Some ideas

[Podfather]

I have been a proud member of this profession for 27 years. I am proud of where we have gotten to and even with some warts still exposed we are light years ahead of where we started when I left DPM school. I am proud to be a DPM! Our accomplishments can be summed up by simply walking into a hospital with well trained/ experienced DPMs on staff and see them with active staff privileges, admitting their own patients, doing H&Ps, and having full privileges. Some DPMs are chiefs of surgery and hold other leadership positions. Our graduates are being brought into the MD fold with job offers in multispecialty and orthopedic groups. Whether or not there is a saturation point isn't the issue but the mere fact this is occurring is huge compared to when an orthopod wouldn't even talk to us 25 years ago.

With these accomplishments we are now poised and required to ask the very important question: Where do we go from here? Parity talk is the buzz of the day and a DPM becoming a fully licensed physician a la the DO concept is one idea that many within the profession are working on. DPMs becoming MDs/DOs either while in podiatric medical school or residency is another. Although neither of these changes wouldn't affect the way most practice and reality says even with parity most would not be able to be proficient in 2 fields, it would help with public perception and laws, fees, and bylaws that use the term physician.

First, IMO the simpliest way to achieve parity sits right in front of our eyes. The majority of DPM schools are now within DO, MD schools. For those who are not mandate that they do it. Then, set a date where all schools offer a dual track degree. For those DPM students who maintain a certain GPA (they share the basic sciences with the DOs/MDs) and pass the USMLE 1 or COMLEX 1 after achieving the DPM they spend an additional year and obtain the DO or MD. The opposite could be made available to the MD/DO students who pass the APMLE 1 and they could obtain a DPM. Those DPMs who chose to pursue a FP residency yes would technically not be podiatrists anymore but would have a podiatry background. And for those MDs/DOs who matched say into a residency they would not be happy in could pursue a PMSR or choose a PMSR over a MD/DO residency initially. These schools have taken us in and our tuition money so having this requirement should be acceptable. Also it helps with the primary care shortage that is expected and with some DPMs entering MD/DO residencies helps with our current residency shortage.

Second, regardless of the method, while we attempt to achieve parity educationally we must address the issue that although individually many patients understand what a DPM is, in general most people do not. I am not blaming the APMA or anyone else but can say the term podiatrist regardless how much we want to believe otherwise means a 1000 things to a 1000 people. So an old idea has surfaced once again. We should change the degree to at least something the public may understand, PMD. Now I understand that this does not solve all of the problems but it does give the public a recognizable grouping. DMDs did it and so can we. It would also signal all of the advances we have made in the last 25 years. For those of you rolling your eyes (like I did many times in the past) we did it before for similar reasons when we went from the DSC to DPM.

Both of the above would IMO both increase and improve the applicant pool especially the former. The latter if brought forward IMO may give the naysayers a reason to return to the APMA and may help with public perception.

Too much coffee this AM.

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[DPMer]

I like your ideas doctor. But how about adding the diploma title DPS (Doctor of Podiatric Surgery)? The dentist is either a DMD (Doctor of Dental Medicine) or a DDS (Doctor of Dental Surgery). So the same should apply to the podiatry model: PMD (Doctor of Podiatric Medicine) or DPS (Doctor of Podiatric Surgery). Good idea? Or just leave it at PMD? (Was that coffee from Starbucks, WaWa, Dunkin Donuts, or McDonalds)?

 

[347932]

I like your ideas doctor. But how about adding the diploma title DPS (Doctor of Podiatric Surgery)? The dentist is either a DMD (Doctor of Dental Medicine) or a DDS (Doctor of Dental Surgery). So the same should apply to the podiatry model: PMD (Doctor of Podiatric Medicine) or DPS (Doctor of Podiatric Surgery). Good idea? Or just leave it at PMD? (Was that coffee from Starbucks, WaWa, Dunkin Donuts, or McDonalds)?

I really like this idea a lot!

Oh and if ain't Starbucks, fogetaboutit. There IS a difference and yes, I'm a coffee snob.

 

[Podfather]

I like your ideas doctor. But how about adding the diploma title DPS (Doctor of Podiatric Surgery)? The dentist is either a DMD (Doctor of Dental Medicine) or a DDS (Doctor of Dental Surgery). So the same should apply to the podiatry model: PMD (Doctor of Podiatric Medicine) or DPS (Doctor of Podiatric Surgery). Good idea? Or just leave it at PMD? (Was that coffee from Starbucks, WaWa, Dunkin Donuts, or McDonalds)?

The main reason would be for public understanding/perception and branding. The reasons are deeper it would give us the chance to explain why the change and highlight the advances we have made starting in podiatry school, continuing through residency, and practice. An honest direct and subliminal PR program. So I would stick with PMD.

Starbucks heck I can't afford that. Iam a gas station coffee guy. Now wine and food I can be a snob.

If you agree we could use someone to start the discussion at the APMA.

 

[javajava]

I too like all the ideas

public perception is heavily needed.. Some cases its as bad as public awareness lol.. I remember asking all my family about podiatry, no one knew what it was (We're canadians)

 

[Ferocity]

Good post. I support all of your ideas, especially public awareness, but I feel like the MD/DO residency idea is not realistic.

