someone at my school cheated on the COMLEX and....

[sophiejane]

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They'll probably both make excellent docs, but like all of us, have a few discernment issues that need worked out first.

"Discernment issues"?? Are you kidding?!

They knowingly CHEATED on the most important exam of this undergraduate medical education. Piety has nothing to do with it. That is just an easy way for you to make it look like it's about me, which it's not, I say again, and again and again, because it's not sinking in, is it?

Your argument about increasing the number of rural docs as a reason to let someone who is dishonest go ahead and graduate is ludicrous. How many people are we talking about here? Maybe 20 per year, at most? Do you really think this is going to do anything to the shortage of physicians in underserved areas?

Why is no one concerned that someone who cheats at this level could talk themselves into changing medical records, or lying about something they did or did not do to a patient on the wards to make themselves look better to get a better grade on a rotation?

But then I guess they'll just end up with me (and Dr. White) out in that "no name" community and I'll have to deal with their screw-ups...

On second thought...radiology in the suburbs is starting to look better and better...

 

[LukeWhite]

Your argument about increasing the number of rural docs as a reason to let someone who is dishonest go ahead and graduate is ludicrous. How many people are we talking about here? Maybe 20 per year, at most? Do you really think this is going to do anything to the shortage of physicians in underserved areas?

I think that twenty doctors a year would do quite a lot for the shortage of physicians in those underserved areas in which they practice. Certainly more good, I'd think, than the harm letting twenty folks who cheated graduate does to the integrity of the profession.

Speaking of that integrity, of course I'm concerned this student will practice deception in the future. I'm also concerned that students who have never cheated will. I'm also concerned about the competence of students who will graduate with a sterling reputation and spend most of society's investment playing golf four days a week. My concerns, however, aren't grounds for excluding someone from medicine, and thank goodness for that, or there would be far fewer doctors.

And to some extent, Sophie, yes, this is about you. You're the one who saw fit to express your outrage to the general public. For someone so concerned about the reputation of your school, you haven't done much for yours, nor does it seem you've done your erstwhile classmate any favors. Of course, you're free to vent however you like. You shouldn't be surprised, though, if some people see fit to call you out on the propriety of that.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

And to some extent, Sophie, yes, this is about you. You're the one who saw fit to express your outrage to the general public. For someone so concerned about the reputation of your school, you haven't done much for yours, nor does it seem you've done your erstwhile classmate any favors. Of course, you're free to vent however you like. You shouldn't be surprised, though, if some people see fit to call you out on the propriety of that.

Exactly. The whole argument about school reputation rings hollow to me. It's not like TCOM will get a rep for being a bunch of cheaters (uless they read this blow-everything-out-of-proportion-thread on SDN 😉 ).

Again, for all the talk about about professionalism, it sure isn't professional to go the the admin and demand answers. Make too many waves, and you run the risk of being seen as an agitator. That's not the kind of stuff you want on your Dean's letter.

 

[Idiopathic]

Exactly. The whole argument about school reputation rings hollow to me. It's not like TCOM will get a rep for being a bunch of cheaters (uless they read this blow-everything-out-of-proportion-thread on SDN 😉 ).

Again, for all the talk about about professionalism, it sure isn't professional to go the the admin and demand answers. Make too many waves, and you run the risk of being seen as an agitator. That's not the kind of stuff you want on your Dean's letter.

Whats comical is that you two claim to know what is best for everyone else, and you even dispense advice with this in mind...truly funny. What do you know about Dean's letters and what could show up in one? Some of us believe this is precisely the kind of thing that should be discussed with the administration, and as long as you can do it with respect, there should be no problems.

 

[jf]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sophiejane sharing her schools experience with this forum.

This forum is here to discuss issues about medicine, ethics, etc.. The issue she brings up is a valid one that needs to be discussed. Some of you may become programs directors, deans, etc.. and it's not a bad idea to discuss these types of issues and to get different opinions. I think it is wrong to condemn her for expressing her outrage as she is justified in doing so.

As for making waves and questioning authority, I absolutely think that this should be done. To sit back and accept everything you are told by any administration is terrible. I hope this is no surprise to you, but not all administrations have your true interests at heart. This school's administration is clearly concerned more with other issues, rather than maintaining ethical standards. Does this school have a stated policy on cheating or an honor code for that matter?

As far as the issue of sending less than ethical doctors to non-competitive rural FP residencies, well that is just absurd. Just because these positions may be harder to fill than your average city dermatologist position, doesn't mean that they should be getting a subpar physician. That one physician will do more damage in this type of environment, where he/she may be the sole provider for a town, than in a city type environment where there are thousands of doctors.

Those of you that are continuously criticizing this young lady's decision to share her outrage, should think a little bit harder about this issue. It appears that you are condoning the act of cheating (especially on such an important NATIONAL exam) by your words.

Just my opinion!

