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Is that for medical school?My tuition is about 44k a year and no scholarships can be given to BS/DOs, not that I am assuming I would qualify for one. Just pointing out my ineligibility.
Is that for medical school?My tuition is about 44k a year and no scholarships can be given to BS/DOs, not that I am assuming I would qualify for one. Just pointing out my ineligibility.
Because some people are confused about BS/DO! They are assuming that you are declining a DO acceptance for a chance at MD. My issue is being an ORM with 510 MCAT score not much clinical hours you most likely will end up with another DO. That's why I explicitly asked the tuition (for DO) and whether you have issues with current program. I am not an adcom, but I know enough about combined programs and Medical schools.Yea, that's the thing. Shouldn't I be fine for applying to DO schools? Why does me losing my BS/DO acceptance seem to mean I'll be losing my only chance at medical school? Thank you for your input! I've mentioned the P/F thing in a previous comment -- it also makes me worried about the future of DOs.
With all respect, all the doctors I've shadowed have been women and every single one has told me stories about not being taken seriously as a doctor. I am sure other female doctors have similar experiences and there are many op-eds online. It's a societal issue that I hope will be fixed.I still don't understand you insisting your gender is an issue. Most schools have 50-50 split between two genders.
Yes, it is for medical school. I'm instate. I don't have issues with my school, I have enjoyed my time here, but it is dull spending 7 years on the same small campus. Even if I go to another DO school, the change in scenery would be appreciated. I'd definitely apply to city osteopathic schools.Is that for medical school?
How old are these physicians? May be it happened during that time. I still don't buy that and just now I asked my wife who is a physician and a department head and she doesn't agree with what you heard.With all respect, all the doctors I've shadowed have been women and every single one has told me stories about not being taken seriously as a doctor. I am sure other female doctors have similar experiences. It's a societal issue that I hope will be fixed.
Yes, it is for medical school.
They are in their 40-50s. One is in primary care and the other is a trauma surgeon. My psychiatrist (who I did not shadow) also shared her stories. It's not fair for you to invalidate their experiences based on your wife's anecdotes. There are also numerous recent op-eds online, which I can link. Women absolutely face negative bias in medicine. Some may be lucky enough to never experience it, like your wife, but that does not mean it doesn't exist. This is mimicking the argument about racism not existing and diverging from my post topic.How old are these physicians? May be it happened during that time. I still don't buy that and just now I asked my wife who is a physician and a department head and she doesn't agree with what you heard.
Oh, good question!The other question is, how good is the residency match list for your current DO school ?
If you are in a top tier DO school such as PCOM, KCU-COM, DMU-COM or CCOM, they do have good residency placements.
If you are in a second or third tier DO school, and if majority of the graduates are matching into primary care/ less desired specialties, then you can reconsider your options.
Haha, exactly as coolsands155 said. I originally was going to go to a T20 and pursue pre-med there, but my parents much preferred the safety of the BS/DO program. I also had extreme doubts in my academic abilities, which is why I allowed my parents to make the final decision. My program's minimums were relatively easy to make compared to the traditional averages.What was your thought process to join 7 year BS/DO program at age 17-18 after high school? And what is changed since then?
You just had or still do you have?I also had extreme doubts in my academic abilities,
Erm, I suppose I had? I honestly doubted I could keep a 3.7+ GPA and score even above average on the MCAT, but I'm far more confident in my abilities now. I do think had I had more time to prepare for the MCAT, I could score better.You just had or still do you have?
Yeah, I saved a ton of money. It was also a lot easier on my health to be near home and be the "big fish in a little pond". But I always wonder, 'what if...', you know? Especially since the T20 was my dream school. I guess that's what I'm trying to avoid right now.Nothing wrong with choosing an "easier school" over a T20. I'd probably recommend that to high schoolers and to my children in the future. But when it comes to med school prestige does matter a lot more than college.
With COMLEX level 1 going P/F you can't just bank on killing level 2 or CK if you want to pursue a competitive specialty. You could have one bad day and all of your work/research goes down the drain. You'll do less damage to yourself if that happened as an MD student.
