Software Engineer to Dentist

[softwaredentist]

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Unfortunately, the total cost of attendance is over $500k for most dental schools.....unless you're a Texas resident and attend a dental school in Texas. It'll be a lot more than $5000/month for $600k debt. My wife and I owed $450k and our monthly repayment amount was around $5500. This wasn't an issue for us because we had 2 doctor's incomes in our household.

You're right, with an associate income of $120k/yr (and if you plan to work this way for the rest of your life....no job change, no practice ownership), it will not be enough. I think you know the answer to your own question. There's no point of wasting your time and money on taking prerequisite classes now if you think dentistry is too expensive for you. If you plan to get married and have kids, having a single income in a household will not be enough. Kids are expensive. Financial stress is one of the leading causes of divorce.

Yeah, it's a very difficult decision but outside of healthcare I really don't have any other opportunities to make a stable high income. I've tried finding a job for the past year and a half, and I am unemployed now. I've looked at so many different options and applied for so many different things.

I would rather be stressed making $300K and survive than be on the verge of homelessness. And as for kids, women won't even consider you if you have no financial future. I just don't see any other way forward than to pursue healthcare.

I will try saving up as much money as possible by trying to make another business, sales and whatnot, and eat beans and ramen to survive. I'll attend whichever is the cheapest dental school in the country.

I do project that due to govt capping healthcare loans at $50K, the rest being private, and 50% of future dental workforce being female (according to the ADA) there will grow a severe shortage of skilled specialists in all healthcare because pursuing it won't be worth it anymore financially, so demand will remain high. But new grads would be graduating with $700K-1M in debt while making $100-200K if they do not specialize. So generally dentistry will implode, and again earnings will increase.

 

[charlestweed]

There’s a distinction between being pressured to produce/perform complex procedures and the eagerness to learn new skill. The doctors who are in the former group will always feel miserable at their job because they just want to do the easy low stress work, get paid, and go home early. The doctors, who are eager to learn new skills and want to become better more efficient clinicians, tend to be happier with their job because with good clinical skill, the procedures they performs don’t appear to be complex to them and they don’t have problem finding good paying jobs.

 

[New_Vegas]

That is all of healthcare now. Healthcare has become a joke because of debt and greed, you walk into any doctor's office and they want to get you on a procedure or recurring plan as soon as you walk in. God bless the honest doctors who don't go surgery happy on patients just to charge or meet quotas.

You know what doctors don't do unnecessary work? The ones who are busy enough, and financial secure enough. You know who isn't busy enough or financial secure? Most dentists, due to the obscene amounts of new graduates and excessively high tuitions the schools charge. The schools and their greed are the biggest problem.

 

[JacquesVallee]

You know what doctors don't do unnecessary work? The ones who are busy enough, and financial secure enough. You know who isn't busy enough or financial secure? Most dentists, due to the obscene amounts of new graduates and excessively high tuitions the schools charge. The schools and their greed are the biggest problem.

But what if dentistry is a pre-dent's passion!?

 

[charlestweed]

Yeah, it's a very difficult decision but outside of healthcare I really don't have any other opportunities to make a stable high income. I've tried finding a job for the past year and a half, and I am unemployed now. I've looked at so many different options and applied for so many different things.

You are not alone. I know plenty of college graduates who can’t find jobs and are living with their parents. And the ones, who have jobs, are doing things that are completely unrelated to what they studied in college….and the pays are bad too. A lot of people on this forum keep saying there are plenty of good paying jobs out there that pay well and don’t require any college degree or any skill. They don’t know what they are talking about. If it’s so easy, then why only 18% of the individuals in this country make over $100k?

My wife and I are currently helping 3 kids to get into dental schools. One of them also majors in Computer Science but he switched to dentistry in his 2nd year so he doesn’t have to take any gap year.

I would rather be stressed making $300K and survive than be on the verge of homelessness.

So you’re OK with working 6-7 days/wk after graduation? Then, I think you will be fine. I think it’s possible to make $300k/yr (or more) as a recent grad dentist. As a brand new grad with zero experience, you make around $150k/yr….and then $200k/yr in the 2nd year….and then with experience and speed, $300k/yr in year 3. For us older dentists, we didn’t need to work 6 days/wk because our student loans weren’t as high and the competition wasn’t as bad as they are today. And yet, many of us chose to work 6 days because we wanted to get rich quick. Who doesn’t? But for you guys, young dentists, working 6 days/wk is a must, especially with $5-600k debt. Like I said before, huge debt motivates you to work hard (and hard work often leads to success) because you don’t have any other choice…. student loan debt can’t be discharged. You’re right….being under stress working 6 days/wk is better than being unemployed.

My nephew graduated last year and he is making $800/day or around $200k+/year for a big corp office. They also offer him health benefit and 401k. He’s just an average dentist. He doesn’t do endo and the corp office is ok with this because it’s not easy to find a FT associate dentist, who's willing to work in this area (it’s in a rural part of Southern California).

And as for kids, women won't even consider you if you have no financial future. I just don't see any other way forward than to pursue healthcare.

You’re right. No one would want to marry a broke person with no future career plan. It’s completely understandable. Financially secured = a happy and stable marriage = happy children.

I will try saving up as much money as possible by trying to make another business, sales and whatnot, and eat beans and ramen to survive. I'll attend whichever is the cheapest dental school in the country.

I do project that due to govt capping healthcare loans at $50K, the rest being private, and 50% of future dental workforce being female (according to the ADA) there will grow a severe shortage of skilled specialists in all healthcare because pursuing it won't be worth it anymore financially, so demand will remain high. But new grads would be graduating with $700K-1M in debt while making $100-200K if they do not specialize. So generally dentistry will implode, and again earnings will increase.

