Some real questions for EVERYBODY posting on the Caribbean forum...

[deleted480308]

Your post is more dramatic than it is factual or even objective.

If you ask ten other students from there, I guarantee you they would have a differing opinion. Why should I believe you?

It is a fact that if you ask 10 matriculating students 4 yrs later that 4 or 5 of them don’t have a residency

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[JohnWood15]

You would be, as you have been throughout this entire thread, woefully uninformed and incorrect. Everything @Mikkus and @Small Cell Carcinoma posted above is true.

That's subjective opinion in every sense of the definition. You would have to do better than that to construct an argument. I'd come right back at you and find two more people who would say otherwise and then we would go in a circle indefinitely.

Do you regret going to SGU or something?

 

[JohnWood15]

It is a fact that if you ask 10 matriculating students 4 yrs later that 4 or 5 of them don’t have a residency

Fact?

Which 10 are we talking about exactly? 10 who have a STEP1 failure? 10 who barely cleared STEP 1 or 2 or BOTH? 10 with no personality or soft skills? 10 who absolutely do not know how to apply broadly or realistically based on their own strengths and weaknesses as a residency candidate? What 10 are you talking about exactly? Be a little more specific. Your 10 might be different than my "10."

I'm only saying because if I were to ask 10 students with even a 220 STEP 1 and 2 who applied to IM or FM, four years later they would be practicing physicians.

 

[deleted245139]

It is a fact that if you ask 10 matriculating students 4 yrs later that 4 or 5 of them don’t have a residency

This ^ ... Is NOT a subjective opinion. And because of that it's reasonable to make potential applicants aware.

 

[deleted245139]

This thread is wild... If you want to go, go. Watching the responses to knowledgeable people on this subject is making it clear no amount of information contrary to your opinion is going to sway you. Do you

 

[deleted480308]

Fact?

Which 10 are we talking about exactly? 10 who have a STEP1 failure? 10 who barely cleared STEP 1 or 2 or BOTH? 10 with no personality or soft skills? 10 who absolutely do not know how to apply broadly or realistically based on their own strengths and weaknesses as a residency candidate? What 10 are you talking about exactly? Be a little more specific. Your 10 might be different than my "10."

I'm only saying because if I were to ask 10 students with even a 220 STEP 1 and 2 who applied to IM or FM, four years later they would be practicing physicians.

you can't be this incapable of understanding how statistics work, so I'm going to let you go as either a troll or someone beyond helping

good luck either way

 

[Mikkus]

Fact?

Which 10 are we talking about exactly? 10 who have a STEP1 failure? 10 who barely cleared STEP 1 or 2 or BOTH? 10 with no personality or soft skills? 10 who absolutely do not know how to apply broadly or realistically based on their own strengths and weaknesses as a residency candidate? What 10 are you talking about exactly? Be a little more specific. Your 10 might be different than my "10."

I'm only saying because if I were to ask 10 students with even a 220 STEP 1 and 2 who applied to IM or FM, four years later they would be practicing physicians.

It is a fact that if you ask 10 matriculating students 4 yrs later that 4 or 5 of them don’t have a residency

I completely agree with SB here, matriculating is very different from those who have their step scores already. Though to blindly say that 100% of those with passing steps will get a residency is not true, based on the fact I know a few in that category that still do not have placements.

 

[Stagg737]

This is a pretty bold statement to make so why don't we give you the floor here to explain yourself.

I'm saying the merger DOES NOT affect IMG's in any measurable way. You are saying otherwise. So explain yourself. And don't say it's a secret lol.

What region are you from anyway?

Currently in the midwest. Have medical experience in the Midwest, South, and minimal personal experience and many connections to the NE. There are regional differences, and 100% of PDs (around 10)/attendings I've talked to in the midwest and south have said the future is looking worse and worse for IMGs. NE was more pro-IMG, but also believed the merger would make things harder for "weaker applicants" (the implication was DOs and IMGs during that conversation).

There are plenty of administrative documents about the implementation available online which many people just haven't taken the time to read. I have. I've also spoken with an individual who is in the upper levels of COCA (our old dean) about the merger and potential effects. He was very blunt and open about why it happened (not to make the world a better place for DOs) and the likely outcomes based on his discussions in board meetings with COCA and ACGME.

Beyond that it's just common sense that it will impact everyone in the match (USMDs and IMGs included). How? Because you're increasing the applicant pool for the match (bye bye AOA match means all the DOs are entering ACGME) without creating enough ACGME positions to make up for it (pre-lim and TRI positions from AOA won't be transitioning to ACGME). No one is magically immune from this effect, not even USMDs. So while saying that the future of IMGs applying to US residencies is completely hopeless is likely just online doom and gloom, thinking there will be no measurable effect on any group (other than top-tier USMD candidates) is simply delusional. That is a viewpoint that was believed by every single PD I talked to, including 2 who graduated from Caribbean schools several decades ago.

If you want to continue to believe that SGU is magically going to become the powerhouse of the Caribbean and that it won't be affected by the merger, that's your choice. Just realize that many PDs in multiple geographic regions (including the NE, which is one of the most IMG-friendly regions) disagree with you, which are the only people who matter when it comes to medical students obtaining residency.

 

[JohnWood15]

you can't be this incapable of understanding how statistics work, so I'm going to let you go as either a troll or someone beyond helping

good luck either way

You're making a statement, I am asking for data. That's how it usually works right?

What you wrote was not "fact." It was opinion and it will be opinion until you can back it up with "data." You should know that.

900 residency appointments is "data." "We matched a great bunch of people" is opinion. ...similar to what you just typed.

I am not incapable of understanding statistics. Perhaps you are. In any case, I am open to any data you might have. That's what the thread is for anyway.

 

[deleted480308]

You're making a statement, I am asking for data. That's how it usually works right?

What you wrote was not "fact." It was opinion and it will be opinion until you can back it up with "data." You should know that.

900 residency appointments is "data." "We matched a great bunch of people" is opinion. ...similar to what you just typed.

I am not incapable of understanding statistics. Perhaps you are. In any case, I am open to any data you might have. That's what the thread is for anyway.

Good luck

 

[JohnWood15]

Currently in the midwest. Have medical experience in the Midwest, South, and minimal personal experience and many connections to the NE. There are regional differences, and 100% of PDs (around 10)/attendings I've talked to in the midwest and south have said the future is looking worse and worse for IMGs. NE was more pro-IMG, but also believed the merger would make things harder for "weaker applicants" (the implication was DOs and IMGs during that conversation).

There are plenty of administrative documents about the implementation available online which many people just haven't taken the time to read. I have. I've also spoken with an individual who is in the upper levels of COCA (our old dean) about the merger and potential effects. He was very blunt and open about why it happened (not to make the world a better place for DOs) and the likely outcomes based on his discussions in board meetings with COCA and ACGME.

Beyond that it's just common sense that it will impact everyone in the match (USMDs and IMGs included). How? Because you're increasing the applicant pool for the match (bye bye AOA match means all the DOs are entering ACGME) without creating enough ACGME positions to make up for it (pre-lim and TRI positions from AOA won't be transitioning to ACGME). No one is magically immune from this effect, not even USMDs. So while saying that the future of IMGs applying to US residencies is completely hopeless is likely just online doom and gloom, thinking there will be no measurable effect on any group (other than top-tier USMD candidates) is simply delusional. That is a viewpoint that was believed by every single PD I talked to, including 2 who graduated from Caribbean schools several decades ago.

If you want to continue to believe that SGU is magically going to become the powerhouse of the Caribbean and that it won't be affected by the merger, that's your choice. Just realize that many PDs in multiple geographic regions (including the NE, which is one of the most IMG-friendly regions) disagree with you, which are the only people who matter when it comes to medical students obtaining residency.

I appreciate the honesty but you're admitting you are from a geographical location that is known to NOT BE IMG friendly. In my earliest post, I discussed how regionalism is the key to matching from SGU because if you take a look at their clinical spots as well as where most everybody matches, you will clearly see trends and those trends mean a lot. SGU has a lock on certain programs in the Northeast where maybe all 8-10 PGY-1 spots are filled by nothing but SGU grads. Some of these programs actually rely on the SGU grads to take those spots because understandably nobody from a US school would want them...and I don't blame them.

I don't think anybody goes to SGU without understanding where the school matches it's students; at least the smart ones. So again this comes back to the merger because those regional spots I am referring to WILL STILL BE TAKEN BY SGU PEOPLE. All of a sudden, the best and brightest from the stateside schools will not be going to urban locations to become doctors. That, I would argue, is more common sense. The merger makes it tougher for DO students, if anything, because now they have to compete with the best allopathic students stateside. If it affects Caribbean IMG's, it will affect those who have, IMO, unrealistic expectations. But for the purpose of my argument, an FM or IM match is a successful match.

It doesn't matter what all PD's think. If there is a PD that does not want to consider a Caribbean IMG, that's perfectly fine and I'm sure that is the case at a lot of programs that are not IMG friendly. But coming back to what I was saying earlier, I wouldn't be betting anything on PD's who are in geographical locations that are IMG friendly. That's where I think you and I are going to differ in our argument. Advising an SGU student to apply to an IM or FM program in Nebraska is poor advice but I would also give the school the benefit of the doubt that they are not advising their students to do that.