Anecdotal but 3/6 of my close friends from college regret not taking a gap year to beef up their app for MD (one even got many MD IIs but lacked interview skills), one is thriving, and the two that went MD have little to no complaints.
That's why you hear repeatedly that you want to give MCAT only once with full preparation, not trial and error. You already used one chance. Giving MCAT second time and if you score + few points, not going to make meaningful difference, unless you jumped 10 points, risk is if you loose some points and now really defensive to even get a DO admission.I do think had I had more time to prepare for the MCAT, I could score better.
To be fair, my program forced all of us to take the MCAT early so I couldn't have been fully prepared. I hadn't even finished a biochemistry class at the time of my test. We really got pushed ahead.That's why you hear repeatedly that you want to give MCAT only once with full preparation, not trial and error. You already used one chance. Giving MCAT second time and if you score + few points, not going to make meaningful difference, unless you jumped 10 points, risk is if you loose some points and now really defensive to even get a DO admission.
agree with you the limitations you had, but it seems all your decisions driven by risk averse nature only, not by your own choice, which may lead to immature behavior. It is difficult to digest you have MD thoughts after MCAT score, you knew very well that you are not fully prepared for MCAT, yet you decide to give because you are forced by school requirements.To be fair, my program forced all of us to take the MCAT early so regardless, I couldn't have full preparation. I hadn't even finished a biochemistry class at the time of my test.
Sigh, you are spot on. I've always followed the safe route -- I have yet to experience true adversity. I posted about my concerns for the BS/DO program on here 3 years ago and received that exact saying: "bird-in-hand". Perhaps I did clip my own wings. Thank you for writing this.agree with you the limitations you had, but it seems all your decisions driven by risk averse nature only, not by your own choice, which may lead to immature behavior. It is difficult to digest you have MD thoughts after MCAT score, you knew very well that you are not fully prepared for MCAT, yet you decide to give because you are forced by school requirements.
This reminds me the bird-in-hand argument by high schooles and in doing so cut their own wings..
Do you mean IMG or something else?@HopeP if you don't mind me asking are you international?
I can second this. I work in an ER where the majority of attending physicians are women, and I have heard every single one of them say "I am the doctor" many times. It's worse for the younger ones.With all respect, all the doctors I've shadowed have been women and every single one has told me stories about not being taken seriously as a doctor. I am sure other female doctors have similar experiences and there are many op-eds online. It's a societal issue that I hope will be fixed.
This is so valid, thank you. I've always been open to a gap year considering I'm already a year younger and the program just pushes me further ahead. The idea of BS --> DO --> Residency --> Fellowship with no breaks is terrifying, but it's what my classmates are doing and I guess I still feel obligated to do the same. More life experience would be great.I'm not sure why anyone would want to go straight through from BS to DO or MD with no break. There is so much to see and so much to do in the world, even in COVID times. Things that can better inform you as a person who plans to treat patients from all walks of life.
Thank you. I was honestly baffled that he continued to deny the existence of gender discrimination in medicine.I can second this. I work in an ER where the majority of attending physicians are women, and I have heard every single one of them say "I am the doctor" many times. It's worse for the younger ones.
Yes. To me, I don't want to waste a year in my early 20's worrying about my future career. I'd rather make money, travel, and make memories in my 20's before I bury myself in books and start 40-50 years of stable career. Just my 2 cents.You'd trade the next 40-50 years of your career for a few months to a year of low stress? (there's good stress and bad stress - depends on how you manage it)
Thank you, it's nice to hear that for once in this thread. I know it's below average for matriculant Asians, but still, it's a little hurtful when that's all everyone points out. The article you linked was an informative read, I never knew the stats were that high.OP scored better than 80% of test-takers and a 510 is upper 15% of DO matriculants. I'm honestly impressed she managed to get that score at such a young age, it feels rushed. With more time and a good schedule getting a 514-516 would make a world of difference. Lots of MD schools look at the most recent score.
Like @caterwaiter said, there's so much to do and to see in the world, and no need to rush into arguably the most intensive career. Why women leave medicine | AAMC
Taking an extra year or two to relax a little bit and to further develop healthy study/life habits can't hurt.