It’s not easy (with the current jobs that you have) and will take forever to save $300-400k for dental school. Since you’re already in your late 20s, I don’t think you have a lot of time to work to save money. Either take the financial risk of borrowing $5-600k for dental school now and be prepared to work 6 days or pursue another profession. Good luck with your decision.

 

[JacquesVallee]

So you’re OK with working 6-7 days/wk after graduation?

Impossible to say you could work 7 (omg I cannot fathom this) days a week as a pre-dent when you know nothing. When push comes to shove, nobody will. In fact, I don't know a single dentist who has ever worked 7 days a week.

 

[charlestweed]

Impossible to say you could work 7 (omg I cannot fathom this) days a week as a pre-dent when you know nothing. When push comes to shove, nobody will. In fact, I don't know a single dentist who has ever worked 7 days a week.

There are plenty of them, especially the Asian dentists, in So Cal who are doing this because of the oversaturated market. They do not only work 6 days they also do their own cleaning....no hygienist. Many of them work at the same corp with me...they work P/T for corp and work P/T at their own offices on Saturdays and Sundays. Many of them are my referring dentists.

 

[charlestweed]

There is a real need in dentistry for setting up and maintaining computers. Is that a business you could do with your existing knowledge? I recently had a new server put in and don't understand a single thing of how it was done and how we moved off the new server. All I know is I paid for it. Whenever my staff have questions about why their printer or computer is acting this way or that, I have the office manager contact the local-ish IT firm that handle these things for me. I have no interest in learning about computers but I cannot function without the several that I own either. I'm not even into 3D printing yet because I can't manage yet another IT component to this business. Gone are the days when offices operated like how charlestweed still operates - a little bit of digital and a lot more paper and plaster. Almost every dental office needs an IT department to manage their existing and future hardware and keep up with software changes etc. AI can't do that.

I have no interest in learning about the computer either. I've run the my office the same way as I when I first started it 25 years ago.... paper charts, film xrays, alginate and stone models. I still use the same windows XP computer for printing patients' photos because it's still working great. I don't have to worry about virus and security threat because my office doesn't even have internet.

The patients don't care what I use. As long as I can make their teeth straight, they're happy and their referring GPs are happy. Every time I take a pano film on the patients and they see that Xay cone head thing spinning around their head, they think I use high tech equipment. But they don't know that it's the same 25 yo film x ray unit that I purchased used (refurbished) for only $11k.

There's no reason for me waste money and time (to learn the new computer system) when the existing system has been proven to work fine for 25 years. It's just as efficient (if not more since I don't have to spend extra time to deal with the repair tech) as the high tech offices. I can still treat 60-80 patients per day with the current paper chart system. I just throw all the neccessary documents (heath hx, inform consents, x rays, photos, tx notes) inside the chart and I am done. No need to waste additional time to scan these documents and upload them to the cloud after the office hours. The entire 2 yr tx notes can be viewed/condensed in a single piece of paper.

You're right. I don't think the young grads will be able to work in my office. That's why I don't want my kid to follow my footsteps and take over my practice. By the time I am ready to retire, I will just walk away because it will be worth nothing. My office doesn't even have an alarm system because there's nothing valuable inside for the thief to steal.

 

[schmoob]

I would rather be stressed making $300K and survive than be on the verge of homelessness

That’s quite the number. What makes you so sure you’ll make that much? And how many years from now do you think you’ll get there?

 

[TanMan]

I graduated last year from computer science in university and came into one of the worst possible job markets of all time. I worked as a barista, in retail, as a busboy, reseller, and a tutor. All working inconsistent hours and minimum wage. At one point I had 3 part time jobs. I applied to 500 jobs, and while I got some interviews couldn’t land a single one (and I was also open to relocating). I also tried starting up 3 separate businesses on the side and they all failed due to various reasons. I finally got a full time job in IT because my friend was able to influence his company to hire me, and I was severely underpaid and then got laid off after several months due to company restructuring. I’ve been unemployed now for several months as I am unable to relocate to a high cost of living city where most jobs are and trying to plan out my next steps.

This past year changed what I want. I went into tech when there was no LLMs producing code and a job market that was less saturated, but the landscape shifted right as I was finishing school. I don't want to spend 40 years staring at a screen, moving cities for employers, and competing with offshoring and AI tooling. My eyes already hurt. I want a stable, high income job I can work well into my 50s, enough to support a large family, without constantly having to move my family around.

I’ve landed upon the following paths from my research:
1. Certified Anesthesiologist Assistant (fast schooling, have most pre-reqs done, not too much debt burden, high income, but low ownership potential since I’d work in hospitals, and I would probably have to travel a lot)
2. Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist (same as CAA - fast schooling, most pre-reqs done, not too much debt, high income, autonomy and flexible contracting).
3. Med school + specialty (anesthesiologist) - massive amount of study and sacrifice. The thought of med school actually terrifies me because it’s another 13-15 years of lost income and massive sacrifice until attending but once you finish you are practically irreplaceable in your job and guaranteed job security for life.
4. GP Dentist with possibility to specialize (minimum $500K of debt + 4 - 8 year timeline depending on whether I specialize) - offers ownership potential and high income, autonomy, but physically taxing.

I think software knowledge is valuable, but the skill on it’s own is useless without a service or business to actually apply this knowledge to so I’ve been trying to determine what else I can study to complement my skill set.

