Snitching on someone who lied on AMCAS?

[music2doc]

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My comment went over your head. You take risks in life at various stages of life. Some times it comes back to bite you in the ass. When you joke about others being unemployed nobody is going to have sympathy for you when you get sued. That is the basics of life goes around and comes around. That is why there is a saying 'paying it forward.'

No, it didn't go over my head. I simply find your statement entirely without merit. There must be a method of action for something like this to occur (e.g., through networking, gossip, etc.). Unless you're an a**hole and establish a poor reputation, others aren't going to treat you poorly. Your "what goes around comes around" argument is completely irrelevant if something is reported anonymously. That is, in fact, the purpose behind anonymous reporting.

 

[music2doc]

You still don't get it. Go ahead and report as an "anonymous" person but don't come bitching and crying to anybody if anyone ever reports you using "anonymous." That is 'life goes around and comes around.'

That occurs regardless. There is no connection. You are reading a pattern into something where there is no pattern. It's a known psychological deficit inherit in human nature (i.e., inherit in how human beings process stimuli) known as apophenia.

The Journal of Neuroscience, 2000, 20:RC64:1-4 RAPID COMMUNICATION The Left Hemisphere's Role in Hypothesis Formation

ABSTRACT In a probability guessing experiment, subjects try to guess which of two events will occur next. Humans tend to match the frequency of previous occurrences in their guesses. Animals other than humans tend to maximize or always choose the option that has occurred the most frequently in the past. Investigators have argued that frequency matching results from the attempt of humans to find patterns in sequences of events even when told the sequences are random. There is independent evidence that the left hemisphere of humans houses a cognitive mechanism that tries to make sense of past occurrences. We performed a probability guessing experiment with two split-brain patients and found that they approximated frequency matching in their left hemispheres and approached maximizing in their right hemispheres. We obtained a conceptual replication of that finding on patients with unilateral damage to either the left or right hemisphere. We conclude that the neural processes responsible for searching for patterns in events are housed in the left hemisphere. In a variety of such guessing experiments, humans typically exhibit frequency matching. That is if the lights to the two sides are presented with probabilities p and (1 p), the subjects guess the two lights with probabilities p and (1 p) (Humphreys, 1939 ; Estes, 1961 ). The tendency to match frequency has intrigued investigators because it is a nonoptimal strategy for this paradigm. Maximizing, or choosing the most frequent option all of the time, yields more correct guesses than matching as long as p 0.5. In other words, if the red light occurs with a frequency of 70% and a green light occurs with a frequency of 30%, overall accuracy will be highest if the subject predicts red all of the time (maximizing). Frequency matching will lead to correct answers 58% of the time (0.7 * 0.7 + 0.3 * 0.3). Maximizing will lead to correct answers 70% of the time (0.7 * 1.0 + 0.3 * 0.0). Interestingly, most other animals maximize in such paradigms (Hinson and Staddon, 1983 ). So why do humans choose a less optimal strategy than rats? Our view is that humans believe there is a pattern, even if told the sequence is random, and they attempt to figure out the pattern. Any reasonable pattern hypothesized by the subjects would have to match frequency if it were to be a correct hypothesis. Perhaps animals other than humans adopt a more optimal strategy than humans in this paradigm, because they are not as hindered by the tendency to search for and posit causal hypotheses.

The evolution of superstitious and superstition-like behaviour

Superstitious behaviours, which arise through the incorrect assignment of cause and effect, receive considerable attention in psychology and popular culture. Perhaps owing to their seeming irrationality, however, they receive little attention in evolutionary biology. Here we develop a simple model to define the condition under which natural selection will favour assigning causality between two events. This leads to an intuitive inequality—akin to an amalgam of Hamilton's rule and Pascal's wager—-that shows that natural selection can favour strategies that lead to frequent errors in assessment as long as the occasional correct response carries a large fitness benefit. It follows that incorrect responses are the most common when the probability that two events are really associated is low to moderate: very strong associations are rarely incorrect, while natural selection will rarely favour making very weak associations. Extending the model to include multiple events identifies conditions under which natural selection can favour associating events that are never causally related. Specifically, limitations on assigning causal probabilities to pairs of events can favour strategies that lump non-causal associations with causal ones. We conclude that behaviours which are, or appear, superstitious are an inevitable feature of adaptive behaviour in all organisms, including ourselves.

It is also noteworthy that such a belief could quickly lead to the Just-World Fallacy....



That all said, perhaps you mean simply that if someone reports you anonymously and you have done so in the past then you have no "right" to complain about it. That is, however, false. Unless you go around telling people you've reported someone, no one is going to ever connect the two events. You reported anonymously because you didn't want trouble for it. You would be an idiot to go around advertising what you did anonymously. Honestly, it all comes down to your reputation. If you act in a manner above reproach and don't go around boasting about how you reported someone and don't act like an arrogant a**hole, no one is going to think of you negatively (or if they still do, it was probably due to something you had no control over to begin with).