Yes, I fully anticipate the possibility of me changing my mind. However, I don't have the same experience with the admission cycle as you have, I guess. Maybe that's why I haven't considered stress yet. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I'll keep the stress in mind. I don't do well with it lol. However, I felt pretty comfortable with waiting for my MCAT test as well, since all I needed was slightly above average.I have to agree with Goro on this one. You have a guaranteed pathway to becoming a doctor. You might be interested in plastics now, but you will likely change your mind since most students do.
I'm sure everyone else on this forum has already drilled you on GPA, MCAT, and Clinical Experience (of which you're missing the latter two), but no one has yet discussed the mental stress of admissions cycle. When you took the MCAT, you had to wait a few weeks anxiously, right? Imagine that but twice as more intense and lasting almost a year. That is what 60% of students who apply every year experience. I already have an MD admission, but if our school offered me a BS/MD or DO pathway, then I would take it since I wouldn't have to be so anxious during the admissions cycle...
We are going in circles about this and since you strongly feel about it let’s not discuss further.They are in their 40-50s. One is in primary care and the other is a trauma surgeon. My psychiatrist (who I did not shadow) also shared her stories. It's not fair for you to invalidate their experiences based on your wife's anecdotes. There are also numerous recent op-eds online, which I can link. Women absolutely face negative bias in medicine. Some may be lucky enough to never experience it, like your wife, but that does not mean it doesn't exist. This is mimicking the argument about racism not existing and diverging from my post topic.
This is been discussed to death in other forms, and the answer is no it is not. Program directors was simply use Step 2That's pretty much the end for DOs getting in top to upper mid tier residencies no?
I'd have to agree with this -- the admissions cycle can bring about an anxiety and neuroticism that can get intense if you don't have good distractions. This is where there the "exploring things you love" really comes in handy. I've found that having a couple of weekly volunteer gigs is both really fulfilling and cool to talk about in secondary essays. In addition to my reasons listed above, benefits to a gap year include having the time and mental space to put together an application that you can submit as early as humanly possible.Yes, I fully anticipate the possibility of me changing my mind. However, I don't have the same experience with the admission cycle as you have, I guess. Maybe that's why I haven't considered stress yet. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I'll keep the stress in mind. I don't do well with it lol. However, I felt pretty comfortable with waiting for my MCAT test as well, since all I needed was slightly above average.
No, just no.But now DOs have one shot at getting it "right". My DO friends were scoring 230-235s on NBMEs but got low 210s high 210s. They did slightly better on Step 2 but not much. With only CK/level 2 now, students only get one shot and messing up is a death sentence for DOs while MDs are cut some slack.
I was trying to be politeHe is an ORM, 510 is probably low.
We need to show tough love, going thru an application cycle by withdrawing a guaranteed admission is a highly risky move.I was trying to be polite
This is so valid, thank you. I've always been open to a gap year considering I'm already a year younger and the program just pushes me further ahead. The idea of BS --> DO --> Residency --> Fellowship with no breaks is terrifying, but it's what my classmates are doing and I guess I still feel obligated to do the same. More life experience would be great.
Thank you. I was honestly baffled that he continued to deny the existence of gender discrimination in medicine.
Over Represented in Medicine (Caucasian and most Asians ). With average ECs I would say 3.7 GPA and 90th percentile MCAT.What's orm? What mcat is competitive for caucasian female?
Yes about the first part if you want to go into academics. No about the last part. The weariness of sending their family members to a DO lol. You may get that on a very small amount (maybe hundreds out of the US population) but you will also get patients that won’t see an MD because they think DOs are more holistic/not pill pushers. I don’t want either one of those in my practice. Also, with today’s climate people are just happy to be seen by a residency trained and board certified physician. People are tired of having the same copay cost to see a midlevel (different discussion and really not trying to go down that rabbit hole).Employers, committees deciding tenure or promotion, etc., might. There is definitely bias even among attending physicians. One (I believe an admin) even conceded in a thread here a few years back that he would be weary of referring his family members to a DO unless vetted by an academic medical center. There is also regional variation.