I thought dentistry could be a good career for me because it’s entrepreneurial, a solid recurring service that is in high demand for health reasons, the path is not as long as medicine, and I can open up my own practice. My software and sales skills complement the skill of a dentist because it’s more like operating a business that offers a recurring physical service. However, I’ve talked to some dentists in my area who I know and they told me to be very careful about the tuition since dental school is very expensive now and dental salaries are decreasing due to insurance reimbursement.

I calculated the cost of attending the cheapest in state school (assuming I can get admitted) and I would graduate with roughly $350K-$450K of debt, and upon further specializing it would be closer to $600K-$700K, on top of the lost income, which makes pursuing dentistry an unwise financial investment. My idea was to continue trying to build some businesses to pay it off since I still need 1-2 years to finish the pre-requisites and if I can save up a cash pile of $100K - $200K it wouldn’t be as bad, especially if I invest some of the money so I can earn interest as I work through dental school. Regardless, I still have 1-2 years of pre-requisites before I can make a decision on any of these careers. I’m leaning mostly towards dentistry to open up a small private practice, but I think the anesthesiology path is interesting because you can work as a contractor and the idea of setting my own hours and still making a decent amount of money is great.

Any advice or guidance?

Dentistry is definitely entrepreneurial. Even if you had 400k in debt, there are some debt "restructuring" and/or stall tactics you can do to be able to get enough money to start an office. Even in the many years of practicing as a solo dentist, we're still growing. I remember when we first started, it was 1MM, then 2MM, then 3MM, then 4MM, going towards 5MM.... there's always room for growth as we get older, and there are other ways to make a lot more money that aren't always legal, but there are societal consequences if you get caught.

Other option is to just open medical clinics, hire a medical director, and hide behind their licenses. You'll be surprised how affordable MDs are to hire and how your scope of practice opens up so much by hiring one. One example are pain management and/or weight loss clinics. Low overhead, high profit. You don't need an MD to do MD stuff. Just a medical director with a license to practice medicine.

WOW. You plan on living extravagantly. Good for you. You can still live a great life with less than 10M.

400k/year goes by pretty quick, especially if you have kids and family.

 

[charlestweed]

That’s quite the number. What makes you so sure you’ll make that much? And how many years from now do you think you’ll get there?

There's a huge difference in income between working 4 days vs 6 days a week. Assuming one takes 2 wk vacation yearly, it's 200 work days (4 days x 50 wks) vs 300 work days (6 daysx 50 wks). That's 100 more work days in a year....that's a significant difference in income between the 2. For a person in his late 20s to mid 30s with no kids (or has kids but are still very little...like 1 or 2 yo), this is totally doable for 2-3 yrs straight after graduation. The 100 extra work days per year should allow him/her to cut his $600k debt in half in 2-3 yrs. With the remaining $300k, he can breath easier and can slow down to 4 days a wk if he wants to. But for a 40+ yo body with teenage kids, this is hard. That's why it's important to finish school early.

There are essentially only 2 ways to deal with the debt problem: either increase your income or try to borrow less loans. But the latter is not within one's control since the it is the school that dictates the amount of tuition it wants to charge. So this leaves the student with only 1 option....and that is to increase his income. I guess the 3rd option is to pick another profession. And the 4th option is ”marry up” but for this to be possible , one must first have a stable job and solid long term career plan.

 

[charlestweed]

400k/year goes by pretty quick, especially if you have kids and family.

And live in HCOL area like So Cal, NYC, or New Jersey. Couldn't agree more.

 

[softwaredentist]

That’s quite the number. What makes you so sure you’ll make that much? And how many years from now do you think you’ll get there?

It will take roughly 10-12 years. I would like to specialize in endodontics, periodontics, or ortho. I'm fine never being an owner and just working a lot. I'll reinvest all my money into real estate or index funds. I'm not sure I'll make that much, but I sure know that the alternative of not doing healthcare will just lead me down a very bad path. Job insecurity + not having high income skills to be able to ever afford having a family. I don't really see any other way forward, but if you could enlighten me: what careers can I make a stable high income, not be displaced by outsourcing, and be able to work without having to live in a HCOL area?

 

[New_Vegas]

It will take roughly 10-12 years. I would like to specialize in endodontics, periodontics, or ortho. I'm fine never being an owner and just working a lot. I'll reinvest all my money into real estate or index funds. I'm not sure I'll make that much, but I sure know that the alternative of not doing healthcare will just lead me down a very bad path. Job insecurity + not having high income skills to be able to ever afford having a family. I don't really see any other way forward, but if you could enlighten me: what careers can I make a stable high income, not be displaced by outsourcing, and be able to work without having to live in a HCOL area?

Sounds like a computer programmer job could fill that role

 

[JacquesVallee]

There are plenty of them, especially the Asian dentists, in So Cal who are doing this because of the oversaturated market. They do not only work 6 days they also do their own cleaning....no hygienist. Many of them work at the same corp with me...they work P/T for corp and work P/T at their own offices on Saturdays and Sundays. Many of them are my referring dentists.

99% of dentists will wisely never work 6-7 days a week and for good reason. So, we need to be speaking to the average pre-dent here. To any pre-dent reading this, do not plan on ever working this many days a week.

 

[Rush_motion]

historically many chose dentistry, including oral surgeons and omfs residents, for the lifestyle (when compared to medicine).
Four days a week was the likely picture that most had, while still making a ton of money.

With today’s saturation and high cost of attendance approaching 500-700k for many students (not including undergrad debt and dare I say residency tuition), those days are over.

There is no way in hell I would work 7 days a week. No oral surgeon I know including attendings work 7 days a week.

In this day and age I would strongly consider the military scholarship.

 

[JacquesVallee]

historically many chose dentistry, including oral surgeons and omfs residents, for the lifestyle (when compared to medicine).
Four days a week was the likely picture that most had, while still making a ton of money.

