So...Would You do D.O.?

[surftheiop]

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up to 10 years of your life sacrificed

If that is actually your opinion on medical training, I suspect no amount of money should be able to "make it up"

 

[startswithb]

I consider it all the time, but i don't know if i could actually pull the trigger and apply. I'd feel like I was giving up.

That's the way I feel too. I don't think everyone understands this. It is a very personal decision based almost entirely on personality.

I was a musician for many years and my analogy is this: Was I ever happy being 2nd chair? I still played first part! No.

Not saying it's right, just my personality.

But I will absolutely take it over never becoming a physician. just not ready to swallow my pride just yet.

I actually almost envy the people who aren't bothered by it!

 

[Bacchus]

If that is actually your opinion on medical training, I suspect no amount of money should be able to "make it up"

thats funny...maybe because I spent a 10 hr marathon in the lib yesterday and will match that today.

 

[phospho]

thats funny...maybe because I spent a 10 hr marathon in the lib yesterday and will match that today.

was about to say the same thing...

 

[shiftingmirage]

Who are the *****ic snobs that voted no???

The ones that went to Ross?


Also wanted to add that I heard to apply DO you needed a LOR from a DO. Is this true for all schools? I definitely didn't have one of those.

 

[surftheiop]

thats funny...maybe because I spent a 10 hr marathon in the lib yesterday and will match that today.

what does that have to do with anything?

 

[JaggerPlate]

The ones that went to Ross?


Also wanted to add that I heard to apply DO you needed a LOR from a DO. Is this true for all schools? I definitely didn't have one of those.

It's a case by case basis, but the AOA has a DO shadowing program that's pretty user friendly and most of the DOs know you need a LOR so they are cool about it. I signed up, got instant replies, shadowed a very cool DO for a day, he wrote me a LOR, piece of cake.

Also, I'm not surprised some people said no ... they are just being honest. Do I agree with it??? Absolutely not. It's foolish, but it's how they feel. The farther I go in this game, the more I realize that medicine is filled with a lot of attitudes and egos. You'll always find the person who doesn't like DOs, you'll always find the person who wanted to go to Harvard, but didn't make it, and is irritated with the still excellent allopathic school he/she attends, you'll always find the doc all the nurses hate and talk bad about because he's a huge snob, thinks he's a god, talks down to people, ETC.It's just a reality of the beast. Also, if you simply want the MD behind your name and wouldn't be comfortable with DO for whatever reason ... then that is your decision, and you really shouldn't be labeled as ignorant or anything else for it (as long as you don't bash others who don't feel the same way in the mean time). Again, do I agree with it ??? Well, no. I'd (obviously) much rather go to a DO school than reapply or go over seas or something, but again, personal choice.

I'm actually very impressed with many of the responses, and hope this remains civil. I'm attending a DO school next year, and I've always thought it was an excellent option.

 

[Bacchus]

that you do sacrifice...I was invited to dinner by my best friends from undergrad...had to say no. To say we dont sacrifice or shouldnt be compensated appropriately is redic.

 

[morning]

thats funny...maybe because I spent a 10 hr marathon in the lib yesterday and will match that today.

If you were a physician right now you'd probably be spending 10-12 hour days working too. And not all of it would be enjoyable.

Lol if physicians made only high 5 fig's, i'd go get a PhD. There's no way to rationalize 50+ hours a week and get paid only around 90k. Hell I myself have trouble rationalizing why someone would go into medicine and make below 200k and deal with all that debt and all the years sacrificed.

Tell me I'm going into medicine for all the wrong reasons, but you know its true. 300k+ debt , up to 10 years of your life sacrificed and working 60 hours a week is masochistic.

For me where I get into med school will probably inform what I go into. I am interested in Peds but I probably wouldn't choose Peds if I only get into a private school or an OOS that won't allow me to become a resident after the first year. If I graduate with under 150k debt I would be happier making 100k than if I graduate with 300k debt. I think a lot of people would agree there. I don't think it's fair to expect anyone to go into a low-paying specialty saddled with executive-level debt.

 

[surftheiop]

that you do sacrifice...I was invited to dinner by my best friends from undergrad...had to say no. To say we dont sacrifice or shouldnt be compensated appropriately is redic.

