Should I take a pay cut to be a VA pharmacist??

[Prepharm1214]

Is it normal for the VA to list a pharmacist opening at only 37$/hr full time? This was the case 2 years ago near me in Ohio.

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[Sabril]

How tough is it to get a job at a VA if one is willing to move anywhere and take a huge paycut? I heard the VA usually only hires pharmacists that did residency with them. Is this true? I can see maybe it is true with clinical and maybe even hospital staff positions. I heard about retail pharmacists landing a job with the VA or some places associated with the VA system, and I wonder what kind of positions would that be.

 

[Saiyo]

How tough is it to get a job at a VA if one is willing to move anywhere and take a huge paycut? I heard the VA usually only hires pharmacists that did residency with them. Is this true? I can see maybe it is true with clinical and maybe even hospital staff positions. I heard about retail pharmacists landing a job with the VA or some places associated with the VA system, and I wonder what kind of positions would that be.

You'd be surprised at how hard it is. I applied to quite a few VA jobs and never heard back from any of them. I got HR referrals for ~80% of them, but couldn't get an interview, even for ones in undesirable locales, undesirable shifts, or multiple openings. I think its mostly luck, submitting the right app at the right time. If you hope to work for the VA someday I would just start applying to any job you wouldn't mind taking.

 

[lord999]

The Trump hiring freeze is solid right now. It would require the VA hiring manager to force HR to override the freeze (most won't do that for people they don't know).

 

[rxdawg21]

The Trump hiring freeze is solid right now. It would require the VA hiring manager to force HR to override the freeze (most won't do that for people they don't know).

What? The va has and continues to hire pharmacist and other medical personnel and assistance

 

[lord999]

What? The va has and continues to hire pharmacist and other medical personnel and assistance

Depends on situation. Right now, all positions get tracked for in step replacements only without going to OHRM as there is a flat headcount limit for VHA. So, if you’re at a station that’s already at a critical MCA headcount, then yes, you can hire up to that capitated amount. Otherwise, each position is a grind. Most positions are purely Title 38 authority (veteran and hard to fill together) rather than initial which excepts them from the competition.

That's better than some areas of Central Office, where there is already a mandated shrink in place.

 

[Sabril]

You'd be surprised at how hard it is. I applied to quite a few VA jobs and never heard back from any of them. I got HR referrals for ~80% of them, but couldn't get an interview, even for ones in undesirable locales, undesirable shifts, or multiple openings. I think its mostly luck, submitting the right app at the right time. If you hope to work for the VA someday I would just start applying to any job you wouldn't mind taking.

Thanks. Were you applying as a retail pharmacist or hospital? I only worked in retail, and when I read some job descriptions for VA outpatient positions, I thought to myself "well, I could qualify for it on paper at least." And if I qualify then almost everyone else would. I know it is a lot about timing and luck, but I just wonder if there are certain things they are looking for when hiring someone from outside of the system.

 

[Saiyo]

Thanks. Were you applying as a retail pharmacist or hospital?

I applied from hospital for inpatient/outpatient positions. From the forums looks like everyone is getting in through retail, but yeah I'd imagine quite a few retail folk are lining up for positions.

 

[Apotheker2015]

You'd be surprised at how hard it is. I applied to quite a few VA jobs and never heard back from any of them. I got HR referrals for ~80% of them, but couldn't get an interview, even for ones in undesirable locales, undesirable shifts, or multiple openings. I think its mostly luck, submitting the right app at the right time. If you hope to work for the VA someday I would just start applying to any job you wouldn't mind taking.

They also like students who did 4th year rotations with them. I know of a few people
Who got an invitation to apply for jobs after their VA rotation.

 

[Kharak]

Civilian military spouses can apply to internal VA postings, correct?

 

[lord999]

Civilian military spouses can apply to internal VA postings, correct?

Depends, yes under Title 10 - 1784 Excepted positions that are normally Title 5, not necessarily if the position is Title 38 (so clinical positions are usually Title 38).