 

[Podfather]

Good post. I support all of your ideas, especially public awareness, but I feel like the MD/DO residency idea is not realistic.

Could you be more specific?

If someone graduates from a DO/MD school with a DPM/MD and has passed either the USMLE or COMLEX 1 and 2 they would be able to enter those profession's matches. There are a number of positions that normally go to the foreign MDs or go unmatched that may be available and I would argue a good DPM/MD candidate with good USMLEs would compete against any other MD graduate.

As for the MD or DO/DPM who entered medical school, wanted to add another degree (DPM), and who wanted a surgical program but was looking at a non surgical program at match may decide on a PMSR. I am a residency director and have had at least 10 licensed MDs over the years ask if they could apply to our residency. The CPME forbids that and for that and other reasons we couldn't have them apply. With both the MD and DPM and a residency in PMSR (that with time could include a medical internship perhaps?) they could practice podiatry with outstanding training as a MD/DPM. Would there be 100s applying I think not but I would venture in a few years there would several.

 

[Ferocity]

Could you be more specific?

If someone graduates from a DO/MD school with a DPM/MD and has passed either the USMLE or COMLEX 1 and 2 they would be able to enter those profession's matches. There are a number of positions that normally go to the foreign MDs or go unmatched that may be available and I would argue a good DPM/MD candidate with good USMLEs would compete against any other MD graduate.

As for the MD or DO/DPM who entered medical school, wanted to add another degree (DPM), and who wanted a surgical program but was looking at a non surgical program at match may decide on a PMSR. I am a residency director and have had at least 10 licensed MDs over the years ask if they could apply to our residency. The CPME forbids that and for that and other reasons we couldn't have them apply. With both the MD and DPM and a residency in PMSR (that with time could include a medical internship perhaps?) they could practice podiatry with outstanding training as a MD/DPM. Would there be 100s applying I think not but I would venture in a few years there would several.

Lets say that DPM students could enter MD residencies. What would happen to podiatric medicine as a whole? Would the number of podiatrists dwindle down because now a significant portion of podiatry students are avoiding a podiatric residency?

I am not opposed to slapping on a DPM/MD title - give them unlimited scope and equal parity. However, I feel that a podiatric medical student should only go into a podiatric residency to preserve the profession. Podiatry could see a negative impact as students use podiatric medical school as a back up and an avenue for an MD/DO residency, essentially completely avoiding podiatry after completing a non podiatric residency.

You don't think my prediction is a possibility?

 

[DPMer]

The main reason would be for public understanding/perception and branding. The reasons are deeper it would give us the chance to explain why the change and highlight the advances we have made starting in podiatry school, continuing through residency, and practice. An honest direct and subliminal PR program. So I would stick with PMD.

Starbucks heck I can't afford that. Iam a gas station coffee guy. Now wine and food I can be a snob.

If you agree we could use someone to start the discussion at the APMA.

Yes doctor. I think someone in APMA should start this topic. Even get CPME, COTH, and NBPME involved too.

 

[Podfather]

Lets say that DPM students could enter MD residencies. What would happen to podiatric medicine as a whole? Would the number of podiatrists dwindle down because now a significant portion of podiatry students are avoiding a podiatric residency?

I am not opposed to slapping on a DPM/MD title - give them unlimited scope and equal parity. However, I feel that a podiatric medical student should only go into a podiatric residency to preserve the profession. Podiatry could see a negative impact as students use podiatric medical school as a back up and an avenue for an MD/DO residency, essentially completely avoiding podiatry after completing a non podiatric residency.

You don't think my prediction is a possibility?

No it's a legitimate concern and one that I have argued previously. Yes we would lose some (or many) of the DPM/MDs to other specialties. One positive is that we would have MD/DOs in multiple specialties who also had a DPM degree and would know our training first hand. Also, remember only those who maintain a certain GPA and pass the USMLE would be permitted (and the number limited perhaps by the school) to do the extra year for the additional degree. Those who remain solely in the DPM track and some of the DPM/MDs who either couldn't match a specialty of their choosing or truly want to be a DPM would do PMSRs. To be blunt IMO we do have an issue with the rush to create residency positions and the risk of creating below average programs for the DPM grads (I know of a few new ones that IMO are poor). With less DPMs or MD/DPMs entering the residency hunt they would have access to proven quality PMSR programs.

A win-win.

 

[Podfather]

Yes doctor. I think someone in APMA should start this topic. Even get CPME, COTH, and NBPME involved too.

This is a shout out to Kidsfeet.

 

[that1guyfromFL]

I would be very interested to understand more about the actual process that would be involved in making a change from DPM to something like PMD.

Is it something the APMA HOD would vote on to get the ball rolling?

What are the legal implications and hurdles?

Kidsfeet? Podfather? PADPM? NatCH? Bueller? Bueller?

 

[Podfather]

I would be very interested to understand more about the actual process that would be involved in making a change from DPM to something like PMD.

Is it something the APMA HOD would vote on to get the ball rolling?

What are the legal implications and hurdles?

Kidsfeet? Podfather? PADPM? NatCH? Bueller? Bueller?