And I 100% agree that the PD's opinion is probably the best opinion regarding this matter. On here, we heard from @aProgDirector and I suggest you refer to what they said earlier on. I have asked @gyngyn to chime in several times but I haven't gotten a response yet.

But I would also caution you that if you were to ask a PD from a school in the NY/NY/CT area, they would be more open-minded than the program you are in or the programs you are more familiar with.

And I never said SGU was a powerhouse of anything. I'm just saying it's a legit route.

 

[JohnWood15]

I completely agree with SB here, matriculating is very different from those who have their step scores already. Though to blindly say that 100% of those with passing steps will get a residency is not true, based on the fact I know a few in that category that still do not have placements.

Wouldn't @Skip Intro call that "anecdotal" evidence lol?

You need data to back up a claim like that. If I were to make a similar argument, I'm going to say that every person I know that went to SGU has matched. What would you say to that?

 

[Mikkus]

Wouldn't @Skip Intro call that "anecdotal" evidence lol?

You need data to back up a claim like that. If I were to make a similar argument, I'm going to say that every person I know that went to SGU has matched. What would you say to that?

I would say congratulations to them. The issue is the school will never publish the statistics of the failures, so there is no way to put them into number form. That is no reason to discredit or ignore them. The issue with your thought that 100% of people you know matched is unless you went to school at SGU you will never see the failures. Why would you? They have most likely changed careers, and hope to never hear or speak of SGU again. I hear people all the time tell me how great SGU is based on how many people they meet who succeed, the problem is you will only run into the successes in the medical field.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Well then, this argument is just gonna go in circles because SGU is smart enough to not publish certain data that could cause some people to second guess before applying. I'm guessing the data about the 900 that were matched or placed are posted in very big, bright, and shiny characters on their website.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[Stagg737]

But why should that concern you if you are well-prepared for that program? That's the idea here and the one most people choose to avoid discussing. If you're well-prepared for SGU, I'm saying you will succeed and become a practicing MD...or at least the odds will be incredibly in your favor. When you do figure out why we have 900 graduates from SGU in 2018 and why we will have 900 graduates in 2019, let me know what the explanation for that is and/or why someone should not explore this option.

Yes, 900 graduates placed into a program and that's great. As myself and many people, including aProgDirector, said before though there's not a good way to measure which people are "well-prepared" for SGU. Those who have the stats which are proven to show success on boards and in placement almost always get into (mostly) USMD or DO schools. When you have 900 people succeeding and 600 people not making it without a great way to determine which group someone will fall into, it's a bad idea to recommend that route. That's the explanation.

To be clear, there are people who I have said Carib is a valid option for in the past (those with records or IAs, but who are very strong academically, those who can walk away and return to another career, those who can afford to drop out without taking on debt). These were generally individuals who were either strong candidates but had some red flag which excluded them from US schools or individuals for which the negatives wouldn't be a big deal. Caribbean schools aren't the only schools I advise against attending either. There are several DO schools I would never recommend (including any new school in the past 2 years) and a couple USMD.

SGU has a lock on certain programs in the Northeast where maybe all 8-10 PGY-1 spots are filled by nothing but SGU grads. Some of these programs actually rely on the SGU grads to take those spots because understandably nobody from a US school would want them...and I don't blame them.

That's a pretty big problem though. Idk if you realize how horrible a truly malignant residency program can be, but residents quit or even kill themselves. I'm not saying it's only at Carib programs, but that being in a program that is malignant is far worse than some people realize. So while they may become physicians, it's one more thing that makes me question if the cost would be worth it.

It doesn't matter what all PD's think. If there is a PD that does not want to consider a Caribbean IMG, that's perfectly fine and I'm sure that is the case at a lot of programs that are not IMG friendly. But coming back to what I was saying earlier, I wouldn't be betting anything on PD's who are in geographical locations that are IMG friendly.

But I would also caution you that if you were to ask a PD from a school in the NY/NY/CT area

Here's the thing, one of the PDs I'm talking about is at a NY/MA/CT program that was historically very IMG friendly but is not anymore. The PGY-4 class was 100% IMG and the PGY-3 class was mostly IMG's with 50% being from SGU. The current intern class only has 1 IMG (from Ross) and the residents seemed to be under the impression that the program was phasing out IMGs. When I asked the PD about the resident's comments, they said they wouldn't be surprised if they "no longer needed" to interview IMGs at all in the next few years. I'll PM you the program and program website for actual data if you'd like, but I don't want to post on the public forums for the privacy of the PD/program.

Edit: Yes, there will be programs (particularly in the NE and Florida) which will remain very IMG friendly. However, even in those regions there are programs which historically took IMGs but are now moving away from that. The same thing may happen to DOs with former AOA programs in competitive fields (USMDs with stronger apps may take many of those positions), but that doesn't mean IMGs are somehow safe. Like I said, the merger is going to hit everyone, it's just a matter of how hard.

I have asked @gyngyn to chime in several times but I haven't gotten a response yet.

Again, she's been on here and has been liking comments with a specific tone/message. If you look at the comments she is liking, her opinion should become pretty obvious.

 

[JohnWood15]

I would say congratulations to them. The issue is the school will never publish the statistics of the failures, so there is no way to put them into number form. That is no reason to discredit or ignore them. The issue with your thought that 100% of people you know matched is unless you went to school at SGU you will never see the failures. Why would you? They have most likely changed careers, and hope to never hear or speak of SGU again. I hear people all the time tell me how great SGU is based on how many people they meet who succeed, the problem is you will only run into the successes in the medical field.

And I think that's where this thread is reaching a stalemate. I'm not focusing on failures, I'm focusing on success. Most of you are stuck on the failure aspect and I don't understand why really. When you do anything in your life, do you focus on succeeding or failing at the task? SGU apparently is succeeding and that's the purpose of the discussion.

SGU is for-profit, people will fail but if you have above-average academic credentials (which you should have if you want to attempt medical school) I think the odds of you flat out failing is very very low at SGU unless you either knowingly slack off somewhere or somebody deliberately fails you. I do not believe any of these schools deliberately fail anybody out. I do believe they keep raising the bar or even set the bar unreasonably high but I don't believe they target anyone specifically. I believe everybody gets their fair shot but some students are just stronger than others. I'm not debating whether it is ethical to accept someone with lower stats because I also feel that people should have already learned how to take calculated risks. It's 100% your responsibility to make sure you are doing everything they ask of you until you succeed in matching.

I also find it hard to believe someone can fail in the end and not have seen warning signs during either basic sciences or their performance on licensing exams. That's what you are also failing to point out. You don't get an A average in basic sciences and then fail STEP 1. If you did, then you had a bad day...a REALLY bad day. With straight A's at SGU, I would even go as far as saying I would expect to see 250 on STEP 1. You were there, you should agree to that. Straight A's might not be the norm

Are you suggesting that people who even get, let's say 230's on the first two STEP's have a 50/50 chance of matching? That would be the dumbest argument on the whole Caribbean forum then.

I've seen people here post (I'm assuming they are real students) that they have a 3.5 but a lower MCAT and you guys are all telling them "DON'T GO TO SGU!!!!!" "AVOID IT LIKE THE PLAGUE!!!!" "YOU'LL FAIL!!!!!" and I just don't agree with those generalizations based on the number of students who are succeeding in that program. All those successes are absolutely not 4.0 528 unicorns. A lot of those successes guaranteed have lower than a 3.5 and perhaps even lower MCAT scores than you would think.

 

[JohnWood15]

there's not a good way to measure which people are "well-prepared" for SGU.

It's not hard actually...if you have very good grades and even an average MCAT, I think anybody is capable of succeeding through SGU's program. Remember, medical school itself is not hard hence the much lower admission standards even 20 years ago. Medical school has this aura attached to it due to competition. There are obstacles you need to maneuver through that require you to be on your A-game and obviously better stats should equate to better discipline and motivation. Obviously, if your stats are higher, your odds are then higher. A 2.5 student with a 491 MCAT is NOT "well-prepared." ...But they can improve their stats over time if they wish to do so.

That's a pretty big problem though. Idk if you realize how horrible a truly malignant residency program can be, but residents quit or even kill themselves. I'm not saying it's only at Carib programs, but that being in a program that is malignant is far worse than some people realize. So while they may become physicians, it's one more thing that makes me question if the cost would be worth it.

Again, this is more dramatic than factual. I know US students and US-trained physicians who have committed suicide. I knew an NYU-educated cardiologist who slit his throat over a divorce. Does that mean we avoid all university programs too? There are some people out there, a lot actually, that will take an opportunity and run with it. Let's focus on that group and not the group that may or may not have it all together.