More explanatory answer, Title 38 clinical hires are purely on clinical merit, so they take into account no other criteria except veterans preference points, and those internal postings are only open to current civil service and the rare uniformed billet. What actually happens is the position is advertised under both Title 5 and Title 38, and special authorities provisions track applicants into the Title 38 pool, the Title 5 Excepted pool (Schedule A National Guard), and the Title 10 Excepted pool (National Guard not under Schedule A and spouses). You are more likely though to be hired on Title 38 grounds.

For supervisory or technical positions though, if you do not already hold a Title 5 or Title 10 position, you usually are automatically get disqualified (even as a military spouse) for reasons that you do not have the requisite federal experience to take those positions.

Note that DMDC has to prequalify you beforehand (basically, you need your marriage certificate/CHAMPUS enrollment and your spouse's full current DD-214 submitted in support of the status).

 

[hwcpharmd]

You can add the 10 paid holidays to that salary figure as well (8 hours x your hourly rate x 10 holidays per year...they don't include this money in your salary calculation but you'll see it on your paychecks). I've stayed PRN at CVS for over a year now while working at the VA and I can work as much or as little as I want for them. The flexibility has been great. You'll get 5% 401k match plus a retirement pension with the VA. You can't top that. Pay raises will be higher (mine have been more than double what my CVS pay raises have been....4.5% from VA this year vs. 2% from CVS this year). Your pay will climb quickly. Vaca is better of course as well, and no black out periods for vaca like retail industry does (I couldn't ever request off in December with CVS). Take the job!

Do you work in a hospital or a CMOP?

 

[PromethazineDM]

When I started working for the govt, I took $15000 pretax pay cut. After taking into health insurance, pension, vacaton, better hours, it's alot less than that.

Due to our union raise, our pay matched what outside is offering except for for Kaiser. It is the best decision I've made. Now we get 100s of resume every year to get in. The better hour allow me to pursue side hustle that earn me more money than doing pharmacy alone.

 

[Momus]

Is it normal for the VA to list a pharmacist opening at only 37$/hr full time? This was the case 2 years ago near me in Ohio.

In CA, my friend was making the same as retail rphs with VA 2 yrs ago in Fresno area. So, it's a no brainer if you have a chance to start at VA in your 20s due to pension benefit, and a lot more days off.

 

[johnpharm01]

Old thread but have to offer my 2 cents. As a veteran, a va patient and a former va healthcare provider I would encourage caring pharmacists to seek employment with the VA.

Benefits of working at VA: job security, expanded opportunities in clinical and administration roles, federal torts claim act preventing legal liability, 10 federal holidays, OT at time and a half, regular scheduling, regular raises, vacation at 4/6/8 hours per pay period, sick pay that accumulates indefinitely 4 hours a pay period, 403b and pension, and healthcare in retirement, and a more manageable workload.

The only caveat I can add is do your research and choose a good facility like lord 999 suggested. Some facilities are run poorly resulting in poor care and criminal behavior.

 

[Modest_anteater]

just do it...you can always go back to the factory line later

Actually, Once you go Staff hospital for too long you can't really go back. You will forget a lot of retail stuff and be unable to function at a high enough speed/accuracy +

Spoiler: Trigger warning

age discrimination

 

[Modest_anteater]

Let me know how that works out when you topcode, there is a ceiling actually which is kind of frustrating when you need to recruit Associate Chief and Chief Positions as they are essentially equivalent pay with only differences in retention.

Again, I like the VA and all, but I like to keep it realistic in the sense that there are quite valid reasons (besides the noncompetitive pay) that are worth thinking about before jumping in. My biggest issue is how often pharmacy loses to the bureaucracy over fights like paying for certifications and on quality of work life issues. Also, caring for veterans is a very different proposition than caring for the general public, which is something that I really try hard to get across to prospective pharmacist employees as many quit because they don't quite get it in terms of the increased difficulty from the general community (and you can't kick out a patient and even some things that would probably draw charges, the VA just accepts as part of the illness matters).

