Should I leave my BS/DO program and apply MD?

[gottagofast]

Hi all,
I have been a part of a 7 year BS/DO program since I was accepted as a senior in HS, but now as I'm approaching the switch from undergrad to medical school, I'm considering leaving the program to apply to MD schools. When I accepted the offer, I was worried I wouldn't do well enough in college to have competitive stats, but now that I'm in my junior year, I have a better picture and now I'm reconsidering my decision. Currently, I have a 3.93 and a 510 MCAT. I lack clinical hours, however, but I do have leadership roles in several organizations, volunteer hours, and a research poster publication. Would you guys consider dropping a DO acceptance and taking the risk of applying MD? I would also lose my chance to graduate early and I'll have to shell out a lot more money. However, I like the option of being able to practice outside the US in my family's country (I'm an ORM) and more open doors to competitive specialties.
Thanks!

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[KnightDoc]

Hi all,
I have been a part of a 7 year BS/DO program since I was accepted as a senior in HS, but now as I'm approaching the switch from undergrad to medical school, I'm considering leaving the program to apply to MD schools. When I accepted the offer, I was worried I wouldn't do well enough in college to have competitive stats, but now that I'm in my junior year, I have a better picture and now I'm reconsidering my decision. Currently, I have a 3.93 and a 510 MCAT. I lack clinical hours, however, but I do have leadership roles in several organizations, volunteer hours, and a research poster publication. Would you guys consider dropping a DO acceptance and taking the risk of applying MD? I would also lose my chance to graduate early and I'll have to shell out a lot more money. However, I like the option of being able to practice outside the US in my family's country (I'm an ORM) and more open doors to competitive specialties.
Thanks!

Bird in the hand! Wasn't that the rationale 3 years ago? What changed? 3.93/510? That's decent, but it's nowhere near a slam dunk for an ORM, where the mean for matriculants is 3.77/513.8, so you shouldn't be so impressed with it that it alters your decision matrix. You are in the exact same position you were in 3 years ago.

What's more important -- graduating early and not shelling out a lot more money, or having a shot, but no guarantee, to be a MD? Only one person can answer that, and it's not any of us! Good luck!!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Hi all,
I have been a part of a 7 year BS/DO program since I was accepted as a senior in HS, but now as I'm approaching the switch from undergrad to medical school, I'm considering leaving the program to apply to MD schools. When I accepted the offer, I was worried I wouldn't do well enough in college to have competitive stats, but now that I'm in my junior year, I have a better picture and now I'm reconsidering my decision. Currently, I have a 3.93 and a 510 MCAT. I lack clinical hours, however, but I do have leadership roles in several organizations, volunteer hours, and a research poster publication. Would you guys consider dropping a DO acceptance and taking the risk of applying MD? I would also lose my chance to graduate early and I'll have to shell out a lot more money. However, I like the option of being able to practice outside the US in my family's country (I'm an ORM) and more open doors to competitive specialties.
Thanks!

Are you allowed to convert to 4 year UG and apply out without losing your guaranteed DO? For an ORM, 510 is not a really a competitive score for MD and you lack clinical hours and adcoms will tell you research is overrated.

 

[KnightDoc]

Are you allowed to convert to 4 year UG and apply out without losing your guaranteed DO? For an ORM, 510 is not a really a competitive score for MD and you lack clinical hours and adcoms will tell you research is overrated.

If so, would OP have said "I'm approaching the switch from undergrad to medical school, I'm considering leaving the program to apply to MD schools. ... Would you guys consider dropping a DO acceptance and taking the risk of applying MD?"?

Since you're somewhat of an expert on these programs, do many of them allow you to convert 3 years UG to 4 AND keep your guarantee while applying out? That seems to subvert every reason behind offering the programs in the first place.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Since you're somewhat of an expert on these programs, do many of them allow you to convert 3 years UG to 4 AND keep your guarantee while applying out? That seems to subvert every reason behind offering the program in the first place.

You know I have N=1 for every scenario! I know one program and one is applying in current cycle.

 

[KnightDoc]

You know I have N=1 for every scenario! I know one program and one is applying in current cycle.

