Should I leave my BS/DO program and apply MD?

[HopeP]

That was my revised advice too, but I doubt parents will go along with it.

Sooner or later every parents face that inevitable situation, you don't agree with kids. My rule is simple, let them accountable for their decisions and that is part of growing and maturing a human. If a student immature enough to drive own decisions, afraid to follow passions just because don't want to take risk at all, I am not sure if I want to visit that Dr as patient.

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[EdgeTrimmer]

Fascinating observation from a parent, when the whole reason OP finds herself in this situation is the over involvement of her parents. So I guess your kid's parents are just better at this than hers???

Maybe ALL the parents should find another hobby and let their kids grow up, mature, make their own mistakes and live their own lives!!!

Here you go again.

 

[KnightDoc]

Here you go again.

No, actually, it was you, someone else's parent, providing advice to someone else's kid, then reversing it, then opining as to how the other parent is going to react to your advice. Now that your kid seems to be on his way, all of your efforts apparently have to be directed somewhere.

Since you have become such an expert, maybe you should apply yourself rather than getting involved with other people's kids! Either that, or join one of the consulting practices and put a vendor tag next to your edge trimmer! Otherwise, substituting your wise counsel for that of OP's parent's isn't really going to help her grow up!

 

[gyngyn]

Knock it off, all three of you.

 

[deleted1066189]

Since you have become such an expert, maybe you should apply yourself

Good advice for yourself.
4000+ posts of "pre-med counseling", yet you haven't even participated in the application process.

 

[KnightDoc]

Good advice for yourself.
4000+ posts of "pre-med counseling", yet you haven't even participated in the application process.

Yes, and I will be applying myself. THAT'S the point! I'm not a parent advising other people's kids AND opining that their parents won't let their kids listen to my advice.

For what it's worth, I've participated in every aspect of the process other than pushing the submit button (prereqs, ECs, MCAT, LORs, PS, etc.). That's also the point. Some experts here haven't done anything, and never will. That's fine, to the extent they feel the need and their kids either welcome the "help" or are powerless to stop it. IMHO, telling other people's kids what to do, and advising them to not allow THEIR parents to do exactly the same thing they are doing with their own kids is crossing a line.

 

[gottagofast]

@EdgeTrimmer stated his opinion based on the feedback he got from his wife, who is a woman. He didn't arrive at his opinion alone.

You were exposed more than once to the feedback YOU got from the community you happened to be in contact with, which convinced you this must be the case for the rest of the USA. It could be true. But your outrage at someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean = the outraged person must be right. Using someone's (@EdgeTrimmer 's) gender to undermine their position is problematic as well.

My outrage? I was not mad, just baffled that someone wanted to invalidate my doctors' experiences with discrimination based on his wife's answer. Also, I did not arrive at that conclusion based on my experiences alone -- I have read a lot of articles and op-eds, especially with the current climate. There's even a specific space in this forum for women in medicine. I specifically pointed out his gender because he doesn't have primary experience in the matter. I do not understand why you did not correct his discrediting my knowledge.

 

[DNAJB6]

I will say that I am a little surprised that so many people would be deferential to their parents on such an obviously personal and impactful life event. My parents had zero say in where I applied and went to college, and I will not let them be involved in the medical school process either. You have to live your life for you. As well meaning as most are, you will still be living with those decisions when they're pushing up daisies.

 

[Goro]

I will say that I am a little surprised that so many people would be deferential to their parents on such an obviously personal and impactful life event. My parents had zero say in where I applied and went to college, and I will not let them be involved in the medical school process either. You have to live your life for you. As well meaning as most are, you will still be living with those decisions when they're pushing up daisies.

Never underestimate the damage that Tiger Parents do.

 

[gottagofast]

I've read through these posts and came to some conclusions. Thank you all for your advice and knowledge on the matter. It has been very eye-opening to see all the perspectives. I do not think I can specifically reply to everyone without flooding the thread, however. My apologies.
Ultimately, I think I have not challenged myself throughout my academic career, as I've always deferred to what my parents approve of. I've also always chosen the safe route. I guess ultimately it is up to me to decide if I want to take a risk for once. Honestly, I'm not sure if I do. I've looked more into our match list and opportunities and I'm just excited for medical school, you know? I wanna get started ASAP. But maybe I'll grow complacent in medical school as well and give up on my current interests. I will have to ruminate a bit more on this.
Also thank you for your perspectives on gender and age issues. I'm a rather timid individual and the idea of constantly being doubted made me very uncomfortable. I suppose I will just have to grow up and deal with it. I've been rather sheltered. Maybe a gap year would be good for personal growth, but I guess I'm unsure of what to do during that time. That's not relevant to this thread, however.

 

[gottagofast]

I will say that I am a little surprised that so many people would be deferential to their parents on such an obviously personal and impactful life event. My parents had zero say in where I applied and went to college, and I will not let them be involved in the medical school process either. You have to live your life for you. As well meaning as most are, you will still be living with those decisions when they're pushing up daisies.