Good questions perhaps Kidsfeet can help. I believe the APMA through a resolution could mandate the CPME? who accredits the schools to investigate it. In the end the schools provide the degrees and probably have to approve it? Much like there are DDS and DMD granting schools. It also may be as easy as saying through the CPME and/or the schools ? that a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine may identify themselves as a DPM or PMD.

History regarding the DSC to DPM would be helpful.

 

[DPMer]

Good questions perhaps Kidsfeet can help. I believe the APMA through a resolution could mandate the CPME? who accredits the schools to investigate it. In the end the schools provide the degrees and probably have to approve it? Much like there are DDS and DMD granting schools. It also may be as easy as saying through the CPME and/or the schools ? that a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine may identify themselves as a DPM or PMD.

History regarding the DSC to DPM would be helpful.

History question, doctor: What did D.S.C. stand for? (Doctor of Surgical Chiropody???) Thanks for clarifying.

 

[doctazero]

My MD diploma reads: Doctor of Medicine, would I write DM? Does a Doctor of Philosophy append the title D Ph. in the US? No. So why, and I've oftten asked does the diploma that reads: Doctor of Podiatric Medicne need to be written out as D P M, a largely unrecognized triplet, evocative of the old podiatry…whatsa D.P.M.? Many podiatrists in the US do not write out the DPM letters on their ads, business cards and such, rather Dr._________Podiatric Surgeon, or Podiatrist or Foot Specialist. Why? Because the public domain isn't hospitable to the small number of podiatrists-The fact that there have been few, if any DPMs represented in popular culture at all pretty much is testament to that. Fair enough? And now, why should this matter if you're going to be a podiatrist-you might as well accept what's awarded at the end of four years, right? Yes, but…podiatry as many have come to know it resonates as something which it is not, nor has been since the 80s and 90s. Podiatry, I have learned, has not only evolved, but changed to such an extent that it would be unrecognizable to those who graduated podiatry school in the 80s 90s and on into the 00s-So WHY NOT change the designation to reflect those changes. Changes I was made aware of through a number of sources, including this site, the almost uncensored area, and many many conversations with young podiatrists and educators. The diploma reads Podiatric Medicine, Doctor of-why not just write out the title, as Podfather so eloquently posted at the Management site PMD? It's a fantastic idea on several levels. First, what it will not do: Change the scope of practice for now. These things take time, and we've discussed them heatedly with plenty of bitter, harsh, and calumnous posts. I was in on that. Nasty nasty nasty, tit for tattery-way too much childish banter: Who are you? Why are you saying that? Did you take your psych meds today? And on and on. I've posted here in the past under a few names, taken some heat from the board boss and agreed that I'd only use the login handle as Docta Zero. I used the login names Hoaxbuster, Dropatoer2, DPM2MD and that's it. NO other handles. I've had hundreds, maybe thousands of posts using the handle Caddypod as ever was, and that's how I'm widely known. I think that the interchange between me and Podfather on that `other site' have been fluent, and productive and some of the realities of podiatry today need recognition on a larger scale. Some of the things that I am aware of are the exclusion of podiatry from the the general medical mainstream in real life. I can already sense the rebuttals and rebukes, but try this, before you jump on my words, try logging into one of the MD/DO only sites with a DPM degree-you know the sites they leave a blank space for other. So far, podiatry, the DPM is `other'. That `otherness' carries over into the larger population and if you're in practice, your own practice you know what I mean. If you're a student or resident and you're vying for a choice job at an orthopedic group, you'll largely be sheltered from that universe of discrimination because DPMs ARE in some parts of the known medical universe as an integral part of the healtcare team. In the world, as in the larger corporate world, the lettters DPM don't hold much muster for a headhunter-not for a job outside of clinical podaitry. Lateral moves are restricted by degree, and the DPM is a big question mark. In an interview, expolaining what a DPM is, pretty much overtakes the interview and that's goodbye charlie. You can argue this all you'd like, but please do so amongst yourselves. What I do know? Suffice to say, is within the known universe where perception is reality, and the perception of a DPM degree will NOT bode well in that world. So we've just passed the summer of assesment: Will they CMA and COA convert podiatry schools to medical schools? And the debate raged on here (maybe rage is little strong of a word) but there was, a lot of angst, anger, and hostility. The result was that in order for DPMs to increase their scope of practice they would have to take and pass the USMLE tests, do the core clinical clerkships and graduate to an MD degree (DO) and then a graduate can be a candidate. Then the issue as to why the IMG (international medical graduates had residency slots came up) and why they got defference with respect to seats at PGY-1 seats-answer: They had MD or equivalent degrees. Some of you may find this post tedious and repititous, if so, you can just stop reading. If not, stick around: Why would a podiatrist who's going to podiatry school want more? Well, because the scopes of practice are divergent and each state different, and then the arguemnts sprang up about rearfoot versus forefoot certification came up with the nifty rebuttal that dentists don't have incisor versus molar boards. And then there those whov'e put the dental pardaigm into the mix-and on and on. So as of today there is no working model, to advance the scope and there are some people among us, not me, but someone you all respect who works tirelessly toward those ends, and I'm certain will some day achieve-True Parity-just not right now.