One program where they allow conversion from 3 years to 4 AND allow you to apply out while keeping guarantee? If so, which one????

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

One program where they allow conversion from 3 years to 4 AND allow you to apply out while keeping guarantee? If so, which one????

Can't tell you since that student applied current cycle.

 

[KnightDoc]

Can't tell you since that student applied current cycle.

What does that have to do with publicly identifying a school that has a 7 year program that allows conversion to 8 years and applying out while keeping a guarantee. Is it a big secret? Wouldn't that be a recruiting feature for the school? Is whoever you know the only person who ever did it? Have they identified themselves here so that their anonymity will be violated by you saying which school offers such an option?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

What does that have to do with publicly identifying a school that has a 7 year program that allows conversion to 8 years and applying out while keeping a guarantee. Is it a big secret? Wouldn't that be a recruiting feature for the school? Is whoever you know the only person who ever did it? Have they identified themselves here so that their anonymity will be violated by you saying which school offers such an option?

You know these programs are typically small and very few apply out, so by naming the school I may be revealing too much. Anyway, you don't need the details. If OP has such a possibility he will let us know.

 

[KnightDoc]

You know these programs are typically small and very few apply out, so by naming the school I may be revealing too much. Anyway, you don't need the details. If OP has such a possibility he will let us know.

I'm sure OP doesn't have the option. That was the point of my initial response to you!

I just really wanted to know which school offers this option. You can DM me if you don't want to reveal publicly, but I don't understand why it would be a secret, unless your friend has already outed him or herself by providing all details here other than the name of the school. Even so, anonymity still wouldn't be breached. No matter how small the program is, unless your friend is the only person applying MD from the school, who would be able to connect the dots, unless your friend announces on the app that they are applying out from a direct program?

Revealing the school would only be revealing the school -- it wouldn't be identifying any applicant, since, presumably, your friend wouldn't be stupid enough to announce to adcoms that s/he already has a guaranteed acceptance that is being shopped.

 

[Cheezin]

One program where they allow conversion from 3 years to 4 AND allow you to apply out while keeping guarantee? If so, which one????

FAU does that

 

[KnightDoc]

FAU does that

From their website:

"With the approval, students may opt to delay their entry to medical school by one year to broaden their education or personal experiences prior to entering medical school. This fourth year option is available only to students in good standing (3.7 or higher GPA). The fourth year option is not available to make up any MCAT, GPA, or coursework deficiencies. To request an extension of the undergraduate curriculum, students must present a clear, written plan of what they plan to accomplish during the additional year. In no case may students delay their entry to the College of Medicine by more than one year.

The Medical Scholars Program is a “restricted” program. This means that students in the program may not apply to any other LCME accredited medical schools without permission. Students who do apply to other medical schools without permission will lose their conditional acceptance at the FAU College of Medicine (FAUCOM) and must apply as a regular applicant."

I wonder what determines whether or not you receive permission? Also, since they don't let you convert from 3 years to 4 to make up coursework or retake the MCAT, I'd be willing to be they don't let you do it so you can apply out! That's probably not what they mean by "broaden their education or personal experiences prior to entering medical school"

 

[deleted1066189]

and more open doors to competitive specialties.

What specialties are you thinking of?

 

[gottagofast]

Hi all —
To be fair, I had really low expectations for my GPA and MCAT, so even scoring 510 was surprising. I’m well aware my scores aren’t a slam dunk, but they’re not the sub 505 I was expecting (I meant competitive as in they’re not too below average.) It’s the fact that my MCAT isn’t amazing, as you guys pointed out, which is giving me pause. If I had a 525 I would be a lot less reluctant. Is the chance with my current stats not high enough to be worth the risk? I guess I’m really asking if the risk is low enough to attempt it.
I understand not naming the school, I have only a couple of classmates in my program as well. With that being said, yes, I would lose my spot at the osteopathic school.

 

[gottagofast]

What specialties are you thinking of?

I’m most interested in surgery and I really did not like my experiences with primary care, unlike what most DO schools push. I’ve developed a new interest in plastics after I had some work done over the summer.