There is a big difference between passing up social opportunities now and then and "sacrificing 10 years of your life"

 

[Hoody]

I will never understand the pre-med obsession with this topic.

they have to make up for the fact that its never going to be addressed beyond sdn.

And while I try not to judge, I certainly wouldn't choose one of those people as my PCP.

you'll think otherwise when your working side by side with a great DO, or your boss is a DO, or a DO saves the life of someone very close to you

Who are the *****ic snobs that voted no???

see above.

 

[Geekchick921]

they have to make up for the fact that its never going to be addressed beyond sdn.

you'll think otherwise when your working side by side with a great DO, or your boss is a DO, or a DO saves the life of someone very close to you

👍

 

[thesauce]

I know I live in a very DO-friendly area, but I don't even see what there is to be "okay with"

You're being too nit-picky. Besides, the fact that you challenged the benign wording at all suggests you're aware of the stigma and do see what there is to be "okay with."

I like morning's suggestion, though I suggest they make it MDO and MDA, so that way the MD's can't whine that DOs have three letters. 😛

I thought the letters behind the name didn't matter?

 

[Hoody]

For me where I get into med school will probably inform what I go into.

I'm guessing your board scores, grades and LORs will inform what you get into.

and just FYI, there are DOs who teach at allopathic schools. There are also DOs that lead allopathic residencies. hopefully, because of your disdain for 'those people," you dont end up at one of these places.

 

[morning]

you'll think otherwise when your working side by side with a great DO, or your boss is a DO, or a DO saves the life of someone very close to you

Oh, my goodness. Hoody, I really don't want to ruin what WAS a civil discussion, but you seriously need to read a little better.

"Prestige is a huge motivator for some people. I hate to say it but it's true. Give every pre-med a lie detector test and see what they say about why they're considering med school. I'm not saying it's the ONLY motivator, but for quite a few folks...it's a biggie. DO just doesn't carry the same Respectability Quotient as MD.

And while I try not to judge, I certainly wouldn't choose one of those people as my PCP."

Hmmm, who could I possibly be talking about here? DOs or...the MDs who care only about prestige? Why would I be "judging" DOs, especially when I said earlier in the thread that I was going to apply DO as well?

You seem to just want to jump on people without actually reading what they are saying.

 

[Geekchick921]

You're being too nit-picky. Besides, the fact that you challenged the benign wording at all suggests you're aware of the stigma and do see what there is to be "okay with."

Yes, I'm aware of the stigma, but it is a ridiculous thing to concern yourself with if you need medical attention. Why is does it even register on someone's radar?

I thought the letters behind the name didn't matter?

I don't care. Other people clearly do.

 

[Hoody]

I suggest they make it MDO and MDA, so that way the MD's can't whine that DOs have three letters. 😛

Its SDN that whines....no one in the real world cares. And being that its SDN, they'll always find something to whine about.

There's no way to rationalize 50+ hours a week and get paid only around 90k.

sadly, this is a reality for many Americans....that is, working 50hrs a week for well, well under 90k.

...i know, i know. they didn't take o. chem and they didn't spend 10 years in school, blah, blah, blah.

 

[Hoody]

Oh, my goodness. Hoody, I really don't want to ruin what WAS a civil discussion, but you seriously need to read a little better.

Perhaps you need to articulate your thoughts better?

I'll compromise and meet you halfway.....how's that for civil? 😛

 

[298609]

why are some so quick to judge the choices others make for themselves...and express in an anonymous poll?

 

[phospho]

Its SDN that whines....no one in the real world cares. And being that its SDN, they'll always find something to whine about.

sadly, this is a reality for many Americans....that is, working 50hrs a week for well, well under 90k.

...i know, i know. they didn't take o. chem and they didn't spend 10 years in school, blah, blah, blah.

No one cares about the 50 hrs/week. Most of us type A's in medical school thrive on that stuff. We wouldn't do less hours even if they paid us to take time off.

I'm talking about not getting a real job till 11-12 years after you finish high school. I'm talking about putting your life on hold (at least for the average medical students). I'm talking about having to go into so much debt that it scares the living crap out of you if you fail just one test because you think they might kick you out and you would be stuck with the loans. I'm talking about watching a third year realize he is screwed FOR LIFE because he decided that medicine wasn't right for him so he decided to drop out, even with all the money he owes, and now he wishes he could go back in time because he doesn't know what to do.