Here's the thing, one of the PDs I'm talking about is at a NY/MA/CT program that was historically very IMG friendly but is not anymore. The PGY-4 class was 100% IMG and the PGY-3 class was mostly IMG's with 50% being from SGU. The current intern class only has 1 IMG (from Ross) and the residents seemed to be under the impression that the program was phasing out IMGs. When I asked the PD about the resident's comments, they said they wouldn't be surprised if they "no longer needed" to interview IMGs at all in the next few years. I'll PM you the program and program website for actual data if you'd like, but I don't want to post on the public forums for the privacy of the PD/program.

Edit: Yes, there will be programs (particularly in the NE and Florida) which will remain very IMG friendly. However, even in those regions there are programs which historically took IMGs but are now moving away from that. The same thing may happen to DOs with former AOA programs in competitive fields (USMDs with stronger apps may take many of those positions), but that doesn't mean IMGs are somehow safe. Like I said, the merger is going to hit everyone, it's just a matter of how hard.

That's anecdotal and incredibly vague. Look, for every PD that essentially says "no" you will have 10 more that say "yes." I mean you're quoting me one example and I could give you 10 programs in a 50 mile radius that will continue to take an SGU student for the next decade.

If you're putting it all on the line going to SGU, I promise no student will be focusing on negativity. I feel there's way too much unwarranted negativity here and it needs to change so that we can have neutral arguments.

 

[Mikkus]

...




Are you suggesting that people who even get, let's say 230's on the first two STEP's have a 50/50 chance of matching? That would be the dumbest argument on the whole Caribbean forum then.
Of course not. But I am saying that no matter what your scores are you still have a chance of not matching. Small things like applying to the wrong programs, only interviewing at reaches, being selective in location, choosing a specialty without a backup, ect, can lead a person to not match, no matter what their scores are. This is true of any school, the difference is US schools offer mentors and coaching to ensure this does not happen. Hell, some schools even guarantee their students an IM or pre-lim spot if they don't match externally.

I've seen people here post (I'm assuming they are real students) that they have a 3.5 but a lower MCAT and you guys are all telling them "DON'T GO TO SGU!!!!!" "AVOID IT LIKE THE PLAGUE!!!!" "YOU'LL FAIL!!!!!" and I just don't agree with those generalizations based on the number of students who are succeeding in that program. All those successes are absolutely not 4.0 528 unicorns. A lot of those successes guaranteed have lower than a 3.5 and perhaps even lower MCAT scores than you would think.

A lot of the successes will have lower than a 3.5. A lot of failures will have the same. But if a person cannot show the dedication and drive to pass the MCAT and bring up their grades, I worry about their ability to pass on the island where there is a lot going against your success.
If a person has money to throw around and is OK with the potential of failing out, then sure, head to SGU. If they have another option, I recommend they take it. I still don't understand what you are fighting against with that statement.

 

[JohnWood15]

Well then, this argument is just gonna go in circles because SGU is smart enough to not publish certain data that could cause some people to second guess before applying. I'm guessing the data about the 900 that were matched or placed are posted in very big, bright, and shiny characters on their website.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

That's actually a good point you bring up but again, why would someone with razor sharp focus and the grades to back up their motivation focus on failures? Think of the MD as the biggest stage of all time, you have to give the best performance of your life when you're down in Grenada or any of those islands for that matter. Failure is not an option...if it's not an option, why focus on it? The successful students see this..."SGU had 900 successes, I'm going to be one of those."

 

[JohnWood15]

A lot of the successes will have lower than a 3.5. A lot of failures will have the same. But if a person cannot show the dedication and drive to pass the MCAT and bring up their grades, I worry about their ability to pass on the island where there is a lot going against your success.
If a person has money to throw around and is OK with the potential of failing out, then sure, head to SGU. If they have another option, I recommend they take it. I still don't understand what you are fighting against with that statement.

Well I'm happy you at least admit that. Now we're making progress.

Regarding the MCAT, my personal opinion is that it is a tool to level the applicant pool to US programs. If you had no MCAT, you would have 100000 applicants to medical school.

As far as correlation, you can have >90 percentile MCAT scorers who fail STEP1 and then you can have <50 percentile MCAT scorers score above the national average for STEP1. I've seen both scenarios.

You can organize MCAT data in more ways than you have time to look at and I don't think it will ever prove that your MCAT performance can predict medical school performance or STEP performance. The STEP is a completely different examination than the MCAT anyway.

That's my opinion though. I wouldn't argue with you if you want to say that the student with a 520 MCAT will do better in medical school.

And yeah, there is a lot working against you when you attend a school on the island but those who navigate those obstacles will succeed and it's not impossible.

 

[bedevilled ben]

That's subjective opinion in every sense of the definition. You would have to do better than that to construct an argument. I'd come right back at you and find two more people who would say otherwise and then we would go in a circle indefinitely.

Do you regret going to SGU or something?

I'm not under any obligation to correct your ignorance. My post was directed at future viewers. My thoughts about SGU and my experiences in the Caribbean are well-documented in my history.

 

[JohnWood15]

I'm not under any obligation to correct your ignorance. My post was directed at future viewers. My thoughts about SGU and my experiences in the Caribbean are well-documented in my history.

Keep it civil man. I've been civil from post #1.

That's nice to know about your history but this thread is not about YOUR history though.

 

[Stagg737]

It's not hard actually...if you have very good grades and even an average MCAT, I think anybody is capable of succeeding through SGU's program. Remember, medical school itself is not hard hence the much lower admission standards even 20 years ago. Medical school has this aura attached to it due to competition. There are obstacles you need to maneuver through that require you to be on your A-game and obviously better stats should equate to better discipline and motivation. Obviously, if your stats are higher, your odds are then higher. A 2.5 student with a 491 MCAT is NOT "well-prepared." ...But they can improve their stats over time if they wish to do so.

You can organize MCAT data in more ways than you have time to look at and I don't think it will ever prove that your MCAT performance can predict medical school performance or STEP performance. The STEP is a completely different examination than the MCAT anyway.

There are several studies which completely disagree with you. Ask some of the PDs like Goro for the studies as I don't have them readily available but have seen them (if I find them I'll link them). They do show that individuals with MCATs below a 24 (SGU's average is a 23 per their website) and cGPA's below a 3.25ish (SGU's average is 3.3 per their website, and sGPA is 3.2 per their website) are significantly more likely to fail Step 1 and not complete medical school. Those odds also get exponentially worse as those stats get worse, which is why many US schools have GPA and MCAT cutoffs well above those marks which are near SGU's averages.

Can people with lower scores than that succeed? Of course they can. Do the studies show that they are statistically much more likely to fail? Absolutely. It's probably why Carib schools like SGU and weaker DO and MD schools in the US have much higher failure rates than most US schools. Of course, the only way to truly know this is if schools like SGU publicly released the stats of the people who don't make it, which they never will because so many of their students have stats in the "high risk" range.

You're welcome to your opinion that having a weak MCAT or GPA doesn't mean much, but the data says you're wrong. You also seem to think that it's easy to just "improve their stats over time if they wish to do so". Most students are already giving it 100% and many struggle to get by (true of almost all med schools), so idk where you got the idea that they can just improve if only they'd try harder and focus more, but this is a very naive view of medical school in general.

Again, this is more dramatic than factual.

My point was simply that when you increase the likelihood of having to enter a malignant residency program, it's not a good thing. This generally isn't an issue for US grads, it is for IMGs (which you admitted to yourself in a previous post).

That's anecdotal and incredibly vague. Look, for every PD that essentially says "no" you will have 10 more that say "yes." I mean you're quoting me one example and I could give you 10 programs in a 50 mile radius that will continue to take an SGU student for the next decade.

The data disagrees though. In the 2016 PD survey, only 35% of PDs "frequently" interviewed IMGs. 51% rarely interviewed IMGs and 14% never interviewed them. So only 35% strongly considered IMGs. In 2014, 60% of PDs responded that they "typically offer interviews to IMGs", so just in those 2 years things got worse for IMGs according to PDs. 2018 survey isn't out yet, but I don't expect it to look better.

PD surveys: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

If you're putting it all on the line going to SGU, I promise no student will be focusing on negativity. I feel there's way too much unwarranted negativity here and it needs to change so that we can have neutral arguments.

Think of the MD as the biggest stage of all time, you have to give the best performance of your life when you're down in Grenada or any of those islands for that matter. Failure is not an option...if it's not an option, why focus on it? The successful students see this..."SGU had 900 successes, I'm going to be one of those."

The reality is that just wanting something really, really bad doesn't mean you'll be successful. Many of those who don't make it in medical school busted their butts and were doing everything they could to succeed (I know the people who failed out at my school did). That's not enough in med school though.

Are you suggesting that people who even get, let's say 230's on the first two STEP's have a 50/50 chance of matching? That would be the dumbest argument on the whole Caribbean forum then.

If you look at the data it's actually not as dumb as you think. In psych, a field that has historically been very IMG friendly, in 2016 only 57% of IMGs with Step 1 scores between 230-240 matched and only 43% of those with scores between 220-230 matched. So the odds in psych, one of the least competitive fields, are actually right at the 50/50 mark for IMGs with a 230 (overall match rate for IMGs in psych is ~30%). Look at any of the moderate or highly competitive fields, and odds are much worse than 50/50. If you only want to look at FM and IM, then sure, saying a 50/50 chance at matching with a 230 is incorrect, but that's also cherry-picking a very small range of data. Which is fair in this case, since you've stated that IMGs should realistically only be looking at those fields.