 

[tool]

As for making waves and questioning authority, I absolutely think that this should be done. To sit back and accept everything you are told by any administration is terrible. I hope this is no surprise to you, but not all administrations have your true interests at heart. This school's administration is clearly concerned more with other issues, rather than maintaining ethical standards. Does this school have a stated policy on cheating or an honor code for that matter?

Just my opinion!

I totally disagree with the above statement. Sure you can question authority and think for yourself but going to administration and requesting an explanation is asinine. Where do you draw the line? Using your logic we should request an explanation on why certain students were granted admission......because we all know that more qualified students were rejected.

It's truly troubling that some on here keep stating that the school did not follow the honor code or ethical standards. Where is it documented that the only consequence of cheating is expulsion? Lastly, the student has be punished......repeating the whole f'n year and having to explain why the rest of his/her life

 

[doctorsbookmark]

When I was in medical school, there was someone writing his own letter of recommendation and filling out his own clinical evaluation and turn it into the clinical education office. The whole time, he was on vacation. He was about to graduate with honors. Fortunately, he was caught two weeks before graduation and he was kicked out and not allowed to graduate.

Cheating happens in medical school just like any other field. I too believe that tolerating it is not the right thing to do.

 

[Ice-1]

Another poster (maybe it was Idio) made a good point in that it would be intersting to know the exact circumstances under which the NBOME will tolerate cheating on one of its board exams. This change in written policy on their part should be made known to all (without disclosing info about the student involved). Since all of us are about to have our wallets lightened by $1K to take the COMLEX-PE then the policy should be made known before the first testing this October. COMLEX 2 is coming up too so I'd like to see the new policy before then.

 

[Lokie]

This is disturbing in many ways

First that someone who cheated on step one is being allowed to continue the pursuit to become a physician. Cheaters do not belong in a position where they are going to make decisions that will affect patients? heath/lives. This was not a mistake it was a calculated act.

Second it disturbs me that anyone would defend the cheater's actions. Starting the ?Good ol Boys club? kind of early don?t you think? This student should be expelled. That is not harsh, it?s life. A person of such poor character does not belong in the heath profession. We protect our profession by protecting our patients first. This person clearly puts him or herself before the patients and the profession.

I am appalled at the school for letting the student stay, the NBOME for allowing the student to take Step 1 again and at anyone who would defend such an act. This demonstrates poor character and an obvious lack of integrity on the part of the NBOME, the school, the student and anyone who would defend the student. Or perhaps they all think the student is someone who will be good at looking up information under pressure.

 

[doctorsbookmark]

Ironically, looking up information under pressure very well simulates the real life in medicine.

 

[LukeWhite]

I am appalled at the school for letting the student stay, the NBOME for allowing the student to take Step 1 again and at anyone who would defend such an act. This demonstrates poor character and an obvious lack of integrity on the part of the NBOME, the school, the student and anyone who would defend the student.

A single solitary post, and your first used to repeat the same blanket condemnations we've had for nine pages already? And going to the trouble to resurrect the thread? Rather pointless at best, suspiciously trollish however you cut it.

I'd be grateful for an explanation as to exactly how this displays an "obvious lack of integrity." As best I can tell, those defending the student have nothing to gain by doing so. I at least haven't and don't expect to receive any benefit, tangible or otherwise, from the couple of hours I've already spent on this thread.

Actions lacking integrity tend to happen because the person's got something to gain. If you have any ideas what we're getting out of a "good ol' boys club" that defends someone we've never met under circumstances no one argues are excusable, I'd love to hear it.

Here's the formula for people who attack this student (with a few thankful exceptions):

1. What this student did was inexcusable.
2. This student should be expelled.
3. This student's lack of integrity is imparted to everyone who agrees that he or she shouldn't be expelled, because that's excusing the crime.
4. Not expelling is excusing the crime because it's not the harshest possible punishment.
5. The harshest possible punishment is necessary because what the student did is inexcusable.

And round and round we go.

 

[Idiopathic]

First that someone who cheated on step one is being allowed to continue the pursuit to become a physician. Cheaters do not belong in a position where they are going to make decisions that will affect patients? heath/lives. This was not a mistake it was a calculated act.

Playing devil's advocate here, I will argue that cheating on this exam (to get a higher score) has very little impact on the quality of physician that is produced. We cant argue that standardized tests are poor markers of physician capacity and then guarantee the tests validity this way. This man could be the next Debakey (or AT still) for all we know. It certainly does nothing for our evaluation of his character, but really has little bearing on how good a physician I feel this person could be.

My biggest concern has always been how the NBOME would deal with this.

 

[Jason_AZCOM]

...and they are getting another chance to repeat second year.

I am venting here because it just makes me so mad...I find it totally demoralizing that the rest of us are working so hard...and they are allowing someone to continue--actually giving them the chance to become a PHYSICIAN--after they blantantly cheated on a board exam. (This person was caught in the bathroom with a board review book during the exam).