 

[SLC]

You still don't get it. Go ahead and report as an "anonymous" person but don't come bitching and crying to anybody if anyone ever reports you using "anonymous." That is 'life goes around and comes around.'

Keep your nose clean, and your morals and ethics about you and you'll never have much to worry about.

You'll understand when you've matured a bit.

Doctors who are dishonest, who try to cover their mistakes and weaknesses, who have a tendency for fabrication; these are doctors who end up getting sued, losing licences, and harming people.

I see this as a matter of duty. And the fact that my apparent future colleagues either can't understand this, or don't see it as a problem is more than just a little bit concerning. We're up against some difficult times, public perception of physicians is at an all time low, and people here are advocating the position that it's best to turn a blind eye to lapses in moral judgement.

Fast forward 15 years and imagine yourself as this girl's colleague. She's just killed a patient because she showed up to the ER a little buzzed. Do you keep your mouth shut? Now imagine you did and she's going around bragging about it, what now?

Not only do I think this girl isn't fit for medicine, but anyone who thinks this isn't a big deal probably isn't eithe, and I don't mind saying it. Not because of what she did, but what she may develop a pattern of doing in her career.

Physicians have a great deal of privilege. As a physician, people will trust you with things they won't even tell their spouses, that kind of trust requires a great deal of integrity IMO.

 

[chiapet874]

Congrats, you searched Google or took a college course...

As I have stated before, life goes around and comes around. You will learn the realities of life later on.

The realities of life is that life isn't fair or balanced. You still have much to learn. What goes around, does NOT always come around.

 

[dartmed]

It's interesting to see that people keep using karma as a reason for you not reporting this individual. This argument is farthest away from the truth.

Here's the thing: if a patient died on your watch and the attending covered the story up, would you not report the attending? Personally, I would definitely report him and make sure that he lost his license. Yes, mistakes happen. Most of the time they are forgivable, but lying to a patient's family about how their loved one died is unforgivable.

Similarly, would you not report someone who unfairly got into medical school because of he or she lied on an application? What if she stole a spot from someone who actually deserved it? Who actually busted his ass to volunteer?

And people keep misusing karma. There is good karma and there is bad karma (this is coming from a person who is Indian/Hindu), and good karma occurs when you do a deed that is worthy. Now, reporting someone who is a cheat is considered good karma...if you believe in this stuff.

Again, you cannot turn your head away from injustice, and pretend this did not take place...whether it is true or not...that's up to AMCAS to decide. You report what you hear, and that's your moral duty.

Truly, I am saddened by the fact that people on SDN just keep saying ignore what she said. If she had not told anyone that she lied, then you can ignore/not pry into her business. But, when she yapped about this, it automatically becomes your moral business.

I have always wondered why physicians witnessing Abu Ghraib were quiet..maybe if they stood up to the military guards, just maybe we could have prevented such torture. Never turn your head away from injustice.

 

[music2doc]

Congrats, you searched Google or took a college course...

As I have stated before, life goes around and comes around. You will learn the realities of life later on.

Do you have any actual life experience or are you some snotty-nosed kid that just graduated college and ended up as the Assistant Manager at a run-down McDonald's for 3 months before getting canned after one of your subordinates complained about you?

I've got a few years of work experience and while I get what you are saying, it simply does not match my work experience. I'm a non-trad. I've seen how the world works. I know how easy it is to see patterns that aren't really there but the fact is if you stay above reproach and aren't always complaining, etc., people will take you seriously when you do file a complaint and you should do so when you see someone acting in a dangerous manner. It's your duty. If you're not willing to advocate for your patients and protect them from your colleagues, you frankly do not belong in any career field that places people's lives in your hand. End of story.

 

[mafunk]

And people keep misusing karma. There is good karma and there is bad karma (this is coming from a person who is Indian/Hindu), and good karma occurs when you do a deed that is worthy. Now, reporting someone who is a cheat is considered good karma...if you believe in this stuff..

With respect this is not accurate at all. I studied at an Ashram with those who are Hindu scholars. While I too misuse the words 'karma' ... 'good karma'... 'bad karma'. This is not actually correct.

The goal of life is to reach transcendence. To reach transcendence we are supposed to free ourselves from ALL karma... yes... all karma.

To free ourselves from Karma we have to avoid taking actions that require an equal and opposite reaction... which is an extremely difficult thing to do.. I suppose that is why all of us poor slops are caught in the karmic cycle 😉

And I think that 'snitching' on someone for lying about their volunteer hours is most definitely something that gets you unnecessarily involved in anothers karmic cycle. Let that person who lied get caught in their own karmic cylce... they will get caught for lying, as all references are checked. The person who says that one should report it because when you are a doctor if another doctor hurts a patient you should report it... is comparing apples to oranges.

 

[chiapet874]

I graduated a few years ago and make just over $170k/year in medical sales. By all means, feel free to think you understand life better.

This post by itself reveals your true nature and shows you don't know ****.

 

[V5RED]

You still don't get it. Go ahead and report as an "anonymous" person but don't come bitching and crying to anybody if anyone ever reports you using "anonymous." That is 'life goes around and comes around.'