Like you said, the difficulty from rejecting their decisions is that it's not like their decisions are bad for me -- they were all done with the idea of least risk in mind. That combined with the fact that they're funding my career makes me concede to their ideas.

 

[gottagofast]

OP has a good chance of being readmitted to DO if MD apps don't work out, but at the possible loss of an invested of 1-2 years of time without returns. If I were the OP, I would just move forward and enter the medical school system.

I guess an argument for the contrary is that even as a readmitted DO, I could choose a new medical school for academics, new peers, and new experiences. I also would learn to take a risk. The 1-2 years would be invested in personal growth.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

My outrage? I was not mad, just baffled that someone wanted to invalidate my doctors' experiences with discrimination based on his wife's answer. Also, I did not arrive at that conclusion based on my experiences alone -- I have read a lot of articles and op-eds, especially with the current climate. There's even a specific space in this forum for women in medicine. I specifically pointed out his gender because he doesn't have primary experience in the matter. I do not understand why you did not correct his discrediting my knowledge.

I wasn’t discrediting your knowledge but I have doubts about frequency what you said happens and that’s why I checked with my wife. Those with direct knowledge responded afterwards.

 

[FiO2@21]

I’m not sure why the app recommended this thread when I don’t follow this sub forum. The whole time
I thought I was reading the anesthesia sub forum and was wondering where all these new users came from.

But since I put the time in I figured I would add my 2 cents. I don’t know how your 3 digit MCAT translates to the 2 digit one and I definitely don’t know the standard numbers for applicants, which seem to rise every year.

But I do have some broader thoughts as someone who had the choice between taking time off between undergrad to “rehabilitate” their application for the sake of MD programs vs starting essentially immediately for a DO program.

1) I ultimately decided for my personality, it would be better to start sooner and focus the energy I would have spent on another MCAT, being an EM scribe (like every other pre-med on the planet), etc. on attempting to excel in medical school and Step 1.

Even though step 1 is only pass/fail, the energy spent focusing on step 1 will enable you to do well on step 2 ck.

This is a personal decision. If you’re excited about med school and feel energized enough to do well in medical school, then just get on with it. For most fields, simply doing very well on Step 2 CK will be enough. But if you know right now this minute that you’re only wanting to do dermatology or radiation oncology, then sure defer this admission and apply elsewhere... but remember that nothing in life is guaranteed and I wouldn’t even assume that you’d have future DO admissions in the bag.

(As an aside, I wouldn’t worry too much about the “only having 1 shot instead of 2” thing... because honestly there are many programs that filtered on step 1 alone and didn’t even get around to seeing Step 2)

2) There’s a lot of talk on here of you making an unwise decision by participating in a combined BA/DO program, taking the MCAT on the school’s timeline, etc. To me this is bananas. These things were done in the service of efficiently getting you started in medical school. Congratulations on doing well so far and on successfully applying to a medical school. You should be feeling good about all this. Don’t let the SDN machine keep you down. There will literally always be people who do better on exams, class rank... That’s just life.

3) Don’t let this process turn into some evaluation of your personality, etc... I’m reading comments about parents, you not taking enough risks in life, whatever. But most of the medical community is comprised of risk averse personalities... besides EM

4) I saw your thoughts re: age or giving yourself exposure to adversity by turning down the DO admission, but these don’t hold that much weight to me.

You’ll have more than enough exposure to hardship and adversity in medical school, no need to pile more on that. In terms of discrimination because of your age and gender, the gender discrimination you face much won’t change regardless of your age.

When I was an intern, I had patients look at male STUDENTS as if they in charge and ignore the female attending who was talking directly at them. Once they were informed they were all appropriately apologetic... but the couple extra years of experience by the time you’re 30 will probably serve you better than if you had waited.

Anyway this is becoming a disorganized mess. There’s clearly no obviously right choice. But what I would say is, if your career interests are within merely the moderately competitive specialties, get a move on with your life and just get started. As a resident I saw college friends take a bit of a longer path (which is fine!) and was so happy I was out of the medical school and then residency application rat races sooner in my life. That stuff sucks.

 

[Banco]

Well if you have this burning desire to do so, do it. With your scores you can get into a DO school regular pathway too. And sadly there is still significant DO bias in many specialties. However you will have to improve your application with regards to clinical experience and you will lose 1 year (which in the grand scheme is nothing major).

 

[deleted889094]

Again, my gender is the bigger issue -- I'm just concerned my age, degree, race, etc. may add more reason for patients to distrust me. I've already been told on here that at 19, I am too immature to start medical school. Not to mention isn't the average age of a new doctor 28?

You shouldn't worry about things you can't control - like how patients might perceive those things. Honestly, if it perturbs you that much, those are reasons to not become a doctor at all. There are a lot of old people who grew up in a completely different era - where there weren't that many women in medicine. You're gonna see a lot of old people who aren't entirely with it and might make a lot of mistakes and assumptions. Set yourself up for success now by viewing these patients as opportunities to have compassion on someone by letting it roll off your back, not blows to your self-concept to be endured.