That's the other thing. If I go the BS/DO route, I'll be a 24 yo female doctor. I am wary that people will not take me seriously due to my age and gender, especially with a DO behind my name instead of the more well-known MD. Like I hate the idea of constantly correcting people, no, I'm not a nurse nor unqualified -- I'm a doctor. Every single time. The attitude of the public toward Trump's DO physician was also not great to see.
Again, my gender is the bigger issue -- I'm just concerned my age, degree, race, etc. may add more reason for patients to distrust me. I've already been told on here that at 19, I am too immature to start medical school. Not to mention isn't the average age of a new doctor 28?
ORM does not include Caucasians.Over Represented in Medicine (Caucasian and most Asians ). With average ECs I would say 3.7 GPA and 90th percentile MCAT.
Agree, race, gender and age are not deterring factors to choose between DO and MD, the core issue for OP.Degree won’t matter. It won’t play into it. If people distrust you over your degree then being a white male won’t change that. But like I’ve said that will be hundreds of patients in the entire US population and believe me you don’t want those people in your practice. You will have plenty of patients regardless. If it’s over your gender then being a MD won’t fix that. And for age... residency will fix that. The bags under your eyes and graying hair will fix that lol
Agree, race, gender and age are not deterring factors to choose between DO and MD, the core issue for OP.
a wise man says risk is a cost you pay for an opportunity.Agreed. The only good reason I can think of for OP to decline an invitation to a position of strength is that he/she is interested in surgery.
OP has a good chance of being readmitted to DO if MD apps don't work out, but at the possible loss of an invested of 1-2 years of time without returns. If I were the OP, I would move forward and enter the medical school system.
true. although in this case the opportunity held can confer OP the same outcome - matching surgery - granted he/she will have to work harder (COMLEX, OMM, score higher on both boards)a wise man says risk is a cost you pay for an opportunity.
Yes, my wife was also called as nurse few times during her pediatric residency but I think it was by parents not attendings and she wasn't bothered by that much.I’m in one of the most female dominated specialties, peds. Both the MD and DO physicians get called nurse equally. They just correct them and go on their way. It’s really not worth letting those thoughts take real estate in your brain.
Yes, my wife was also called as nurse few times during her pediatric residency but I think it was by parents not attendings and she wasn't bothered by that much.
What's approximately the cutoff for 90th percentile?Over Represented in Medicine (Caucasian and most Asians ). With average ECs I would say 3.7 GPA and 90th percentile MCAT.
514What's approximately the cutoff for 90th percentile?
Thanks for the matching info (in your signature), gives lot of good info. I was wondering about Optho but realized it has it's own match and I see few DOs matching for that also.Haven’t read the whole thread but saw you are interested in surgery. What DO school is it and what state are you from?
I’m a DO applying to surgery right now and can answer questions about it if need be. You can PM me if you want.
I believe it's 3 years.How long is mcat score good for?
So has my wife. Medicine is a field where you are most judged by your merits and abilities. Sure, some elitists may judge you by school, degree, gender, etc. Oprah has said that excellence is the greatest deterrent to prejudice that exists. I agree. Being excellent at what you do overcomes all of these issues, and in reality, is the only thing that matters to me as a patient or who I choose to care for my family and friends. My wife has worked in 2 large groups. When I have met her associates socially, they are quick to tell me she is the best " fill in the blank", they know. Isn't this what we all strive for? Excellent physicians who are secure in their craft aren't bothered by these unintentional slights. I think OPs concerns are mostly based on being 19 and possibly shadowing insecure people. I will change my advice to her. If OP is unable to handle explaining just what a DO is to family, friends, and patients, maybe a gap year would be in order.Yes, my wife was also called as nurse few times during her pediatric residency but I think it was by parents not attendings and she wasn't bothered by that much.
That was my revised advice too, but I doubt parents will go along with it.I will change my advice to her. If OP is unable to handle explaining just what a DO is to family, friends, and patients, maybe a gap year would be in order.
Fascinating observation from a parent, when the whole reason OP finds herself in this situation is the over involvement of her parents. So I guess your kid's parents are just better at this than hers???That was my revised advice too, but I doubt parents will go along with it.