The merger is another one of my concerns. Getting a pass from a DO school seems to be less attractive than an MD school.

 

[Doctoscope]

I think it's fine to shoot your shot for MD as long as you leaving the BS/DO program doesn't put you in any "bitter spot" with osteopathic schools. Your stats are competitive enough to score a DO spot on its own (as long as you have the proper ECs).

You do need to get some clinical time in the next academic year though.

In the grand scheme of things, spending a couple of years to build your app really isn't that much time.

 

[gottagofast]

I think it's fine to shoot your shot for MD as long as you leaving the BS/DO program doesn't put you in any "bitter spot" with osteopathic schools. Your stats are competitive enough to score a DO spot on its own (as long as you have the proper ECs).

You do need to get some clinical time in the next academic year though.

In the grand scheme of things, spending a couple of years to build your app really isn't that much time.

Yeah, I’m desperate for clinical hours I do love my osteopathic school, so I hope there would be no bad blood, but I didn’t think of that, thanks for pointing it out. I’d start medical school at 20 in my program, so a few years is not a bad cost.

 

[candbgirl]

I think it's fine to shoot your shot for MD as long as you leaving the BS/DO program doesn't put you in any "bitter spot" with osteopathic schools. Your stats are competitive enough to score a DO spot on its own (as long as you have the proper ECs).

You do need to get some clinical time in the next academic year though.

In the grand scheme of things, spending a couple of years to build your app really isn't that much time.

If he plans to spend a couple of years building his application. It doesn’t sound like that is his plan though.
OP only just over 40% of all applicants are accepted every cycle. ( Of that 40% about half receive only one acceptance). This means about 57% of all applicants are rejected each cycle. This includes applicants with near perfect applications. Only you can decide if it’s worth the risk to give up a sure thing for around a 40% chance after you put in the work to build your application to meet the expectations of ADCOMS.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Hi all —
To be fair, I had really low expectations for my GPA and MCAT, so even scoring 510 was surprising. I’m well aware my scores aren’t a slam dunk, but they’re not the sub 505 I was expecting (I meant competitive as in they’re not too below average.) It’s the fact that my MCAT isn’t amazing, as you guys pointed out, which is giving me pause. If I had a 525 I would be a lot less reluctant. Is the chance with my current stats not high enough to be worth the risk? I guess I’m really asking if the risk is low enough to attempt it.
I understand not naming the school, I have only a couple of classmates in my program as well. With that being said, yes, I would lose my spot at the osteopathic school.

Unless you really don't like your DO program or it's too expensive, I think you are better of staying in the program.

 

[HopeP]

I guess I’m really asking if the risk is low enough to attempt it.

Well you are probably stuck on same risk averse situation you were 3 years back when applying from high school, your stats as well as ECs hasn't moved the needle yet.

 

[Cheezin]

From their website:

"With the approval, students may opt to delay their entry to medical school by one year to broaden their education or personal experiences prior to entering medical school. This fourth year option is available only to students in good standing (3.7 or higher GPA). The fourth year option is not available to make up any MCAT, GPA, or coursework deficiencies. To request an extension of the undergraduate curriculum, students must present a clear, written plan of what they plan to accomplish during the additional year. In no case may students delay their entry to the College of Medicine by more than one year.

The Medical Scholars Program is a “restricted” program. This means that students in the program may not apply to any other LCME accredited medical schools without permission. Students who do apply to other medical schools without permission will lose their conditional acceptance at the FAU College of Medicine (FAUCOM) and must apply as a regular applicant."

I wonder what determines whether or not you receive permission? Also, since they don't let you convert from 3 years to 4 to make up coursework or retake the MCAT, I'd be willing to be they don't let you do it so you can apply out! That's probably not what they mean by "broaden their education or personal experiences prior to entering medical school"

As it stands now I believe people are free to pick 3 or 4 years with no hassle, it just has to be done during freshmen year with discussion with advisors and such. Permission for applying out also seems to be something that is a given. Without going into it too much it's not a big deal between choosing 3 vs 4 years

 

[KnightDoc]

Yeah, I’m desperate for clinical hours I do love my osteopathic school, so I hope there would be no bad blood, but I didn’t think of that, thanks for pointing it out. I’d start medical school at 20 in my program, so a few years is not a bad cost.