Stupid or troll?

This karma idea creates a paradox.(edit: I am referring to how karma is being defined on this thread, not the Hindu karma)

If you do bad things, bad things will happen to you.

If you do not do bad things, then bad things will not happen to you.

There had to be a first bad thing done to someone. Given that this was the first bad thing done to anyone, it must have been done to someone who had not done anything bad. If that person had not done anything bad, then how could the bad thing have been done to him?

note: I am using the term bad in a general sense. I am not saying that turning in a person who claimed to have done work she never did is bad.

 

[music2doc]

Mark the words: Encouraging the OP's tattling gene to be expressed now will make her a treat to be classmates with in med school.

I can see one of her MS3 threads now: "This guy I am on rotation with left 5 minutes early today -- he bragged that he had to go pick up his kids from daycare -- should I report him to the attending?"

The tattling gene is known to mutate spontaneously once activated.

haha... well, in that case, the OP would need to learn to practice some discretion. Common sense is important. That said, I would hope OP is developing and maturing enough to know better than to report something like that with a valid reason for leaving (as well as being an insignificant amount of time -- 5 minutes early is less than most businesses even consider significant on the time clock).

 

[dartmed]

Mark the words: Encouraging the OP's tattling gene to be expressed now will make her a treat to be classmates with in med school.

If allowed to go down this path, I can see one of her future-MS3 threads now: "This guy I am on rotation with left 5 minutes early today -- he bragged that he had to go pick up his kids from daycare -- should I report him to the attending?"

The tattling gene is known to mutate spontaneously once activated.

That wasn't called for Frazier.

Would you not report someone who faked his qualifications?

 

[dartmed]

Someone please lock this thread. It's getting out of hand.

 

[scarshapedstar]

Why even bother going to medical school? Just print a fake degree and if anyone snitches, karma will take care of them.

Besides, everyone does it.

 

[SnappleApple]

This thread is funny......18-22 year olds trying to tell us "older" people about how life works...lol.

This comment is funny... someone who claims to be an older person actually seems to care what 18-22 year olds think.

 

[WTEngel]

Say you have graduated medical school and are now in residency, when the following scenario occurs:

Your fellow resident fabricates H&P data on a patient chart because they are very busy, forgot to ask a few questions, and do not have time to go back and repeat the H&P. No harm comes to the patient.

Do you report your fellow resident, or "let karma get them" because you do not want to ruin their career?

What if it was the same situation, but the patient was harmed as a result?

What if it was the same situation, but the patient was a family member?

The bottom line is, if you have a different answer for each of the scenarios, then you have a flawed moral compass. People who are dishonest should be held accountable, regardless of whether it was a lie that caused harm, or a lie of convenience. One thing I have noticed, especially working in healthcare, a person will continue to lie until they are held accountable, or their lies are uncovered because they caused injury or harm.

Anyone choosing to go into medicine should be beyond reproach when it comes to honesty. At the core, that is one of the most valuable qualities we bring to the table with our patients.

A person being dishonest for any reason, let alone to gain benefit or appear more competitive, is absolutely unacceptable. For those of you who want to allow karma to take its course, does it make any difference that a dishonest person may commit additional acts of dishonesty that may be less innocuous in nature between now and when karma has a chance to catch them? What if the next time they are dishonest it results in harm?

The situation that the OP states is not as serious as causing a patient harm, but for those of you worried about "ruining" the life of the person in question, what if that person beat out just one other applicant because of the lies they told? Where is the compassion for that person's life? They now may have to re-apply, suffer financial loss, incur unnecessary family stress, etc.

If you are aware of someone being blatantly dishonest, and you do not hold them accountable, then you are complicit and in my opinion just as culpable for the result.

Anyone who wants to give this person a pass and not hold them accountable is a coward and taking the easy way out.

 

[EBTrailRunner]

This thread has gone Lord of the Flies status.

 

[Alejandro]

Wow. Funny thread. This kinda reminds me of the "Would you tattle on your colleague" ethics case...heh

I probably wouldn't, just because it isn't worth the time. Just make sure you become a better physician and take care of your patients better than that piece of #%@$.

 

[mafunk]

Anyone who wants to give this person a pass and not hold them accountable is a coward and taking the easy way out.

I hear you and trust me... I'm almost always the one to stand up in the face on injustice... when someone is in trouble and can not defend themselves ... but I don't think that is the situation here

1) Everyone seems to be forgetting. If this girl lied about her extracurriculars it will come out when her references are checked.

2) The OP's question seemed more about 'snitching' so the girl would not get an unfair advantage then it did about protecting future patients. To 'snitch' about lied volunteer hours to ensure competitive standing is petty cowardice IMHO. But maybe I'm wrong? Maybe the OP really cares about future patients... but given the clear conflict of interest here I doubt OPs intentions are purely lacking in self interest


For those of you who are adamant about 'snitching' on this girl who lied about her volunteer hours. Would you snitch on a dr or med student who cheats on their spouse? Clearly someone who is willing to violate the trust of their life partner would have no problem violating the trust of coworkers or patients. Is it your business to tell the betrayed spouse?