I'm just a first year here. I had some money owed from undergrad, and my loans were just processed for the second term of medical school. Do you know what it feels like to open your direct loans statement and see 6 figures? (they're actually 8 numbers, because of the cents)

And I'm not even in payment yet.

 

[Mackey]

I voted "no" as it apparently infuriates some of you.

 

[roseglass6370]

And while I try not to judge, I certainly wouldn't choose one of those people as my PCP.

Morning was referring to 'those people' who only care about prestige. Not DOs. I agree, people need to read more carefully before jumping down other people's throats.

Just sayin'....

 

[morning]

Perhaps you need to articulate your thoughts better?

I'll compromise and meet you halfway.....how's that for civil? 😛

I'd rather you stop and think about what you're reading before you shoot off an incredibly negative, condescending reply. That's a good enough "compromise" for me. Keeps most forums and online discussions running at an even keel, I've found.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I voted "no" as it apparently infuriates some of you.

You're like one step above James Dean brah.

 

[J1515]

Why hasn't bannie weighed in on this issue yet?

 

[Hoody]

Morning was referring to 'those people' who only care about prestige. Not DOs. I agree, people need to read more carefully before jumping down other people's throats.

Just sayin'....

The post could actually be taken either way....and its an internet forum. People come here to discuss and debate things. Posts are bound to get misinterpreted. it doesn't appear as if i am the only one who misunderstood the post as another agreed with my response. furthermore, i don't think anyone jumped down anyone's throat...

I'd rather you stop and think about what you're reading before you shoot off an incredibly negative, condescending reply.

what exactly in my response do you find "incredibly negative" and "condescending"?

you'll think otherwise when your working side by side with a great DO, or your boss is a DO, or a DO saves the life of someone very close to you

😕


I'll point out that you insulted my reading comprehension skills before i ever personally insulted anything about you. so perhaps you should ask yourself who is being civil and who is being negative and disrespectful. or even hypocritical. if you want respect, give it. otherwise be prepared to take what you dish.

 

[orthomyxo]

The ones that went to Ross?


Also wanted to add that I heard to apply DO you needed a LOR from a DO. Is this true for all schools? I definitely didn't have one of those.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Probably the same ones that wouldn't become physicians if they only made a high 5 figure salary *gasp*.

I voted yes. And there is NO way in hell i would go into medicine if I was looking at a career making in the high 5 figures. It's simply not worth the effort and stress, not even close.

 

[OptimusMedicus]

No one cares about the 50 hrs/week. Most of us type A's in medical school thrive on that stuff. We wouldn't do less hours even if they paid us to take time off.

I'm talking about not getting a real job till 11-12 years after you finish high school. I'm talking about putting your life on hold (at least for the average medical students). I'm talking about having to go into so much debt that it scares the living crap out of you if you fail just one test because you think they might kick you out and you would be stuck with the loans. I'm talking about watching a third year realize he is screwed FOR LIFE because he decided that medicine wasn't right for him so he decided to drop out, even with all the money he owes, and now he wishes he could go back in time because he doesn't know what to do.

I'm just a first year here. I had some money owed from undergrad, and my loans were just processed for the second term of medical school. Do you know what it feels like to open your direct loans statement and see 6 figures? (they're actually 8 numbers, because of the cents)

And I'm not even in payment yet.

I think you will do really well in the long run. 👍

 

[siliso]

Is no one bothered by the woo? That's the only thing that would make me think twice.

 

[Hoody]

Do you know what it feels like to open your direct loans statement and see 6 figures? (they're actually 8 numbers, because of the cents)

No, I don't. But I do date an attending who is ~150k deep so I can understand where you are coming from.

Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about debt...I was just saying that there are people who work 50hrs+ and make < 90k. I image for people who make a lot less than that, a much smaller amount of debt can be proportional to someone who has 6 figure debt but brings in a 6 figure salary. But I definitely dont want to get into that discussion cause we've all been there and done that...and Im not one of those people who think physicians should make less than 6 figures. no, no. bad, bad juju.