The question that's come up more often than not is the diminishing number of dues paying DPMs to the APMA. Look, there are only 10K DPMs - that means those few dollars have to be stretched pretty far. Lobbyists to ensure participation in different payor programs, scope of practice scuffles, and all sorts of things including but not limited to advertising and marketing of podiatry itself for potential applicants to populate the schools. Increasing the GPA and MCAT scores of the matriculating podiatry students. A lot of things that a small profession needs to be on top of because without the benefactors vis-a-vis alumni and contributors, the schools have a tougher time staying open.

Wouldn't an influx of capital from donors, alumni, and an icreased number of applicants do some good things for the profession?

If you think I'm full of crap and your being jerked around-stop reading now.

I guess you didn't stop. Good.

The idea of reflecting the changes in podiatry, its advancement akin to the changes done in the last century D.S.C. > D.P. > D.P.M. is not a new idea - we can not speak to the changes done in dentistry because podiatry isn't dentistry it's podiatry your liceneses will be subject to discipline by the podiatric board NOT a dental board. So, changing the way D.P.M. degree is displayed IS A GOOD THING- and that REBRANDING of podiatry will, I verily believe result in an influx of capital in these crummy economic times.

So give it some thought, and if you agree that your education, training and experience should be rewarded by rebranding via penning PMD after your names, we've all left this page a little elevated. If not, eh-I can be found at the uncensored area. I have used the login handle as Caddypod as ever was, over there. As I've said here I am only permitted to be Docta Zero-here. And that's the deal. We should all give the props to Podfater and the work he's doen for podiatry.

 

[doctazero]

I like your ideas doctor. But how about adding the diploma title DPS (Doctor of Podiatric Surgery)? The dentist is either a DMD (Doctor of Dental Medicine) or a DDS (Doctor of Dental Surgery). So the same should apply to the podiatry model: PMD (Doctor of Podiatric Medicine) or DPS (Doctor of Podiatric Surgery). Good idea? Or just leave it at PMD? (Was that coffee from Starbucks, WaWa, Dunkin Donuts, or McDonalds)?

That was done in the late 70s with the MS. DPS in not already existing within the document you will receive at graduation. Doctor of Podaitric Medicine. Semantically this is covered elsewhere as in Ph D, or M D. The title is not Philosophy Doctor, or PD or DM respectively.

 

[Podfather]

History question, doctor: What did D.S.C. stand for? (Doctor of Surgical Chiropody???) Thanks for clarifying.

Yes

 

[347932]

Ultimately, anything related to a degree change would have to go through the CPME first and foremost.

They are the ones that mandate and approve the curriculum on the schools as well as the curriculum in our residencies, and can initiate that kind of name change.

If we are talking about a degree change to something other than an MD/DO that can be something done internally within ourselves and probably would start with the APMA getting together a poll that is distributed to members asking what their opinions are about said change. Much like the ABPS just did with changing their name the American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery (did that ever go through anyway??).

So the APMA would poll all it's members to see if there was a general concensus and then gather the data to see if this was something that the profession wants/needs. Once this data was gathered it would probably go before the executive board to consider a resolution to put before the CPME to see how simple/complicated it would be make happen.

I can't imagine something like this would be that difficult to administer. Once the decision was made to move forward, the CPME would mandate a change within the schools for a degree name change and voila.

Of course I'm simplifying things, but that's the meat and potatoes of it. The real question is do we even need another degree other than one indicating that we are surgeons? I really like this idea because it will unify us and force one board and one college rather than the mess we're in right now.

Believe it or not, I am past the point in my politics to make much of a difference in this regard. Podfather understands what I mean. This is the job of the young blood tbh. These things take YEARS to make happen. so the things I started working on ten years are only now starting to really take focus. I'm still working on all the other stuff!!! ONe can only do so much!! Help!!!

 

[darazon]

I'm kinda on the fence about a name change to the degree. Personally, I like DPM, but I do understand the general lack of awareness in the public about what a DPM is. Most people I talk to do know what a podiatrist is, and a lot actually do know what we do -more or less. However, the majority of the ones I've talked to have assumed that a podiatrist is just a sub-specialty of MD.

DOs have the same issue. Speaking with the DO students/residents/attendings in the hospitals I do rotations on, they say the same thing. That the general public does not know what a DO is, they just know they go to their family doctor unaware that they are a DO.

As for the DPM/DO dual degree, I think it is a great idea. I am hoping that the exact program will be available to me before I graduate from Western. The DPM and DO faculty at Western are working on it I've been told numerous times. 5 years to obtain your DPM/DO, 1 year as a DO intern, and a 3 year DPM residency all with successful passing of the APMLE and COMLEX/USMLE. Who knows if it will come to pass or not though.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

I like your ideas doctor. But how about adding the diploma title DPS (Doctor of Podiatric Surgery)? The dentist is either a DMD (Doctor of Dental Medicine) or a DDS (Doctor of Dental Surgery). So the same should apply to the podiatry model: PMD (Doctor of Podiatric Medicine) or DPS (Doctor of Podiatric Surgery). Good idea? Or just leave it at PMD? (Was that coffee from Starbucks, WaWa, Dunkin Donuts, or McDonalds)?