 

[Damson]

You shouldn't worry about things you can't control - like how patients might perceive those things. Honestly, if it perturbs you that much, those are reasons to not become a doctor at all. There are a lot of old people who grew up in a completely different era - where there weren't that many women in medicine. You're gonna see a lot of old people who aren't entirely with it and might make a lot of mistakes and assumptions. Set yourself up for success now by viewing these patients as opportunities to have compassion on someone by letting it roll off your back, not blows to your self-concept to be endured.

This. Female physicians being perceived as nurses sometimes doesn't have to be an injustice/inconvenience to them. Letting others' (patients') misunderstandings alter your serotonin levels is a tiresome way to live life. You can either ruminate about the cognitive dissonance you just experienced, or let it fade in short time.

 

[Deecee2DO]

OP go MD. Youre young enough to build an app if you need to if you really want MD. If you want Plastics you better go MD. I regret going DO and not retaking the MCAT. So much crap you have to put up with as a DO student (OMM, more expensive, way more busy work for some ridiculous reason, limited resources for research and connections, hardcore primary care push from your institution, working twice as hard for the same residency spot as your friends at MD programs, having to take two board exams one of which is the most poorly written exam on the face of the planet, having to explain what a DO is etc). Overall being a DO is a heck of a lot better than not being a physician at all do not get me wrong but if I had the choice to do it over again or if I had the ability to have my degree legally switched to MD 10x out of 10 id go MD with zero hesitation (unless of course it was an MD degree from a caribbean school lol)

 

[FrederickFlores]

Hi all,
I have been a part of a 7 year BS/DO program since I was accepted as a senior in HS, but now as I'm approaching the switch from undergrad to medical school, I'm considering leaving the program to apply to MD schools. When I accepted the offer, I was worried I wouldn't do well enough in college to have competitive stats, but now that I'm in my junior year, I have a better picture and now I'm reconsidering my decision. Currently, I have a 3.93 and a 510 MCAT. I lack clinical hours, however, but I do have leadership roles in several organizations, volunteer hours, and a research poster publication. Would you guys consider dropping a DO acceptance and taking the risk of applying MD? I would also lose my chance to graduate early and I'll have to shell out a lot more money. However, I like the option of being able to practice outside the US in my family's country (I'm an ORM) and more open doors to competitive specialties.
Thanks!

Complex questions...here are my thoughts. 1) I feel it would be a slap in the face to your current program, 2) it sounds like you have some unfounded bias against DO’s. Now that the ACGME combines residency offers to both MD/DO students equally and both USMLE and COMLEX Step 1 will be pass fail by 2022...there is no difference in getting a competitive specialty. 3) you would be foolish to spend additional money and time for an MD degree when a DO degree is identical. Just my thoughts .

 

[FrederickFlores]

This. Female physicians being perceived as nurses sometimes doesn't have to be an injustice/inconvenience to them. Letting others' (patients') misunderstandings alter your serotonin levels is a tiresome way to live life. You can either ruminate about the cognitive dissonance you just experienced, or let it fade in short time.

Using this as a way to educate people is the way to go. I will be a first year DO student in 2021; but have been a male RN for several years. I get mistaken for a physician all the time...I use the mislabeling as an opportunity to educate my patient population.

 

[FirstGenerationDocRNtoMD]

Hold onto that DO acceptance for dear life.

 

[ssamoya]

Hi all,
I have been a part of a 7 year BS/DO program since I was accepted as a senior in HS, but now as I'm approaching the switch from undergrad to medical school, I'm considering leaving the program to apply to MD schools. When I accepted the offer, I was worried I wouldn't do well enough in college to have competitive stats, but now that I'm in my junior year, I have a better picture and now I'm reconsidering my decision. Currently, I have a 3.93 and a 510 MCAT. I lack clinical hours, however, but I do have leadership roles in several organizations, volunteer hours, and a research poster publication. Would you guys consider dropping a DO acceptance and taking the risk of applying MD? I would also lose my chance to graduate early and I'll have to shell out a lot more money. However, I like the option of being able to practice outside the US in my family's country (I'm an ORM) and more open doors to competitive specialties.
Thanks!

I have trained with and worked with many DO’s. What I would tell you is that some of them were better docs than the allopathic ones in the same specialty. What I have found over the years, that, imo is key, is to obtain an allopathic residency. That is the best of both worlds.

 

[DO2015CA]

Complex questions...here are my thoughts. 1) I feel it would be a slap in the face to your current program, 2) it sounds like you have some unfounded bias against DO’s. Now that the ACGME combines residency offers to both MD/DO students equally and both USMLE and COMLEX Step 1 will be pass fail by 2022...there is no difference in getting a competitive specialty. 3) you would be foolish to spend additional money and time for an MD degree when a DO degree is identical. Just my thoughts .

What are you talking about? To address your points 1.) a slap in the face no. People do drop these programs. 2.) there is absolutely a difference in getting a competitive residency and both going pass fail only make it harder. 3.) if they already know they hate primary care and want surgery/competitive then it does make sense. The extra year and added cost is a drop in the bucket for a much better path to the specialty you want.

