Should URM classification be continued?

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Should URM classification be continued?

  • Yes

    Votes: 147 43.5%
  • No

    Votes: 191 56.5%

  • Total voters
    338
We are getting better? Stop listening to the media. Things are horrendous still in America. Have you heard of the kid Treyvon Martin that got murdered? And that's just one in many cases.

I use the generality because the reality says it is. Look at URM in this country and their net income in comparison to white and Asian families. There are significantly many more poor people. And I don't know why people keep pushing in this thread that the disadvantaged box is nearly meaningless and overlooked. Based on what evidence? And based on what evidence are URM taking so many spots? The massive bulk of URM go to HBCs. Until I see evidence that URM outside of HBC are given massive breaks for race alone, I'm going to call it bull. Schools don't keep averages of 3.7 by overloading they classrooms with URM with a 2.0 to 3.4 GPA.

You can't say we aren't better racially than we were 30 years ago, especially when all you have is anecdotal evidence.

And you still aren't getting my point. You list your parents INCOME when you apply. Why say "oh hes a URM, theyre usually poor so he's probably poor" when you have a DIRECT MEASUREMENT of how poor he was. Why use that generality over direct and quantitative measurements?

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All honestly most of you don't plan on practicing in the barrio, hood like I want to... Most URM want to go back to there community.

How many URM applicants are actually from the hood? Where is a URM who grew up in a middle class area likely to go back and practice?


I spent most of my childhood in the hood. Most of the doctors in that area were Indians who promised to practice in underserved areas in exchange for a greencard.
 
You can't say we aren't better racially than we were 30 years ago, especially when all you have is anecdotal evidence.

And you still aren't getting my point. You list your parents INCOME when you apply. Why say "oh hes a URM, theyre usually poor so he's probably poor" when you have a DIRECT MEASUREMENT of how poor he was. Why use that generality over direct and quantitative measurements?

.
 
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damn. I wish I had known it was so easy for me to get into med school. Why, as a black woman, did I even bother working to get that 4.0 and 33 MCAT, all while working a fullt-ime job at a company that I owned? That must explain why there are only 2 black students so far (me and another guy) in my incoming class! In a city that is 80% black! The past few years of my life have been a waste. I could have been straight chillin! I mean, apparently I could have gotten in with so much less.....

I am a failure and have clearly taken the place of a more deserving hypothetical white and/or Asian applicant. After all, aren't all hypothetical white and/or Asian applicants more deserving?

No. We're just waiting for applicants to stop trying to use race to justify their belief that they are entitled to a spot in medical school, and for more people to start taking offense when people suggest that their race has anything to do with them being in medical school.
 
No. We're just waiting for applicants to stop trying to use race to justify their belief that they are entitled to a spot in medical school, and for more people to start taking offense when people suggest that their race has anything to do with them being in medical school.

You make points I can agree with. No one want to looked at as being any less qualified.

The thing is I'm willing to bet a lot have you have never truely lived in a underserved area - and judge from outside looking in. I live in El Paso, TX (close to 85% hispanic). We border Juarez, MX (read the news). To say the people here have the same advantage as -for example - the kid going to a middle class school, in a middle class neighborhood say in the Bay Area/ or Austin is false.

To say that people in El Paso are "dumber" then the Asian/ White kid in the Bay Area is not a good arguement - they had the advantage K-12.

ok I'm done writing, I could go on. I know this was a troll thread, but I feel I can contribute to this debate.
 
No. We're just waiting for applicants to stop trying to use race to justify their belief that they are entitled to a spot in medical school, and for more people to start taking offense when people suggest that their race has anything to do with them being in medical school.

Why would a URM worry about other people's suggestions that their race has anything to do with them being accepted when dealing with a crapshoot like med school admissions? I'm pretty sure most URMs could care less what people think about the spot they have at a med school, do well, and become MDs. Do you think the ORM who has a hook-up because they know some physician affiliated with a school or the dean of admissions is worried about people finding out about that hook-up? Nope.
 
