Soleimani Death

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Did Iran missiles really miss their US targets?
Or did Iran intentionally miss?

If it was an intentional miss and they have some 700 missiles within range of US bases in the middle east then our troops may have a cross hair on their backs continually. None of those 12+ missiles were intercepted and all landed inside the confines of their target walls as I understand it.

Intentionally missing fails Occam's razor. Iran hasn't stated any claim of intentionally missing - though of course we have no reason to believe anything they say about anything. And from what I understand, they used mostly Qiam-1 missiles. Per my definitive source (Wikipedia) they have an accuracy of 500 m. The Al Asad air base is something like 5000 or 10000 acres. Some impacts were in fields and some hit buildings. The nature of random hits on an airfield is that some hit buildings and some don't ... I can't tell the difference between normal distribution of a missile with 500 m accuracy vs a couple of actual precision munitions. Maybe those weren't Qiam-1s.

I don't think they intentionally missed anything. I think they didn't want there to be any loss of life causing further escalation, hence the early notification of the attack.

The short range antiaircraft missile that hit the airliner is a different animal altogether. That clearly worked exactly as designed. Though it's hard to assess how useful it would be vs military aircraft, which unlike a passenger jet, aren't fat and slow with huge radar cross sections and no countermeasures and no maneuverability.
 
Let me preface by saying that Soleimani was an enemy of the US and I'm not shedding any tears for his death. Maybe he even needed to meet his end at some point, but your Monday morning QB'ing of how "great" things turned out for us is pure retrospective bias. There was no guarantee that Iran would stop at their latest PR stunt or that troops wouldn't be killed, and indeed we still don't what may be coming further down the pike. Again, the reporting is that people within the Pentagon who have all the intel and who actually know what they're talking about in regard to proportionate responses thought killing Soleimani was an extreme option, likely wasn't going to be selected, and that it was offered in the hopes that a more moderate response would be chosen by Trump.

In regard to overescalation, I'm sure there were direct, violent responses to the embassy attack that were more measured than killing a guy so popular he might as well have been Persian Tom Hanks, so how about you don't simply handwave away tragedies (even if they are the Iranians' fault at the end of the chain) and just acknowledge that overescalation and increasing of tensions is precisely what led to the sequence of events that caused a stampede and caused 170-some people to die in a plane crash. Hell, I just got back to the states on an international flight that took two more hours than it should've because it had to avoid Iran and most of Iraqi airspace.

More generally though than who had the better week, who here thinks the US overall is safer and/or Middle East tensions are better since the US withdrew from the Iran nuclear agreement that all of Europe still wants? Who here thinks the US and her citizens are safer since killing Soleimani? I know I surely don't.

dr_doze had a good and cogent response to this so I won't repeat a lot of what he wrote.

If you were exceptionally bored and looked through my posting history the last 10 years, I have always held that Iran's leaders are rational, and I have always favored containment and deterrence over invasion or even direct bombing campaigns within their borders.

My unease with withdrawal from the nuclear deal, as I touched on earlier in this thread, has more to do with the way a lot of international agreements aka treaties skip the Senate ratification stage, which leads to president-to-president volatility of those agreements, which weakens the negotiating strength of the United States in the long term. But taken in a vacuum, I think it was a bad deal and would have preferred crushing economic sanctions starting at that time.

Khamenei has repeatedly said that nuclear weapons are an affront to Islam, and that Iran is not seeking to develop and possess them. Of course we know this is a lie.

My only disappointment in the Soleimani attack is that we didn't get the guy in Yemen at the same time.

Bottom line, while I don't really like the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome" I can't help but think that the Democrats' and media's reaction to the events of the last few months are influenced by it. Again, whacking Soleimani wasn't a random whimsical event out of nowhere, or some kind of unilateral aggression and escalation. Iran has been progressively escalating their attacks for months. You know the list; I won't repeat it here. Trump has responded with extraordinary restraint.