All of this only matters because they have borderline MD stats. 3.9/510 can net you a low tier or state (depending where you live) MD schools which drastically improve your career path. This is why those that are further along in the path have all recommended it. And if they fail they have strong enough scores that the likelihood they don’t get back into a DO program (prob not the same one) is pretty low.

 

[olddoc1842]

I’m most interested in surgery and I really did not like my experiences with primary care, unlike what most DO schools push. I’ve developed a new interest in plastics after I had some work done over the summer.

The merger is another one of my concerns. Getting a pass from a DO school seems to be less attractive than an MD school.

I have many DO colleagues who are surgeons and even in plastics. It's less of a barrier than years ago. med school applications are up by a significant percentage. I would stay the course.

 

[MedSchoolB]

To be fair, I'm trying to convey is the fact I will be young and female, with my gender being a bigger issue and my age compounding it. I hope things will change in the future, but the idea of constantly being seen as a nurse (especially to people who don't know what a DO is) seems draining. Doctors are assumed to be men so regardless of his age, your son has that benefit. I'm glad he is having a good cycle.
My tuition is about 44k a year and no scholarships can be given to BS/DOs, not that I am assuming I would qualify for one. Just pointing out my ineligibility.

Unfortunately, biases happen everywhere: It will happen whether or not you have a DO or MD. Being that you're a Female and/or Asian, some will likely assume you're a nurse (non doctor) and even when they know you're a physician, some will still not know the difference or are doing it to be petty or they can't handle the thought that you're actually a physician. I know plenty of female MD (& some DO) physicians/surgeons who get called nurses or anything other than a doctor. These kinds of sexist ideologies that this is a man's career field unfortunately still exists even today. It will also happen in any specialty you go into. But instead of allowing that stigma and misinformation to spread, why don't you/us do something about it than to just allow it to continue? I would like to see things change for the better over time than to continue to see the elitist mindset that DOs don't compare to MDs. Most patients care about your competence and empathic skills than the title after your name. I also see that the BS/DO/MD programs are problematic in that sense that people grow and what they wanted 7 years ago esp in the late teens/early twenties change. I hope you make the right decision for you, because ultimately, you're the only one who will live with it. But you've already come a long way and Congratulations in all your hard work so far! Whatever you decide to do, please always remember your reasons why you entered this profession in the first place.

 

[formerF1DO]

Hi all,
I have been a part of a 7 year BS/DO program since I was accepted as a senior in HS, but now as I'm approaching the switch from undergrad to medical school, I'm considering leaving the program to apply to MD schools. When I accepted the offer, I was worried I wouldn't do well enough in college to have competitive stats, but now that I'm in my junior year, I have a better picture and now I'm reconsidering my decision. Currently, I have a 3.93 and a 510 MCAT. I lack clinical hours, however, but I do have leadership roles in several organizations, volunteer hours, and a research poster publication. Would you guys consider dropping a DO acceptance and taking the risk of applying MD? I would also lose my chance to graduate early and I'll have to shell out a lot more money. However, I like the option of being able to practice outside the US in my family's country (I'm an ORM) and more open doors to competitive specialties.
Thanks!

My experience is dated, but I graduated from CCOM of Illinois in 2009. I don't think they had a BS/DO program back then.
In 2005, 2 CCOM first year medical students applied to 2 different MD schools, they got in, and they left for the MD schools.
I still remember their names.
I look them up on Doximity today, and they appear to have productive careers in reasonably competitive specialties.
I don't recall anyone stopping them from applying to MD schools.

Retake the MCAT, see if you can do better.
Apply to MD schools.
Better, if you don't lose your DO spot, no matter what you do. I believe that was the case for my former 2 classmates.

 

[Eye-eye]

Okay, as an allopathic M4 applying into ophtho:

1) It is absolutely harder to get into many specialties as a DO. People who tell you otherwise simply haven't looked at the stats well enough. Go look at the sf match data for the 2020 match and previous years if you don't believe me. Yes, some competitive fields are much better about it than others, but as others have pointed out, you really can't know now where you'll end up, and you really don't want to have doors closed / very uphill battles when you find what you end up loving and wanting to do with the rest of your life.

2) I think it's important to realize how competitive certain subspecialty matches are at baseline. I got a 98th percentile on the MCAT. But most people who got into med school are probably 90th percentile plus. Thus I did just above average on step 1, despite studying way harder, longer, and smarter for it. Step 2 likewise. Despite a bunch of research efforts, volunteering, and some really unique extracurriculars, it's been a hard application cycle. And ophtho isn't as hard as some others, like ENT, ortho, or derm. Now step 1 is going p/F, so it'll be even harder to stand out, unless you just rock step 2 (and to an extent, even if you do - you still have to check all the boxes), and as I've pointed out, you can't bank on performing at the top 1% of all med students on that. If you're even considering the possibility of a difficult subspecialty, don't add the DO stigma to the mix. Some of these programs are still very old school and the bias very real in applications. I would say even very low tier MD (except carribean) > very hight tier DO for most allopathic PDs. I certainly have no clue how to tell one DO school from another, and wouldn't assume a 60-year old MD would care to figure all that out either. Most of what I've heard from DOs and osteopathic students about their school is that it didn't support them and kinda sucked. So yeah, if they made it through and are in residency, they made it past the bull**** and DO=MD, and most MDs nowadays would agree with that. But when you hear all about how some of these schools don't support their students or provide good training, why, as an old curmudgeonly MD program director, would you take the risk on a DO compared to the MD student that's just as qualified?