Why would a URM worry about other people's suggestions that their race has anything to do with them being accepted when dealing with a crapshoot like med school admissions? I'm pretty sure most URMs could care less what people think about the spot they have at a med school, do well, and become MDs. Do you think the ORM who has a hook-up because they know some physician affiliated with a school or the dean of admissions is worried about people finding out about that hook-up? Nope.

I was replying to the person who got into medical school with a 4.0 gpa and 33 MCAT while running her own company. I'm inclined to think that she would have gotten into medical school just fine regardless of her race.

But obviously I'm wrong, and the only reason she got into medical school because she is black :shrug:.
 
I'm pretty sure Joe came up with an assay that measures the amount of "intelligentsase," a protein he discovered whose concentration is directly correlated to intelligence. Foolproof.

I learned in Biology 101 that an enzyme's name usually gives a hint of what it does. So if he discovered an enzyme named intelligentsase, it certainly sounds like it acts on intelligence, so I think he's on to something!!!!111 I mean, what are the odds?
 
Out of curiosity, how do you think AA works exactly? The minorities don't just get pooled separately. They are evaluated as individuals with URM status being a factor in the process. Don't you think it is part of their identity and the level of hardship they had to endure to get there? Not taking this into account is pretty ridiculous.

Hey, this might be a good opportunity to see if my understanding is flawed. To my knowledge, AA with the URM factor gives an edge to minority students over OR students. For example--if one was to control for all factors with the only different variable being race--then a URM will be given preferential treatment with the stated goal of increasing diversity.

I also hear some discussions here as well as other sources of trying to make a limit--in which a certain % of students MUST be URM--and that to me is just disgusting.

What upsets me is that being URM does not instantly mean you are truly of that target group. The majority of URM students (again from what I've read) are not even the target population of these programs. The fact that one has gone through college and is at the point of applying would be evidence of that. I feel if a URM had a personal struggle--then that can be elaborated on during the PS thus making the PS the stronger factor in admissions.

Now if one wished to argue that URMs would go back and serve their community--I would be interested in seeing data on this. As the target population of AA seems to be middle class students--which population would they return too?

Lots of my ideas of this also mirror what experience I've had in the business world as a minor background into how I'm thinking/viewing this situation.
 
What upsets me is that being URM does not instantly mean you are truly of that target group. The majority of URM students (again from what I've read) are not even the target population of these programs. The fact that one has gone through college and is at the point of applying would be evidence of that. I feel if a URM had a personal struggle--then that can be elaborated on during the PS thus making the PS the stronger factor in admissions.

What are you trying to say? You are URM but not really a URM? Just because a black guy goes through college and applies to med school he is no longer black? :confused:

You seem to be dodging the point that I have made. Being a URM makes it harder for you to achieve things when controlling for other factors. Regardless of PS, EC's, scores, shouldn't this fact be a factor?
 
What are you trying to say? You are URM but not really a URM? Just because a black guy goes through college and applies to med school he is no longer black? :confused:

You seem to be dodging the point that I have made. Being a URM makes it harder for you to achieve things when controlling for other factors. Regardless of PS, EC's, scores, shouldn't this fact be a factor?

Being short also makes it harder to achieve success when controlling for other factors but there isn't AA for short people. Same for ugly people and fat people. Why pick on race as the litmus test of diversity?

Also how come the same people that support AA by race are the same ones who also say that "race doesn't exist it's just a social construct." Seems like a lot of cognitive dissonance going on :confused:
 
i really don't understand why people keep refering back to socioeconomic status for their arguments for/against URM.
 
Being short also makes it harder to achieve success when controlling for other factors but there isn't AA for short people. Same for ugly people and fat people. Why pick on race as the litmus test of diversity?

Also how come the same people that support AA by race are the same ones who also say that "race doesn't exist it's just a social construct." Seems like a lot of cognitive dissonance going on :confused:

Apples to oranges.
Although, ideally, I am not opposed to giving consideration to any factor that makes it more difficult for an individual to get to that point in their application. However, we do not live in the ideal world and only certain things are possible. Given the circumstance and overwhelming evidence of race being an obstacle I cannot wrap my mind around why people oppose it.