With today’s saturation and high cost of attendance approaching 500-700k for many students (not including undergrad debt and dare I say residency tuition), those days are over.

There is no way in hell I would work 7 days a week. No oral surgeon I know including attendings work 7 days a week.

In this day and age I would strongly consider the military scholarship.

I no joke would rather stock shelves at Walmart than work 7 days a week as a dentist. What Charles is advocating represents a massive decline in our field. No sane American would EVER work 7 days a week as a dentist.

 

[charlestweed]

historically many chose dentistry, including oral surgeons and omfs residents, for the lifestyle (when compared to medicine).
Four days a week was the likely picture that most had, while still making a ton of money.

With today’s saturation and high cost of attendance approaching 500-700k for many students (not including undergrad debt and dare I say residency tuition), those days are over.

There is no way in hell I would work 7 days a week. No oral surgeon I know including attendings work 7 days a week.

In this day and age I would strongly consider the military scholarship.

No need for you, OS guys, to work 7 days a wk since you are compensated very well for the work you perform. $700k debt is easily manageable with your insanely high income. My message was for the GP new grads with $6-700k loan and only started out with $120-130k income. You spend the same amount of time to take out 4 wisdom teeth as a general dentist spends on doing a MOD filling and you get paid several times more. But to get to where you are now, I am sure you have to work very hard. I am no OS but I've heard that OS residency training is brutal....it's probably equivalent to someone working 7 days a wk for 4-6 yrs. You had worked hard and you deserve the good pay.

It's the same for my exodontist friend. He got tired of working as a GP for so many years. He learned how to compex procedures so he didn't need to work 6 days a wk like he used to. And his hard work has paid off for him. I am sure a lot of general dentists are taking CE classes for the same reason......so they can work less and make more.

If you can pay off your student loans debt fast with less work days, then there's no reason to kill yourself by working harder.

 

[charlestweed]

I no joke would rather stock shelves at Walmart than work 7 days a week as a dentist. What Charles is advocating represents a massive decline in our field. No sane American would EVER work 7 days a week as a dentist.

Yeah, I hope my message of working 7 days would scare the heck out of many predents. So they won't spend $6-700k on dental school and expect to have a good life working 4 days a wk with such massive debt amount.

 

[schmoob]

I would like to specialize in endodontics, periodontics, or ortho.

WILDLY different careers. You don’t know what you don’t know.

but if you could enlighten me: what careers can I make a stable high income, not be displaced by outsourcing, and be able to work without having to live in a HCOL area?

Learn a TRADE. Like I mentioned earlier, electrician, plumbing, pipe fitting, carpentry, etc. You don’t pay to get trained. You start earning day 1. Join the Union and enjoy the great pay and benefits, especially once you reach journeyman. It’s not about how much you make, but how much you keep.
I hired a guy to mount my TVs on the wall and one column. They were floating TVs, no visible wires, and had LED lights backlit to reflect on the walls. Cost me a $1000 for a few hours of his work. Looked great. He has no office and almost no overhead except his truck.
There are ways to make money. Title and prestige mean nothing if you need to work 6-7 days a week just to stay afloat.
Or, just join the military. Can’t get more stable than that.

 

[New_Vegas]

WILDLY different careers. You don’t know what you don’t know.


Learn a TRADE. Like I mentioned earlier, electrician, plumbing, pipe fitting, carpentry, etc. You don’t pay to get trained. You start earning day 1. Join the Union and enjoy the great pay and benefits, especially once you reach journeyman. It’s not about how much you make, but how much you keep.
I hired a guy to mount my TVs on the wall and one column. They were floating TVs, no visible wires, and had LED lights backlit to reflect on the walls. Cost me a $1000 for a few hours of his work. Looked great. He has no office and almost no overhead except his truck.
There are ways to make money. Title and prestige mean nothing if you need to work 6-7 days a week just to stay afloat.
Or, just join the military. Can’t get more stable than that.

Let me just say I don't think there is any prestige whatsoever with being a dentist. In fact, there is stigma. I've never met a single person, not one, who has been impressed when they found out i'm a dentist. I've had people ask me if I went into dentistry because I couldn't get into medical school.. i've had people tell me they hate the dentist. I've had people ask me how I could stand looking in mouths all day. There is literally zero prestige with being a dentist. None at all. And I couldn't care less. But, I do find it funny when pre-dents think they are entering some prestigious field, haha. They're bound to be disappointed when they get to the other side.

 

[mjzccle19701]

Let me just say I don't think there is any prestige whatsoever with being a dentist. In fact, there is stigma. I've never met a single person, not one, who has been impressed when they found out i'm a dentist. I've had people ask me if I went into dentistry because I couldn't get into medical school.. i've had people tell me they hate the dentist. I've had people ask me how I could stand looking in mouths all day. There is literally zero prestige with being a dentist. None at all. And I couldn't care less. But, I do find it funny when pre-dents think they are entering some prestigious field, haha. They're bound to be disappointed when they get to the other side.

n = 1. Plenty of my friends think it’s cool I’ll be a dentist. I don’t care either way, but there is still some perceived prestige. It’s a reason why people sign up for the job. I can’t think of a single job that is prestigious other than people working in the upper echelons of their field.

 

[New_Vegas]

n = 1. Plenty of my friends think it’s cool I’ll be a dentist. I don’t care either way, but there is still some perceived prestige. It’s a reason why people sign up for the job. I can’t think of a single job that is prestigious other than people working in the upper echelons of their field.

I could say n=1 for you too. We may never see eye to eye on this, but that's fine.