The overall compensation is quite fair though, and the work environment and the security of longevity is something good. It's not for everyone, but it is a good job for those willing to work under those circumstances. They are different, not better or worse than retail or institutional. (At one point, the VA was definitely a worse place to work, which is why the old generation that are pre-1994 are pretty lousy around here.)

1. "Also, caring for veterans is a very different proposition than caring for the general public, " I couldn't agree more. while attempting to keep my anti-war bias in check, veterans are basically conditioned to
   Spoiler: Sensitivity Warning

   murder
   and then they have to try to unlearn that training to re-integrate into a non-violent society. I have many horror stories of Vets behaving violent, or selling heroin disproportionate to men or the community at large.
   
   This is an example of a Vet my friend was dating:
   Delmont man sentenced in fatal overdose, stabbing cases
   
   
   Spoiler: Sensitivity Warning

   Over all my view of Vets has been significantly tarnished due to the actions of a minority of them. Another story that sticks out is a Vet telling me he gave a young Iraqi boy a baseball with explosives in it so that when he ran back to his house they denoted it hoping to kill his insurgent father. He would brag about killing kids in Iraq and act up in the class claiming he had some anger illness. I'm sure there are decent Vets but many I have met are truly disgusting people.
   
   Congrats on your new job and I am you like it there.

 

[hwcpharmd]

When I started working for the govt, I took $15000 pretax pay cut. After taking into health insurance, pension, vacaton, better hours, it's alot less than that.

Due to our union raise, our pay matched what outside is offering except for for Kaiser. It is the best decision I've made. Now we get 100s of resume every year to get in. The better hour allow me to pursue side hustle that earn me more money than doing pharmacy alone.

Are you working in a hospital or a CMOP?

 

[PromethazineDM]

Are you working in a hospital or a CMOP?

Hospital inpatient side.

What you do on the side??

I don't want to reveal. It's too identifiable.

 

[Addict2Fitness]

When I started working for the govt, I took $15000 pretax pay cut. After taking into health insurance, pension, vacaton, better hours, it's alot less than that.

Due to our union raise, our pay matched what outside is offering except for for Kaiser. It is the best decision I've made. Now we get 100s of resume every year to get in. The better hour allow me to pursue side hustle that earn me more money than doing pharmacy alone.

I just started at the VA a few weeks ago and have contemplated being a paying member of the union. Have they helped you individually get raises/promotions or is it a general push for all employees in the service? Can you tell me how you've benefited by being a member? I've asked the other pharmacists I work with and it seems to be split half and half and no one has given me a real good reason to join.

 

[rxdawg21]

I just started at the VA a few weeks ago and have contemplated being a paying member of the union. Have they helped you individually get raises/promotions or is it a general push for all employees in the service? Can you tell me how you've benefited by being a member? I've asked the other pharmacists I work with and it seems to be split half and half and no one has given me a real good reason to join.

I've only seen the union help those that are bad at their jobs maintain their jobs. People that routinely abuse work breaks, have bad customer service and attitudes and have no sick leave left and are always using FMLA (which you have to have for each condition you have) and are upset when they don't know the rules and use it incorrectly (try to use it for a condition they don't have covered) and are written up for AWOL.

Typically they help the bad employee by pulling out a hostile work environment on supervisor or race card. We've had several non pharmacy employees that were awful (think janitor, food staff) and didn't remotely do their job just get reassigned when evidence of unacceptable job performance was presented to their service line bosses.

The union is most certainly not going to work for you to get a raise/promotion when you are a gs 12 or 13 as a pharmacist. The union also likes to come to the rescue of those that were "passed over" for job promotions who thought they were entitled to the promotion based purely on seniority. Of course they still don't get the job, just extra paperwork (read headache) for the hiring boss. I find the worst workers we have (abuse breaks/leave, are inefficient, downright wrong clinical judgement) seem to have a warped view of their abilities.

 

[PromethazineDM]

I just started at the VA a few weeks ago and have contemplated being a paying member of the union. Have they helped you individually get raises/promotions or is it a general push for all employees in the service? Can you tell me how you've benefited by being a member? I've asked the other pharmacists I work with and it seems to be split half and half and no one has given me a real good reason to join.