We were told repeatedly during the 2016 election, by the campaign of the strong, firm, hawkish Clinton, that Trump was a loose cannon that would kick off WWIII. The reality is that one of the few areas of consistency he has displayed in the last 3 years is reluctance to initiate military action. Perhaps even to a fault. The right has been very critical of his restraint. He was excoriated by the right wing press and twittersphere when he called off the retaliation for our drone being shot down in international airspace. And again when he didn't empty the silos after Saudi Arabia was attacked.

What do you want me to say? An operation that I wholeheartedly approve of went well, and the geopolitical result appears to be an overwhelmingly positive one.

I don't know where you get the idea that Soleimani was wildly popular in Iran. He and his Quds did a lot of brutal work keeping Iranians in line over the years, to put it mildly. Part of the tragedy of the dead mourners is that many of them were likely compelled to be there. And with regard to him being the Persian Tom Hanks, it's obvious to any casual observer that his role will be played by Sean Connery in the movie.
 
dr_doze had a good and cogent response to this so I won't repeat a lot of what he wrote.

If you were exceptionally bored and looked through my posting history the last 10 years, I have always held that Iran's leaders are rational, and I have always favored containment and deterrence over invasion or even direct bombing campaigns within their borders.

My unease with withdrawal from the nuclear deal, as I touched on earlier in this thread, has more to do with the way a lot of international agreements aka treaties skip the Senate ratification stage, which leads to president-to-president volatility of those agreements, which weakens the negotiating strength of the United States in the long term. But taken in a vacuum, I think it was a bad deal and would have preferred crushing economic sanctions starting at that time.

Khamenei has repeatedly said that nuclear weapons are an affront to Islam, and that Iran is not seeking to develop and possess them. Of course we know this is a lie.

My only disappointment in the Soleimani attack is that we didn't get the guy in Yemen at the same time.

Bottom line, while I don't really like the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome" I can't help but think that the Democrats' and media's reaction to the events of the last few months are influenced by it. Again, whacking Soleimani wasn't a random whimsical event out of nowhere, or some kind of unilateral aggression and escalation. Iran has been progressively escalating their attacks for months. You know the list; I won't repeat it here. Trump has responded with extraordinary restraint.

We were told repeatedly during the 2016 election, by the campaign of the strong, firm, hawkish Clinton, that Trump was a loose cannon that would kick off WWIII. The reality is that one of the few areas of consistency he has displayed in the last 3 years is reluctance to initiate military action. Perhaps even to a fault. The right has been very critical of his restraint. He was excoriated by the right wing press and twittersphere when he called off the retaliation for our drone being shot down in international airspace. And again when he didn't empty the silos after Saudi Arabia was attacked.

What do you want me to say? An operation that I wholeheartedly approve of went well, and the geopolitical result appears to be an overwhelmingly positive one.

I don't know where you get the idea that Soleimani was wildly popular in Iran. He and his Quds did a lot of brutal work keeping Iranians in line over the years, to put it mildly. Part of the tragedy of the dead mourners is that many of them were likely compelled to be there. And with regard to him being the Persian Tom Hanks, it's obvious to any casual observer that his role will be played by Sean Connery in the movie.


Who here is saying that killing Soleimani was a random whimsical event out of nowhere and was unilateral? For I think the third time now, I am telling you that reporting about the matter states that the Pentagon offered the Soleimani option as an extreme one to make moderate ones seem more palatable. We can engage in preemption without overescalating by killing wildly popular, high-level officials. Our current situation is not analogous to dr_doze's mention of Israel and Saddam's nuclear reactor. If there is a reactor in late-stage development, that is a totally different beast.

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They didn’t think he would take it. In the wars waged since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Pentagon officials have often offered improbable options to presidents to make other possibilities appear more palatable.

After initially rejecting the Soleimani option on Dec. 28 and authorizing airstrikes on an Iranian-backed Shiite militia group instead, a few days later Trump watched, fuming, as television reports showed Iranian-backed attacks on the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, according to Defense Department and administration officials.

By late Thursday, the president had gone for the extreme option. Top Pentagon officials were stunned.