My observations have been this - there are some nearly universally respected careers like teachers, firemen, policemen (except for the whack jobs that hate police). Dentists usually are a tier or two or three below that, where people don't trust as much because think they are always looking to do unnecessary work, etc. I also think dentists fall somewhere in the category of plumbers, where people may be repulsed a bit by the nature of the work. Or their perception is tainted by some negative experience they had at a dental office.

 

[mjzccle19701]

I could say n=1 for you too. We may never see eye to eye on this, but that's fine.

My observations have been this - there are some nearly universally respected careers like teachers, firemen, policemen (except for the whack jobs that hate police). Dentists usually are a tier or two or three below that, where people don't trust as much because think they are always looking to do unnecessary work, etc. I also think dentists fall somewhere in the category of plumbers, where people may be repulsed a bit by the nature of the work. Or their perception is tainted by some negative experience they had at a dental office.

I guess when you look at it from a super zoomed out view like how a patient would look at it then sure. But if you think of the stereotypical country club fancy rich neighborhoods - you think doctor dentist lawyer. Regardless of whether it’s true or not. I also tend to think of the merit behind prestige rather than the respect. People think the ivys are prestigious. People think doctorate degrees are prestigious. I think prestige is generally BS and doesn’t mean anything. It’s a marketing tool.

 

[Rush_motion]

In terms of prestige… I’ll say this. You will feel small when you go to a private school event and your kids’ friends’ parents have a net worth of over 100 M and they live in >30M homes. At their school charity and fundraiser events those same people will drop 25 k in donations as if it’s a penny to them. You will truly understand how small dentists really are.

No one looks down on us. It’s just not impressive.
That goes for ALL dental providers, oral surgeons included.

It all depends which circle you belong in.
Cheers.

 

[New_Vegas]

No one looks down on us. It’s just not impressive.

Some may look down on us, but otherwise yes I totally agree - it's really not impressive at all.

 

[mjzccle19701]

In terms of prestige… I’ll say this. You will feel small when you go to a private school event and your kids’ friends’ parents have a net worth of over 100 M and they live in >30M homes. At their school charity and fundraiser events those same people will drop 25 k in donations as if it’s a penny to them. You will truly understand how small dentists really are.

No one looks down on us. It’s just not impressive.
That goes for ALL dental providers, oral surgeons included.

It all depends which circle you belong in.
Cheers.

The fact that you are in that social circle is a testament to the “prestigious” nature of your job. You get a seat at the table. Even if it’s the most uncomfortable seat.

 

[schmoob]

I guess when you look at it from a super zoomed out view like how a patient would look at it then sure. But if you think of the stereotypical country club fancy rich neighborhoods - you think doctor dentist lawyer. Regardless of whether it’s true or not. I also tend to think of the merit behind prestige rather than the respect. People think the ivys are prestigious. People think doctorate degrees are prestigious. I think prestige is generally BS and doesn’t mean anything. It’s a marketing tool.

My wife is a lawyer. Seeing things from the other side, definitely not prestigious.

 

[mjzccle19701]

My wife is a lawyer. Seeing things from the other side, definitely not prestigious.

I have doctors in the family. I already know that none of these jobs are prestigious. I don’t know a single job that is prestigious. But most people think those big three are for some reason.

 

[New_Vegas]

I have doctors in the family. I already know that none of these jobs are prestigious. I don’t know a single job that is prestigious. But most people think those big three are for some reason.

Of those three the public probably only sees doctors as generally favorable.

I don't think the same could be said about dentists or lawyers.

 

[Rush_motion]

Of those three the public probably only sees doctors as generally favorable.

I don't think the same could be said about dentists or lawyers.

What are two things that look good hanging from a tree?
Apples and lawyers

 

[JacquesVallee]

What are two things that look good hanging from a tree?
Apples and lawyers

Uhhhhhhhh

 

[softwaredentist]

WILDLY different careers. You don’t know what you don’t know.


Learn a TRADE. Like I mentioned earlier, electrician, plumbing, pipe fitting, carpentry, etc. You don’t pay to get trained. You start earning day 1. Join the Union and enjoy the great pay and benefits, especially once you reach journeyman. It’s not about how much you make, but how much you keep.
I hired a guy to mount my TVs on the wall and one column. They were floating TVs, no visible wires, and had LED lights backlit to reflect on the walls. Cost me a $1000 for a few hours of his work. Looked great. He has no office and almost no overhead except his truck.
There are ways to make money. Title and prestige mean nothing if you need to work 6-7 days a week just to stay afloat.
Or, just join the military. Can’t get more stable than that.

Thank you for the advice, I appreciate it. I really want to be a dental specialist because I think it's a nice job but after doing the calculations, crunching the tuition numbers, directPlus loan, and private loan, and the rough estimate of what dentists make it seems extremely risky for me to pursue, especially considering that I will take another 10-12 years to get to finally be a practicing solo doc. I think even becoming a medical doctor is slightly better with the numbers. The investment to become a dentist makes sense if I'm a specialist, but the amount of debt is truly daunting. If anything were to go wrong, like I break a finger or physically I'm unable to work for some reason, I would be staring down an abyss of 700,000$ with no way to repay and interest snowballing into millions.

Regardless, I am pretty set on this path. I still have another year and half and I'm going to finish the pre reqs I need to get into dental school. In the meantime I will do everything I can to start up more businesses to save as much money as possible. The way I see it is if I can save up a cash pile of $300K-$700K it would minimize the burden significantly, and make it worth it because I'll be a licensed professional with a valuable skill and an extremely high moat. In the next 10-20 years I project that there will be a severe shortage of dental specialists due to all these factors of how expensive tuition has become.