You're also assuming it's easy to get a 230 Step 1 score for anyone, which isn't true. SGU's mean hovers around 225, so not far off or "bad" by any means, but it certainly hurts more since IMG options are already far more limited than their US counterparts.

Data from the 2016 IMG Charting the Outcomes: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-IMGs-2016.pdf

Most of you are stuck on the failure aspect and I don't understand why really.

Because when a person is required to pay $50k+ per year just in tuition and 40% of people fail out leaving them with massive debt and nothing to show for it, then it's very, very relevant. You seem to be stuck on this idea that the failures don't matter and no one here understands why.

 

[JohnWood15]

There are several studies which completely disagree with you. Ask some of the PDs like Goro for the studies as I don't have them readily available but have seen them (if I find them I'll link them). They do show that individuals with MCATs below a 24 (SGU's average is a 23 per their website) and cGPA's below a 3.25ish (SGU's average is 3.3 per their website, and sGPA is 3.2 per their website) are significantly more likely to fail Step 1 and not complete medical school. Those odds also get exponentially worse as those stats get worse, which is why many US schools have GPA and MCAT cutoffs well above those marks which are near SGU's averages.

Can people with lower scores than that succeed? Of course they can. Do the studies show that they are statistically much more likely to fail? Absolutely. It's probably why Carib schools like SGU and weaker DO and MD schools in the US have much higher failure rates than most US schools. Of course, the only way to truly know this is if schools like SGU publicly released the stats of the people who don't make it, which they never will because so many of their students have stats in the "high risk" range.

You're welcome to your opinion that having a weak MCAT or GPA doesn't mean much, but the data says you're wrong. You also seem to think that it's easy to just "improve their stats over time if they wish to do so". Most students are already giving it 100% and many struggle to get by (true of almost all med schools), so idk where you got the idea that they can just improve if only they'd try harder and focus more, but this is a very naive view of medical school in general.

Two things with this...

1. I think you should re-read my last post. It clearly says I think a strong candidate should have a 3.5 GPA. You can improve a 3.0 to a 3.2 and then enter a masters program and I would think a 3.7 or greater in a masters program is a considerable marked improvement.

2. It looks like you're focusing on the whole entering class at SGU and then coming to a conclusion about the school when a good portion of that class does not make it through the program. I'm eliminating the weak part of the equation already. I have no doubt SGU is accepting some students with a sub 3.0 GPA and a single-digit percentile MCAT score. That's 50% SGU's fault and 50% the student's fault for being stupid. I'm eliminating that tier of student from this discussion. I'm not saying anyone can succeed if they apply to SGU. I'm saying the good students will succeed and they will match.

I would encourage you, if you travel to the Northeast, to visit some of these programs or tour the hospitals. SGU has some affiliations with respectable hospitals. Some of the other Caribbean schools might have associations with "malignant" programs but we're not talking about those schools. The idea that SGU students are destined for garbage programs is not accurate.

Regarding charting outcomes, I'm more focused on final outcomes at SGU. I could care less what data wants to predict. The data wanted everyone to believe that there would be no positions for IMG's last year. How accurate was that?

Also regarding the debt, if you have good grades and you know you are a legitimate candidate, I don't see why you should worry about failing out of their program. You'll be working very hard but if you complete each checkpoint, the money you spend is more of an investment.

If you have low scores, you are really taking a gamble and yes, the debt issue should worry that type of student...but that's not every student.

 

[Stagg737]

1. I think you should re-read my last post. It clearly says I think a strong candidate should have a 3.5 GPA. You can improve a 3.0 to a 3.2 and then enter a masters program and I would think a 3.7 or greater in a masters program is a considerable marked improvement.

That's fair, but those who have low 3.__ GPA, enter a master's, then get a 3.75+ will have a strong shot at US schools assuming the rest of their app is solid. I'm one of those people and I had no problems getting into med school in the US after grad school. Additionally, if someone is going to spend a year or more in grad school, get a strong GPA, then end up in the Carib, then they wasted their year of grad school as they could have gone Carib without it.

2. It looks like you're focusing on the whole entering class at SGU and then coming to a conclusion about the school when a good portion of that class does not make it through the program. I'm eliminating the weak part of the equation already. I have no doubt SGU is accepting some students with a sub 3.0 GPA and a single-digit percentile MCAT score. That's 50% SGU's fault and 50% the student's fault for being stupid. I'm eliminating that tier of student from this discussion. I'm not saying anyone can succeed if they apply to SGU. I'm saying the good students will succeed and they will match.

You're eliminating the weak part and everyone else here is trying to point out the fallacy of that argument. If you took everyone from a Harvard class and put them in an SGU class they'd probably all (or almost all) succeed anyway because they're the cream of the crop. The point is those super strong people aren't going to end up in the Caribbean anyway unless they have some massive red flag in their app (like academic dishonesty or a legal record).

The problem people are having with your arguments is you're not looking at a large percentage of their students, then you only care about the fact that they can get into residency and nothing else matters. So yea, if you want to say that the Carib is a valid option for students with UG GPAs of 3.5+ with MCAT scores of 510+ who are willing to limit themselves to IM or FM and likely settle for the average programs at best, then yes, SGU is a very valid route. However, that's not the profile of the typical Caribbean student and it limits their careers so severely that the question of "is it really worth it?" is completely valid.

I would encourage you, if you travel to the Northeast, to visit some of these programs or tour the hospitals. SGU has some affiliations with respectable hospitals.

Already did it on the residency interview trail. Yes they have some affiliations with respectable hospitals (they have an affiliation with one of the better hospitals in the city I went to med school), but so does almost every medical school in the country. So I don't really see how that's relevant.

The idea that SGU students are destined for garbage programs is not accurate.

Never said that they're destined for garbage programs, just said the chances of them ending up in one is higher (just like that chance is higher for DOs than USMDs).

Also regarding the debt, if you have good grades and you know you are a legitimate candidate, I don't see why you should worry about failing out of their program. You'll be working very hard but if you complete each checkpoint, the money you spend is more of an investment.

If you can sleep soundly when making a 200k+ investment that has zero guarantees of panning out and which carries a decent risk of losing everything, you're either much more naive or much more chill than I am (and I'm one of the more easy-going people in most of my friend groups). The bolded is also far from guaranteed and some schools like SGU put up extra barriers and checkpoints to succeed than others (like telling certain students they're not allowed to take Step 1 until they pass a certain score on practice exams). So yea, it's an investment, but not all investments are good ones.

 

[JohnWood15]

That's fair, but those who have low 3.__ GPA, enter a master's, then get a 3.75+ will have a strong shot at US schools assuming the rest of their app is solid. I'm one of those people and I had no problems getting into med school in the US after grad school. Additionally, if someone is going to spend a year or more in grad school, get a strong GPA, then end up in the Carib, then they wasted their year of grad school as they could have gone Carib without it.

I think a lot of you guys give false hopes to those who want to improve weak stats that they all have a chance at ultimately getting into a US school...as long as they don't go to the Caribbean and as long as they keep chugging away at improving their application. The truth is US admissions is so competitive that you have stellar students in the accepted batch and then you can put together another batch of equally stellar students who were rejected but had stellar stats. You could probably make a third batch as well. Where does the 3.3 505 MCAT person who want to improve their stats fall? The odds are they have a better chance at succeeding at SGU THAN THEY DO improving their app and getting into an MD program stateside where they would really need some luck to get a spot. I think you make that scenario a bit easier than it really is. Ask the PD's here about that. DO school, I'm not so sure about. I do know they did away with grade replacement.

If you took everyone from a Harvard class and put them in an SGU class they'd probably all (or almost all) succeed anyway because they're the cream of the crop.

You would actually be surprised. Graduating at the top of your class at Harvard is no guarantee you'll make it out of SGU. Are the odds in your favor though? Sure, why not it's Harvard.

Already did it on the residency interview trail. Yes they have some affiliations with respectable hospitals (they have an affiliation with one of the better hospitals in the city I went to med school), but so does almost every medical school in the country. So I don't really see how that's relevant.

It's relevant because that means SGU is a legitimate school and a legitimate option.

Never said that they're destined for garbage programs, just said the chances of them ending up in one is higher (just like that chance is higher for DOs than USMDs).

There are a lot of variables that decide where you eventually end up. It's not something that sneaks up on you at the last minute.

If you can sleep soundly when making a 200k+ investment that has zero guarantees of panning out and which carries a decent risk of losing everything, you're either much more naive or much more chill than I am (and I'm one of the more easy-going people in most of my friend groups).

I don't know you or what stage you are in your life but everything in life is pretty much a gamble. Nothing is guaranteed and SGU is actually low on the list of things that could send you to the poor house.