I agree with whomever said you'll do well in the long run. post to post, you seem to be a level headed, intelligent person. 👍

 

[thesauce]

Yes, I'm aware of the stigma, but it is a ridiculous thing to concern yourself with if you need medical attention. Why is does it even register on someone's radar?


I don't care. Other people clearly do.

How many different ways are you going to slice this? It must have registered on your radar for you to be aware of the stigma. Clearly someone isn't concerning themselves with it if they're "okay with" it.

If you don't care about the initials, then why did you suggest the change? ( I like morning's suggestion, though I suggest they make it MDO and MDA, so that way the MD's can't whine that DOs have three letters. 😛)

 

[Mackey]

I voted yes. And there is NO way in hell i would go into medicine if I was looking at a career making in the high 5 figures. It's simply not worth the effort and stress, not even close.

So nurses and paramedics are more dedicated to the field of medicine than some future doctors.

I guess the top of the ivory tower doesn't have to care as much as the people who hold it up.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

So nurses and paramedics are more dedicated to the field of medicine than some future doctors.

I guess the top of the ivory tower doesn't have to care as much as the people who hold it up.

Negative, nurses and paramedics don't suffer through 1/1000th of the struggles medical students do. They don't need to stay focused and dedicated all through undergrad in order to maintain a VERY high GPA, score a very high MCAT score, volunteer endlessly, conduct research, kiss teachers ***es to get LOR's. Then after all that, they don't have to suffer through 4 years of the toughest schooling available and then 3-7 years of working absolutely terrible hours.

I know a paramedic, and i know several nurses, they have it MUCH easier. I would more than likely choose to be something like a nurse anesthetist, or even a paramedic, if doctors only made in the high 5 figures. I'd make just as much money, still get to work in medicine, and not have to go through all of the suffering necessary to be a doctor.

 

[morning]

How many different ways are you going to slice this? It must have registered on your radar for you to be aware of the stigma. Clearly someone isn't concerning themselves with it if they're "okay with" it.

If you don't care about the initials, then why did you suggest the change? ( I like morning's suggestion, though I suggest they make it MDO and MDA, so that way the MD's can't whine that DOs have three letters. 😛)

Since this is actually something I said, I'll bite...I don't think DO vs. MD really matters to anyone in the know, but it would simply be easier to educate those who don't really know what a DO is/does if they were called MDOs or something of the sort. People see the MD and it means something to them. A lot of folks wouldn't see "DO" and automatically realize the person is a doctor.

I think this becomes more relevant as other health professions start encroaching into doctor territory...physicians who went through a minimum of 11 years of education need to stick together, and it's easier to do that in the eyes of the public if their nearly identical professions have nearly identical names.

Of course, maybe this is completely meaningless to actual DOs. I don't want to speak for anyone.

So nurses and paramedics are more dedicated to the field of medicine than some future doctors.

You're kidding yourself if you think money isn't a draw into nursing. Why do you think nursing salaries have risen so much? To recruit more RNs.

 

[Mackey]

Negative, nurses and paramedics don't suffer through 1/1000th of the struggles medical students do. They don't need to stay focused and dedicated all through undergrad in order to maintain a VERY high GPA, score a very high MCAT score, volunteer endlessly, conduct research, kiss teachers ***es to get LOR's. Then after all that, they don't have to suffer through 4 years of the toughest schooling available and then 3-7 years of working absolutely terrible hours.

I know a paramedic, and i know several nurses, they have it MUCH easier. I would more than likely choose to be something like a nurse anesthetist, or even a paramedic, if doctors only made in the high 5 figures. I'd make just as much money, still get to work in medicine, and not have to go through all of the suffering necessary to be a doctor.

Oh, sorry, I didn't know you knew a paramedic. My fault.

and then 3-7 years of working absolutely terrible hours

No, just a lifetime.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Oh, sorry, I didn't know you knew a paramedic. My fault.


No, just a lifetime.

What? You don't have to know one to know that it's very easy to become one. You'd have to be absolutely crazy to think that Paramedics and Nurses have to go through just as much to work in their fields.

If you would be a doctor for high 5 figures, you're a chump. Simple as that. You sacrifice far too much of your freedom and time with your loved ones to not be very well compensated afterwards.