 

[dartmed]

Say you have graduated medical school and are now in residency, when the following scenario occurs:

Your fellow resident fabricates H&P data on a patient chart because they are very busy, forgot to ask a few questions, and do not have time to go back and repeat the H&P. No harm comes to the patient.

Do you report your fellow resident, or "let karma get them" because you do not want to ruin their career?

What if it was the same situation, but the patient was harmed as a result?

What if it was the same situation, but the patient was a family member?

The bottom line is, if you have a different answer for each of the scenarios, then you have a flawed moral compass. People who are dishonest should be held accountable, regardless of whether it was a lie that caused harm, or a lie of convenience. One thing I have noticed, especially working in healthcare, a person will continue to lie until they are held accountable, or their lies are uncovered because they caused injury or harm.

Anyone choosing to go into medicine should be beyond reproach when it comes to honesty. At the core, that is one of the most valuable qualities we bring to the table with our patients.

A person being dishonest for any reason, let alone to gain benefit or appear more competitive, is absolutely unacceptable. For those of you who want to allow karma to take its course, does it make any difference that a dishonest person may commit additional acts of dishonesty that may be less innocuous in nature between now and when karma has a chance to catch them? What if the next time they are dishonest it results in harm?

The situation that the OP states is not as serious as causing a patient harm, but for those of you worried about "ruining" the life of the person in question, what if that person beat out just one other applicant because of the lies they told? Where is the compassion for that person's life? They now may have to re-apply, suffer financial loss, incur unnecessary family stress, etc.

If you are aware of someone being blatantly dishonest, and you do not hold them accountable, then you are complicit and in my opinion just as culpable for the result.

Anyone who wants to give this person a pass and not hold them accountable is a coward and taking the easy way out.

Excellent points. 👍👍👍👍

 

[MiracleforMD]

Most crimes, no; however, a few actually DO have such a legal requirement (some for everyone, others for specific professions). A brief summary for North Carolina is as follows:

I see your point, but I think we can both agree the laws you listed are more about protecting those who can't necessarily defend for themselves/severely vulnerable (children, elderly, demented, etc.). Still a fair point though.

You mean an act of Congress? Doesn't exist, but then it doesn't have to. If you are found to have witnessed a felony and told no one, you are an accessory to said felony.

Good luck arguing that, e.g., there's no 'law' requiring you to report seeing somebody cut up a body and feed it to pigs.

However, this doesn't apply to jaywalking and such.

This however, is false. If I witnessed someone gun down 5 people and then "feed them to the pigs," I have no obligation to report it. If questioned by any authority investigating the matter (FBI, DEA, police, grand jury, whatever), and I lied or was not fully truthful in any way, you damn well better be expecting obstruction of justice charges. But to think that not reporting something voluntarily is a prosecutable offense is kind of poor perspective. Would I personally turn someone in who was supplementing pig feed with toes and fingers? See my previous post.

In this county there is a enormous difference between voluntarily reporting something and not answering truthfully when being formerly questioned. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that AMCAS has not contacted OP about said applicant and proceeded with a formal questioning. I do not think that any Obstruction of Medical School Admissions charges are anywhere in OP's foreseeable future.

 

[music2doc]

I hear you and trust me... I'm almost always the one to stand up in the face on injustice... when someone is in trouble and can not defend themselves ... but I don't think that is the situation here

1) Everyone seems to be forgetting. If this girl lied about her extracurriculars it will come out when her references are checked.

References are rarely checked by med schools. If they were, this would be even more a simple question of doing what is right (i.e., no practical value; simply an issue of principle).

2) The OP's question seemed more about 'snitching' so the girl would not get an unfair advantage then it did about protecting future patients. To 'snitch' about lied volunteer hours to ensure competitive standing is petty cowardice IMHO. But maybe I'm wrong? Maybe the OP really cares about future patients... but given the clear conflict of interest here I doubt OPs intentions are purely lacking in self interest

True, but I think many of us would hope the OP might grow to understand the true issue here and not simply focus on competition.

For those of you who are adamant about 'snitching' on this girl who lied about her volunteer hours. Would you snitch on a dr or med student who cheats on their spouse?

This is a different issue entirely. It does indicate problems but usually there are underlying causes within the marriage for such cheating.

Clearly someone who is willing to violate the trust of their life partner would have no problem violating the trust of coworkers or patients. Is it your business to tell the betrayed spouse?

No, but if it were a close friend (as well as a colleague), a conversation might be appropriate. This would depend upon many other circumstances and is an entirely different type of case from either the OP's or patient care.

 

[WTEngel]

For those of you who are adamant about 'snitching' on this girl who lied about her volunteer hours. Would you snitch on a dr or med student who cheats on their spouse? Clearly someone who is willing to violate the trust of their life partner would have no problem violating the trust of coworkers or patients. Is it your business to tell the betrayed spouse?