"Bad blood"? No such thing. Schools are institutions, not people. They don't take these things personally.

On the other hand, they ARE sensitive with respect to wasting limited admissions resources, aka time spent interviewing, studying files and discussing candidates, on people unlikely to attend. The answer to @DoctoOcto's concern is that, no, turning down your contingent DO acceptance would not be the kind of turning down of an A that would be reportable to other schools, so there would be no issue there.

That said, and despite any n=1 anecdotes to the contrary that anyone on SDN might have, you can very likely kiss your current school goodbye after turning down a guarantee in order to play the field. They are not going to want you only if you can't do better after trying, and will consequently probably not offer you an II, regardless of how great a fit you might otherwise be for their school.

If this were not the case, they'd allow you to apply out without giving up the guarantee, like @EdgeTrimmer's n=1 example, in addition to plenty of other programs that freely allow their students to apply out while keeping their guarantees. Sure, nobody ever prohibits anyone from applying for regular admission, but, if they were inclined to accept you, they'd save themselves the effort and just let you keep your guarantee.

 

[gottagofast]

If he plans to spend a couple of years building his application. It doesn’t sound like that is his plan though.
OP only just over 40% of all applicants are accepted every cycle. ( Of that 40% about half receive only one acceptance). This means about 57% of all applicants are rejected each cycle. This includes applicants with near perfect applications. Only you can decide if it’s worth the risk to give up a sure thing for around a 40% chance after you put in the work to build your application to meet the expectations of ADCOMS.

This is a really good view point and what I was looking for, thank you. Being surrounded by accepted pre-meds has skewed my views too much.
Oh, but I have to clarify, I am a female.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I wouldn’t do that with a gun to my head. You have a guaranteed acceptance of being a doctor. A DO is a doctor. I have colleagues who are orthopaedic surgeons— patients don’t differentiate between me and them.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I wouldn’t do that with a gun to my head. You have a guaranteed acceptance of being a doctor. A DO is a doctor. I have colleagues who are orthopaedic surgeons— patients don’t differentiate between me and them.

How hard is for DOs to match into competitive specialties now a days.

 

[DO2015CA]

Depending on your home state I probably would. You’ve already stated you don’t care much for primary care and prefer surgery. It’s just plain easier to match surgery from MD. Especially with all the new schools. You have scores to get into DO if you try MD and fail. It’s a different world than 5-10 years ago

 

[Angus Avagadro]

A 510 mcat is a good score, like 80 %tile. However, it s a little light for many schools and won't wow anybody. A 515 would be better. I think picking a school because you think you will match in one of the most competetive specialties is a mistake. You have no idea how you will perform in med school.Many, and most students change their minds about residency once in school. I'd stay with the DO acceptance.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

A 510 mcat is a good score, like 80 %tile. However, it s a little light for many schools and won't wow anybody. A 515 would be better.

She is an ORM, 510 is probably low.

 

[gottagofast]

Depending on your home state I probably would. You’ve already stated you don’t care much for primary care and prefer surgery. It’s just plain easier to match surgery from MD. Especially with all the new schools. You have scores to get into DO if you try MD and fail. It’s a different world than 5-10 years ago

That's the thing that most people haven't mentioned. I feel like if I don't make MD, I have a decent shot at DO still.

He is an ORM, 510 is probably low.

I'm an Asian female. It's lower than the average Asian matriculant (514), correct.

 

[gottagofast]

A 510 mcat is a good score, like 80 %tile. However, it s a little light for many schools and won't wow anybody. A 515 would be better. I think picking a school because you think you will match in one of the most competetive specialties is a mistake. You have no idea how you will perform in med school.Many, and most students change their minds about residency once in school. I'd stay with the DO acceptance.

That's the thing, it's not spectacular, but it's above DO MCAT averages, which is why I'm reconsidering. It's not that I think I will match into competitive specialties, but I would like to have the option, rather than have it be harder. Also, that's completely true, I may change interests in the next four years.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

How hard is for DOs to match into competitive specialties now a days.