I don't think offering two titles accomplishes anything. The DDS and DMD degrees are literally the exact same thing. Their education models aren't different, one doesn't just specialize in surgery, they are literally the same. I think adding ANOTHER three letters to an already not-well-known degree title is only asking for less recognition.

 

[Podfather]

I don't think offering two titles accomplishes anything. The DDS and DMD degrees are literally the exact same thing. Their education models aren't different, one doesn't just specialize in surgery, they are literally the same. I think adding ANOTHER three letters to an already not-well-known degree title is only asking for less recognition.

Well two things. First of all if the degree changed even existing DPMs would be PMDs so there would be only one degree. As far as the dental degrees apples and oranges. Everyone knows what a dentist does and what their subspecialties do. I would argue some know what our training and education is, many believe we are MDs, and many think we are chiropodists. Even with my referral base, some MDs send a lot of ingrown nails and heel pain and then when they get a fracture send it to ortho. When I talk to them they didn't know that I did fracture surgery and only did bunions. My fault but even some MDs really do not know completely what we do.

 

[zane870]

Well two things. First of all if the degree changed even existing DPMs would be PMDs so there would be only one degree. As far as the dental degrees apples and oranges. Everyone knows what a dentist does and what their subspecialties do. I would argue some know what our training and education is, many believe we are MDs, and many think we are chiropodists. Even with my referral base, some MDs send a lot of ingrown nails and heel pain and then when they get a fracture send it to ortho. When I talk to them they didn't know that I did fracture surgery and only did bunions. My fault but even some MDs really do not know completely what we do.

Very true. When I went to get my pre-pod school physical, I told my PCP why I was there and he started asking me all about the education and training. He regularly sends patients to podiatrists (he referred my sister to one just a few weeks prior) but really didn't know what all they do.

When I was working in a radiology department one of the interventional docs heard I was heading to pod school. He says- no lie- "podiatry school huh; is that sort of like being a chiropractor"? I just chuckled and said "no" and gave him a break down of the education and training.

 

[zane870]

...

 

[Jamesmadison14]

Second, regardless of the method, while we attempt to achieve parity educationally we must address the issue that although individually many patients understand what a DPM is, in general most people do not. I am not blaming the APMA or anyone else but can say the term podiatrist regardless how much we want to believe otherwise means a 1000 things to a 1000 people. So an old idea has surfaced once again. We should change the degree to at least something the public may understand, PMD. Now I understand that this does not solve all of the problems but it does give the public a recognizable grouping. DMDs did it and so can we. It would also signal all of the advances we have made in the last 25 years. For those of you rolling your eyes (like I did many times in the past) we did it before for similar reasons when we went from the DSC to DPM.

That's just plain silly. DMD (Dentariae Medicinae Doctorae) came about because Harvard opened up a dental school and only awarded degrees in Latin, not because a group of insecure DDS's (non-Latin Doctor of Dental Surgery) wanted to be thought of as MD's. I really hope you were kidding with that (I haven't read through the rest of the posts).

Large scale PR in regards to our current DPM degree is warranted, not changing it to your preposterous suggestion.

 

[javajava]

Changing the degree would indeed be much needed Large Scale PR.

 

[Jamesmadison14]

My MD diploma reads: Doctor of Medicine, would I write DM? Does a Doctor of Philosophy append the title D Ph. in the US? No. So why, and I've oftten asked does the diploma that reads: Doctor of Podiatric Medicne need to be written out as D P M, a largely unrecognized triplet, evocative of the old podiatry…whatsa D.P.M.?

So give it some thought, and if you agree that your education, training and experience should be rewarded by rebranding via penning PMD after your names, we've all left this page a little elevated.

Again, an M.D. doesn't stand for the Anglicized "Doctor of Medicine" but instead the Latin Medicinae Doctorae/Medicinae Doctor. I can't imagine any M.D. physician in the country not knowing that. Same thing with Ph.D. Same thing with D.M.D. Same thing with O.D. (Oculus Doctor)

D.O., D.D.S., D.P.M., etc are 'Doctor of _______________'. It would be in error, thus, that Doctor of Podiatric Medicine be written PMD unless you changed it to Pedistriae Medicinae Doctorae, which is crack pot-ish.

 

[Jamesmadison14]

Changing the degree would indeed be much needed Large Scale PR.

Sure, PR telling the general public that there are a ton of insecure podiatrists who want the phrase M.D. attached to their person no matter how absurd it is. We already have a (not as unknown as is currently being thought of) degree, we'd be better off dealing with educating the public on the extensive training of a DPM instead of making-up a sham degree.

 

[347932]

Sure, PR telling the general public that there are a ton of insecure podiatrists who want the phrase M.D. attached to their person no matter how absurd it is. We already have a (not as unknown as is currently being thought of) degree, we'd be better off dealing with educating the public on the extensive training of a DPM instead of making-up a sham degree.

Regardless of what the degree is called, our training is the same, so why not consider a degree name that may be a little more palatable? Kind of like the switch from Chiropody to Podiatric Medicine and Surgery. Something that may describe what we do a little better.