 

[softwaredentist]

Let me just say I don't think there is any prestige whatsoever with being a dentist. In fact, there is stigma. I've never met a single person, not one, who has been impressed when they found out i'm a dentist. I've had people ask me if I went into dentistry because I couldn't get into medical school.. i've had people tell me they hate the dentist. I've had people ask me how I could stand looking in mouths all day. There is literally zero prestige with being a dentist. None at all. And I couldn't care less. But, I do find it funny when pre-dents think they are entering some prestigious field, haha. They're bound to be disappointed when they get to the other side.

I was recently a busboy cleaning tables for 3 months. I couldn't care less about what's prestigious or not, all I know is that dentists, like doctors, have to study a lot and work hard and that's admirable.

The rich people who inherit businesses, private equity, hedge fund, and investors who just leech off everyone else's hard work may have billions and donate money to schools and things but they don't work hard. They don't produce or create any value to society, they just own and wash dollars that they inherit for nothing, that one of their ancestors may have worked hard to create or enslave others for. They delegate any hard work to other people. They just push paper around. I have no respect for them.

 

[New_Vegas]

I was recently a busboy cleaning tables for 3 months. I couldn't care less about what's prestigious or not, all I know is that dentists, like doctors, have to study a lot and work hard and that's admirable.

The rich people who inherit businesses, private equity, hedge fund, and investors who just leech off everyone else's hard work may have billions and donate money to schools and things but they don't work hard. They don't produce or create any value to society, they just own and wash dollars that they inherit for nothing, that one of their ancestors may have worked hard to create or enslave others for. They delegate any hard work to other people. They just push paper around. I have no respect for them.

Most wealthy people are self made. Dont waste your brain cells getting mad at people who inherit wealth. It doesn't affect you in any way.

 

[New_Vegas]

In the next 10-20 years I project that there will be a severe shortage of dental specialists due to all these factors of how expensive tuition has become.

😂

 

[schmoob]

In the next 10-20 years I project that there will be a severe shortage of dental specialists due to all these factors of how expensive tuition has become.

There is a demographic you’re not taking into consideration. The foreign trained dentist who specializes to get their license and they pay cash for their residency. I remember this one perio resident who drove a Maserati.
The specialties aren’t going anywhere. If you want to specialize and not have debt then the military is your best option

 

[softwaredentist]

Most wealthy people are self made. Dont waste your brain cells getting mad at people who inherit wealth. It doesn't affect you in any way.

Notice the the word "inherit", I have nothing against self made wealthy people.

😂

Do you disagree? Or you think the field will be flooded with specialists in 10-20 years?

I'm not sure if you know but the government just approved policy changes and now the federal government only loans $50K a year and a lifetime cap of $200K, so the rest of the education will have to be funded with private loans at an 18% APR which is suffocating on $500K of debt. Paired with healthcare insurance reimbursement stagnation, cost of supplies increasing, staffing costs increasing, property and plant increasing, the financial incentive to go into healthcare is greatly diminished. Plus, tons of new dental schools opening will lead to an oversaturation of general dentists with massive debts. I estimate that this will discourage the supply of people who choose to go into healtchare roles once they realize how bad the financial return is.

I'm curious to know your thoughts?

 

[softwaredentist]

There is a demographic you’re not taking into consideration. The foreign trained dentist who specializes to get their license and they pay cash for their residency. I remember this one perio resident who drove a Maserati.
The specialties aren’t going anywhere. If you want to specialize and not have debt then the military is your best option

That is true, some foreigners will enslave themselves to 30 years of debt to practice in the US

 

[New_Vegas]

Notice the the word "inherit", I have nothing against self made wealthy people.

Do you disagree? Or you think the field will be flooded with specialists in 10-20 years?

I'm not sure if you know but the government just approved policy changes and now the federal government only loans $50K a year and a lifetime cap of $200K, so the rest of the education will have to be funded with private loans at an 18% APR which is suffocating on $500K of debt. Paired with healthcare insurance reimbursement stagnation, cost of supplies increasing, staffing costs increasing, property and plant increasing, the financial incentive to go into healthcare is greatly diminished. Plus, tons of new dental schools opening will lead to an oversaturation of general dentists with massive debts. I estimate that this will discourage the supply of people who choose to go into healtchare roles once they realize how bad the financial return is.

I'm curious to know your thoughts?

There's no stopping naive pre-dents such as yourself from wanting to go into the specialties. If you go to dental school, you will see your whole class will want to specialize at the beginning of D1. Pre-dents don't have the financial sense to uunderstand the consequences of their decisions, and that's why they are going to dental school in the first place. Ortho is insanely saturated and only getting worse. Pediatrics seems like its starting to get saturated too. In my area, seems like there multiple peds offices opening up every year. Not sure how the other specialties are doing, but I can guarantee you there is some greedy people out there trying to create more programs in all specialties to enrich themselves at the expense of ruining the field.

 

[charlestweed]

That is true, some foreigners will enslave themselves to 30 years of debt to practice in the US

They’d rather do this than moving back to their home country because America is the land of opportunities. The upside potential is much higher here. When you own a dental practice in the US, the sky’s the limit. Many of my assistants was practicing dentists in their home countries. They didn’t have the financial means and the stats to continue their dental education in the US. But they’d rather work as assistants here because they get paid more here than what they made in their home countries as practicing dentists.

America welcomed me with open arms. I came here as a political refugee when I was 15. When I started college here, I hadn’t become a US citizen yet (I just had a green card) and yet, my full 4 years of undergrad tuitions were paid for by the US taxpayers. I wouldn’t be where I am at now if I stayed at my birth country, where there is no freedom, no human right. On the day I took an oath to become a citizen of this great country, I felt like I won a lottery. Thank you, America!