3) On the flip side, I don't really know how competitive your stats are for med school apps, because it's been a while,and I obviously only have an n=1. If it were going DO at your straight-shot program vs an iffy chance of matching elsewhere, I'd take the slot. But it sounds like others are saying you should at least match DO elsewhere, and beefing up your MCAT and clinical hours could make you an awesome candidate for a lot of MD schools. Yes, it's more stress to do the application cycle, but I highly recommend it in order to prepare yourself a little for the residency application process, if nothing else. Trust me, medical training has no shortage of stressor. Don't cop out just because there's more stress here. Trust me, it would reduce stress down the line, come residency application season, to (a) have gone through a similar process before and (b) have the MD backing supporting your app.

4) Your race and sex, while they may create annoying situations with patients and biased employers in the future, really have no place in the discussion. Those will not change, and the degree won't really modify them at all, in my experience - the people who will discriminate against you for being female won't stop if you're an MD. Also, being female should not hurt in the application process, if you're worried about that. Just as with URM applicants, there's been a decades-long push to accept more female applicants to med school, which has succeeded. I think the med school pool is now slightly more F than M.

5) Yes, some lay people won't think you're a real doctor if you're a DO (see Trump's doctor). MD is pretty universally recognized. It could be annoying to correct people, but most DOs I talk to don't seem to get it that often and aren't too bugged by it. There are also plenty of people who will put a target on your back as a doc (MD or DO) and praise nurses, or midlevels, or naturopaths, or whoever they (for whatever reason) think is better, so there is no way to escape it entirely anyway. But if it's a huge annoyance for you / an ego thing, then yes, MD is a bit nicer not to have the annoyance. Shouldn't be a huge part of the equation, but if it's a small part of the equation for you, that's fine. Everyone has an ego (myself included; it was a part of the equation for me), and you do you.

6) Others have mentioned taking some time off for personal growth. If you're at all trepidatious about going in now, I'd agree to take the time off. In addition to bolstering your app, clinical hours can be useful to figure out ideas for your future specialty, or even if medicine is right for you. You want to be pretty sure, because it's a loooong pathway that requires a hell of a lot of dedication and sacrifice. And it's hard to turn back once you get that first semester tuition bill.

7) When you go to med school admissions interviews, don't say you want to do plastics. Say something more primary care-ish. If it's one of the third year clerkships at the school, it's probably safe (including gen surg, I'd think), but don't say something that subspecialized. I was honest in mine and said ophtho, and even with the caveat that I wasn't sure /was open to anything, I'm pretty sure it hurt me everywhere I went. Just don't do it. Oh, and keep that open to anything part.

Lastly, I know this can be overwhelming at times. Know that many others are in the same or a much worse position than you, and even though it makes things more complicated, it's nice to have these sorts of options as well. Maintain good self care and stay strong!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

My experience is dated, but I graduated from CCOM of Illinois in 2009. I don't think they had a BS/DO program back then.
In 2005, 2 CCOM first year medical students applied to 2 different MD schools, they got in, and they left for the MD schools.
I still remember their names.
I look them up on Doximity today, and they appear to have productive careers in reasonably competitive specialties.
I don't recall anyone stopping them from applying to MD schools.

Retake the MCAT, see if you can do better.
Apply to MD schools.
Better, if you don't lose your DO spot, no matter what you do. I believe that was the case for my former 2 classmates.

I'm not sure if you are advising the OP to apply as 1st yr DO student, or not. If so, respectfully, I would disagree. First, I'm not sure an MD school would accept OP today if they have already matriculated at a DO school. I believe they have a way of knowing this. Other Adcoms might be able to add more info, @Goro, @ Gonnif ? Secondly, it turns a 4 yr med school education into 5, with an extra yr or half yr tuition. Thirdly, I believe it is unethical if the student leaves the DO school after 5 or 6 weeks to matriculate in the MD school next year. The DO school cannot replace the student at this point and eats 3 yrs of tuition. Just my 2 cents.

 

[DO2015CA]

I'm not sure if you are advising the OP to apply as 1st yr DO student, or not. If so, respectfully, I would disagree. First, I'm not sure an MD school would accept OP today if they have already matriculated at a DO school. I believe they have a way of knowing this. Other Adcoms might be able to add more info, @Goro, @ Gonnif ? Secondly, it turns a 4 yr med school education into 5, with an extra yr or half yr tuition. Thirdly, I believe it is unethical if the student leaves the DO school after 5 or 6 weeks to matriculate in the MD school next year. The DO school cannot replace the student at this point and eats 3 yrs of tuition. Just my 2 cents.