Oh, and all doctors don't work terrible hours forever. I have no intention of working insane hours for the rest of my life.

 

[ronaldo23]

Negative, nurses and paramedics don't suffer through 1/1000th of the struggles medical students do. They don't need to stay focused and dedicated all through undergrad in order to maintain a VERY high GPA, score a very high MCAT score, volunteer endlessly, conduct research, kiss teachers ***es to get LOR's. Then after all that, they don't have to suffer through 4 years of the toughest schooling available and then 3-7 years of working absolutely terrible hours.

I know a paramedic, and i know several nurses, they have it MUCH easier. I would more than likely choose to be something like a nurse anesthetist, or even a paramedic, if doctors only made in the high 5 figures. I'd make just as much money, still get to work in medicine, and not have to go through all of the suffering necessary to be a doctor.

I agree. Especially since nurse anesthetists make more than primary care physicians now, if doctors salaries dropped to below 100K, there is no way in hell I'd do medicine and would instead go for that.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

I agree. Especially since nurse anesthetists make more than primary care physicians now, if doctors salaries dropped to below 100K, there is no way in hell I'd do medicine and would instead go for that.

Exactly. And while it is competitive, it's nothing compared to the competition (and work required) for medical school and residency. I'm sure i'd feel a great sense of relief if I changed my career choice to something like that. It's just so much easier.

 

[Hoody]

Negative, nurses and paramedics don't suffer through 1/1000th of the struggles medical students do.

Subjective and varies person to person. I know of people who struggled in nursing school and I know people who breezed through. Same can be said of pre meds....i know some who most definitely struggled, and others who really enjoyed their time and breezed through.

I myself was wait listed for a year with little over a 3.3 in pre req courses. I ended up retaking 5 classes that I previously got Bs in to get As. That took some perseverance. It took me 5 years to grad, including summer school sessions.

Then after all that, they don't have to suffer through 4 years of the toughest schooling available and then 3-7 years of working absolutely terrible hours.

As a student nurse, I worked the night shift at a hospital that was in another town ~45 miles away from the school I attended. Winters were bad (two of my instructors were killed making the commute my senior year). Also, as a resident, you get paid. We had to pay to play while training.

In the end, nurses do a lot of physical work. Doctors do a lot of mental work. Both can be very exhausting.

You're kidding yourself if you think money isn't a draw into nursing. Why do you think nursing salaries have risen so much? To recruit more RNs.

It seems to be working.....to an extent. We have drawn quite a bit more interest, but people who do it for the money usually make pretty bad nurses and burn out quickly. We have a high turnover rate (16 nurses in the last 18 months for example). And it sucks terribly working with someone who really doesn't care about the patient. 🙁

just a little food for thought, since we are talking about salaries and stuff, I worked 108 hours (28hrs OT) in the last two weeks (we are paid bi-weekly through the fed govt). My paycheck was $3045.76 after taxes. Good, but not outrageous. I most definitely feel like i earned every single penny of that check....I need a massage, my back is killin me!

 

[Mackey]

What? You don't have to know one to know that it's very easy to become one. You'd have to be absolutely crazy to think that Paramedics and Nurses have to go through just as much to work in their fields.

If you would be a doctor for high 5 figures, you're a chump. Simple as that. You sacrifice far too much of your freedom and time with your loved ones to not be very well compensated afterwards.

Oh, and all doctors don't work terrible hours forever. I have no intention of working insane hours for the rest of my life.

As a paramedic for several years before coming to medical school, as well as living with my girlfriend who is out at work right now, as a paramedic, going for her nursing degree, I think I have some insight into how it works, Sparky. A bit more than a premed.

Heres the raw deal: There are a ton of healthcare workers out there who work longer, harder hours doing far less glamorous work than the physicians. Doctors do not keep the hospital standing from day to day. Wait till you're a resident on the wards and get into an argument with the nursing staff. See who's side your attending takes. Though, you might not see much as you're getting thrown right underneath the bus.

Don't think for a moment that you have it that much tougher than the rest of the medical community. You're going to offend a lot of people if you keep spouting off about how you are the only one making sacrifices.

If you continue to do so, however, try not to claim "kissing professor's @sses" as a valid argument as towards why you have it harder.