 

[Jamesmadison14]

Regardless of what the degree is called, our training is the same, so why not consider a degree name that may be a little more palatable? Kind of like the switch from Chiropody to Podiatric Medicine and Surgery. Something that may describe what we do a little better.

How does 'D.P.M./Doctor of Podiatric Medicine' NOT describe what we do?? How is D.P.M. not palatable? Are D.D.S., D.C., D.O., D.S.W., etc etc palatable?

 

[Podfather]

Sure, PR telling the general public that there are a ton of insecure podiatrists who want the phrase M.D. attached to their person no matter how absurd it is. We already have a (not as unknown as is currently being thought of) degree, we'd be better off dealing with educating the public on the extensive training of a DPM instead of making-up a sham degree.

Look I am fine and have done well with the DPM and expect regardless of dual tracks offerred for dual degrees or a degree change I will most likely not see or benefit from them. Sham is not the reason and I would suggest if we are not concerned with recognition we would still be DSCs. I am throwing out ideas for the next generation. If you would have asked a DPM from the late 70s if DPMs would all be doing 3 year residencies, admitting their own patients, doing H&Ps, serve as a chief of surgery, they would have told you you are crazy. The PMD helps with those who want parity through the current pod ed process. If through changes in education and USMLEs we become the third group of "physicians" beside MDs and DOs a PMD will help with our branding.

If you want the status quo so be it. I'll be long gone 25 years from now and hope someone proposes and debates where we went and set goals in 2012. BTW dual degrees should be an option for any student sitting "side by side" as I hear from the newbies for all of their basic sciences and maintaining a certain GPA and passing COMLEX or USMLE. If we can dual in their MS and PhD programs then there should be an opportunity for the DO/MD.

 

[Podfather]

Oh and BTW you do not know me but anyone who does would never use the word "insecure" when describing me.

 

[Traum]

The evolution and perhaps, de-evolution of medicine is inevitable. Currently, DPMs are classified as "physicians" in some states and we do practice allopathic medicine of the ankle and foot. The time to evolve is now. DPod, DSC, DP, DPM----PMD. We are ACLS certified, push meds, run codes, transfuse, in-house pt management, yet the question remains ad nauseum whatsa DPM?

Ask 100 folks on the street and very few would have a clue what DPM means, training, stands for, education, etc... Let's be realistic, and not delusional into thinking everyone knows what the DPM does and what it represents. Some are put with DPTs as most again, have no clue what DPM is/does/etc....

Put the MD in ankle and foot medicine. It is long overdue. DMDs and DDS are both dentists and well recognized and get large numbers compared to podiatry for well qualified applicants.

Apply for a job outside of clinical podiatry and the raised eyebrows, over-explaning, glazed looks, lack of tick boxes with DPM, and having to ad nauseum explain what a DPM is, means, does, etc...gets old and is wrong for a profession that has evolved and progress forward in such a brief time.


Are MDs DAMs--doctors of allopathic medicine? Read the podiatry diploma Doctor of Podiatric Medicine, correctly should be PMD, Or for med doctors, MD. Also, IMGS from third world countries w/o undergrads have MDs. they are instantly recognized due to degree and have many more doors opened b/c of the MD. Compare/contrast with DPMs.

All the visions, meetings, agendas, minutes, gavels, and sugar plum dancing--the medical train has left the station, and podiatry is in a puddle jumper holding pattern awaiting its' next move. PMD.

Can you wait another 10, 15, 25+ years for "change" to PMD, or perhaps more meetings/calls to order/visions?

Perhaps, yes, or perhaps, no. However, it is a shame after spending 250K+ in student loans, time, effort, 3 years post clinical training, to be given the raised eyebrow, and whatsa DPM for the upteeth time. Get MD in there as you are practicing ALLOPATHIC medicine (DMDs--dentists even got one). Maybe that would strengthen the applicant pool too. Getting a portable and potable degree is a way to attract higher caliber students to a profession to well qualified applicants. Rather than getting low GPAs, low MCATs, no name undergrads, and whadda my chances type questions--embarrassing. PMD, would be a giant step in the right direction towards parity and real tangible change that one can see.

The time to act is NOW. PMD. Thank you.

 

[Jamesmadison14]

The PMD helps with those who want parity through the current pod ed process. If through changes in education and USMLEs we become the third group of "physicians" beside MDs and DOs a PMD will help with our branding.

BTW dual degrees should be an option for any student sitting "side by side" as I hear from the newbies for all of their basic sciences and maintaining a certain GPA and passing COMLEX or USMLE. If we can dual in their MS and PhD programs then there should be an opportunity for the DO/MD.

1. How do you figure that? change from an (at least phonetically correct) already existing Doctor of Podiatric Medicine (which some people dont know about) to a PMD (which no one will know about)? You gave the example of DMD's doing it. They didnt. A large amount of people, I'd bet to say, don't know what an Oculus Doctor (O.D.) is.. they keep it for tradition and then increase the publics understanding of their increased knowledge and skills- different disciplines and professions don't change their professional degrees every time they advanced in skill.