I can agree to some of these points but worrying about the schools tuition is not one of them. Many of these private DO schools are pulling highway robbery on the students anyway. I’d be more inclined to say it screws another one of your applicant peers out of the ability to become a physician.

 

[mdphd123j]

I’m surprised more people in this thread haven’t mentioned the possibility of an MCAT retake. Take this with a grain of salt, because I don’t know your situation or how much you think you could improve the score, or how well your standardized test experiences go in general — but that option keeps all doors open and, like you said, a 525 would make your decision easier. 3.93 is a great GPA.

I empathize with wanting to practice near your parents; I don’t know the process for transferring to a foreign country, but I understand how hard it can be to live apart from family. To sacrifice or not for proximity to family is a very difficult and personal decision in my opinion. I wish you the best of luck OP

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I can agree to some of these points but worrying about the schools tuition is not one of them. Many of these private DO schools are pulling highway robbery on the students anyway. I’d be more inclined to say it screws another one of your applicant peers out of the ability to become a physician.

Yep. Forgot to mention that. Thanks.

 

[deleted1082375]

Hi all,
I have been a part of a 7 year BS/DO program since I was accepted as a senior in HS, but now as I'm approaching the switch from undergrad to medical school, I'm considering leaving the program to apply to MD schools. When I accepted the offer, I was worried I wouldn't do well enough in college to have competitive stats, but now that I'm in my junior year, I have a better picture and now I'm reconsidering my decision. Currently, I have a 3.93 and a 510 MCAT. I lack clinical hours, however, but I do have leadership roles in several organizations, volunteer hours, and a research poster publication. Would you guys consider dropping a DO acceptance and taking the risk of applying MD? I would also lose my chance to graduate early and I'll have to shell out a lot more money. However, I like the option of being able to practice outside the US in my family's country (I'm an ORM) and more open doors to competitive specialties.
Thanks!

Hell no.

 

[RheumDoc112]

Hi all,
I have been a part of a 7 year BS/DO program since I was accepted as a senior in HS, but now as I'm approaching the switch from undergrad to medical school, I'm considering leaving the program to apply to MD schools. When I accepted the offer, I was worried I wouldn't do well enough in college to have competitive stats, but now that I'm in my junior year, I have a better picture and now I'm reconsidering my decision. Currently, I have a 3.93 and a 510 MCAT. I lack clinical hours, however, but I do have leadership roles in several organizations, volunteer hours, and a research poster publication. Would you guys consider dropping a DO acceptance and taking the risk of applying MD? I would also lose my chance to graduate early and I'll have to shell out a lot more money. However, I like the option of being able to practice outside the US in my family's country (I'm an ORM) and more open doors to competitive specialties.
Thanks!

Simply put...unless you have a fantastic reason for making the switch I would stay put where you are. I'm sure there will be 20 pages of debate regarding the benefits of DO vs MD but the reality is no one actually cares once you're in practice.
Good luck to you!

 

[Eye-eye]

Simply put...unless you have a fantastic reason for making the switch I would stay put where you are. I'm sure there will be 20 pages of debate regarding the benefits of DO vs MD but the reality is no one actually cares once you're in practice.
Good luck to you!

Well yeah, but if you want to go into a competitive surgical specialty, getting there is the issue, not what it'll be like once you're an attending. A lot of people say "oh don't worry about it, you'll be fine." That's all fine and dandy if you get into the field you want, but if you don't you're going to have a hell of a lot of regret for not going with a route much more likely to have gotten you there. For the rest of your career, potentially.

My advisory dean also liked to tell all of us "don't worry, you'll all [pass step 1 / pass your clerkships / graduate]. I wanted to scream, "yeah, we know that! Some of us want to go into ortho, plastics, and ophtho, though, and just passing doesn't do **** to get us there!" You will hear this advice, and it's good to bear in mind that the worst case scenario once you're in (and in your case likely as well since you appear to have a good enough app to at least get a DO spot somewhere even if you take time off), is that you'll be a doctor, and can probably find a way to be happy in one of the non-competitive fields. But if there's something you develop a passion for, you still need to work your ass off and don't let any opportunities slide. You have to volunteer (somewhat), do good research (and publish), rock clinicals (often frustratingly subjective) and step, and find other ways to really make your app stand out / give yourself a unique attribute to develop an app around (think: global health, advocacy, education, deep research involvement, etc). Looking at the stats and how my residency application season went this year, I don't know if I would match as a DO. Certainly the osteopathic ophtho applicants I've spoken to seem to be having a good bit fewer interviews, unless they're truly in the upper upper crust of step scores.

Trust me, getting into med school is not the hardest part, if you're going for competitive subspecialties. Put in the extra effort now if you think you may be really interested in some of those. On the flipside, if you just can't end up increasing your MCAT and clinical hours, and you really don't care that much about specialty / know that you'd be happy in psych/FM/etc too in the end, then it may make more sense to go DO. From talking to my classmates going into such fields (who don't need to go to a top-20 program for academic aspirations, anyway), it does seem like an incredibly stress-free process, and perhaps getting into med school was much more difficult of a cutoff (or step 1, in some cases). It really just ends up depending on how good you can get your app and where you want to go in your career.