I understand your point, and well played.

The argument is apples and oranges for a couple of reasons.

First, telling the spouse in your example is not going to have a bearing on patient safety. Therefore no, I would not tell the spouse, I would not get involved, and I would not partake in discussions involving this person's "EC activities."

Would I tell the hospital or academic administration that this person was cheating on their spouse? No, because there is no policy that states infidelity as not being allowed. The school and hospital does not formulate policy to control personal matters outside of work.

Is there a policy that says it is wrong to fabricate any portion of your medical school application, a patient's chart, or other official document? Yes, and that is why I can adamantly say yes, I would report the person for lying on their application, and no, I could care less and it is not my business if they are cheating on their spouse.

The difference is in the OP's example, the person is breaking a policy. A set in stone regulation to which we are all accountable.

In your example, the person is just being a total douche bag.

 

[WTEngel]

I will also add that the whole idea of being anonymous is ridiculous too. Who cares if people know you held your fellow colleague, classmate, or other professional accountable?

I currently work as a flight paramedic. One of the reasons I take such a serious stance on this is that we are trained to recognize that major patient errors and most major aircraft incidents do not result from a person intentionally trying to inflict harm. They result from a complacent attitude, in an environment where people are not held accountable to policy and procedure, and peers are not bold and professional enough to stand up when they see something wrong.

Am I advocating for a world of snitches? Absolutely not. What I am advocating for is a professional environment where professionals are proud to always do the right thing, the right way, every time, and those who intentionally do the wrong thing, are ostracized to the point they change, or leave. An environment where pointing out that someone is not doing the right thing is embraced as a protective act, not "being a tattle tale." This environment is fostered by promoting accountability amongst professionals to process and procedure.

If you are not bold and diligent enough to hold your peers accountable for small breaches in policy and procedure, what makes you think you can hold them accountable for larger lapses in professional judgement?

So, to reiterate my original point, we prevent major medical errors and avoid horrific crashes by participating in an environment that ranks small policies and procedures just as important as large ones. An environment that considers a small lie or lapse in judgement a gift, because it exposes a weakness that could ultimately lead to a larger lie or lapse in judgement. An environment where professionals act as professionals, and those who intentionally circumvent policy and procedure are held accountable, before they have the chance to harm someone.

For those of you who want to know more about this, it is called "Just Culture" and it is becoming a very big deal in healthcare. I suggest you look into it, as hospitals across the nation are beginning to institute "Just Culture" education, and taking it very seriously.

 

[mafunk]

For those of you who want to know more about this, it is called "Just Culture" and it is becoming a very big deal in healthcare. I suggest you look into it, as hospitals across the nation are beginning to institute "Just Culture" education, and taking it very seriously.

Yes... I find it rather perplexing to tell you the truth. I have a really hard time with this.

One of the fav med school questions is would you report a classmate that you suspected of cheating on a test?

We are all expected to answer... absolutely yes...no question. I think this is trying to turn morality into a simple black and white compass. When in fact life... people... situations are for more complicated than that. I don't think it is that simple. Would I report a classmate that perved on a patient or spoke abusively to a patient? absolutely, as that is predatory behavior! Would I report some kid (fellow premed) that cheated on one math test? or smoked a joint? or drank under age? Probably not, as those are the mistakes of many immature youth..

Our society has become far too litigious and punitive.... it is harming our youth... harming our medical system... harming our schools... and I do not support it at all. Some dumb kids makes a mistake and they expel them.. throw them in jail... etc. The person then gets caught in 'the system'.

I am a bleeding hear liberal Christian and do not believe in all this punishment. I would far rather focus my energy on building and healing people, which is why I'm getting into medicine. AND is exactly why I will be a good doctor. My patients all deserve a second chance, just as they all deserve compassionate, excellent patient care.

A kid broke into my house and stole my booze and video games (yeah what a dummy). I chose not to press charges. Why? He is just a dumb kid... not a career criminal and I didn't want to get him trapped in the system. That said, I did have a long conversation with he and his family. When I was growing up if a kid pulled a lame prank the immediate community handled it... now the kid gets a felony charge and ends up both in juvenile detention and kicked out of school. The kid that broke into my house... no trouble since. Had I pressed (felony) charges he would have been labeled 'bad' and it could have been terrible for his life.

Ok... I'm totally off topic... sorry. Everybody expects easy answers and black and white morality... punishing people... 3 strikes your out.... expelling people... yada yada yada. Its just not that simple.

 

[crprep23]

OP let it go, don't be the one to ruin someones entire life. I understand she is an unethical individual but don't stoop your character to that level. There might come a time in your life where you lie maybe even unintentionally, how would you feel if that lie ruined your life because someone got bored and "snitched" you out?

Did the OP lie for her?

I initially voted no, but after reading some of the other responses, I tend to agree with those saying yes. There's a reason ECs are a crucial part of the application for just about everyone. Lying should not be rewarded when there may be other viable candidates who after dedicated themselves to things outside of GPA/MCAT.