It's a collective bargaining agreement that help all pharmacist get a raise, better working condition and a stronger voice. You are automatically opt-in unless there is a vote which majority favor anti union. They got rid of bureaucracy test that could got us fire, gave us a nice salary bump to be on parity level as retail pharmacist in addition to our annual raise 2%, more paid CE hours. Our union leader surveyed all of us to see which one is the most important matters and try to fight for us. There are plenty of promotion opportunity but most aren't interested due to extra works involved. It's far more lucrative to get a second job, side hustle, or enjoy life.

Yes union can be bad when people take advantage of benefits such as FMLA, vacation, sick, lazy employee, but that's everything in life. No way would I trade it by going back to retail. I've seen so many good pharmacists get abused.

 

[johnpharm01]

The dues for the union is small. All employees benefit by having a union whether they are members or not (union contract). When individual actions disciplinary, grievance etc arise, will being a member of a union help? Maybe. I have seen union reps suck up to management and actually hurt their members, but the opposite is true. I would suggest joining and just trying to do a good job.

And it is a myth that the union only bales out weak employees and they are responsible for causing an organization to fail. Stick around you will see management and HR can be just as big of a problem.

 

[lord999]

I just started at the VA a few weeks ago and have contemplated being a paying member of the union. Have they helped you individually get raises/promotions or is it a general push for all employees in the service? Can you tell me how you've benefited by being a member? I've asked the other pharmacists I work with and it seems to be split half and half and no one has given me a real good reason to join.

I have been offered a job with the VA that would be ~ a 15,000$ pay cut from my current retail floating position. It is daytime hours, and every 6th weekend. These hours appeal to me because I have a 2 year old. I am conflicted because I am currently building a new home and will have increased mortgage costs hitting around September. I have ran all the numbers in my monthly budget and will be able to get by, things will just be tighter. I tried to negotiate pay and submitted pay stubs, but they stuck with their original offer. I was just hoping to reach current VA employees, or other pharmacists that have taken a pay cut that can offer me any advice on this decision.

The union doesn't work that way for the pay raise by Weingarten. I can talk with you about PSB negotiation on step placement privately, but depending on where you are, your hands are tied.

 

[Addict2Fitness]

The union doesn't work that way for the pay raise by Weingarten. I can talk with you about PSB negotiation on step placement privately, but depending on where you are, your hands are tied.

I was placed at step 6. I tried negotiating but they didn’t even entertain it. From what I understand I won’t be eligible for a step promotion for two years. Are there instances where one would be eligible for a promotion sooner? One person had mentioned that board certification would help, however I work in outpatient so would that even help my case?

 

[lord999]

I was placed at step 6. I tried negotiating but they didn’t even entertain it. From what I understand I won’t be eligible for a step promotion for two years. Are there instances where one would be eligible for a promotion sooner? One person had mentioned that board certification would help, however I work in outpatient so would that even help my case?

Steps (in order of precedence):
Experience:
1-3: 1 year
4-6: 2 years
7-10: 3 years


Things for faster steps:
Education:
BC - 2 steps after experience
MS: - 4 steps
PhD - 6-8 steps (almost always set at 10)

Merit:
Paper - 1
5 evaluation - 1 subject to limitations

You're actually on the high end for a from the street appointment. 6 used to be the highest step without upper PSB appeal, so they might have defaulted to that. They don't necessarily have to petition higher for a 12, but for a 13, the VISN (Regional Office) may say no.

 

[Ekbrx]

I just started at the VA a few weeks ago and have contemplated being a paying member of the union. Have they helped you individually get raises/promotions or is it a general push for all employees in the service? Can you tell me how you've benefited by being a member? I've asked the other pharmacists I work with and it seems to be split half and half and no one has given me a real good reason to join.