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Regardless of what you think, the Pentagon didn't think it was proportional and thus it was an escalation. Furthermore, it seems we are really the only ones saying that the Soleimani killing was in response to the embassy attack anyway. Trump now seems to be selling some bs about how imminent future attacks were really the reason, and his own Senators are calling him out about how no intelligence regarding a credible new threat against the Baghdad embassy or other embassies have been shown to them.

As for Trump's restraint, I don't argue that there is an undercurrent of anti-hawkishness, although my opinion is that it's totally by chance or related to some other corruption. I guess you don't care about the reasons why, but the fact that he has drawn down military presence at times does not gel with the fact that the guy filled his cabinet with generals, had Bolton as part of his cabinet in the first place, or that he's now fallen in love with the AUMF and thinks the War Powers Resolution is bogus. Further, let's all hope that whatever the reason was for the Soleimani killing, it wasn't this.


In regard to Soleimani's popularity, I called him Persian Tom Hanks because of Tom Hanks' popularity, not the likeness. The WSJ writes:

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Gen. Soleimani was widely popular among Iranians as Tehran’s regional power grew in the face of international pressure, and the man credited with defending Iran from Islamic State and other terrorist groups. Staying largely above the political fray, Gen. Soleimani was believed to be Iran’s most popular official, far more revered than the country’s moderate President Hassan Rouhani, according to recent polls by researchers at the University of Maryland.

Before his death, Gen. Soleimani was called a “living martyr of the revolution” by Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Following the news of the U.S. strike, Mr. Khamenei declared three days of national mourning for the commander’s death and warned that “hard revenge awaits criminals.”

Iran watchers say such state-led adulation fed the nationalistic fervor needed to support the Guards’ military forays in foreign countries.

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The UoM study the WSJ references where Soleimani enjoyed an 82% popularity rate:

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"Gallagher said many Iranians lost trust in the United States after pulling out of the nuclear deal and viewed Soleimani as their protector.

"He consistently polls better than anybody else in terms of overall favorability,” Gallagher said. “We saw when people are feeling under threat, then there'd be a little spike in his popularity.""

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I think you'll agree that describing Soleimani as a wildly popular, high-level government official is not an exaggeration, especially after seeing the stampedes after his death and the itchy trigger fingers on those Russian SAMs. Killing popular, high-level government officials is usually an overescalation with significant repercussions, and I hope we don't subject ourselves to near-miss cognitive bias vis a vis risk decisions just because we seem to have gotten away with it this time.
 
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All fair points.

I hope we don't subject ourselves to near-miss cognitive bias vis a vis risk decisions just because we seem to have gotten away with it this time.

And this point is especially well taken. I try to acknowledge and see through my own bias - which in this case I'll admit is heavily shaded by the last 15 years and several deployments to that region, where I've watched Iran get away with killing our people with impunity. Always through proxies and intermediaries, but Iran all along. Everyone knew it. Everyone just accepted it. I guess I view this action less as "escalation" and rather more as "long overdue" ...


Last thought for now - there's another assumption that's implicit in most of these discussions, and that is the notion that "escalation" itself is, by definition, always wrong. There come a point in most violent conflicts where trading "proportionate" responses just becomes an ineffective ritual prolonging a terrible status quo.

You cited reports of how Trump initially rejected the "extreme" option of hitting Soleimani. Instead, the allegedly hotheaded and impulsive Trump made a "proportionate" response with the limited airstrikes on the militia group. Obviously that didn't have the slightest deterrent or preventive effect because immediately afterward Iran directed the attack on our embassy. And the (reported) fact that Trump was fuming is ... what? Surprising? What's the right answer there? Another "proportionate" response? Followed by another embassy attack with an outcome like the 1979 embassy attack, carried out by the same players, which resulted in the Iran hostage crisis?

No. Good kill. If the embassy had been overrun, Trump's lack of "escalation" prior to that event, in light of Iran's series of escalations since last summer, would have been absolutely indefensible, and the media and Democrats and a whole lot of Republicans would have rightly challenged Trump's ineffective action. Indefensible especially given what happened in Benghazi.