It doesn’t matter— too risky to even assume they’ll be a good match for competitive specialty if they go MD. Most people who enter med school wanting to do competitive specialties change their mind. A lot can change in med school and I’d take the guaranteed medical degree over a potential failure to get one at all.

 

[DNAJB6]

Bird in the hand! Wasn't that the rationale 3 years ago? What changed? 3.93/510?

Step 1 is now P/F

 

[Goro]

The single worst mistake a premed can make is to turn down their only acceptance.

 

[DNAJB6]

Hi all,
I have been a part of a 7 year BS/DO program since I was accepted as a senior in HS, but now as I'm approaching the switch from undergrad to medical school, I'm considering leaving the program to apply to MD schools. When I accepted the offer, I was worried I wouldn't do well enough in college to have competitive stats, but now that I'm in my junior year, I have a better picture and now I'm reconsidering my decision. Currently, I have a 3.93 and a 510 MCAT. I lack clinical hours, however, but I do have leadership roles in several organizations, volunteer hours, and a research poster publication. Would you guys consider dropping a DO acceptance and taking the risk of applying MD? I would also lose my chance to graduate early and I'll have to shell out a lot more money. However, I like the option of being able to practice outside the US in my family's country (I'm an ORM) and more open doors to competitive specialties.
Thanks!

1. Can you apply without ruining the guaranteed DO?
2. How much extra money are we talking about?

 

[DNAJB6]

I wouldn’t do that with a gun to my head. You have a guaranteed acceptance of being a doctor. A DO is a doctor. I have colleagues who are orthopaedic surgeons— patients don’t differentiate between me and them.

Employers, committees deciding tenure or promotion, etc., might. There is definitely bias even among attending physicians. One (I believe an admin) even conceded in a thread here a few years back that he would be weary of referring his family members to a DO unless vetted by an academic medical center. There is also regional variation.

 

[gottagofast]

1. Can you apply without ruining the guaranteed DO?
2. How much extra money are we talking about?

1. I cannot, I have to leave it.
2. I mean, I paid about $300 in my program to submit my primary and secondary. I'd assume I would have to apply to 15 medical schools and the costs of those primaries alone is a lot.

 

[gottagofast]

Employers, committees deciding tenure or promotion, etc., might. There is definitely bias even among attending physicians. One even conceded in a thread here a few years back that he would be weary of referring his family members to a DO unless vetted by an academic medical center. There is also regional variation.

That's the other thing. If I go the BS/DO route, I'll be a 24 yo female doctor. I am wary that people will not take me seriously due to my age and gender, especially with a DO behind my name instead of the more well-known MD. Like I hate the idea of constantly correcting people, no, I'm not a nurse nor unqualified -- I'm a doctor. Every single time. The attitude of the public toward Trump's DO physician was also not great to see.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

It doesn’t matter— too risky to even assume they’ll be a good match for competitive specialty if they go MD. Most people who enter med school wanting to do competitive specialties change their mind. A lot can change in med school and I’d take the guaranteed medical degree over a potential failure to get one at all.

I am aware of that and my recommendation for OP was to stick to DO program. I am curious to know how competitive Ortho is now a days for DO. The Ortho I consulted few years back is a DO Ortho.

 

[deleted1066189]

The attitude of the public toward Trump's DO physician was also not great to see.

Trump's former white house physician, Dr. Ronny Jackson, was also torn apart by the press. And the guy is an MD!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Employers, committees deciding tenure or promotion, etc., might. There is definitely bias even among attending physicians. One (I believe an admin) even conceded in a thread here a few years back that he would be weary of referring his family members to a DO unless vetted by an academic medical center. There is also regional variation.

My spouse (MD) works for one of the largest systems and I don't think they differentiate. On her advice I went to a DO ortho few years back.

 

[DNAJB6]

1. I cannot, I have to leave it.
2. I mean, I paid about $300 in my program to submit my primary and secondary. I'd assume I would have to apply to 15 medical schools and the costs of those primaries alone is a lot.