My co-resident at my ortho program is doing very well. He currently owns 7 offices. He wouldn’t be where he’s at now if he stayed at his home country in England. Locations – Yeh Orthodontics

 

[JacquesVallee]

There is a demographic you’re not taking into consideration. The foreign trained dentist who specializes to get their license and they pay cash for their residency. I remember this one perio resident who drove a Maserati.
The specialties aren’t going anywhere. If you want to specialize and not have debt then the military is your best option

This is a huge issue. Now with the BBB, US grads won't go into Ortho, Perio, Prosth, etc because they'd have to take out predatory private loans. Instead of, dare I say, lowering costs, programs will simply cater to the wealthy foreign dentists who want a US license. GME programs will now become extraordinarily more competitive. I know the couple of funded ortho programs are an absolute blood bath to get into.

When I started college here, I hadn’t become a US citizen yet (I just had a green card) and yet, my full 4 years of undergrad tuitions were paid for by the US taxpayers.

Meanwhile, I, a US citizen whose ancestors built this country as farmers in the 1800s, had to take out some loans for undergrad.

Do you disagree? Or you think the field will be flooded with specialists in 10-20 years?

Besides OS (since requirements to open a program are very strict), I would expect yes. Everyone is opening specialty programs these days charging crazy tuition. As New Vegas said, even Peds is getting saturated because there are legit like hundreds of peds programs. The only tuition-based specialty that seems to be doing very well is endo.

 

[charlestweed]

Meanwhile, I, a US citizen whose ancestors built this country as farmers in the 1800s, had to take out some loans for undergrad.

This just shows how great and generous this country is. America took our family in without the expectation of us to contribute/to pay back. We were from a third world communist country and had no clear background. And yet, the US government still let us in. Lent us the money (interest free) for the flight tickets to America. And when I started college, they paid for my undegrad tuition. I am forever grateful for America's generosity and the people like your ancestors who helped built this great country.

 

[JacquesVallee]

This just shows how great and generous this country is. America took our family in without the expectation of us to contribute/to pay back. We were from a third world communist country and had no clear background. And yet, the US government still let us in. Lent us the money (interest free) for the flight tickets to America. And when I started college, they paid for my undegrad tuition. I am forever grateful for America's generosity and the people like your ancestors who helped built this great country.

Love it, man. Happy to have you and your family here!

 

[TanMan]

Working 7 days a week is an easy way to burn out. It's better to work a few days a week of intense production than a week of less production. The lifestyle difference between 10MM and 100MM isn't that much more different. Also depends on your liquidity. Being worth 100MM and having access to 100MM of liquid capital are two totally different things. Of course, if it's OPM, there might be more eyes on you as well.

Prestige is annoying, being recognizable in public is annoying. It's better to have lots of money to have the freedom to do whatever you want, without any scrutiny and eyes on you.

Make that money, live the lifestyle you want, even if you die a broke person, if you enjoyed your life to the max and did everything you want in this lifetime, who cares if you have no money left to give to your heirs. It's their responsibility to make it on their own. Every day on this earth is a blessing. I assume that I may not wake up the following day. You could drop dead or be permanently disabled and I'm sure you won't say I wish I worked another day, but you might say, I wish I did x and x, but now I can't.

 

[charlestweed]

Working 7 days a week is an easy way to burn out. It's better to work a few days a week of intense production than a week of less production. The lifestyle difference between 10MM and 100MM isn't that much more different. Also depends on your liquidity. Being worth 100MM and having access to 100MM of liquid capital are two totally different things. Of course, if it's OPM, there might be more eyes on you as well.

I agree. But I don’t think it’s bad if you only have to work like this for the first 3-4 years…just to reduce the financial pressure (student loan debt, practice loans, rents etc) at the initial stage of your career. It's easier when you are still young and healthy and have no kid because you have plenty of free time on your hands. The physicians (and the oral surgeons) all had to work 6 days, 10 + hours a day, on Saturdays and Sundays for very low pays for at least 3 years after their graduation…it’s called medical residency. Why can’t we, dentists, especially the ones who owe $6-700k debt, do the same? It’s of course better not to dig yourself into this hole by avoiding dental school altogether. But what other options do have if you’re already a dentist who is in this deep hole?

When I first opened my own office from scratch, I didn’t quit my full time associate job at the corp because I didn’t want to lose the lifestyle that I had enjoyed (a nice house, a 7 series BMW, expensive vacation trips, staying at 5 star hotels etc) for years. The cash flow (thanks to my associate job) had always been on the positive territory despite the fact that my newly built office had very few patients. I didn’t have to downgrade my lifestyle. I’d much rather face the stress of working 6 days/wk than facing the stress of having an empty appointment book, of not being busy enough, of not producing enough money to pay the office rent, staff salaries, and other fixed business expenses. The cool thing about working for myself (vs woking for someone else) is I don’t feel tired or stress even when I am extremely busy. It’s actually the opposite feeling…. being busy at my own office is a good thing. Being busy means the new practice is growing. Successful practice = a happy owner.

Make that money, live the lifestyle you want, even if you die a broke person, if you enjoyed your life to the max and did everything you want in this lifetime, who cares if you have no money left to give to your heirs. It's their responsibility to make it on their own. Every day on this earth is a blessing. I assume that I may not wake up the following day. You could drop dead or be permanently disabled and I'm sure you won't say I wish I worked another day, but you might say, I wish I did x and x, but now I can't.

It’s hard when your children are still young (under 18 yo) and are still depending on you for your financial support. Kids are expensive. Having disability and life insurances help but these won't be enough to give them a better lifestyle than what you had when you were at their age.