Do you invest or plan on investing at some point in the future? That's a much bigger risk overall to take than going to SGU. Federal loans are backed by the US Government. In the ABSOLUTE WORST case scenario, there are options to get them discharged or the terms heavily negotiated. Nobody is going to jump off a bridge by going to and then failing SGU...nobody. That's the fear you guys put in the minds of those who don't know as much as they should. And for those that do succeed at SGU, some programs in rural areas will pay even 50% of your outstanding loans or you can get the loans forgiven with 10 years of work at a not-for-profit. Those are all things however that you worry about LATER. Right now, you worry about passing tests.

If you finance SGU with private loans, you're just stupid then. Maybe not stupid but certainly not wise.

 

[Stagg737]

This will be my final response to this thread as I'm starting residency and no longer have the time or desire to continue adding to a garbage thread. Hopefully people can see the fallacies and faulty logic being used here though, which is why I contributed at all.

I think a lot of you guys give false hopes to those who want to improve weak stats that they all have a chance at ultimately getting into a US school

Considering that you keep looking at an incredibly small sub-section of individuals (those at SGU with 3.5+ GPA and 510+ MCAT) and are saying "Look! That makes SGU a great option!" I find this "false hope" statement to be very ironic.

You would actually be surprised. Graduating at the top of your class at Harvard is no guarantee you'll make it out of SGU. Are the odds in your favor though? Sure, why not it's Harvard.

This is legitimately one of the dumbest things implications I've ever seen on this site. If you're the top of your class at the top medical school in the world, you could make it out of any legitimate medical school in the world unless there were some crazy extenuating circumstances. Implying that those individuals wouldn't is ridiculous. Unless you're implying that SGU somehow makes it harder for their students to graduate or that the living conditions on the island can create a far more stressful environment that some people couldn't manage. Then I guess I'd agree with you, but I'm sure that's not what you meant, so I'll stick with your idiotic implication stance.

There are a lot of variables that decide where you eventually end up. It's not something that sneaks up on you at the last minute.

You're right that there are many variables (graduating from a Caribbean school being one) that factor into this. Your bolded statement is only half true though, in the sense that the match process is completely unpredictable and tons of people end up in places they'd never imagine they would. Go back to the match threads in March and you'll find dozens of people with strong apps who applied wisely talking about how they matched near the bottom of their lists or didn't match at all. This statement seems to be another thing which you are completely clueless about and will probably will respond with a "But, but, lots of people do just fine, so I'm right!" statement, so don't bother.

It's relevant because that means SGU is a legitimate school and a legitimate option.

Having rotations/connections to some legitimate programs does not make it a legitimate school. Any school where a significant percentage (even just 25%) of rotations aren't legitimate is a major problem and would get shut down almost immediately in the US. To be blunt, if SGU or really any of the other Caribbean schools outside of Puerto Rico applied for LCME (or even COCA) accreditation they'd get denied.

Do you invest or plan on investing at some point in the future? That's a much bigger risk overall to take than going to SGU.

Yet another completely *****ic statement which shows you have no idea what you're talking about. If you understand the basic principles of investing and the financial institutions which are the backbone of the US economy, you'd know how laughable this statement is unless you legitimately believe the entire US economy is going to collapse in the near future. Investing in mutual funds will have an almost guaranteed positive return in the long run, while attending SGU carries ~40% risk of not graduating and ending up with just debt. And before you say "but for those who are qualified they'll almost certainly graduate!!!" Remember that you said this:

You would actually be surprised. Graduating at the top of your class at Harvard is no guarantee you'll make it out of SGU. Are the odds in your favor though? Sure, why not it's Harvard.

So don't try and justify those who are "qualified with a 3.5 and 510" stats as being sure to get through it.


My final thoughts for this thread are that we have no idea who you are, but you are coming across as one of the following:

1. A troll.
2. An admin or other employee of SGU or someone who works closely with SGU.
3. A student or future student trying so, so hard to justify your decision to attend SGU.
4. A naive ***** who just wants to ignore what adcoms, SGU alums, and current students are telling you unless they agree with your strange and fallacy-filled logic.

Idk which of the above you are, but those are the options given the thought process and content of your posts in this thread. As I said before, I have no bias towards SGU either negative or positive and I wish all the students who attend the school well. I hope they get strong training and can go on to be strong physicians and I will support those colleagues I encounter whenever and however I can. However, the reality is that for many of them SGU will be far from ideal or even sufficient, and there is a very significant amount of data which supports that statement. Many will not graduate. Many will take 5 or 6 or even 7 years to graduate and will rack up more debt. Many may not get proper or strong pre-clinical education (see every student ever who said their curriculum was basically a 2-year board prep course) or clinical education (depends on student and where they rotated). Almost all will have severely limited what residency programs they have a chance at just by going there. Some won't match on their first attempt, and too many will never match. Will some have a great experience and love the career they are able to pursue? Most definitely. However, looking only at those individuals and completely ignoring everyone else (which is a large percentage of them) along with the significant hurdles and limitations they will encountered is an incredibly flawed way to look at this situation and does no one who is considering attending any favors. You can do whatever you want and complain about the negativity found on these boards, but when SGU students and grads along with PDs and those in administration all share the same perspectives, you'd be foolish to dismiss those viewpoints in favor of your own bias.

 

[JohnWood15]

That's unfortunate you think the thread is garbage. There are no fallacies on my end though so maybe re-read my posts?

Good luck with your residency though. I was under the impression that you were a third year or something like that. I didn't know you were just out of school.

Also, take it easy with the insults. Nobody insulted you or your choice of program but I can tell that you're getting defensive and worked up over an argument that doesn't even affect you so I'm not too sure why that is. I'm not critiquing your program but you somehow feel the need to critique one that you have not attended yourself and have admitted to having minimal, if any, real world experience with.

Nobody cares about your final thoughts lol. You admitted you're from a non-IMG friendly region. If anything that would suggest you are the one who has no idea what they are talking about or you're responding based on your own personal bias.

I have no bias towards SGU

Many will not graduate. Many will take 5 or 6 or even 7 years to graduate and will rack up more debt. Many may not get proper or strong pre-clinical education

Wow, for "no bias" you forgot to mention that 900 students were placed into a residency. Tell me again how you have so much experience with the SGU program? Did you tour SGU clinical locations during your weekends off or something?

Again, SDN and its users don't get the "final" say on any matter. You get an opinion like anybody else. You got yours and I obviously have mine. The people who end up applying actually get the final say. If I were you, I'd try and understand that first before making your next post because your last few posts made zero sense TBH and they sound more confrontational than useful.

 

[learner01]

Other than mainland Whats a good alternative to Caribbean? people come from Egypt, Saudi, Philippines, etc and take Stp 1 then go about practicing!

 

[JohnWood15]

Other than mainland Whats a good alternative to Caribbean? people come from Egypt, Saudi, Philippines, etc and take Stp 1 then go about practicing!

I think you meant to start another thread. This thread is asking a totally different question.

Please don't hijack threads. Thank you.

 

[Stagg737]

Have several hours of downtime, so a few quick responses:

Also, take it easy with the insults. Nobody insulted you or your choice of program but I can tell that you're getting defensive and worked up over an argument that doesn't even affect you so I'm not too sure why that is. I'm not critiquing your program but you somehow feel the need to critique one that you have not attended yourself and have admitted to having minimal, if any, real world experience with.

Not defensive at all. I'm very clear about the shortcomings of my school as well as my degree. You also seem to be defending a program you claim to have minimal real world experience with as you said you're just considering applying in the future. Unless you lied.

Wow, for "no bias" you forgot to mention that 900 students were placed into a residency.

I acknowledged those 930 individuals multiple times. Don't misrepresent my statements. The bolded is completely meaningless without context, which you consistently choose to ignore. That is a fallacy on its own. Looking at all the facts isn't bias, it's proper analysis. Cherry-picking data is not proper analysis, it's deceitful misrepresentation.

Did you tour SGU clinical locations during your weekends off or something?

I did in fact do an elective rotation at the hospital I previously mentioned in my city which is heavily sponsored by SGU so I have interacted with dozens of SGU med students. Many of them said they were grateful that the hospital was their core site as it was a solid hospital and many of their classmates said they felt uncomfortable with the clinical education they were receiving at other locations. Anecdotal, but I'll take the words of a couple dozen actual SGU students and residents over a likely internet troll. Remind us again, how do YOU know about SGU's clinical sites?

 

[Raney Schauer]

What's the DSM-5 code for this thread?

 

[JohnWood15]

Have several hours of downtime, so a few quick responses:



Not defensive at all. I'm very clear about the shortcomings of my school as well as my degree. You also seem to be defending a program you claim to have minimal real world experience with as you said you're just considering applying in the future. Unless you lied.



I acknowledged those 930 individuals multiple times. Don't misrepresent my statements. The bolded is completely meaningless without context, which you consistently choose to ignore. That is a fallacy on its own. Looking at all the facts isn't bias, it's proper analysis. Cherry-picking data is not proper analysis, it's deceitful misrepresentation.



I did in fact do an elective rotation at the hospital I previously mentioned in my city which is heavily sponsored by SGU so I have interacted with dozens of SGU med students. Many of them said they were grateful that the hospital was their core site as it was a solid hospital and many of their classmates said they felt uncomfortable with the clinical education they were receiving at other locations. Anecdotal, but I'll take the words of a couple dozen actual SGU students and residents over a likely internet troll. Remind us again, how do YOU know about SGU's clinical sites?