Think about the second part of what you wrote for a second. Personally I don't know if it is a social construct or not. But I do by being born black in America you are at disadvantage relative to white peers. So why not take it into consideration when making an admission decision?
 
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This is too vague... Does being a URM make it harder to make a sandwich? Ride a bike? Get into college? Study? Do research?

...Or just get interviews at business jobs [a la study you cited on page 1].

How do you want me to answer this? Should I go find more research on the specific ways in which social structure in the US disadvantages URMs? The research is there and there is little debate about the validity of its conclusions.
 
How do you want me to answer this? Should I go find more research on the specific ways in which social structure in the US disadvantages URMs? The research is there and there is little debate about the validity of its conclusions.

There definitely is a disadvantage--but this still does not justify giving an individual preferential treatment over it.

The current arguments that I've seen (URMs will go back and work with their community etc) have all been weak and I have not seen substantial evidences. It appears to be more "politically correct." Asian Americans also face challenges and discrimination? Asians from SE Asia surely are at the end of the discriminatory stick----many also had to struggle?
 
How do you want me to answer this? Should I go find more research on the specific ways in which social structure in the US disadvantages URMs? The research is there and there is little debate about the validity of its conclusions.

How come when Asians outscore URM's at every income level and parental education level it has to mean that the societal structure is holding back one minority group but not the other?

Conversely, why should URM's have equal or higher scores as Asians at every income level and parent education level? Why not accept that people are different and not insult the less successful minority group(s) by giving them a handicap and saying it's society's fault they don't have as high success as the other minority group(s)?

score.jpg
 
There definitely is a disadvantage--but this still does not justify giving an individual preferential treatment over it.

The current arguments that I've seem (URMs will go back and work with their community etc) have all been weak and I have not seen substantial pushes. Asian Americans also face challenges and discrimination? Asians from SE Asia surely are at the end of the discriminatory stick----many had also to struggle?
Comparing the circumstance and challenges faced by URM and immigrants from SE Asia is literally compering apples to oranges. I personally did not speak English at all until I was 16 years old so I am pretty familiar with situation faced by many immigrants. I also worked in underprivileged area for several years and I fully support the URM status distinction even though it provides no advantages to applicant such as myself. Basically, here is my opinion: it is harder for them than it has ever been for me.
 
How come when Asians outscore URM's at every income level and parental education level it has to mean that the societal structure is holding back one minority group but not the other?

Conversely, why should URM's have equal or higher scores as Asians at every income level and parent education level? Why not accept that people are different and not insult the less successful minority group(s) by giving them a handicap and saying it's society's fault they don't have as high success as the other minority group(s)?

score.jpg

I am sorry but I am not getting the point you're trying to make. What do SAT graphs supposed to show? Do you want me to bring up the school achievement scores starting in elementary when all the races score at about the same level and ending in high school where there is a huge gap?
 
I am sorry but I am not getting the point you're trying to make. What do SAT graphs supposed to show? Do you want me to bring up the school achievement scores starting in elementary when all the races score at about the same level and ending in high school where there is a huge gap?

My point is that why do you want/expect equality when you're dealing with different groups of people? And why are you implying that the same level of school achievement early should mean the same level later on and anything otherwise means a fault in society? Maybe one minority group develops better in certain aspects than the other. It's like saying in kindergarten the Asian kid could run as fast as the black kid but in high school the Asian kid is now far slower than the black kid. So what? Do we really need to give the Asian kid a head start in the race?
 
My point is that why do you want/expect equality when you're dealing with different groups of people? And why are you implying that the same level of school achievement early should mean the same level later on and anything otherwise means a fault in society? Maybe one minority group develops better in certain aspects than the other. It's like saying in kindergarten the Asian kid could run as fast as the black kid but in high school the Asian kid is now far slower than the black kid. So what? Do we really need to give the Asian kid a head start in the race?