Hey! Sorry I’ve missed all the action on here have not logged on in a while. I have no personally joined the union yet. It is half and half for us here too. To be honest, I should join I hadn’t yet because of paying off debts etc etc life ya know. But I’m the scheme of things it’s not much money and may give you a little more reassurance. However, the union is super helpful to even non members. Always willing to coach you, and be present if needed. It may be worth asking what is offered to you as a non member just for being an employee. I need to ask too thanks for the reminder. Congratulations on the new job. I staff inpatient once or twice a week and work outpatient as well. Keeps me on my toes!

 

[johnpharm01]

I was placed at step 6. I tried negotiating but they didn’t even entertain it. From what I understand I won’t be eligible for a step promotion for two years. Are there instances where one would be eligible for a promotion sooner? One person had mentioned that board certification would help, however I work in outpatient so would that even help my case?

Talk to your service chief. They have broad authority. There are rules but guess who interprets them? I got a step increase for CGP and board certification I believe might get you two. Also don't focus on the immediate pay raise but being liked and demonstrating skill. There is a lot of vertical mobility in the federal government. Worked with an assistant nursing home manager manager who became nursing home manger then clinic manager then a visn employee. Worked with pharmacy chief that was a clin pharm spec then service chief then visn executive. In the VA you could become a hospital director.

 

[Saiyo]

Yeah waiting 2 years for my $1500 from gaining 1 step feels bad 🙁

I want faster steps too but I think the only thing I can hope for is a QSI . Are they pretty generous with those?

 

[lord999]

Yeah waiting 2 years for my $1500 from gaining 1 step feels bad 🙁

I want faster steps too but I think the only thing I can hope for is a QSI . Are they pretty generous with those?

A 5 is usually an automatic, but there's limitations on the QSI. You're better off writing papers or taking details (immediate step increase).

 

[olliepharm]

Steps (in order of precedence):
Experience:
1-3: 1 year
4-6: 2 years
7-10: 3 years


Things for faster steps:
Education:
BC - 2 steps after experience
MS: - 4 steps
PhD - 6-8 steps (almost always set at 10)

Merit:
Paper - 1
5 evaluation - 1 subject to limitations

You're actually on the high end for a from the street appointment. 6 used to be the highest step without upper PSB appeal, so they might have defaulted to that. They don't necessarily have to petition higher for a 12, but for a 13, the VISN (Regional Office) may say no.

Hi! I am in the early stages of credentialing with a facility and I was trying to follow this algorithm to estimate the step at which I may be started - I won't get an actual salary offer until my credentialing is complete. I know that it's a GS-13 position - I have my PharmD, I am (VA) residency trained, I have my BCPS, and I have 2 years post-residency (non-VA) clinical pharmacy experience. I'm thinking that would be ~8, but I could be very wrong.

 

[lord999]

Hi! I am in the early stages of credentialing with a facility and I was trying to follow this algorithm to estimate the step at which I may be started - I won't get an actual salary offer until my credentialing is complete. I know that it's a GS-13 position - I have my PharmD, I am (VA) residency trained, I have my BCPS, and I have 2 years post-residency (non-VA) clinical pharmacy experience. I'm thinking that would be ~8, but I could be very wrong.

Non-VA (really all non-Federal) experience = 0 (the PSB may consider it if they are feeling generous, but they do not have to)
VA residency training - GS 13, no step
BCPS - 2 steps usually

You should be placed between 2 and 4 to start.

 

[olliepharm]

Non-VA (really all non-Federal) experience = 0 (the PSB may consider it if they are feeling generous, but they do not have to)
VA residency training - GS 13, no step
BCPS - 2 steps usually

You should be placed between 2 and 4 to start.

Thank you very much for clarifying!

 

[lord999]

Thank you very much for clarifying!

Yeah, you should challenge if less than 2, if you get more than 4, consider your PSB very generous (and they may be more generous since you were a resident for the federal system, we treat IHS and DoD with the same courtesy as do they).

By the way, 13 is a terminal rank for clinical pharmacists, so if you want to advance, you either have to become some sort of supervisor (clinical coordinator, RPD, supervisor).