 

[KnightDoc]

I can agree to some of these points but worrying about the schools tuition is not one of them. Many of these private DO schools are pulling highway robbery on the students anyway. I’d be more inclined to say it screws another one of your applicant peers out of the ability to become a physician.

With all due respect, you guys are not fully understanding how these combined programs work. OP wouldn't be taking a seat (or tuition) away from anyone! OP is asking about leaving a program AFTER completing the UG component and BEFORE starting DO. The school would merely fill that seat with a regular admission applicant. She wouldn't be leaving after matriculating in DO school, it wouldn't be considered unethical, there would be no reason to disclose it to other schools, other schools would have no way to know, etc. The issue is merely giving up a guaranteed DO spot to take a shot at MD. None of the other issues are in play!

 

[Cheezin]

What would be unethical is leaving after DO school starts since those seats cannot be offered to someone else. Since quite a few DO schools start earlier than MD this happens a lot and 11 students jumped ship at my friend's school a few years ago.

I believe I have seen Goro mention this and that it is something DO schools expect to occur for several students each year. It is not an unusual occurrence and just broadly speaking, an MD seat is better than a DO seat. I don't believe it is unethical and don't believe the DO schools view it as such either.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

With all due respect, you guys are not fully understanding how these combined programs work. OP wouldn't be taking a seat (or tuition) away from anyone! OP is asking about leaving a program AFTER completing the UG component and BEFORE starting DO. The school would merely fill that seat with a regular admission applicant. She wouldn't be leaving after matriculating in DO school, it wouldn't be considered unethical, there would be no reason to disclose it to other schools, other schools would have no way to know, etc. The issue is merely giving up a guaranteed DO spot to take a shot at MD. None of the other issues are in play!

Please re read my post. I was responding to formerf1 who stated 2 of his DO OMS1 classmates applied to MD school while1st yrs and left after getting accepted. Do2021's post and mine will make more sense.

 

[formerF1DO]

I'm not sure if you are advising the OP to apply as 1st yr DO student, or not. If so, respectfully, I would disagree. First, I'm not sure an MD school would accept OP today if they have already matriculated at a DO school. I believe they have a way of knowing this. Other Adcoms might be able to add more info, @Goro, @ Gonnif ? Secondly, it turns a 4 yr med school education into 5, with an extra yr or half yr tuition. Thirdly, I believe it is unethical if the student leaves the DO school after 5 or 6 weeks to matriculate in the MD school next year. The DO school cannot replace the student at this point and eats 3 yrs of tuition. Just my 2 cents.

I wasn't advising OP to apply as a 1st year DO student.
I thought OP was still working on the Bachelor's degree. I assumed OP could apply to other medical schools, while hanging on to the promised spot, as a back up.

In fact, when my two 1st year DO classmates announced they were leaving for US MD schools, almost all of the students were surprised.
My DO school's registrar office, probably knew. They most certainly sent some transcripts.

I don't know the details of how they applied, and what they said on their interviews.
I believe the US MD school Adcoms knew they were already 1st year DO students.
I believe then and even now, you have to list every place you earned a course grade.
Why those schools took them, I have no clue.

I'm just telling a real story.

 

[HopeP]

I assumed OP could apply to other medical schools, while hanging on to the promised spot, as a back up.

I believe OP has clarified somewhere in earlier responses, that is not an option.
So Op has 2 options to choose from:

1. Stay foot as it is, accept DO guaranteed seat and matriculate to DO, be a Dr in another 4 years (jumping to MD is not an option as OP hasn't applied to MD/DO through traditional route).
2. Finish UG in 3 years as expected, don't accept DO guaranteed seat (it is a guaranteed seat, which doesn't materialize unless and until OP accepts at predetermined established schedule as part of 7 year BS/DO program), take gap year to boost MCAT, ECs etc. and apply as traditional route candidate 1-2 years from now to MD/DO schools hoping to get a MD admission.

In fact, when my two 1st year DO classmates announced they were leaving for US MD schools,

The scenario that a matriculated DO student jump the ship to MD for w/e reason is a N/A scenario for OP as OP hasn't applied as traditional candidate for MD/DO school yet, rather has a guaranteed seat for DO school as part of 7 year BS/DO program accepted right after high school. OP hasn't followed the guaranteed seat acceptance process yet. It is just confuses everyone due to nuances of how BS/DO process works vis-a-vis traditional process. Hopefully this clears some air.

 

[KnightDoc]

I believe I have seen Goro mention this and that it is something DO schools expect to occur for several students each year. It is not an unusual occurrence and just broadly speaking, an MD seat is better than a DO seat. I don't believe it is unethical and don't believe the DO schools view it as such either.

This^^^^^. On the other hand, charging large, non refundable deposits upon acceptance to hold the seat because it's a sellers' market ....