So your point is that those difference are innate? Certain races could simply be naturally better than other in certain things? This presumption is not supported by any recent research. And it is unfortunate to see people falling victim to these arguments and this line of thinking. There are plenty of things written on the subject and you can find enough information to realize why what you're implying is misleading to say the least.
 
Why would a URM worry about other people's suggestions that their race has anything to do with them being accepted when dealing with a crapshoot like med school admissions? I'm pretty sure most URMs could care less what people think about the spot they have at a med school, do well, and become MDs. Do you think the ORM who has a hook-up because they know some physician affiliated with a school or the dean of admissions is worried about people finding out about that hook-up? Nope.

I would care because if someone said I only got into med school because I am hispanic it implies that they do not respect my academic achievements as valid. On the surface I realize that what some person thinks does not matter int he long run and it is best to ignore them,. Yet, being categorized as an "URM pick" erodes confidence in oneself. Personally I would have the same reaction if someone claimed I only got into a school through connections.

Being accepted is something that you earn, and really validates all the effort and struggle that defines a pre-med's life. When people dismiss the acceptance as due to URM or some other uncontrollable factor it eliminates that validation.
 
So your point is that those difference are innate? Certain races could simply be naturally better than other in certain things? This presumption is not supported by any recent research. And it is unfortunate to see people falling victim to these arguments and this line of thinking. There are plenty of things written on the subject and you can find enough information to realize why what you're implying is misleading to say the least.

To deny the genetic component of any phenotype (just like to deny an environmental/societal component of any phenotype) is facetious. An Aboriginal Australian raised amongst Ashkenazi Jews will have about as much success in academics/banking/chess as an Eskimo will have at long distance running if he/she was raised by Kenyans.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1520-iq-is-inherited-suggests-twin-study.html
 
To deny the genetic component of any phenotype (just like to deny an environmental/societal component of any phenotype) is facetious. An Aboriginal Australian raised amongst Ashkenazi Jews will have about as much success in academics/banking/chess as an Eskimo will have at long distance running if he/she was raised by Kenyans.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1520-iq-is-inherited-suggests-twin-study.html

I suggest you read carefully the points made by this guy:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search.php?searchid=18427848

He explains it fairly well.

Also, sorry but the study you cited is fairly laughable and I doubt legitimate.
 
I completely agree with flatearth, URM's are innately less intelligent than non-URM's. It makes perfect sense, this also explains why Africa has no smart people and Asia has no idiots. Poor schools, lack of role models, institutional discrimination, cultural differences--these are all just PC talking points. :rolleyes:
 
I suggest you read carefully the points made by this guy:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search.php?searchid=18427848

He explains it fairly well.

Also, sorry but the study you cited is fairly laughable and I doubt legitimate.

1) Your link leads nowhere

2) Of course that UCLA study is not legitimate. The only legitimate studies are the ones that support your views.

I completely agree with flatearth, URM's are innately less intelligent than non-URM's. It makes perfect sense, this also explains why Africa has no smart people and Asia has no idiots. Poor schools, lack of role models, institutional discrimination, cultural differences--these are all just PC talking points. :rolleyes:

Strawman much? Genetics + environment + society = phenotype. You can't just deny one of them to be PC.
 
1) Your link leads nowhere

2) Of course that UCLA study is not legitimate. The only legitimate studies are the ones that support your views.



Strawman much? Genetics + environment + society = phenotype. You can't just deny one of them to be PC.

Read the study. How large is the sample size? Read the overarching conclusion drawn from it? Does that answer your question?

The guy I was referring to is Narmerguy. He posted on the very top of one of the pages in this thread. You want to read an intelligent opinion on the topic, search some of his posts.
 
How come when Asians outscore URM's at every income level and parental education level it has to mean that the societal structure is holding back one minority group but not the other?