2. I have no problem with your DPM/MD schema- something akin to oral and maxillofacial surgeons; you graduate with a DPM and do 3yr residency and still be a DPM ,or, you graduate with a DPM and do a 5-6yr residency that included the proper 3rd/4th year medical school clinicals and be a DPM/MD. But I would have a problem with just PMD or PMD/MD or PMD/DO because it makes it seem like its coming from insecurity.

 

[Jamesmadison14]

1. Put the MD in ankle and foot medicine. It is long overdue. DMDs and DDS are both dentists and well recognized and get large numbers compared to podiatry for well qualified applicants.

Get MD in there as you are practicing ALLOPATHIC medicine (DMDs--dentists even got one).

2. Are MDs DAMs--doctors of allopathic medicine? Read the podiatry diploma Doctor of Podiatric Medicine, correctly should be PMD, Or for med doctors, MD.

PMD, would be a giant step in the right direction towards parity and real tangible change that one can see.

The time to act is NOW. PMD. Thank you.

1. That is NOT why there is a DMD along with a DDS- see my above post

2. There are English and Latin degree names. An MD is latin and is Medicinae Doctorae, a DPM is English and is Doctor of Podiatric Medicine.

 

[ldsrmdude]

Lowly student chiming in here. I have to be honest, I really don't see what rearranging the letters in our title gets us? If the goal is parity with MD, our title will still be different (PMD). I'm more a believer in the "What's in a name? A rose by any other name..." side of it. I don't claim to have any of the experience that rivals what the doctors out in practice have, so maybe I am just naive and have been shielded from most of the discrimination that is because of the arrangement of the letters in our degree. In my mind it's either go for true parity and be MD's or stick with DPM and don't add any more to the confusion that our degree creates as it is. Just my opinion.

I do really like the dual degree track option. I would have seriously considered it had it been offered for me. It is something that I asked about, and was told it was something that had been considered, but nothing had really been done with it yet.

 

[Podfather]

1. How do you figure that? change from an (at least phonetically correct) already existing Doctor of Podiatric Medicine (which some people dont know about) to a PMD (which no one will know about)? You gave the example of DMD's doing it. They didnt. A large amount of people, I'd bet to say, don't know what an Oculus Doctor (O.D.) is.. they keep it for tradition and then increase the publics understanding of their increased knowledge and skills- different disciplines and professions don't change their professional degrees every time they advanced in skill.

2. I have no problem with your DPM/MD schema- something akin to oral and maxillofacial surgeons; you graduate with a DPM and do 3yr residency and still be a DPM ,or, you graduate with a DPM and do a 5-6yr residency that included the proper 3rd/4th year medical school clinicals and be a DPM/MD. But I would have a problem with just PMD or PMD/MD or PMD/DO because it makes it seem like its coming from insecurity.

Ok I will put you down as a No for PMD and a yes for dual track got it.

Now I think that something this profession needs to do (I am not blaming the APMA or anyone we are just a small rapidly evolving profession) is figure out a way to brand us. DPM or PMD whatever. You come up with the idea and I'm all for it. Like it or not with all of our advances, mandating 3 year residencies, etc. people will give you conflicting answers as to who we are. Not insecurity just the truth. The DDS and ODs do not have this issue. Purely because with the exception of some recent theurapeutic work, ODs are primarily an eye doctor for the non-invasive treatment of vision problems . Dentists, well everyone knows what they do and they were smart enough to brand their subspecialties. Maxillofacial surgeons are dentists but are rarely called that as the orthodontists and so on are branded We are all over the place. I have touted for years the dental model for podiatry (read my posts)but it is not going to happen.

Once again no on PMD for you but I would suggest a poll of the profession may surprise you. I offered this idea for discussion and I am pleased to see both positive and negative. That is how new ideas are developed

 

[dtrack22]

Lowly student chiming in here. I have to be honest, I really don't see what rearranging the letters in our title gets us? If the goal is parity with MD, our title will still be different (PMD). I'm more a believer in the "What's in a name? A rose by any other name..." side of it.

Agreed. I really don't understand what changing initials accomplishes? DO's didn't become DOMD's to appease the allopathic God's. They simply busted their butts to earn the respect of the medical community and treated patients the right way, earning the public's respect. Don't get why we can't do the same with DPM behind our names? I mean, this is the first year that residency programs are all 3 years...we aren't just a "young" profession (in terms of current training and scope) we are "newborns".

I do really like the dual degree track option

Agreed again. If the PMD goes hand in hand with the dual degree then ok. That's the only reason a degree change makes sense to me personally.

 

[Podfather]

Agreed. I really don't understand what changing initials accomplishes? DO's didn't become DOMD's to appease the allopathic God's. They simply busted their butts to earn the respect of the medical community and treated patients the right way, earning the public's respect. Don't get why we can't do the same with DPM behind our names? I mean, this is the first year that residency programs are all 3 years...we aren't just a "young" profession (in terms of current training and scope) we are "newborns".



Agreed again. If the PMD goes hand in hand with the dual degree then ok. That's the only reason a degree change makes sense to me personally.

Maybe GimliSonofGloin was correct LOL. Just kidding.

 

[hematosis]

Yes for PMD (it can't hurt)

Yes for combined degree.