 

[WTEngel]

We are all expected to answer... absolutely yes...no question. I think this is trying to turn morality into a simple black and white compass. When in fact life... people... situations are for more complicated than that. I don't think it is that simple. Would I report a classmate that perved on a patient or spoke abusively to a patient? absolutely? Would I report some kid that cheated on his math test? or smoked a joint? or drank under age? Probably not.

Are society has become far too litigious and punitive.... it is harming our youth... harming our medical system... harming our schools... and I do not support it at all.

I have to respectfully disagree with your post, and I disagree most about it harming our medical system.

Would you believe me if I told you that 100% of medical errors that occur in the hospital setting are preventable?

I will give you an example:

A nurse is about to give a medication to a patient, and hospital policy is to have another nurse co-witness that the med order meets the "6 R's" of medication administration. Because they know each other, and they find doing this on every med administration is quite time consuming, the 2nd nurse simply co-witnesses the order.

They 1st nurse then administers the medication, and it subsequently kills the patient due to incorrect dosing. A simple error that could have been prevented by following procedure.

This kind of thing happens every day in hospitals. Employees circumvent policy because they have "done it that way for as long as they can remember." Or because following policy is too time consuming. Or sometimes, because they are bad employees, and just want to break policy.

To tie this in with the OP's original question, and also correlate it with a Just Culture theory, in 10 years if that girl goes on and makes a major medical error and kills a patient, there will likely be multiple people who will say, "You know, she was always cutting corners on the little things." or "She was always kind of sloppy." or who knows what. Major errors do not just occur out of the blue. They generally have a series of preventable actions and behaviors that lead up to the event. In a Just Culture we are bold and stand up early to prevent these tragedies.

Exposing this dishonest behavior as early as possible is the best policy, and in fact you have a duty to do so. Unfortunately, it seems like the majority of people on here have the complacent attitude of simply waiting until she does something so egregious that it does not go unnoticed, or worse yet, waiting until she harms someone, in order for it to meet their definition of what needs to be reported.

 

[latrala2300]

I graduated a few years ago and make just over $170k/year in medical sales. By all means, feel free to think you understand life better.

Really? You're throwing your salary out there as an indicator that you and your moral compass are better than us/ours? I don't know if you're telling the truth, but you sure sound like a jack@$$.

 

[WTEngel]

I am a bleeding hear liberal Christian and do not believe in all this punishment. I would far rather focus my energy on building and healing people, which is why I'm getting into medicine. AND is exactly why I will be a good doctor. My patients all deserve a second chance, just as they all deserve compassionate, excellent patient care.

A kid broke into my house and stole my booze and video games (yeah what a dummy). I chose not to press charges. Why? He is just a dumb kid... not a career criminal and I didn't want to get him trapped in the system. That said, I did have a long conversation with he and his family. When I was growing up if a kid pulled a lame prank the immediate community handled it... now the kid gets a felony charge and ends up both in juvenile detention and kicked out of school. The kid that broke into my house... no trouble since. Had I pressed (felony) charges he would have been labeled 'bad' and it could have been terrible for his life.

Ok... I'm totally off topic... sorry. Everybody expects easy answers and black and white morality... punishing people... 3 strikes your out.... expelling people... yada yada yada. Its just not that simple.

Believe it or not, I am a liberal also. I don't even mind paying higher taxes if it means someone will not go hungry, or a child can get the medicine they need. I believe in second chances too. However a second chance will never happen if people are not held accountable the first time.

Also, it is my belief that in a Just Culture, the series of behaviors that happened before that kid broke into your house would have been recognized and dealt with early. Unfortunately, there was probably a series of people who gave this kid a "second chance" and his behavior escalated. He did not go from being a good kid to breaking into your house overnight.

Pressing charges and holding him accountable might have been the wake up call he needed to stop his trend of destructive behavior.

I will also add that Just Culture is ALL about the community handling these problems before they become out of control. I think you and I are much closer to agreeing than I originally thought.

 

[music2doc]

For those of you who want to know more about this, it is called "Just Culture" and it is becoming a very big deal in healthcare. I suggest you look into it, as hospitals across the nation are beginning to institute "Just Culture" education, and taking it very seriously.

Great post and, yes, Just Culture is a huge deal in every hospital I've worked in so far. Of course, at times, I've seen it abused, but that's the nature of things. To ensure patient safety requires every member of the team be willing and able to bring up concerns about pt care/safety. Pt care must be seen as a duty by everyone involved. As a tech, if I see a doc miss something in the chart (I've seen it happen), it is my duty to stop that doc and ask if s/he realized the patient's allergy to ______. Yes, that doc might get annoyed, but who cares. Likewise, if there are repeated little problems that I see, it is my duty to bring those up to leadership in my dept.

I have to respectfully disagree with your post, and I disagree most about it harming our medical system.

Would you believe me if I told you that 100% of medical errors that occur in the hospital setting are preventable?

...