Conversely, why should URM's have equal or higher scores as Asians at every income level and parent education level? Why not accept that people are different and not insult the less successful minority group(s) by giving them a handicap and saying it's society's fault they don't have as high success as the other minority group(s)?
Because you fail to account for society and society's pressures. What are the stereotypes of Asians? Smart? Genius at Calculus? Well mannered? What are the stereotypes of blacks and Hispanics? Lazy, criminals, dumb, cheaters, etc. Money doesn't solve how people see you and act toward you in society because of your skin color. Look at Obama. He's half white and the president, yet just recently we saw some idiots with a bumper sticker saying "don't re-nig in 2012" or Santorum nearly blurt the N-word. You think a black student in a High School will be seen the same as the Asian? Outside stress affects your grades and goals. This is just like when Fox News says Hispanics' focus on the family must be bs because there are so many in gangs. Society counts. It takes a society to raise a child. There are enough studies to know that no one group is inherently smarter or better than another in that sense.
 
Because you fail to account for society and society's pressures. What are the stereotypes of Asians? Smart? Genius at Calculus? Well mannered? What are the stereotypes of blacks and Hispanics? Lazy, criminals, dumb, cheaters, etc. Money doesn't solve how people see you and act toward you in society because of your skin color. You think a black student in a High School will be seen the same as the Asian? Outside stress affects your grades and goals. This is just like when Fox News says Hispanics' focus on the family must be bs because there are so many in gangs. Society counts. It takes a society to raise a child. There are enough studies to know that no one group is inherently smarter or better than another in that sense.

And the way we fix that is by lowering the bar for URM's/raising the bar for ORM's and perpetuating these stereotypes even more? Brilliant!
 
Yes, I am not complaining.

But then you're basically treating the symptom and not the cause. And you're not even treating the symptom correctly because you're just exacerbating it. If the end goal is to get rid of prejudice and racial stereotyping then making it even harder for the more successful minority coupled with making it easier for the less successful minority seems to be the worst way of going about it. People will falsely think that every URM only got in because they're a URM and that every ORM is some super crazy genius who got in despite all the odds stacked against his/her favor. URM's will also think they can rely on AA and don't have to perform to the same level (I personally saw this at my HS) while ORM's are even more pressured to perform at a higher level, further perpetuating the stereotypes.
 
And the way we fix that is by lowering the bar for URM's/raising the bar for ORM's and perpetuating these stereotypes even more? Brilliant!
You know. I heard if you stand in front of the mirror, turn off the lights and say Affirmative Action three times.... an URM will steal your spot in med school. Not sure if it's true, I'm just saying I heard it.
 
But then you're basically treating the symptom and not the cause. And you're not even treating the symptom correctly because you're just exacerbating it. If the end goal is to get rid of prejudice and racial stereotyping then making it even harder for the more successful minority coupled with making it easier for the less successful minority seems to be the worst way of going about it. People will falsely think that every URM only got in because they're a URM and that every ORM is some super crazy genius who got in despite all the odds stacked against his/her favor. URM's will also think they can rely on AA and don't have to perform to the same level (I personally saw this at my HS) while ORM's are even more pressured to perform at a higher level, further perpetuating the stereotypes.
You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope. And people are stupid. If they want to succumb to their racial biases and prejudices and jump to irrational and unfounded conclusions... to each their own. I'll just scut them out when I'm their attending hahaHaHAHA. And my patients tend not to think that way, I'm a beast. If you excel at your job, it will rub off on those you touch. Even the haters.

As far as urms internalizing things and being lazy, I doubt it. The prospect of getting a negative physicianship report and failing to match seemed to be enough motivation for the students that I've known to succeed. ORM and URM alike.

Anyways, seems like you're a premed. Just got into med school. You're definitely feeling yourself right now.... and you should. It's a great time. Enjoy it. Real talk. But you'll see when you start in August or september or whenever you do that the urms in your class do just as well as everyone else while somehow managing to be a bit cooler and better adjusted to life. Anecdotal. But you'll see.

Secondly, you'll realize that med school is not college. USMLE boards are not the MCAT and somewhere in the exhaustion, burnout and struggle to be in the middle of the pack you'll lose the high horse and condescending attitudes towards urms. We all go through the same grueling process. Let the end result do the talking.
 