 

[Old Grunt]

There's a reason only 20% of DO's use OMM. It's probably because 80% of DO's just wanted to become doctors and ended up in DO school rather than MD school.

I think the percentage is a lot lower than that and it's for reasons that probably aren't as diabolical as you claim.

There isn't really any good peer-reviewed evidence for OMM as a treatment modality. In fact, there is not a lot of literature on OMM period. The one I can think of is:

.Andersson, Gunnar B.J., et al. A Comparison of Osteopathic Spinal Manipulation with Standard Care for Patients with Low Back Pain. N Engl J. Med. 1999; 341:1426-1431..

The findings were modest, at best, and the study had a lot of bias in it (so much so, that many D.O.'s blasted the study).

I am in a very D.O. favorable area, so much so that one of the hospitals we do a rotation at has both MD and DO residency slots and an OMM clinic. I applied to DO programs and wouldn't have had a problem going to one (in-state tuition won out in the end).

 

[JaggerPlate]

I think the percentage is a lot lower than that and it's for reasons that probably aren't as diabolical as you claim.

There isn't really any good peer-reviewed evidence for OMM as a treatment modality. In fact, there is not a lot of literature on OMM period. The one I can think of is:

.Andersson, Gunnar B.J., et al. A Comparison of Osteopathic Spinal Manipulation with Standard Care for Patients with Low Back Pain. N Engl J. Med. 1999; 341:1426-1431..

The findings were modest, at best, and the study had a lot of bias in it (so much so, that many D.O.'s blasted the study).

I am in a very D.O. favorable area, so much so that one of the hospitals we do a rotation at has both MD and DO residency slots and an OMM clinic. I applied to DO programs and wouldn't have had a problem going to one (in-state tuition won out in the end).

Did you miss the OMM Journal Club in the Osteo forum??? There is evidence out there for lots of the more mainstream OMM procedures, and even stuff trying to research some of the more student rejected stuff. Most of it isn't in journal like NEJM, but it's still researched and published ... people just usually assume it isn't there (it's one of those SDN mantras). Most people don't use OMM because it's hard to get really good at it, they want to study other things in school, they don't have the time/care to keep up with it on rotations/residency (or the resources), and when time is limited during office visits, there isn't enough time to do it properly OR they don't want to hassle PPO reimbursement issues (some PPO companies fight it if you aren't a NMM/OMM fellowship or residency trained DO).

 

[JaggerPlate]

As a paramedic for several years before coming to medical school, as well as living with my girlfriend who is out at work right now, as a paramedic, going for her nursing degree, I think I have some insight into how it works, Sparky. A bit more than a premed.

Heres the raw deal: There are a ton of healthcare workers out there who work longer, harder hours doing far less glamorous work than the physicians. Doctors do not keep the hospital standing from day to day. Wait till you're a resident on the wards and get into an argument with the nursing staff. See who's side your attending takes. Though, you might not see much as you're getting thrown right underneath the bus.

Don't think for a moment that you have it that much tougher than the rest of the medical community. You're going to offend a lot of people if you keep spouting off about how you are the only one making sacrifices.

If you continue to do so, however, try not to claim "kissing professor's @sses" as a valid argument as towards why you have it harder.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a paramedic or nurse 200k in student loan debt.

 

[TGibson81]

I am still deciding- I go back and forth, but I thinks its because i dont know enough about both.

I choose DO's as my PCP when given the opportunity, I have found them to be better Physicians for me personally. But I have to be honest and say I would be concerned about graduating with a DO because in the south, we dont have as many practicing DOs as the midwest. id be afraid people wouldnt want to come to me because they wouldnt know what it meant or i would constantly heave to defend myself against those who call it "the back-up" or second rate option.
I know that sounds silly, but I guess i would like to attend DO school, learn what they teach, but get an MD after my name.

 

[Mackey]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a paramedic or nurse 200k in student loan debt.

An out-of-state BSN can come close to it, and I wouldn't be hard pressed to find one of those.

Being fiscally responsible and paying off student debt is not a sacrifice. It is being an adult.

 

[Hoody]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a paramedic or nurse 200k in student loan debt.