I thought you gave us your “final thoughts” already lol?

Is there a reason you’re going back and forth with me on a subject that, I think you’d agree, are not qualified to discuss? This thread was aimed towards the faculty and maybe a few SGU grads on this site. That’s not you right?

You’re just giving the standard “avoid the Caribbean” argument and you already clearly admitted you have minimal experience with the program.

So let’s get this straight, you ran into a few SGU students who you don’t even know, you had a short discussion with them and now you’re on an SGU thread giving us your “expert” opinion about the school?

I’m from NY area. I live next door to some of those hospitals. I’ve spoken to PD’s who interview IMG’s. I’ve shadowed IMG’s including SGU residents so yeah, I actually do know more of these people than you. I’m just leaving my opinion out and just stating some facts and trying to understand what all the negativity is about here on this forum. I didn’t even type “apply to SGU” yet.

So far we have one honest neutral response here and then a bunch of people, like yourself, who are offering up personal opinions and then failing pretty badly at answering why you have such a large group of students succeeding at this one school. I mean answer that part. We kinda know about the other stuff as there are countless discussions on those matters.

You can always say “no comment” or “IDK” and we can leave it at that too. You can also stay silent on the subject like some of the other users too.

 

[deleted480308]

What's the DSM-5 code for this thread?

Codes

 

[DrStephenStrange]

So far we have one honest neutral response here and then a bunch of people, like yourself, who are offering up personal opinions and then failing pretty badly at answering why you have such a large group of students succeeding at this one school. I mean answer that part. We kinda know about the other stuff as there are countless discussions on those matters.

I thought it was pretty clear that SGU is able to graduate 900 students because they accept close to twice that amount of students every year. I mean there's no way my school will be able to graduate 900 students because they only accept 150. But here are some stuff to think about though, what do you think would happen to my school if they only graduated 80 of the 150? In such case, would you feel comfortable to recommend my school to any pre-meds as a "legit option"?


Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[Goro]

Codes

 

[Stagg737]

So far we have one honest neutral response here and then a bunch of people, like yourself, who are offering up personal opinions and then failing pretty badly at answering why you have such a large group of students succeeding at this one school. I mean answer that part

@lenspx already answered for me, but since you asked I'll answer. If you took almost any US school, MD or DO, and had them accept 1,500 applicants, over 1,400 would graduate from that class easily. The biggest med school in the US is the LECOM system. They accept around 550 students per class (across 3 campuses) and regularly graduate over 540 (across those campuses). So why are only 900 people graduating from SGU? That graduation rate is pathetic.

I've backed up almost all my statements with data that you choose to ignore. You have provided no data at all other than "900 students graduate". So my question for you that you have failed to answer is why do you have such a large group of students failing at this one school? Since I answered you, how about you answer me?

 

[Stagg737]

I’m just leaving my opinion out and just stating some facts and trying to understand what all the negativity is about here on this forum.

I missed this, but this is a laughable statement. All you've done is shoot down facts without stating any actual facts of your own other than "900 people graduated". I'll gladly change my opinion when you can provide some actual data that says I should. Until then I'll stick with the facts from the NRMP, PDs, and students and physicians who attend(ed) the school.

 

[JohnWood15]

If you took almost any US school, MD or DO...

Are you seriously trying to compare a for-profit Caribbean medical school to a US school and then wonder why there is high attrition at the Caribbean school? When you start a post like that, it makes me wonder if you even know what you're talking about to begin with.

Nobody, I mean NOBODY is trying to say your experience at a Caribbean medical school, even the best Caribbean medical school, is going to resemble your experience at a US medical program. Having said that, SGU has a higher STEP1 average for their US and Canadian students than the total US MD average so even though the Caribbean medical school experience would be different, academically it's not second-rate. That's REAL data unless you want to argue that SGU is lying about their STEP1 results as well lol. I wouldn't be able to help you there.

What you are failing to understand is that the SGU program is giving 900 or so students the opportunity to become a practicing physician when that opportunity might not have existed for them had they applied or continued to apply to a US program. You seem to be comparing the Caribbean to US programs which is silly. Nobody who makes a pro-argument for the Caribbean pathway is doing the same. Think about that for a second.

Again, nobody cares about your data! You have 900 matches and that's what anybody who is looking to go down that route is going to focus on. I originally asked what your (everybody's) explanation for that was. Like I said, I got only one neutral response that I actually respect and then a bunch of ramblings. Your "data" cannot predict a final outcome and that's why everybody will take it with a grain of salt. The 900 matches is truth; it happened; it's real; it's tangible.

why do you have such a large group of students failing at this one school?

I already answered this question if you actually took the time to read each of my posts slowly. SGU and all of these Caribbean schools are for-profit schools. They have a set number of clinical spots and they take in many more students than they have clinical spots for. The best students are best equipped to handle the program, the weak are not. It's a risk you take. You really have to look at what you have to offer and see if you're the right candidate for this path. Going back to what I said about mitigating that risk, I feel that a solid 3.5 and decent MCAT score should put most students at the top 50% of the SGU class as most people are not applying with those stats and I would question why anybody would even apply to any type of medical school, be it a US program or Caribbean program without proper academic credentials. Is it ethically wrong for SGU to accept such a student? Yeah. Should the student know better though? Yeah.

Now tell me why 900 people successfully matched in 2018 having gone down the Caribbean route and why should some other student not believe that they cannot achieve similar success and become a practicing physician as well? That's a very simple question. You type a lot but you have not explained this or even touched on it. In all fairness, I don't believe you would have the experience to answer this to begin with so that's why I opened up the discussion to the PD's and some other people here who actually went to one of these schools.

I'll gladly change my opinion

I really don't care about whatever opinions you might have nor do I care for you to change them. I only asked you or anyone to explain why SGU should not be seen as a legitimate second-chance option to become a practicing physician.

 

[Stagg737]

Having said that, SGU has a higher STEP1 average for their US and Canadian students than the total US MD average

SGU's average is ~225. Overall average is ~230. I've never seen any school give Step 1 data for individuals based on country of origin, so if you've got that data I'd love to see it (as it's very relevant to those from the US considering SGU).

You seem to be comparing the Caribbean to US programs which is silly. Nobody who makes a pro-argument for the Caribbean pathway is doing the same.

This happens all the time in the pre-med forums. You must not have looked through many of those threads...

You have 900 matches and that's what anybody who is looking to go down that route is going to focus on.

And it's stupid to only look at 60% of the data points. If you did a study and only looked at the 60% of patients whose outcomes you liked, then you'd have a crappy study which would be labeled as fraud. The whole picture matters.

The 900 matches is truth; it happened; it's real; it's tangible.

So are the 500-600 failures/year. They happened. They're real. They're tangible.

I feel that a solid 3.5 and decent MCAT score should put most students at the top 50% of the SGU class

Those stats would also put most students in a US school if they apply broadly enough. So why should they go with a higher risk option?

Now tell me why 900 people successfully matched in 2018 having gone down the Caribbean route and why should some other student not believe that they cannot achieve similar success and become a practicing physician as well?

Not saying they couldn't do it or that it shouldn't be a considered option for some, but they need to address all the risks as well. Again, it's a risk I wouldn't be willing to take, but to each their own.

You type a lot but you have not explained this or even touched on it.

I've explained all of this multiple times. If you've missed it that's on you.

I opened up the discussion to the PD's and some other people here who actually went to one of these schools.

And then you told the people who went to those schools their opinions were biased and didn't matter. Hypocritical much?

I only asked you or anyone to explain why SGU should not be seen as a legitimate second-chance option to become a practicing physician.

It's not that it can't be a legitimate option, it's that the risks to reach that point are immense, options for residency are severely limited, quality of the education in many cases is questionable, and many pre-meds are completely misinformed about all of these facts and believe that Caribbean schools offer the same opportunities as US schools.

As I said, I generally advise against it because I'm risk averse and believe advising anyone to pursue a path with a high chance of failure which would lead to six figures of debt and no real career opportunities and which will give you limited career options with success is bad advice. It's the same reason I advise against attending certain US schools and advise 99.99999% of pre-meds to go USMD if at all possible with the caveat that each person's opinions and life goals/values will differ.

 

[JohnWood15]

SGU's average is ~225. Overall average is ~230. I've never seen any school give Step 1 data for individuals based on country of origin, so if you've got that data I'd love to see it (as it's very relevant to those from the US considering SGU).

Notice how I quoted SGU's US and Canadian students NOT all SGU students. I did not use the data from ALL Students which is 224. You need to read more closer. You can Google SGU 2018 STEP1 results. They will provide you with that data. If you disagree with that data, don't tell me about it, go ask them. That data is public information. If it's incorrect, they could get sued.

This happens all the time in the pre-med forums. You must not have looked through many of those threads...

I'll say it again, nobody is making an argument about the Caribbean and comparing it to a US program. I don't care if some high school kid on SDN argues otherwise.