Exposing this dishonest behavior as early as possible is the best policy, and in fact you have a duty to do so. Unfortunately, it seems like the majority of people on here have the complacent attitude of simply waiting until she does something so egregious that it does not go unnoticed, or worse yet, waiting until she harms someone, in order for it to meet their definition of what needs to be reported.

Yes, most are preventable. Of course, hindsight is also 20/20.

If this person is dishonest now, she likely will be later too. Honestly, there are times it is difficult to be honest in the hospital setting no matter how honest of a person you are outside that. I would never even consider lying on something like an application, but the temptation comes up all the time in the hospital. There are probably episodes every day where I have to own up to a small mistake (or hide it by changing times in the chart or some other unethical "solution"). If someone is lying and bragging about those lies when there is basically NO pressure to lie (she could have actually done the work herself instead of simply lying about it), how can anyone expect her to be honest when there actually IS pressure to lie?

Believe it or not, I am a liberal also. I don't even mind paying higher taxes if it means someone will not go hungry, or a child can get the medicine they need. I believe in second chances too. However a second chance will never happen if people are not held accountable the first time.

Also, it is my belief that in a Just Culture, the series of behaviors that happened before that kid broke into your house would have been recognized and dealt with early. Unfortunately, there was probably a series of people who gave this kid a "second chance" and his behavior escalated. He did not go from being a good kid to breaking into your house overnight.

Pressing charges and holding him accountable might have been the wake up call he needed to stop his trend of destructive behavior.

I will also add that Just Culture is ALL about the community handling these problems before they become out of control. I think you and I are much closer to agreeing than I originally thought.

👍👍👍 I can attest to this. I used to work in case management at a youth psychiatric facility (with a very high rate of young criminals). We have judges here who absolutely LOVE to give kids <17 y/o "second chances" (i.e., deferred sentences that basically go away as long as the kid doesn't do it again for, say, 3 months). These kids then learn they can get away with ANYTHING and pretty soon we end up with a HUGE increase in Dept of Youth Corrections cases as well as an upswing in the seriousness of those cases. These youth have been known to get off scot-free for pretty ridiculous crimes and many end up as career criminals because nobody held them accountable early on. Behavioral psychologists have actually shown that it is better to punish with full force at the beginning instead of gradually increasing the severity of the punishment (which leads to habituation, decreasing the effect of the discipline).

 

[cougardiver]

Quite frankly, I am appalled that the profession I aspire to would be filled with so many people of such weak moral character. The question here is simply one of right and wrong. It is wrong to lie. While I can certainly agree with the posters who have indicated that the impact of the lie is likely minimal, the issue is not impact. The issue is integrity. Lying is unacceptable from physicians. The art of deception is all too rampant in our society.

OP, I see the issue you are facing. Clearly, she is in the wrong. Clearly, you feel intense pressure. However, as a physician, you will have the responsibility to report misdeeds and lies under the law. Certainly people should be allowed to make mistakes, but this person should not be allowed to become a doctor in this cycle. She needs to be held accountable.

As doctors, we must be willing to admit our mistakes, and improve. Blatant lying and bragging causes this action to leave the realm of a mistake to be corrected into the realm of unethical and immoral.

 

[SeminoleVesicle]

Snitches get stitches (or worse). Move on, she's not the first person to get ahead in life by lying.

 

[WTEngel]

Yes, most are preventable. Of course, hindsight is also 20/20.

I am glad someone else here has heard of it. I was always an honest person and tried to do the right thing. When we rolled out Just Culture at the flight program I work for now, it became ever so clear about how knowing that the right thing to do is, and doing it are ever so different.

I am currently chair on a hospital committee I helped create called "Mission Zero" where we are diligently working towards zero patient errors, zero preventable extended hospital stays, and zero unanticipated patient deteriorations outside of the critical care units and the ER. We are closer than ever to becoming the first hospital in the nation to accomplish this goal, and it has everything to do with employees being proud to follow procedure, and thanking their fellow employees for holding them accountable when they make an oversight.

The bottom line is humans will make mistakes. It is one of the expected behaviors in the Just Culture model. Policies, protocols, procedures, and co-workers are there to protect our patients from anticipated human errors. We console people who make errors that are not accounted for in policy and procedure. We coach people who have lapses in judgement or feel the risk of breaching policy was justified. We punish people who recklessly disregard policy, or are intentionally destructive or deceitful. The girl in the OP's scenario falls into the "punish" category.

I guess I get really wound up on threads like this because I see people being so flippant about doing such a small thing (holding someone accountable for their lie) when it is so clearly the right thing to do.

 

[WTEngel]

Snitches get stitches (or worse). Move on, she's not the first person to get ahead in life by lying.

That attitude is so far from being in line with the best traditions of medicine and healthcare. It is quite ridiculous.

I hope you or nobody in your family is ever harmed by someone who has gotten ahead in life by lying.

 

[235788]

OP i hope you get beat up if you snitch. Worry about your self.

 

[Hotshy]

The tattling gene is known to mutate spontaneously once activated.