...we weren't really talking about debt, but, I know plenty of nurses who are 30K+ in debt or more. In fact I know one girl who is about 33k in debt for an associates degree(!!!). Now I could be wrong here, but if you make ~60k a year (decent salary for staff nurse), paying off 30K+ debt could be pretty gnarly. Its all poportional (at least in my world )

also, I think I read on that SDN article that 25% of med students have 200K debt or more (might want to check and see if I got those stats right).

Just a quick disclaimer, I don't think anyone should have to have 200K debt, not even if you come out making 800K a year. America's education system is much like the health care system - in need of repair!

 

[Melicopter]

That is fair I guess. I just truly enjoy the ideal of a patient having the opportunity to be able to choose and decipher between physicians who are using a traditional approach and an alternative approach. I wish alternative and holistic medicine would be integrated more into patient treatments. For instance, acupuncture has been scientifically proven to have certain healing effects (i.e. breaking up the tissue clumps at the certain acupuncture points), yet it is not billable in the state I live in.

I think it's unfortunate that for many people DO becomes a backup plan or an opportunity to become a doctor with lower statistics. I feel bad for the 20% of DO students who want to use OMM and have to sit through classes with people who are ignorant to the nature of a DO and who just went to DO school because they could not get into MD school

I also think it is unfortunate that DO is a backup plan for people, but I'm going to have to be a stickler on one point: osteopathic medicine is not alternative medicine. There are some people who specialize in manipulative medicine, and only do that all day. Perhaps you could call that "alternative." Osteopathic and allopathic doctors are the only licensed physicians. As such, they are the mainstream, and the others are alternative. That's how I see it anyway.

In addition, the MD I shadowed educated patients on acupuncture and its demonstrated success for some people. Until shadowing both MD and DO physicians I also believed that the DO approach was more holistic. I did not find that playing out in practice, however. Maybe it's due to the region I live in, or it's doctor-specific but the MD was just as holistic as the DOs. I think it is probably a person-specific difference which may correlate with initials to some extent if osteopathic medicine attracts more people who lean toward alternative treatment. Other than that, it's the same training with some additional courses in manipulation.

 

[Geekchick921]

How many different ways are you going to slice this? It must have registered on your radar for you to be aware of the stigma. Clearly someone isn't concerning themselves with it if they're "okay with" it.

Quite frankly, I have no idea what you're even trying to call me out on.

Are you talking about it registering on my radar as the doctors that cared for me/I've worked with are concerned? I, have, amazingly, read the sign on my doctors' office door and seen the letters that follow their names. I also work in a hospital and have to take notice of what name and abbreviation I'm writing on a file or entering into the database I have access to. I had no idea there was a stigma towards DO til I came to SDN, (and how could I not be aware of it at this point, considering all the asinine e-fights it incites?). and I still would not care which type of physician was caring for me or my family if we needed medical attention. If I was choosing a new care provider, whether or not they're an MD or DO would fall right under "Who did they vote for as their senior class president?" on the list of things I'd care about.

As far as my own schooling is concerned, I am applying to both MD and DO schools. My first choice school is an allopathic, but I'd have no problems attending the DO school(s) I'm applying to.

If you don't care about the initials, then why did you suggest the change? (I like morning's suggestion, though I suggest they make it MDO and MDA, so that way the MD's can't whine that DOs have three letters. 😛)

Okay. Clearly, the 😛 wasn't enough to indicate I was not being serious. Unclench.

 

[Hoody]

An out-of-state BSN can come close to it, and I wouldn't be hard pressed to find one of those.

Nursing schools also have some of those back door, Caribbean type schools. Think like Phoenix University. They charge like 33K+ a year. And these grads aren't even recognized in all the states. A non trad gal I know in her early 30s just finished at a school like this. So shes like 70K in debt and her license is restricted to Colorado.


Nurses may be in demand, but the gap is narrowing. My neighbor (just moved in from Colorado) said that she applied to 43 jobs and was offered two (!)...one at a nursing home back in CO and one here at a larger hospital. She might have some flaws I dont know about, but she seems pretty darn normal


Point is that each profession has challenges...the difficulty level or whatever you want to call it is too subjective to make a definitive assumption on how much people struggle in that profession to get where they are at.