Should you apply with an assault conviction?

[thatguy117]

Posting for a friend since they do not want to bring this up in real life to an advisor:

Around 5-6 years ago, I was in a bad place and was convicted of simple assault, which is a misdemeanor. I had to show up in court, was placed on probation, the whole deal. I have had a completely clean record since then however, went to community college and then transferred, took the MCAT, etc.

I have heard that assault convictions are typically automatic death sentences for an application. I did not know this before embarking on this journey, and am looking for advice on whether if it is even worth it for me to proceed on this path. Is my application dead on arrival with an assault charge?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

no

 

[thatguy117]

no

No as in he shouldn't apply or the app is not dead on arrival?

 

[chssoccer7]

I don't know the answer to this, so I will leave that to the more knowledgeable people on here. However, what I can definitively say that is that if you are applying to a field where there is an oath to do no harm, you're going to have a tough time explaining a time where you directly did harm. There are stories aplenty of people with various things in their past that are hard to explain though, so I have no idea.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

I mean these days you can get assalt charge for literally anything and it being a misdemeanor sounds much better than a felony which the memory serves is much more of a disqualifier.

You got 6 years of restitution especially if you did community service or anything like that would help.

I'm not an expert but these things are not immediate disqualifiers. But the usual hey be honest about what else you did how you learn from it what you've done and you've got a proven track record making up for it.

But at the end of the day it's like I mean you can get assault for pouring water on someone's head or moving their camera out of the way if they are filming you etc.

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/medical-school-admissions-doctor/articles/tips-for-medical-school-applicants-with-criminal-records

I would wait for it some of the experts to come into you more specific advice, but you can search around the forums.

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

You should talk to an actual lawyer about this. I'm not sure how a state licensing board would look at someone applying for a training license with an assault on their record, even if it's a misdemeanor.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

From Goro:

Read: felony, not a misdemeanor, and even then not necessarily forever.

 

[LunaOri]

You will have to explain the circumstances in your application, so it will depend on the details.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

If it was 5-6 years ago, before you apply, I would contact a criminal defense attorney and talk to them about whether you will qualify to have the offense sealed or expunged.

 

[gyngyn]

I mean these days you can get assalt charge for literally anything

A conviction for assault is a different matter.
It is extraordinarily rare in the applicant pool. I haven't seen one in years. It is so rare that I can remember the details of that case (and I see many hundreds of aps a year!).

That application would go exactly nowhere at our school.

 

[gyngyn]

Posting for a friend since they do not want to bring this up in real life to an advisor:

One of the (many) reasons that advisors are unhelpful is that they are denied significant components of the application.
Applicants fear judgement when judgement is required for informed decision-making.

Those who visit here can feel free to divulge what they fear to share elsewhere. I hope.

 

[thatguy117]

A conviction for assault is a different matter.
It is extraordinarily rare in the applicant pool. I haven't seen one in years. It is so rare that I can remember the details of the case (and I see many hundreds of aps a year!).

That application would go exactly nowhere at our school.

Thank you, this is extremely helpful. So unfortunately I guess this is probably the end of the road for this applicant?

 

[gyngyn]

Thank you, this is extremely helpful. So unfortunately I guess this is probably the end of the road for this applicant?

With the passage of enough time, a compelling narrative and a list that includes every school that might interview him, it might work.
...and the Caribbean will take anybody.

 

[Goro]

Posting for a friend since they do not want to bring this up in real life to an advisor:

Around 5-6 years ago, I was in a bad place and was convicted of simple assault, which is a misdemeanor. I had to show up in court, was placed on probation, the whole deal. I have had a completely clean record since then however, went to community college and then transferred, took the MCAT, etc.

I have heard that assault convictions are typically automatic death sentences for an application. I did not know this before embarking on this journey, and am looking for advice on whether if it is even worth it for me to proceed on this path. Is my application dead on arrival with an assault charge?

DOA at my school until that conviction is at least 10 years old and the applicant has led an exemplary life.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

This is unfortunate for just a misdemeanor.

DOA at my school until that conviction is at least 10 years old and the applicant has led an exemplary life.

For a misdemeanor? Assault doesn't even mean any physical contact was made or injury (that's battery). This could literally just have been a threat or some kind of remark.

Would the pertinents of the case not be looked at at all?

 

[Moko]

This is unfortunate for just a misdemeanor.


For a misdemeanor? Assault doesn't even mean any physical contact was made or injury (that's battery). This could literally just have been a threat or some kind of remark.

Would the pertinents of the case not be looked at at all?

When medical schools get thousands upon thousands of applications every year for a very limited number of seats, the question is why should a school take a risk on someone with an assault conviction when they can admit equally competitive applicants without such blemishes?

The applicant with an assault conviction needs to make a compelling case for why they should get such a chance, which is a tall (but not necessarily insurmountable) task given how competitive this process is. Just my thoughts.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

When medical schools get thousands upon thousands of applications every year for a very limited number of seats, the question is why should a school take a risk on someone with an assault conviction when they can admit equally competitive applicants without such blemishes?

I had thought about that in my last post, but the term holistic review is constantly being touted. A blemish is an opportunity for growth and perspective few others may have.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

Just as an addendum to my other thoughts, I'm well aware this is not a fair process and schools should be able to take who they want and for whatever reasons they want. And screening is a necessity.

But my second thought now is that many places tout holistic review, yet people have to come here for common questions when some transparency on the websites should be able to direct people.