 

[schmoob]

That is true, some foreigners will enslave themselves to 30 years of debt to practice in the US

What? No. These are wealthy foreign dentists who drop $100K cash a year in tuition plus their living expenses.
They are not going into debt. Since they are foreign they are not eligible for student loans. They already have lots of money. And American students who are willing and even eligible to go into $1MM in debt have to compete with them.
So if you’re wanting to specialize you need to keep this in mind. It’s like poker, you’re going up against someone who has all the chips.

 

[charlestweed]

What? No. These are wealthy foreign dentists who drop $100K cash a year in tuition plus their living expenses.
They are not going into debt. Since they are foreign they are not eligible for student loans. They already have lots of money. And American students who are willing and even eligible to go into $1MM in debt have to compete with them.
So if you’re wanting to specialize you need to keep this in mind. It’s like poker, you’re going up against someone who has all the chips.

I've met a lot of foreign trained dentists at the corp where I currently work at. Not all of them are rich. Some had to borrow money from their relatives and they are working hard to pay back the money they owe.

 

[TanMan]

I agree. But I don’t think it’s bad if you only have to work like this for the first 3-4 years…just to reduce the financial pressure (student loan debt, practice loans, rents etc) at the initial stage of your career. It's easier when you are still young and healthy and have no kid because you have plenty of free time on your hands. The physicians (and the oral surgeons) all had to work 6 days, 10 + hours a day, on Saturdays and Sundays for very low pays for at least 3 years after their graduation…it’s called medical residency. Why can’t we, dentists, especially the ones who owe $6-700k debt, do the same? It’s of course better not to dig yourself into this hole by avoiding dental school altogether. But what other options do have if you’re already a dentist who is in this deep hole?

When I first opened my own office from scratch, I didn’t quit my full time associate job at the corp because I didn’t want to lose the lifestyle that had I enjoyed (a nice house, a 7 series BMW, expensive vacation trips, staying at 5 star hotels etc) for years. The cash flow (thanks to my associate job) had always been on the positive territory despite the fact that my newly built office had very few patients. I didn’t have to downgrade my lifestyle. I’d much rather face the stress of working 6 days/wk than facing the stress of having an empty appointment book, of not being busy enough, of not producing enough money to pay the office rent, staff salaries, and other fixed business expenses. The cool thing about working for myself (vs woking for someone else) is I don’t feel tired or stress even when I am extremely busy. It’s actually the opposite feeling…. being busy at my own office is a good thing. Being busy means the new practice is growing. Successful practice = a happy owner.

It’s hard when your children are still young (under 18 yo) and are still depending on you for your financial support. Kids are expensive. Having disability and life insurances help but these won't be enough to give them a better lifestyle than what you had when you were at their age.

That is true, but I think that more days does not always mean more money. I think what we should focus more on is productivity / hour. Theoretically, if you put in 40 hours v. 56 hours, you should have the same hourly income. However, for example, if you are making 100k/week at 40 hours v. 56 hours, it would be better to make it over a span of 40 hours/5 days (or even 32 hours over 4-5 days) than a seemly tortuous 56 hours / 7 days. Hopefully this makes some sense. I've been cutting more and more hours and days per month, but still seeing an increase in production/income. As professionals, we should strive to become more efficient throughout our career.

I love your take on the refusal to cut back on lifestyle. For as long as we can work hard, we shouldn't have to cut back on our creature comforts.

Kids are expensive, but I believe some adversity breeds strength in shaping them to be adults. I would rather have my kids take out loans for school under the premise that if they do well and succeed, I'll pay it off as a reward and then some. If they fail miserably, then they are on their own. They should own up to their own failures and hope that the guidance we've given them is sufficient for them to succeed.

 

[charlestweed]

That is true, but I think that more days does not always mean more money. I think what we should focus more on is productivity / hour. Theoretically, if you put in 40 hours v. 56 hours, you should have the same hourly income. However, for example, if you are making 100k/week at 40 hours v. 56 hours, it would be better to make it over a span of 40 hours/5 days (or even 32 hours over 4-5 days) than a seemly tortuous 56 hours / 7 days. Hopefully this makes some sense. I've been cutting more and more hours and days per month, but still seeing an increase in production/income. As professionals, we should strive to become more efficient throughout our career.

Agree. It makes total sense. I'd much rather see more patients in a day and work less days per month. For ortho, it's easy because I can just hire more chairside assistants to do the work for me. That's why I only need work a few days in my office and spend the other free days in the month to travel to work at other offices (my other 2 offices and corp offices).

I love your take on the refusal to cut back on lifestyle. For as long as we can work hard, we shouldn't have to cut back on our creature comforts.

Yeah, I want to able to spend freely and give freely without having to worry about hurting the family budget. Working 6 days/wk doesn't mean that you won't be able have fun. You can still have vacation trips several times in a year. You just need to plan things a few month in advance. The nice thing about having your own office is you can close the office any time you want to......but you usually have to work harder to make up for the lost days when you come back from your vacation.

Kids are expensive, but I believe some adversity breeds strength in shaping them to be adults. I would rather have my kids take out loans for school under the premise that if they do well and succeed, I'll pay it off as a reward and then some. If they fail miserably, then they are on their own. They should own up to their own failures and hope that the guidance we've given them is sufficient for them to succeed.

Also agree. I wouldn't have the same success that I have now if I had rich parents who helped me pay for everything. Being in debt helped motivate me to work hard. With the insane amount that schools now charge their students, I have to help my kid a little bit. It's hard not to spoil your own child. I hope he will become a good productive member of the society when he gets out.