 

[olliepharm]

Yeah, you should challenge if less than 2, if you get more than 4, consider your PSB very generous (and they may be more generous since you were a resident for the federal system, we treat IHS and DoD with the same courtesy as do they).

By the way, 13 is a terminal rank for clinical pharmacists, so if you want to advance, you either have to become some sort of supervisor (clinical coordinator, RPD, supervisor).

I’m actually going back to the VA where I did my residency (and was also previously a VALOR intern and did multiple 4th year rotations), so I’m hoping PSB will take those things into consideration. My former RPD seems to think that I should be started at a 6, but that sounded way to generous too me.

While pay may not be negotiable, I have heard that it is very possible to negotiate leave accrual so that I don’t start at 4 hours per pay period, so I’m hoping to be able to do that.

 

[ValeRx]

I was offered a job with MedCell working as a GS12 on an Army base. Even with five years experience in the civilian sector I was offered Step 1 with no budging from management. It was a 34,000/year pay cut. I turned the position down. Didn't seem worth it to move across the country for a massive pay cut.

 

[lord999]

I was offered a job with MedCell working as a GS12 on an Army base. Even with five years experience in the civilian sector I was offered Step 1 with no budging from management. It was a 34,000/year pay cut. I turned the position down. Didn't seem worth it to move across the country for a massive pay cut.

As a contractor, it's just a bad deal, period. I would agree in your shoes. If you're a contractor, you have to make sure the $ is worth the while (unless it's geography like Rothamsted, Ramstein, or Anzio).

 

[lord999]

I’m actually going back to the VA where I did my residency (and was also previously a VALOR intern and did multiple 4th year rotations), so I’m hoping PSB will take those things into consideration. My former RPD seems to think that I should be started at a 6, but that sounded way to generous too me.

While pay may not be negotiable, I have heard that it is very possible to negotiate leave accrual so that I don’t start at 4 hours per pay period, so I’m hoping to be able to do that.

You're supposed to. If you have three years (not even FT years), you should be set at 6 for leave purposes. But 3-15 years is the same as you know at 6.

 

[ValeRx]

As a contractor, it's just a bad deal, period. I would agree in your shoes. If you're a contractor, you have to make sure the $ is worth the while (unless it's geography like Rothamsted, Ramstein, or Anzio).

I just wish I'd been offered the job at the Pentagon. That would have been pretty cool.

 

[lord999]

I just wish I'd been offered the job at the Pentagon. That would have been pretty cool.

No, you wouldn't. It really sucks to work in the Pentagon unless you have a certain sexual preference per the local joke.

 

[ValeRx]

No, you wouldn't. It really sucks to work in the Pentagon unless you have a certain sexual preference per the local joke.

Well then.. I retract my previous statement!

 

[SlithyTove]

So if you had 3 part-time years at a VA as a student pharmacist (no paid leave accrues during part-time/intermittent employment) and then you get a PGY1 position, you should be getting 6 hours leave accrued per pay period instead of 4 during your residency?

It would be very helpful if someone could provide a source or link for this.

 

[lord999]

So if you had 3 part-time years at a VA as a student pharmacist (no paid leave accrues during part-time/intermittent employment) and then you get a PGY1 position, you should be getting 6 hours leave accrued per pay period instead of 4 during your residency?

It would be very helpful if someone could provide a source or link for this.

No, it's negotiable, and it would not count if it's the summer version only (so all year long, yes). This is in OPM for leave calculations. I forget that VALOR is no longer an all-year program.

 

[olliepharm]

So if you had 3 part-time years at a VA as a student pharmacist (no paid leave accrues during part-time/intermittent employment) and then you get a PGY1 position, you should be getting 6 hours leave accrued per pay period instead of 4 during your residency?

It would be very helpful if someone could provide a source or link for this.

My VALOR program was several years ago when it was a full-year program. So I had one year as a VALOR intern and then a 2nd year as a PGY1 resident.

 

[TheMadPharmacist]

VA of course! Save your mental and physical health for your kid.