Here we are talking about a misdemeanor assault, which could very well be leaving an angry voicemail on someone's phone saying "if you don't stop calling me I'm going to come kick your ***." If this is not pertinent information then schools should have clear language on who should bother applying, and the holistic review addage is misleading.

I know everything isn't a perfect process and schools have a million other things to do, but that's some of the point for this place is for everyone to do better and help shape policies and opinions for the future.

And to the experts here who volunteer their time have to get into so many conversations over and over again and your time is valuable and should be respected.

 

[Moko]

I had thought about that in my last post, but the term holistic review is constantly being touted. A blemish is an opportunity for growth and perspective few others may have. But my second thought now is that many places tout holistic review, yet people have to come here for common questions when some transparency on the websites should be able to direct people. Here we are talking about a misdemeanor assault, which could very well be leaving an angry voicemail on someone's phone saying "if you don't stop calling me I'm going to come kick your ***." If this is not pertinent information then schools should have clear language on who should bother applying, and the holistic review addage is misleading.

A few thoughts:

• Being "holistic" (I agree this term is overused) does not mean anything goes. I'm not a picky eater, but I draw the line somewhere between a kangaroo and horse (depending on the circumstances). That I have a strong aversion against eating certain animals does not necessarily make me a picky eater.
• Medical schools actively seek out individuals of diverse backgrounds. However, just because something is 'unique' does not necessarily make it a desired or sought after experience despite it offering a "perspective few others may have." On the extreme end, there's murder, pedophilia, rape, etc. Assault is somewhere in the middle of this spectrum of undesirability.
• I don't think most adcom members (myself included) understand the legal nuances between harassment, violent threats, assault, battery, etc. as you described above.
• Not all convictions are created equal: a conviction for disorderly conduct during a civil rights protest is viewed very differently than the same conviction for a bar fight or voter intimidation (politics aside). So context does matter ("holistic!"), but most convictions simply can't be turned into a positive - at least for application purposes.

Ultimately, this conviction is not necessarily a deal breaker (can be overcome with time, redemption, and/or other extraordinary achievement), but there are significant hurdles that need to be overcome. Just my thoughts.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

• I don't think most adcom members (myself included) understand the legal nuances between harassment, violent threats, assault, battery, etc. as you described above.

Ultimately, this conviction is not necessarily a deal breaker (can be overcome with time, redemption, and/or other extraordinary achievement), but there are significant hurdles that need to be overcome. Just my thoughts.

Thank you for your thoughts and I respect them and can agree.

I think that is my ultimate thesis here is with the paradigm shift of everyone having cameras and rates of convictions increasing for very minor instances, that there is possible room for improvement for people to have a better understanding of certain legal terminology and their implications. (I can think of one instance recently where someone sent a TEXT and was charged with attempted murder. Yikes!)

I'm certainly not a lawyer and don't claim to have a deep understanding. And I certainly appreciate all of the forward progress that has been happening in the medical education world.




I appreciate everyone taking the time to listen and respond to me, and hopefully this thread will be good for posterity sake for others since this is not a super common situation that everyone sees around here.

It sounds like OP still has options, and perhaps should reach out to schools to gauge their opinion prior to application. Since we don't have a ton of details about the situation or their timeline.

 

[Med Ed]

Would the pertinents of the case not be looked at at all?

Sure. The applicant would explain the incident and the explanation would get read. But you're probably looking at a simple assault conviction being the product of a fairly concerning incident, or the result of pleading to a lesser charge. Either way it's really easy to toss the app in the trash and move on to the next 3,000 applications.

 

[Just D.O. it]

This is unfortunate for just a misdemeanor.


For a misdemeanor? Assault doesn't even mean any physical contact was made or injury (that's battery). This could literally just have been a threat or some kind of remark.

Would the pertinents of the case not be looked at at all?

Medical school applicants get tossed for getting too many Bs. This person's app will state they are a convicted criminal for a rather nasty sounding offense. What do you think are the realistic odds that an adcom even hesitates to toss the app, let alone look at the pertinents and seriously consider overlooking it? Maybe if they were some sort of once in a blue moon prodigy with several first author publications in Nature, but just as a run of the mill standard applicant? forget it.

Lets say, for the sake of a hypothetical, they somehow manage to get into medical school. Even that doesn't mean they are in the clear, the issue will come up again when they are trying to get into a residency program. I believe somewhat recently there was a very unfortunate incident with a medical student who took her own life because she was unable to match due to her criminal record. Her offense was a victimless drug charge if I recall correctly, and even so she was empty handed after years of trying to match.

OP, I strongly advise your friend to do something else. There is very very little chance of someone with that kind of mark against them managing to have a medical career.

 

[thatguy117]

Medical school applicants get tossed for getting too many Bs. This person's app will state they are a convicted criminal for a rather nasty sounding offense. What do you think are the realistic odds that an adcom even hesitates to toss the app, let alone look at the pertinents and seriously consider overlooking it? Maybe if they were some sort of once in a blue moon prodigy with several first author publications in Nature, but just as a run of the mill standard applicant? forget it.

Lets say, for the sake of a hypothetical, they somehow manage to get into medical school. Even that doesn't mean they are in the clear, the issue will come up again when they are trying to get into a residency program. I believe somewhat recently there was a very unfortunate incident with a medical student who took her own life because she was unable to match due to her criminal record. Her offense was a victimless drug charge if I recall correctly, and even so she was empty handed after years of trying to match.

OP, I strongly advise your friend to do something else. There is very very little chance of someone with that kind of mark against them managing to have a medical career.

Thank you for the advice, will pass it on!