someone that was born in Africa.
As I said earlier, grouping everyone with a particular skin color into the same group is misleading. I'm different than the majority of "whites" I know. I don't have an identity that resulted from my skin being white. I didn't choose it. I prefer to view myself as unique and that who I am developed as a result of my background and experiences, which coincidentally were not influenced by racial turmoil in this country as my ancestors weren't even here at that time nor were they slaveowners.
I've also never chosen to see people in terms of color. Different backgrounds, yes. Thus, it came as a shock to me everyday in Africa that all people could talk about was my "whiteness" or how I was interchangeable with any Canadian, French, English, or German person that they came across.
I think it's unfortunate and quite archaic that we have to "label" ourselves at all.
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What he means is that ethnicity may not be everything, but there is definitely evidence that it helps. The OP is just hoping that a check on the African-American box may be the tipping point.
Man, you already have you mind made up. Goodluck with your application. Congrats on getting accepted in round 2. Hopefully you'll meet an URM with strong "numbers" that will help you to change your attitude.
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1956Goldtop
Flahless, it seems that you have made up your mind as well. I'm not going to take a side on this whole URM thing, but just as the previous posters are hell bent on the fact that being a URM helps, you are hell bent that it doesn't. Either way, both sides of this argument are being thickheaded. The purpose of this thread is not to argue the merits of affirmative action or whether or not it exists. The OP was simply asking for an opinion on whether he would be making a huge mistake by claiming he was African American. Clearly, at this point, the responses have been mixed, but hopefully the OP has found some insight in reading through all of this.
I never said it doesn't help. Some schools actively recruit minority applicants. That's a fact. However, the UC system is prohibited from doing so. Therefore my success with the UCs isn't because of my ethnicity. However, no matter how many adcom members I quote, or how many times I cite prop 209, people will continue to disagree.
And to the OP, claim African American because that is the particular group that you identify with. Don't claim it because you feel it will give you a leg up in the application process. Also, according to prop 209, checking the African American box won't help you with the California schools.
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BTW Flaahless, I have seen your MDapps and all the crap you have had to deal with and I do applaud you for taking it all so tactfully. I hope you did not take my post as an attack, but I was just trying to bring up the fact that it is so easy to become fully entrenched in one side and not seeing it from a holistic perspective. Congrats on all the success you have had though. Based on what you chose to reveal on your MDapps, I do think you are deserving of your success regardless of race or ethnicity.
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Right, geographically they are Asian. But on these applications where they ask for RACE or ETHNICITY, they don't want your geographical origin because it gets messy. Being arab is NOT a nationality so for these purposes, they're considered Caucasian. In that light, African-American means you're black. If you're from South Africa, you probably should check the Caucasian box. It's political, not geographical.
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I understand that this may be the case, but that's stupid (not you, the rule). If that's the case, they should just ask what color you are and be done with it because based on nation of birth, there are certainly White Africans, Black Koreans, and Asian Spaniards.
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Wow...oppressive american society? Anybody who gains acceptance into multiple quality allopathic schools with what might be construed as slightly below-normal stats has little to complain about being disadvantaged or oppressed. How about just the focus on being a top-notch american physician versus further segregating yourself with titles.
I'm irish-french-canadian american, just so everyone knows how to properly address me.
I know nothing of you as a person, and therefore cannot really be an accurate judge. But your posts seem to indicate a slight chip on your shoulder and I ASSURE you that this will be put in check once your medical school education begins.
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So because someone achieved success it means that they automatically had no disadvantages and were not discriminated against? Wow...How about the possibility that he overcame these things to get where he is today? It's easy to say "focus on being a top-notch American physician" without regard to titles, but why shouldn't he address it so that hopefully the next generation doesn't have to overcome anything but undergrad and the MCAT?
You can pretend that there is no discrimination or oppression if you wish - you have that luxury. But those of us who have experienced it (and still do) cannot.
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1956Goldtop
That is absolutely true. I also want to add that I think people tend to overlook that URMs are not the only minorities that suffer at the hands of oppression from contemporary (or historical) American society.
Are you saying that american society hasn't been oppressive? This country was founded on oppression and has overtly perpetuated it until say... 1972, and it still has plenty of oprressive tendencies today.
Also, you have the ability to be called irish-french-canadian-american. What about me? I can't trace my lineage to a particular set of countries, so I use the general term African American rather than black for three reasons.
1. I've embraced it on my own terms
2. I am much more than my melanin content
3. I find the term black to becompletely disrespectful. Just look at a few of the synonyms: atrocious, dismal, horrible, hostile, menacing, unclean, wicked.
Why would I want to be called a word that has so many negative connotations , was used by oppressive slave traders (ie: american society) to define my ancestors, and segregates me according to my skin tone?
I don't think it's a chip, I just think it's respect.
Anyways, you're right, you don't know me or my history. And even though I have been blessed to have some wonderful acceptances, oppression still exists in America.
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Why should we stop at racially-motivated oppression. Oppression can be in nearly any form, and it would be deluding yourself to think that the oppression one may experience because of race is any more severe than that of one based on gender, or weight, or sexual-preference, or economic status. Should I notify each person that I meet I am a white, lower-economic class, formerly over-weight, male from a broken household because I've experienced hardship from each experience?
Please don't even go to the next argument of saying I don't know how it feels to be of _____ background, because I certainly don't. But your experiences with hardship are no greater or lesser than mine because both are entirely experiential. The true test is moving on with your life and seek to find a unifying factor with all those around you, or choosing to segregate yourself and bemoan your existence because of evils done against you.
Either way, there are far too many people taking life far too seriously.
I worry about when they start medical school.
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If the next cycle really is your last shot, I would suggest that you mark yourself as "African Decent" and then briefly explain your dilemma somewhere. I know of some minority programs in California that consider arabs as minorities.
I would spend some solid time on that para to make sure you represent yourself in a positive light.
I would spend some solid time on that para to make sure you represent yourself in a positive light.
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I was responding directly to your statement. All discrimination/oppression/bigotry should be eliminated - I'm not playing favorites and I never said that one person's trials was more than another's. You can notify anyone of whatever you wish - in fact, when applying to medical school, you are given a personal statement where you may talk about whatever got you to this point. If your experience with weight, depression, race played a factor, then feel free to discuss it. I assure you the adcoms will take it into consideration when they are making their decisions.
I don't think you get to decide the criteria for passing the "test" of discrimination. Everybody deals with it in their own way. It would be easy to just say, "Well, I made it through, so all fat/Black/Jewish/poor/female people can, too." The problem is that not talking about it leads people to think that there are no barriers to overcome.
I'm actually pretty much done with medical school and have been very successful if I do say so myself, so there goes that theory. Just because I want to fight discrimination doesn't mean I go around waving a Black Panther or wearing NOW pins.
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1956Goldtop
Just for clarification purposes, I thought black was the more PC and in general, more accurate term because not all people that we connote as "african american" are indeed from Africa. For instance, what about black brazillians or black cubans living in America? Isn't it inaccurate to call them African American? Not trying to start a war here, just curious.
Why call them black period? Why not call them Brazilians of African origin?
Fact is, if slavery didn't occur then individuals of African origin would not be collectively referred to as black. They would be delineated according to the country or civilization.