And it's stupid to only look at 60% of the data points. If you did a study and only looked at the 60% of patients whose outcomes you liked, then you'd have a crappy study which would be labeled as fraud. The whole picture matters.

You lost that argument so what did you do? You made up another one...that doesn't even make sense.

So are the 500-600 failures/year.

You just told me SGU doesn't publish those stats lol. Where did 500-600 come from? You just made that figure up. I didn't make up 900 successful matches however. Think about it.

Those stats would also put most students in a US school if they apply broadly enough. So why should they go with a higher risk option?

A 3.5/505 will not put you in any US MD program unless you're a URM and I'm not even too sure about that. You can improve those numbers but I highly doubt most people go from a 505 MCAT to 515+. Even if you did, those are multiple attempts and still put you at some type of a disadvantage to students who don't have any deficiencies. A 3.5/505 will guaranteed get you into SGU with some type of a scholarship or partial tuition grant and you will have the best opportunity to be in the top half of your class which will put you in the best position to succeed in the program. Most people are not applying to SGU's program with a 3.5. I think their average is something like a 3.2 which means many more people will below that. Most people will not apply to three or more MD cycles. You're dreaming if you think most people think like that. Provide me any data showing how many students keep applying "till they get in." I'll even go as far as saying a significant number of US MD first-cycle rejects will immediately apply and attend SGU for the same application cycle.

I've explained all of this multiple times.

No you haven't but you do like to type a lot.

And then you told the people who went to those schools their opinions were biased and didn't matter.

Yeah, "I succeeded at SGU but I don't recommend the school." I'm sure that is going to convince a lot of people not to apply.

it's a risk I wouldn't be willing to take

Nobody cares what YOU want to do lol Especially someone who just said they are from a non-IMG friendly location. That's like Donald Trump going on a cooking forum and saying he doesn't think Mexican food tastes good.

It's not that it can't be a legitimate option

You're best bet is to leave it at this and then let the person applying decide if all those other things you mentioned are valid points...because you know what, those are things you cannot prove when you have a giant group of 900+ students who have proved otherwise.

...and believe that Caribbean schools offer the same opportunities as US schools.

Nobody, I mean NOBODY is trying to say your experience at a Caribbean medical school, even the best Caribbean medical school, is going to resemble your experience at a US medical program.

That's literally in the previous post.

I generally advise against it

You're an admitted recent medical school graduate who has just started their residency and is from an area of the country that is not IMG-friendly. I don't think somebody like you should be advising anybody anything as it relates to Caribbean medical schools until you are in a position where you can demonstrate that you have first-hand experience with these programs or their graduates i.e. you become a PD yourself who rejects applications. You are however entitled to whatever opinions you may have and I'm not trying to change them.

...go USMD if at all possible

Even strong candidates will fail to gain admission to US MD programs after multiple attempts for various reasons. SGU is a second-chance school and I'm saying it's the only real school down there and those people who are destined to fail in gaining admission to a US MD program have a legitimate shot at becoming practicing physicians by going to SGU as opposed to wasting money and time in continued failed application cycles and/or pursuing other careers.

And still, I haven't told anyone to apply to SGU. I just asked to give me a convincing reason why a legitimate pre-med student should not.

 

[Stagg737]

Notice how I quoted SGU's US and Canadian students NOT all SGU students. I did not use the data from ALL Students which is 224. You need to read more closer. You can Google SGU 2018 STEP1 results. They will provide you with that data. If you disagree with that data, don't tell me about it, go ask them. That data is public information. If it's incorrect, they could get sued.

I did this and did not see any data on scores other than the overall average was 224. The only breakdown in regards to what you're referencing was first-time pass rate. If you have the actual data, link it. You've been a member for 10 days, you can do that now if it exists.

I'll say it again, nobody is making an argument about the Caribbean and comparing it to a US program. I don't care if some high school kid on SDN argues otherwise.

Except people do. I also guess high school kids 0n SDN aren't people now...

You just told me SGU doesn't publish those stats lol. Where did 500-600 come from? You just made that figure up. I didn't make up 900 successful matches however. Think about it.

The SGU students I know who said their classes started with that many people. I don't have to make figures up that I've been told by students themselves (some in this very thread). Think about that.

No you haven't but you do like to type a lot.

I have, you must just have poor reading comprehension.

A 3.5/505 will not put you in any US MD program unless you're a URM and I'm not even too sure about that.

Those stats are above the mean for some MD schools in the US and several DO schools. Buy the MSAR and look if you don't believe it. It's $20 and far more factual than any data you've provided here.

I don't think somebody like you should be advising anybody anything as it relates to Caribbean medical schools until you are in a position where you can demonstrate that you have first-hand experience with these programs or their graduates i.e. you become a PD yourself who rejects applications.

And you're just "some guy that lives near SGU hospitals and has talked to PDs". Maybe you should take your own advice.

 

[Raney Schauer]

Oh my god get a room already

 

[JohnWood15]

You clearly have no argument man lol. I mean you do have an argument but it's just not good and I no longer wish to respond. Anyway, good luck with your residency though and I certainly hope you have some positive encounters with some IMG's during that journey and you and others can keep an open-mind because I've worked alongside a lot of them.

The choice to apply to the Caribbean as a second-chance option will always warrant some type of discussion as I think it should...hence this thread, but I highly doubt someone will pull up this thread in the future and see some of the commentary here and then ultimately choose not to apply. So, anticipating that this thread and others are going to reach a lot of people, it's probably in the best interest of everyone to remain neutral unless you can contribute some really hard evidence that would convince someone not to apply and I don't think you'll ever find hard evidence. I'd like to think I was neutral by admitting that there is high attrition at Caribbean schools and that I believe you still have to be somewhat of a very good student and test-taker to be able to successfully complete the program. There were a few SGU people here, I'm assuming they were SGU people, who offered up their thoughts but oddly admitted that they were succeeding in the program lol. When I see that, in my mind, I'm thinking if they can do it, the next person can do it. I don't think it makes much sense to tell someone you succeeded and then tell them, "but you probably wont because...(insert data)." You'd have to have a really good reason for that and I didn't get that here.

The SGU students I know who said...

Anecdotal evidence like this is not helpful either and is rampant through most of these types of threads. That's where some of the other PD's on the forum could have been really helpful because they actually look at these applications and they could offer up some real advice as to why they look at or choose not to look at these students. If you have the "why" from the PD, then that's actually real important information that you can use when deciding if it's worth it to apply to a Caribbean program and spend that type of money in the process knowing what a PD is looking for in the end. To be completely fair, you'd have to have a PD state that their program is IMG-friendly or has at least accepted some IMG's in the past and I don't even know if you'll be able to get that on SDN. Look back to @aProgDirector's response early on though and I think that was pretty fair considering they have been critical of the Caribbean route but nevertheless remained neutral with their response. I actually appreciate that because that's hard to get here. I was just teasing @gyngyn and I understand why I didn't get their input.

I just have a strange feeling this discussion will continue to be one-sided even if SGU were to somehow gain accreditation by the LCME and transfer operations to Long Island and become a not-for-profit US program complete with a 100% first-time match rate lol. Personally, I think that is unfortunate because I think everybody that comes on SDN does so with some hope of becoming a doctor and whether you agree with me or not, a lot of people who might have no hope at increasingly competitive US programs will continue to become doctors by attending offshore programs like SGU. Discrediting them to the degree that you find here really makes no sense if they are posting match lists that show they are consistently producing MD's and competent MD's at that. How you want to interpret that data is entirely up to you but I personally feel that SGU is the best and most legitimate of all these offshore programs but a big problem with a school like SGU is that they are ultimately a business first and they would have no problem telling a terrible student that they could succeed when I don't think that's being completely truthful. I think I read somewhere here or on valuemd that SGU was worth a billion dollars. That's no joke...especially if you're the owner lol. But that's where I think SDN comes into the equation and I think certain people at least have an obligation to be more neutral than others in helping some of these students navigate this path when they are serious about taking this path and have the credentials to do so. 900+ matches...I keep saying it. It has to be somebody right. You'll guaranteed have 900+ matches in 2019 as well.

I said what I had to say here. I could care less if you agree with me but I felt I needed to bring it up because it was nauseating to go through thread after thread with what I felt was incorrect or simple vague, unintelligible advice. Personally, I will most probably apply to SGU for January 2019. If that happens the way I want it to happen, I will gladly update this thread with my own personal progress...for those that care. If it doesn't, I'll offer up an explanation as to why not.

Otherwise, good luck to everyone and I hope everyone here ultimately realizes their dream of becoming a doctor even if there are some of us that choose to take a different path to get there.

 

[Robin-jay]

The choice to apply to the Caribbean as a second-chance option will always warrant some type of discussion as I think it should

Why is it MD/DO or MD Caribbean always?

What's wrong with DPM? Podiatry schools are easier to get in to, take the same exact courses as MD/DO's, have excellent compensation (most physicians from MD/DO's are primary care, and make around that of a podiatrist), help patients as a top tier health care provider, have around 99-100% match rates, and have great job aspects with choices ranging from surgery, to working with children or the elderly.

Seems like people forget this path to being a physician (and surgeon) exist.