And the way we fix that is by lowering the bar for URM's/raising the bar for ORM's and perpetuating these stereotypes even more? Brilliant!
Way to create strawman there. URM is not really about fixing that issue. It's about about having a group of physicians representative of the population. Like it or not, race DOES matter for many people receiving health care.


But then you're basically treating the symptom and not the cause. And you're not even treating the symptom correctly because you're just exacerbating it. If the end goal is to get rid of prejudice and racial stereotyping then making it even harder for the more successful minority coupled with making it easier for the less successful minority seems to be the worst way of going about it. People will falsely think that every URM only got in because they're a URM and that every ORM is some super crazy genius who got in despite all the odds stacked against his/her favor. URM's will also think they can rely on AA and don't have to perform to the same level (I personally saw this at my HS) while ORM's are even more pressured to perform at a higher level, further perpetuating the stereotypes.
Well, I am URM and I can tell you straight up that I've never been, nor any of my URM peers, thinking we could bank on the minority status to get there anywhere. For you to try to speak for people that are URM when you're not, is completely offensive. I don't care what you saw in your High School. In my High School I saw many druggie stoner Caucasian people, but do I automatically believe every Caucasian person is like this? You are a racist. You shouldn't say people will falsely believe URM got anywhere because of their race. You should say you believe that. You're now trying to play both sides of the coin. You can't have it both ways. You can't say "lets not have URM because it'll create the wrong impression" and at the same say "lets not let these *****s in because they are intellectually inferior and perpetuating stereotypes." I seriously don't give a F what you or any other racist believes about how I got into college or where I am. I know my life, my struggles, and my hard work.
 
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Way to create strawman there. URM is not really about fixing that issue. It's about about having a group of physicians representative of the population. Like it or not, race DOES matter for many people receiving health care.



Well, I am URM and I can tell you straight up that I've never been, nor any of my URM peers, thinking we could bank on the minority status to get there anywhere. For you to try to speak for people that are URM when you're not, is completely offensive. I don't care what you saw in your High School. In my High School I saw many druggie stoner Caucasian people, but do I automatically believe every Caucasian person is like this? You are a racist. You shouldn't say people will falsely believe URM got anywhere because of their race. You should say you believe that. You're now trying to play both sides of the coin. You can't have it both ways. You can't say "lets not have URM because it'll create the wrong impression" and at the same say "lets not let these *****s in because they are intellectually inferior and perpetuating stereotypes." I seriously don't give a F what you or any other racist believes about how I got into college or where I am. I know my life, my struggles, and my hard work.

:confused: You said that racial inequalities exist because of stereotypes:

Because you fail to account for society and society's pressures. What are the stereotypes of Asians? Smart? Genius at Calculus? Well mannered? What are the stereotypes of blacks and Hispanics? Lazy, criminals, dumb, cheaters, etc. Money doesn't solve how people see you and act toward you in society because of your skin color. Look at Obama. He's half white and the president, yet just recently we saw some idiots with a bumper sticker saying "don't re-nig in 2012" or Santorum nearly blurt the N-word. You think a black student in a High School will be seen the same as the Asian? Outside stress affects your grades and goals. This is just like when Fox News says Hispanics' focus on the family must be bs because there are so many in gangs. Society counts. It takes a society to raise a child. There are enough studies to know that no one group is inherently smarter or better than another in that sense.

Yet you support a practice that blatantly perpetuates such stereotypes. If a golfer has a -12 handicap then of course we are to say that he/she is not as good of a golfer as someone who has a -1 or scratch handicap because if he/she was as good of a golfer then why are they getting a handicap? When you give an entire race or ethnic group such a handicap then it does nothing to change their stereotype and actually hurts it even more because even though there are individuals who would have succeeded without the handicap they still get painted by the broad brush of AA.
 