The money issue is de minimis, but you risk becoming a beaker washer or Uber driver if you leave.

 

[DNAJB6]

Especially with level 1 comlex going p/f

That's pretty much the end for DOs getting in top to upper mid tier residencies no?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

That's the other thing. If I go the BS/DO route, I'll be a 24 yo female doctor. I am wary that people will not take me seriously due to my age and gender, especially with a DO behind my name. The attitude of the public toward Trump's DO physician was also not great to see. When I shadowed an orthopedic surgeon during high school, he urged me to go for traditional over accepting the BS/DO.

I doubt age will be a big factor despite some claiming it to be. My kid (current cycle applicant) is 20 years old (and will be 25 when he gets MD) and he is having an excellent cycle.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

1. I cannot, I have to leave it.
2. I mean, I paid about $300 in my program to submit my primary and secondary. I'd assume I would have to apply to 15 medical schools and the costs of those primaries alone is a lot.

What's the tuition for your DO program?

 

[gottagofast]

I doubt age will be a big factor despite some claiming it to be. My kid (current cycle applicant) is 20 years old (and will be 25 when he gets MD) and he is having an excellent cycle.

To be fair, I'm trying to convey is the fact I will be young and female, with my gender being a bigger issue and my age compounding it. I hope things will change in the future, but the idea of constantly being seen as a nurse (especially to people who don't know what a DO is) seems draining. Doctors are assumed to be men so regardless of his age, your son has that benefit. I'm glad he is having a good cycle.
My tuition is about 44k a year and no scholarships can be given to BS/DOs, not that I am assuming I would qualify for one. Just pointing out my ineligibility.

 

[gottagofast]

Shoot your shot for MD. Worst case scenario is you don't get in and will get LOTS of love from tons of other DO programs (your BS/DO program might take you too). You don't wanna say "What if" 4 years down the line. Especially with level 1 comlex going p/f

For what it's worth I had asian classmates in my SMP who got into MD with 504/3.8 (SMP GPA) and 508/3.9 (SMP), both had 3.1 undergrad GPA. Your undergrad 3.9+ GPA will carry more weight and put you in a better position.

Yea, that's the thing. Shouldn't I be fine for applying to DO schools? Why does me losing my BS/DO acceptance seem to mean I'll be losing my only chance at medical school? Thank you for your input! I've mentioned the P/F thing in a previous comment -- it also makes me worried about the future of DOs.

 

[DNAJB6]

To be fair, I'm trying to convey is the fact I will be young and female, with my gender being a bigger issue and my age compounding it. I hope things will change in the future, but the idea of constantly being seen as a nurse (especially to people who don't know what a DO is) seems draining. Doctors are assumed to be men so regardless of his age, your son has that benefit. I'm glad he is having a good cycle.
My tuition is about 44k a year and no scholarships can be given to BS/DOs, not that I am assuming I would qualify for one. Just pointing out my ineligibility.

You won't look much different at 26 (normal average age of someone who goes straight through with no gap year) than you will at 24.

 

[gottagofast]

You won't look much different at 26 (normal average age of someone who goes straight through with no gap year) than you will at 24.

Again, my gender is the bigger issue -- I'm just concerned my age, degree, race, etc. may add more reason for patients to distrust me. I've already been told on here that at 19, I am too immature to start medical school. Not to mention isn't the average age of a new doctor 28?

 

[DNAJB6]

Again, my gender is the bigger issue -- I'm just concerned my age, degree, race, etc. may add more reason for patients to distrust me. I've already been told on forums that at 19, I am too immature to start medical school. Not to mention isn't the average age of a new doctor 28?

I wouldn't let that be a factor. If anything, every year you delay having a doctorate/finishing residency, it's one year less of attending salary. Realistically this is all about $$$ and career opportunities.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Again, my gender is the bigger issue -- I'm just concerned my age, degree, race, etc. may add more reason for patients to distrust me. I've already been told on here that at 19, I am too immature to start medical school. Not to mention isn't the average age of a new doctor 28?

I still don't understand you insisting your gender is an issue. Most schools have 50-50 split between two genders.