Thanks.

 

[javajava]

This post should have came with a poll.. Im really curious as to what the majority would be. Whatever it is degree change I am all for it

 

[air bud]

I don't know how much a poll here would accomplish, too many people with too little perspective. As far as the PMD, I am unsure where I stand. As far as the Dual degree, thanks but not thanks, personally not for me as I went to Pod school for a reason.

 

[Podfather]

I don't know how much a poll here would accomplish, too many people with too little perspective. As far as the PMD, I am unsure where I stand. As far as the Dual degree, thanks but not thanks, personally not for me as I went to Pod school for a reason.

I hear you and so did I. I was accepted to both MD and DO school and chose Podiatry. If a dual track existed I may have considered it. I mean an extra year to add sme diversity in future employment options may have made sense.

Going forward, I believe with the high costs of education and the uncertainty of healthcare, smart, hard working students who want the dual degrees should atleast have the option. I sometimes feel the DO and MD schools love having the DPM schools for cost sharing and other fiscal reasons but by not offering the option for the DO/MD and only MS or PhD it shows we are separate and not equal. With the primary care shortages ahead it would make sense and truly demonstrate parity. It's much simpler than re-inventing the wheel and would be optional so students who just want the DPM can stay in one track.

 

[air bud]

What about the aspect of losing smart, talented pod students to other non- podiatric residencies/specialties? The problem right now is not too many smart, talented students, so why risk it? Sure, you can counter that with "maybe their heart wasn't in podiatry to begin with." Thoughts? Also, why are some of these ACGME residencies going to allow more students to enter their match? Aren't there already concerns over all of these new DO schools opening, on top of the IMG thing? I do agree with some of your thoughts about DO programs saying "hey, thanks for basically subsidizing some of our costs."

 

[Podfather]

What about the aspect of losing smart, talented pod students to other non- podiatric residencies/specialties? The problem right now is not too many smart, talented students, so why risk it? Sure, you can counter that with "maybe their heart wasn't in podiatry to begin with." Thoughts? Also, why are some of these ACGME residencies going to allow more students to enter their match? Aren't there already concerns over all of these new DO schools opening, on top of the IMG thing? I do agree with some of your thoughts about DO programs saying "hey, thanks for basically subsidizing some of our costs."

Yes I believe we will lose some to other specialties. But the interesting thing is now we would have FPs (I think it will be hard for a DPM/DO to get the competitive residencies) who may treat some minor foot problems but would have a podiatry degree and history. Perhaps they may refer to DPMs and help with political issues that arise?

Also like it or not we get applicants who were unsuccessful in gaining acceptance to medical school. They will now have another route which grants them 2 degrees and many options post graduate. Our applicant profile will rise and I believe applicant pool. Some will pursue a PMSR vs a primary care residency and all will be DPMs. Some in name only, others part time, and some full time.

 

[Podfather]

One added benefit is we would have DPM students allowed to sit for COMLEX and USMLE after 2 years of essentially DPM school. When they pass, it will say something about our education that may quiet some of our detractors.

 

[air bud]

One added benefit is we would have DPM students allowed to sit for COMLEX and USMLE after 2 years of essentially DPM school. When they pass, it will say something about our education that may quiet some of our detractors.

These are all good points you bring up. And you are right about the USMLE and COMLEX. My problem with schools proposing it is that it has always seemed that it would be mandatory, which is NOT in the best interest of the schools at this time with this applicant pool. I like the idea of restricting it to only certain students, and even then making it optional. Dangle that carrot out there and see who chases it.

 

[skiz knot]

Yes I believe we will lose some to other specialties. But the interesting thing is now we would have FPs (I think it will be hard for a DPM/DO to get the competitive residencies) who may treat some minor foot problems but would have a podiatry degree and history. Perhaps they may refer to DPMs and help with political issues that arise?

Also like it or not we get applicants who were unsuccessful in gaining acceptance to medical school. They will now have another route which grants them 2 degrees and many options post graduate. Our applicant profile will rise and I believe applicant pool. Some will pursue a PMSR vs a primary care residency and all will be DPMs. Some in name only, others part time, and some full time.

What would you think if MDs and DOs could obtain your residencies?

 

[Podfather]

What would you think if MDs and DOs could obtain your residencies?

If you read my above posts then you would see the dual track would go both ways. MD/DO students could sit for the APMLE 1 exam and after an additional year obtain a DPM to be a MD or DO/DPM vs a DPM/MD or DO. If they passed bothe APMLE 1 and 2 and had a DPM they would be able to apply for a PMSR.

 

[347932]

What would you think if MDs and DOs could obtain your residencies?

The best candidates should get the best residencies no?

 

[skiz knot]

If you read my above posts then you would see the dual track would go both ways. MD/DO students could sit for the APMLE 1 exam and after an additional year obtain a DPM to be a MD or DO/DPM vs a DPM/MD or DO. If they passed bothe APMLE 1 and 2 and had a DPM they would be able to apply for a PMSR.

Seems fairly reasonable. With the details worked out I could see such a move.

What would you think about converting podiatric schools into medical schools and making podiatry it's own subspecialty of medicine, with its own residency program?