:confused: You said that racial inequalities exist because of stereotypes:

Yet you support a practice that blatantly perpetuates such stereotypes. If a golfer has a -12 handicap then of course we are to say that he/she is not as good of a golfer as someone who has a -1 or scratch handicap because if he/she was as good of a golfer then why are they getting a handicap? When you give an entire race or ethnic group such a handicap then it does nothing to change their stereotype and actually hurts it even more because even though there are individuals who would have succeeded without the handicap they still get painted by the broad brush of AA.
Yes, I did say that, but YOU are trying to play both sides of the coin. YOU choose to look at minorities as being inferior because of AA. That's all on YOU. Again, there is no gun to the head of ADCOMS forcing them to accept every minority despite grades. These ADCOMS know better than you do, and they search for applicants that can be successful. This is why it's only about 1% higher the URM drop out rate compared to ORM. So again, YOU choose to stereotype them as inferior, so it makes no sense to scrap a policy because ignorant people choose to think in an ignorant way. Reasonable people don't assume every minority is lazy or dumb and believe that AA is a positive thing because it gives an even level playing field to people that have to deal with issues that you don't.
 
Comparing the circumstance and challenges faced by URM and immigrants from SE Asia is literally compering apples to oranges. I personally did not speak English at all until I was 16 years old so I am pretty familiar with situation faced by many immigrants. I also worked in underprivileged area for several years and I fully support the URM status distinction even though it provides no advantages to applicant such as myself. Basically, here is my opinion: it is harder for them than it has ever been for me.

Interesting--thank you. I have learned a bit more about the other side of the argument.
 
Yes, I did say that, but YOU are trying to play both sides of the coin. YOU choose to look at minorities as being inferior because of AA. That's all on YOU. Again, there is no gun to the head of ADCOMS forcing them to accept every minority despite grades. These ADCOMS know better than you do, and they search for applicants that can be successful. This is why it's only about 1% higher the URM drop out rate compared to ORM. So again, YOU choose to stereotype them as inferior, so it makes no sense to scrap a policy because ignorant people choose to think in an ignorant way. Reasonable people don't assume every minority is lazy or dumb and believe that AA is a positive thing because it gives an even level playing field to people that have to deal with issues that you don't.

1) What other conclusion am I supposed to draw from lowering the bar for URM's coupled with raising the bar for ORM's? It basically spells it out for me.

2) Difference in attrition rate is higher than 1% between ORM's/URM's according to this - https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf but the latest data posted was in 1995. Is there anything out that's more recent? Also drop-out rates in general have gone down so even if it is a 1% difference it's still statistically significant.

Anyway this is my last post on this thread. This topic is often sensitive and never leads to anyone's mind being changed. It was pointless of me to even discuss it....but if you can find more recent data I would still appreciate it.

Sorry that I insulted you; that was never my intention.
 
:confused: Yet you support a practice that blatantly perpetuates such stereotypes. If a golfer has a -12 handicap then of course we are to say that he/she is not as good of a golfer as someone who has a -1 or scratch handicap because if he/she was as good of a golfer then why are they getting a handicap? When you give an entire race or ethnic group such a handicap then it does nothing to change their stereotype and actually hurts it even more because even though there are individuals who would have succeeded without the handicap they still get painted by the broad brush of AA.
Truth.

or not. Not at all really. I think I've actually lost intelligents reedin' dat gawbijj.

Chair of Medicine at a Top 5 med school - Black dude.

ahem *Dos Equis voice*
"... He is a member of the Institutes of Medicine...
his bibliography comprises >300 publications...
he won the 2007 Trudeau Medal, the highest honor of the American Lung Association and American Thoracic Society...
he was the past President of the American Thoracic Society (ATS)...
the current Secretary/Treasurer of Board of the American Board of Internal Medicine...
he has been listed on several of the "best doctors" list in America for more than a decade (including "Best Doctors in America" and "America's Top Doctors...
he co-authored 12 books including the acclaimed reference book "Interstitial Lung Disease", now in its 5th edition... "
*-end Dos Equis voice*

The list goes on. Not bad for one of them ignint AA peepull.

But you be the judge.
 
Being short also makes it harder to achieve success when controlling for other factors but there isn't AA for short people. Same for ugly people and fat people. Why pick on race as the litmus test of diversity?