Instead, people are gambling hundreds of thousands of dollars (life ruining amounts of debt if you don't match) on off-shore schools just for the letters "MD".

 

[deleted245139]

Well, this has been an interesting sales pitch.

 

[Mikkus]

I honestly believe that in four years, once you go through the match, your outlook on this matter will change. You are willfully ignoring those who actually have experience, which is like putting your head in the sand because you don't want to get a sunburn. Just because stagg didn't go to SGU doesn't mean he is uninformed, honestly he has a good amount of correct information. Some of the clinical rotation spots are horrific. Some of those hospitals in NY are not learning centers for clinical rotations, they are places you go to do the miserable residents scut work. Clinical rotation spots are not guaranteed in one location or in the timing you would like, I had friends who ended up having to move hospital to hospital every month, and were sorely unprepared for residency.

I do not have a single friend I graduated alongside who wouldn't offer the same warning I have. I get you are ignoring what you don't want to hear, but I am hoping something gets through to those reading after you. You can be successful there, but you need to go in with your eyes open and understand the chances of failure exist, and you will not be as prepared as your USMD co-residents.

 

[JohnWood15]

I honestly believe that in four years, once you go through the match, your outlook on this matter will change. You are willfully ignoring those who actually have experience, which is like putting your head in the sand because you don't want to get a sunburn. Just because stagg didn't go to SGU doesn't mean he is uninformed, honestly he has a good amount of correct information. Some of the clinical rotation spots are horrific. Some of those hospitals in NY are not learning centers for clinical rotations, they are places you go to do the miserable residents scut work. Clinical rotation spots are not guaranteed in one location or in the timing you would like, I had friends who ended up having to move hospital to hospital every month, and were sorely unprepared for residency.

I do not have a single friend I graduated alongside who wouldn't offer the same warning I have. I get you are ignoring what you don't want to hear, but I am hoping something gets through to those reading after you. You can be successful there, but you need to go in with your eyes open and understand the chances of failure exist, and you will not be as prepared as your USMD co-residents.

I will only respond to this ONE last thread only because the tone is not with the usual SDN-snark.

You're always going to bring up a few examples and I'm always going to bring up some examples. I also know people who went to SGU like you who had different experiences and different opinions of the program. Like I said earlier, the SGU crowd and/or the anti-Caribbean crowd on SDN is only one opinion; it's by no means a final word so nobody here should be talking like they are giving any type of final word. I don't think anybody just comes on SDN for the final word anyway. Or at least I hope they don't. SDN is a very small piece of the overall puzzle of how to get into medical school but I think it's still a piece nevertheless because it's readily accessible for all to see.

Am I trying to say that if I do matriculate and graduate from SGU that one day I will say "wow, SGU was the best decision I ever made and I'm happy it happened this way and I wouldn't change the way I earned the MD" well then I'll tell you today that most-likely won't happen because I did my research and I know what SGU is and what it isn't. I think that part is important too. What probably will happen one day however is that I will say "I don't regret pursuing a career in medicine and I'm happy I got the MD." In the end, SGU is about getting you the MD and there are some people who will actually look at it just like that and be content with their outcome. If we're going to be neutral on the matter, then maybe we can agree to that.

I don't think it's fair that you're saying third year is just "scut work" when you could just as easily have said "third year is what you make of it." Maybe my connections are more proactive than your classmates but I haven't met any SGU medical student who has said third year did not prepare them for STEP2 or residency or that they were unhappy with their rotations or electives. Also, yeah clinical spots are not guaranteed in one location but do you honestly not know students in your class that completed all third year cores in one hospital or at least one geographical location? If you say no, you know you're lying because EVERYBODY I know that went to SGU completed all third and fourth year rotations in one geographical spot. Then again, I only know students who graduated in four years. So the more neutral and accurate response would have been "if you have lower STEP1 scores, you'll risk gaps in scheduling and/or traveling from hospital to hospital or location to location to secure third year spots because the students with higher scores will get first choice. If you're a good student at SGU, I can promise you...based on what I have seen, that you will complete third and fourth year with no gaps, in one geographical location, and even at one hospital if you wish. That all comes back to my recommendation that anyone going to SGU have respectable academic credentials and don't apply just because SGU would let you in. You can't even say that about some of these lesser schools in the Caribbean where clinical locations are at the crappiest hospitals and even if you are one of their stop students, you will guaranteed by traveling across the country every 4-12 weeks for a new rotation or elective.

I wouldn't go as far as saying

you will not be as prepared as your USMD co-residents.

There is just no way that you could measure that. You might feel that way and your friend might feel that way but you can't speak for everyone just because that's how you FEEL. If that were true, I would think a PD would take notice.

One of my friends is at a hospital where SGU students rotate with NYMC students. He thinks he's more academically prepared than his NYMC classmates and he has a chip on his shoulder so he works harder than they do. Some of those NYMC students have 220 or so STEP1 scores and these SGU students have 230's and 240's but nobody is disrespecting anybody and nobody is looking down on anybody because of where they went to medical school. When you're completing a rotation, you're completing the damn rotation and you're trying to make yourself better; you're not demeaning your classmate because they went to an offshore school; nobody has time for that. That's the reality of it.

You can be successful there, but you need to go in with your eyes open

My eyes are wide open man lol and I think you know that. I'm making sure every other student who wants to do this is going in eyes wide open as well...minus the bias.

Most of you guys immediately dismiss this path instead of taking the time to objectively tell someone this...

You can be successful there...

And that's what I'd like to see more of here.

Good luck to you.

 

[BurntFlower]

 

[deleted314957]

Dominica is apparently bye bye. I don't know how the accreditation process works but Ross is a "Caribbean" school in the US right now. I have a feeling that Ross will relocate to another island. I spoke to a college professor/pre-med adviser who toured Dominica recently and the island really is non-functional...for the time being at least. That's something to keep an eye on and that's actually a really big deal. Quite frankly, I have no idea how Ross is even allowed to hold classes in Tennessee.

Regarding US program directors, again, this comes back to the regional argument I was making. We can talk to a PD from Pennsylvania who would be extremely biased toward ANY Caribbean applicant but drive 500 miles east and it's a different story where you would have a PD begging an SGU grad to fill up a spot in their community program. Not saying that SGU grads or Caribbean grads take all of the undesirable community programs but that is still a residency and the argument here is that the Caribbean is somehow not a valid option to become a physician.

I don't know a whole lot about the coming changes but I do know that in 2023, if you're at some no-name school, you are SOL. But like I said, I only think there are 2-3 solid choices in the Caribbean and if you are at one of those schools, those changes need not apply to you.

My argument here is encourage, not discourage. I think it's common knowledge that you should not attempt medical school with a 2.0 GPA. But I am not talking about that group and I am not talking about any school that would accept someone with those types of stats. I'm talking about the group that has respectable stats and perhaps even a very solid scientific foundation. A science GPA of 3.0 or greater is technically not bad; it's not acceptable by US med school standards but since when is getting a B in organic chemistry a bad thing? When I was in school, there were people getting in the teens on some of those exams lol.

I bet most people here don't know that the average GPA to enter medical school in 1980 was a 3.0. Look it up. I guess the doctors that are treating us today are complete screw up's right? Wait, why on earth would someone have gone to SGU in 1978 if they could get into the US with a 3.0 GPA lol? The process really does make your head spin but hey SGU graduated all of that class from 1978 apparently.

Excuse me. Where are you getting this nonsense about getting into
U.S. Med schools with a 3.0 gpa circa1978?
I am very familiar with how it was in the 70’s. I graduated from Univ. of
Illinois Champaign-Urbana in 1973 after 7 semesters (3 1/2 yrs) with
B.S. biochemistry. My curriculum was academically brutal and the
“pre-med atmosphere” was cutthroat. I scored a 36 on MCAT after my
sophomore year ( took it a year early to see what it would be like). The GPA I applied with was 3.26 with many upper
level and/or graduate level science courses. I was a 21 y/o white guy. My GPA was LOW (Average matriculant GPA was ~ 3.6). I applied to every school
in Chicago without even really knowing anything about them.
Never heard from U of Chicago, Loyola or Rush. Northwestern interviewed
me and I never heard further. Chicago Med College ( now Rosy
Franklin) sent a letter that basically “suggested” that a parental
donation of some huge (1973) sum may be associated, somehow,
with an acceptance. That school was a known s*** h*** at that time.
U of I Chicago wait listed me (~ #20) which, at the time, was almost a shoo
in. Acceptance came in June. UIC did not interview me.
I would not consider a MCAT of 36, GPA of 3.26 heavily loaded with
upper level BCMP being wait listed at one’s state school to be an
“easy” admission. And, today’s grade inflation did not exist then.
However, nowadays there are some BIG differences. No one really cared
about extra curriculars, clinical experience, volunteering and all
that touchy feely stuff. Hell, UIC did not even interview most.
They looked at your undergrad GPA derived from what courses
and from where, and your MCAT. That was about it.

The stuff that I think is onerous for you kids is all the ancillary
busy work you must do beyond GPA, course content and MCAT.
Academically it was no easier in the 70’s.