Eyes wide open for my own bias.
 
I am not an expert in the matter, but he brought in some 5 million Iranian’s to Tehran for his funeral according to some reports. The pix of that square are undeniably packed.

I am wondering if the killing of him will bring Iran and Iraq closer together. certainly seems that Iran had a resurgence of nationalism- speculative on my part.
 
Iran admits that the airliner was downed by their missile, they thought it was a cruise missile.
 
Iran admits that the airliner was downed by their missile, they thought it was a cruise missile.

Yes. I just left a part of the world that is 80% muslim- good experience. Nothing bad to say, just totally different from us. Def. some major cultural differences.

Interesting how we are currently seen in the international news however. I am in a predominantly Buddhist part now... news channels still have a negative spin on the US. China news stations jumping on the wagon as well. Media manipulates peoples minds no doubt- powerful tool. I have heard some interesting arguments that I will try and get to once I get back State side.

I do find it Ironic that Iran (and Russia) first said the incident was ”impossible” and Iran said the missile theory was in fact just a “US/terrorist“ propaganda plot- Good try, but no dice. Now they completely back tracked and are partly blaming the incident on Iranian heightened alert due to the ”terrorists”- in doing so somewhat blaming the USA for their miscalculation. That is 2 Ukrainian airplanes down in recent history I believe.

I don’t think Iran could weasel out of that mess. Good move on them for fessing up. Hiding the obvious would have made Iran look terrible—although their reluctance to give up 2 black boxes was pretty obvious given the facts. The fact that a lot of the wreckage is missing is also pretty shady.
 
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It’s been interesting beeing out of the States when all this has been going down. Like a lot of issues in the world and life in general, the truth is never really 100% one sided and often lies somewhere in the middle.
 
I do find it Ironic that Iran (and Russia) first said the incident was ”impossible” and Iran said the missile theory was in fact just a “US/terrorist“ propaganda plot- Good try, but no dice. Now they completely back tracked and are partly blaming the incident on Iranian heightened alert due to the ”terrorists”- in doing so somewhat blaming the USA for their miscalculation. That is 2 Ukrainian airplanes down in recent history I believe.

The one airliner was a Malaysian airliner shot down over Ukraine. It was bad luck for Malaysian Airlines, two planes full of people both negligently lost.
 
Intentionally missing fails Occam's razor. Iran hasn't stated any claim of intentionally missing - though of course we have no reason to believe anything they say about anything. And from what I understand, they used mostly Qiam-1 missiles. Per my definitive source (Wikipedia) they have an accuracy of 500 m. The Al Asad air base is something like 5000 or 10000 acres. Some impacts were in fields and some hit buildings. The nature of random hits on an airfield is that some hit buildings and some don't ... I can't tell the difference between normal distribution of a missile with 500 m accuracy vs a couple of actual precision munitions. Maybe those weren't Qiam-1s.

I don't think they intentionally missed anything. I think they didn't want there to be any loss of life causing further escalation, hence the early notification of the attack.

The short range antiaircraft missile that hit the airliner is a different animal altogether. That clearly worked exactly as designed. Though it's hard to assess how useful it would be vs military aircraft, which unlike a passenger jet, aren't fat and slow with huge radar cross sections and no countermeasures and no maneuverability.
I agree with this assessment. Iran appears to have been quite serious about hitting the US bases, but their mistake was using Iranian-made weapons, which are, in general, copies of Russian or Chinese weaponry (occasionally older US-made stuff as well).

Their second mistake was that the mullahs believe their own propaganda. Iran has a habit of announcing some new wonder weapon, that either turns out to be a dolled-up copy of existing stuff, or faking photos/movies. Oddly, you never see those "weapons" again.

Agree even more so with the bolded. Russian weapons aren't exactly the best (just ask the Israelis), but are good enough against civvie targets.

As an aside, did the SPF disappear? This 7 page thread is prime SPF material. Why aren't y'all discussing sedatives and hypnotics?? :hardy:
 
And another update on the topic worth reading:
 
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