Also how come the same people that support AA by race are the same ones who also say that "race doesn't exist it's just a social construct." Seems like a lot of cognitive dissonance going on :confused:
What if you're short, ugly, fat and black? BAM! Let that picture settle in for a moment...
 
1) What other conclusion am I supposed to draw from lowering the bar for URM's coupled with raising the bar for ORM's? It basically spells it out for me.
I already spelled it out for you multiple times: URM are subject to greater social and economic problems, so logically their grades are going to be a reflection of that struggle.
 
What is wrong with having a physician workforce that reflects the population it serves? Sure, Asians may numerically outcompete everyone, but not everyone in the USA is Asian and wants to see an Asian doctor. People have cultural preferences especially when there is a language barrier.

Furthermore, if somebody is upset about holding back Asians, then why did you leave Asia? That's right, somebody came to America at some point because they thought they had a better chance here. So yeah, America reserves the right to give people that chance.
 
If you look at the statistics. Minorities aren't dramatically more likely to drop out of medical school (saw that it's 1% higher last time I checked) or perform much more poorly than their peers. Most of the older generation of doctors you see got in with stats below what the average D.O. student today has, so this fetishism for 40+ MCATs is really ludicrous.

You sure about that? Granted this is somewhat old, but I seriously doubt the average score for african american students has jumped up an entire standard deviation since 1994.


"Substantial differences in test performances across racial groups on the National Board of Medical Examiners' (NBME) examinations, the USMLE's predecessor, were previously reported.5 In 1988, the overall mean score on NBME Part I was 480; however, African-American students had mean scores that were 100-120 points lower than those for white students. Only limited data on USMLE Step 1 performances by racial groups have been reported. However, analysis of first-time takers (n = 11,279) of the USMLE Step 1 in June 1994 revealed that the mean score for white students was 210, while the mean score for African-American students was 187.2"
 
I'm emailing Obama about this thread right now. You jerks.
 
You sure about that? Granted this is somewhat old, but I seriously doubt the average score for african american students has jumped up an entire standard deviation since 1994.


"Substantial differences in test performances across racial groups on the National Board of Medical Examiners' (NBME) examinations, the USMLE's predecessor, were previously reported.5 In 1988, the overall mean score on NBME Part I was 480; however, African-American students had mean scores that were 100-120 points lower than those for white students. Only limited data on USMLE Step 1 performances by racial groups have been reported. However, analysis of first-time takers (n = 11,279) of the USMLE Step 1 in June 1994 revealed that the mean score for white students was 210, while the mean score for African-American students was 187.2"
This is 18 years old. I would like to see much more recent data before forming a conclusion at this time, but if it's still the case, that's a good point.
 
Apples to oranges indeed. I am South Asian and I agree with what you say. However, though maybe not as significant as URMs, Asians also have their battles. If not for certain aspects of Asian culture, values, ambition, etc, the battles that Asians have in life may have been much similar to those faced by URMs. How else would you explain the fact that many Asians who came to this country with little education, lack of proficiency in English, and with not much more than the clothes on their back ended up surviving and prospering in the US?

Yeah, many people of my race are doctors and nurses. There was a need in this country, and they were brought in to fill it. But thanks to them, the rest of us who are not so well off still get included in the overrepresented minority category.

To suggest that Asians/Indians are exempt from the effects of racism/discrimination is absurd. As a child I was showered with plenty of slurs day after day. My effort to fight back got me my brush with the juvenile justice system. Even today, I continue to receive my share of hate because the color of my skin is brown. Resumes with black sounding names being tossed? You think my Indian name leaves me much better off? If there weren't legal ramifications involved, do you think my resume wouldn't be tossed in favor of a less qualified white applicant?

I'm not against AA. But I will be the first to say that it is not enough. Those who have prospered because of AA need to give back need to become the role models many URM kids are looking for. They need to lead a fight against the destructive culture that keeps others of their race from prospering. Pay it forward. Only then will there be the slightest chance that someday, a black/hispanic kid won't need something like AA to make something of him/herself.
I agree with everything you're saying. I was basically arguing with people who are against AA.
 
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