 

[KnightDoc]

Please re read my post. I was responding to formerf1 who stated 2 of his DO OMS1 classmates applied to MD school while1st yrs and left after getting accepted. Do2021's post and mine will make more sense.

Sorry! I guess the thread has become so long and convoluted that we are now cross posting! You are correct!!!

 

[DO2015CA]

With all due respect, you guys are not fully understanding how these combined programs work. OP wouldn't be taking a seat (or tuition) away from anyone! OP is asking about leaving a program AFTER completing the UG component and BEFORE starting DO. The school would merely fill that seat with a regular admission applicant. She wouldn't be leaving after matriculating in DO school, it wouldn't be considered unethical, there would be no reason to disclose it to other schools, other schools would have no way to know, etc. The issue is merely giving up a guaranteed DO spot to take a shot at MD. None of the other issues are in play!

That’s not what I was doing. The post earlier hinted at starting the DO program while while applying to an MD program. That’s where that comment came from. If you scroll up to my response about about dropping the program being a slap in the face, I said no for this exact reason. They would fill the spot.

Some people have been out of the field for too long. Even some of the adcoms at my school who do interviews don't know the range of the MCAT and refer to it as the "MedMCATS". I've learned to take everything I read on this forum with a grain of salt and do more research.

What would be unethical is leaving after DO school starts since those seats cannot be offered to someone else. Since quite a few DO schools start earlier than MD this happens a lot and 11 students jumped ship at my friend's school a few years ago. Then again most of us would have done the same thing when a 40+ year career is on the line.

I am not so far removed from the application season, I’ve recently enough gone through the match, and my program uses residents as an equal member when voting how to rank applicants. We are in the interviews and the rank meeting. I would say I qualify as a pretty good resource.

 

[Fawna]

Again, my gender is the bigger issue -- I'm just concerned my age, degree, race, etc. may add more reason for patients to distrust me. I've already been told on here that at 19, I am too immature to start medical school. Not to mention isn't the average age of a new doctor 28?

Correcting people to inform them that you are a doctor will happen at 24, 26, 30+,etc. MD or DO.
(Edit: as a female)

 

[Eye-eye]

I feel like this thread has gotten a bit off the original topic...

 

[Ganon]

OP has a 510 MCAT and everyone is turning their nose up at it like it's a handicap. Only on SDN.
To have done that before completing prerequisites is a fantastic feat and shows that OP can likely do what's needed for MD acceptance.

I'm just an M3, but conventional wisdom is that for something like plastics a research year, master's degree, or other notable accomplishment is almost expected, and picking a better-known med school is absolutely in line with that.

It's risky to give up a bird in the hand, for sure! I think, however, a lot of the conservative sentiment from this thread comes from people who think OP would be somehow snubbing their program... As someone who made some sizable "donations" to DO schools for predatory fees prior to my MD accept, my own advice is to do what will be best for your own career while maintaining professionalism.

OP, if I were in your shoes I'd absolutely at least explore what an MD application would look like and check your local schools for their stats and what that would look like. If it appears that your odds of acceptance are high based on hard data, it isn't a bad gambit.

Another reason to explore MD... Shooting my shot by going allopathic is saving me >60k in tuition difference. Every situation is different, but exploring the numbers on that front is wise as well.

 

[Eye-eye]

I'm just an M3, but conventional wisdom is that for something like plastics a research year, master's degree, or other notable accomplishment is almost expected, and picking a better-known med school is absolutely in line with that.

As an M4, I'd mostly agree, but I would argue that a research year, while common, is not expected per se. If you have mediocre step, then yeah, perhaps. But my classmate doing plastics didn't do a year out, and I'm not (ophtho, so similarly competitive) despite a (slightly, slightly below) average score for the specialty. But I have done other stuff that makes my app stand out a bit. Totally agree that you need to do something to stand out.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I’m a DO orthopedic surgeon, and FWIW OP, I have never been asked what a DO is. I have now been on clinical setting for nearly 8 years. I find it amusing that some premeds here think patients/hospitals care. May be for an academic job at ivory tower. But in the community, no one cares. You’ll have no shortage of patients or lack of respect from your MD colleagues. Only thing that’ll matter is your ability to be a good, competent, compassionate physician. That’s all. If you’re good, you’re good.

With that said, yes, it is harder to get into competitive specialties as a DO, although by and large, most MDs also go into primary care/moderately competitive specialties. However, it’s probably better to keep your options open at this stage. You need to figure out if your school will rescind your guaranteed acceptance if you applied out. If they won’t, I would absolutely apply to MD schools.

However, if they’ll rescind your acceptance, you need to be careful. You have pretty good stats but it’s not slam dunk status by any means for MD schools. Also, the reapplication to DO schools may not be easy as you’ll inevitably be asked why you gave up your seat previously. But it’s not unheard of. I had two people in my class who were previously MD students and quit medical school altogether and then reapplied a few years later. I’m sure they got shunned by MD schools and likely had good stats so my DO school took them. N=2 here, but there are quite a few DO schools and your stats are pretty good, so someone will likely take you. But I do agree, it is a risk and you need to understand the ramifications.