I will second this. I know it really sucks, especially that she bragged about it. The whole tattling thing can get really out of hand though. Move on and worry about yourself, telling on her won't get you an acceptance.

 

[chiapet874]

OP i hope you get beat up if you snitch. Worry about your self.

You serious? Part of the "thin blue line" before you're even a doctor, eh?

 

[One Hip Guy]

What's worse; lying about EC's or crushing someone's chances of being a doctor?

Personally, I would think the latter by far. Would be highly self-righteous considering that everyone tells many white lies

 

[chiapet874]

Snitches get stitches (or worse). Move on, she's not the first person to get ahead in life by lying.

So under your attitude, its okay to lie to get ahead, but its not okay to snitch to get ahead.

 

[mipp0]

What's worse; lying about EC's or crushing someone's chances of being a doctor?

Personally, I would think the latter by far. Would be highly self-righteous considering that everyone tells many white lies

If those chances were built on lies and bull****, she had that crushing coming.

What's worse, cheating or ignoring and rationalizing it?

 

[dartmed]

Quite frankly, I am appalled that the profession I aspire to would be filled with so many people of such weak moral character. The question here is simply one of right and wrong. It is wrong to lie. While I can certainly agree with the posters who have indicated that the impact of the lie is likely minimal, the issue is not impact. The issue is integrity. Lying is unacceptable from physicians. The art of deception is all too rampant in our society.

OP, I see the issue you are facing. Clearly, she is in the wrong. Clearly, you feel intense pressure. However, as a physician, you will have the responsibility to report misdeeds and lies under the law. Certainly people should be allowed to make mistakes, but this person should not be allowed to become a doctor in this cycle. She needs to be held accountable.

As doctors, we must be willing to admit our mistakes, and improve. Blatant lying and bragging causes this action to leave the realm of a mistake to be corrected into the realm of unethical and immoral.

Me too. I almost fell off my chair when I read some of these comments people made. Wow. Just wow.

What's going through people thinking that it's ok to ignore someone who is lying about their qualificatons?? No part of that is ok (even if it is a tiny amount).

 

[mipp0]

You serious? Part of the "thin blue line" before you're even a doctor, eh?

Amazing isn't it? And these cowards are going to be future docs one day.

If you report cheating, it isn't SNITCHING. It's doing the right thing.

Isn't integrity one of the building blocks of medicine?

 

[SeminoleVesicle]

So under your attitude, its okay to lie to get ahead, but its not okay to snitch to get ahead.

Pretty much defensive guy. She knows the risks if she gets caught. You can't tell me you're a saint and have never lied in your life.

 

[PianoMajor]

60% of the people who participated in this poll lied on their AMCAS.

 

[SnappleApple]

Pretty much defensive guy. She knows the risks if she gets caught.

If its okay because she "knows the risks if she gets caught", isn't that a free pass for me to tell? She freely told the OP; she knew the risks of telling other people.

Basically you just want a justification to lie because you know you wouldn't be stupid enough to tell other people. The idea that "snitching" is unacceptable, but lying is alright because she knew the risks is ridiculous.

 

[SeminoleVesicle]

If its okay because she "knows the risks if she gets caught", isn't that a free pass for me to tell? She freely told the OP; she knew the risks of telling other people.

Whatever gets you to sleep at night. Everybody lies; if you really feel the need to be a defender of the "building blocks of medicine" then go ahead. It's really zero reward for you. People that snitch are people that can't be trusted and eventually get their comeuppance, whether it be this situation or another.

 

[idontcaureuknow]

I'll be blunt, my initial vote of "no" was cause when I first thought about it my mind was thinking "worry about yourself, don't give a crap about her." After thinking about it longer, turn her in. My reason is far more selfish than the morality type. She could be a colleague one day. Would I want to work with her? Heck no. Thus I'd probably report her.

 

[mipp0]

Pretty much defensive guy. She knows the risks if she gets caught. You can't tell me you're a saint and have never lied in your life.

Please change your quote to, "Please God give me the wisdom to know between right and wrong."

Your comments are laughable, as is your hypocrisy. Just read posts above...


No one is arguing that people don't lie, but do we actively? And about what? Do we all lie on our AMCAS? Certainly not, so what are you talking about?

 

[BurntFlower]

I would say let it go and focus on your own thing. That person was probably not being serious.

 

[mipp0]

I'll be blunt, my initial vote of "no" was cause when I first thought about it my mind was thinking "worry about yourself, don't give a crap about her." After thinking about it longer, turn her in. My reason is far more selfish than the morality type. She could be a colleague one day. Would I want to work with her? Heck no. Thus I'd probably report her.

Even more frightening, she could be your attending...

 

[SeminoleVesicle]

Please change your quote to, "Please God give me the wisdom to know between right and wrong."

Your comments are laughable, as is your hypocrisy. Just read posts above...

Impressive that you can learn my entire personality by my signature. This is no different than your average gunner. Your life is not directly affected whether this person gets into medical school or not. MCAT and GPA are more important anyways.