What's the policy at other schools? Anyone know of a similar experience and how it was dealt with?

It seems like such a slap in the face to the rest of us to let this person join our class and take up a seat. Who knows how long they had been cheating up to the point they got caught. My guess is it wasn't the first time. That would be like a first time robber going for the Mona Lisa or something.

As disgusted as I am by this person's actions, I am more disgusted that the administration gave them a second chance. I can't think of anyone who would knowingly go to a doc that they knew had cheated on their board exams.

It is hard to say without knowing the complete facts of the situation.

Many people appeared to take breaks and left the room with their bag/purse during the exam at my school, did they have books or review material in there?

Personally, I think each test book/computerized series of questions should be shorter, and no breaks allowed until submission of that group of questions.

That would eliminate the possibility for this type of cheating.

 

[kyriacos01]

Nearly a year removed and nine pages later....WTF?!


All the best,
-ky

 

[esposo]

Cheating is wrong but I think the policing and judging of such activities should be left to the administration. Sophie's almost vigilante-like attitude toward this is disturbing. Cheating is wrong but this is a person we are talking about...not your soap box. He or she has a career and is probably a good person who made a mistake he or she terribly regrets. I don't think an action like this forever condems this person to be a bad physician.

One of the wisest pieces of advice I have ever been given was being told not to judge others. All of us are human and capable of mistakes. And it's likely all of us will commit some mistake later in our careers. It's just bound to happen. And when that happens, I'm certain all of us would prefer that we had people who were willing to forgive as opposed to harshly judging us at that point. Just remember, you could be on the other side of the fence one day. Be cool and forgiving and focus on your life.

 

[esposo]

Why not devote your energies to helping this student out, Mr Scarlet C's former classmates? The decision's been made and life moves on. Getting that explanation you feel you're owed does nothing; rallying around the student and helping them survive the straight-and-narrow might be a more useful and dare I say, even more satisfying use of what appears to be way too much post-boards free time.

Well said, Luke! This is probably the wisest thing I have read on this thread. No one cheats on a national board exam unless the person feels he or she has to. I very seriously doubt the person cheated because the person wanted to take advantage of the system and their classmates. If you are so concerned with the situation, why not talk to the person directly and befriend that person and help them out. That person is going to be your colleague so if you are concerned that he is ethically challenged, maybe it's best you work with that person.

 

[PACtoDOC]

One of the wisest pieces of advice I have ever been given was being told not to judge others. All of us are human and capable of mistakes. And it's likely all of us will commit some mistake later in our careers. .

By definition, a mistake is an accident. This event was not an accident as we all know. I am sure I will commit many a mistake in my long career, but none will be made purposefully and none will ever be in this ballpark of stupidity. And to say that we do not have to judge one another in this profession is to be naive. Just when I think it is safe to claim I am liberal in most aspects of my thinking, some granola corduroy comes by and suprises the crap out if me with how free thinking they really are. I mean come on, at what point in a profession do we have an obligation to say that we cannot look the other way, and that we must act for the betterment of our future patients? I think major barriers such as board exams, criminal activity, and significant unethical behavior should be situations where we are NOT obligated to simply forgive someone. This dead issue though was bound to be dug up though because this was an issue that made a lot of people very upset. And everyone who knew about it had a right to be upset. The fallout over this issue was and will continue to be very controversial, but the bottom line is that a year has passed now since it occured. The only reason I am even saying anything in this situation is because I don't think any of us have a right to question how SJ felt when she wrote this post. On the same hand, I think we have to trust the school and NBOME to have made an appropriate decision. Some of you free thinkers ought to consider becoming supporters of the first ammendment between Sushi bites! (I too love Sushi by the way!!)

 

[esposo]

By definition, a mistake is an accident. This event was not an accident as we all know. I am sure I will commit many a mistake in my long career, but none will be made purposefully and none will ever be in this ballpark of stupidity. And to say that we do not have to judge one another in this profession is to be naive. Just when I think it is safe to claim I am liberal in most aspects of my thinking, some granola corduroy comes by and suprises the crap out if me with how free thinking they really are. I mean come on, at what point in a profession do we have an obligation to say that we cannot look the other way, and that we must act for the betterment of our future patients? I think major barriers such as board exams, criminal activity, and significant unethical behavior should be situations where we are NOT obligated to simply forgive someone. This dead issue though was bound to be dug up though because this was an issue that made a lot of people very upset. And everyone who knew about it had a right to be upset. The fallout over this issue was and will continue to be very controversial, but the bottom line is that a year has passed now since it occured. The only reason I am even saying anything in this situation is because I don't think any of us have a right to question how SJ felt when she wrote this post. On the same hand, I think we have to trust the school and NBOME to have made an appropriate decision. Some of you free thinkers ought to consider becoming supporters of the first ammendment between Sushi bites! (I too love Sushi by the way!!)

Excuse me but I think you are way out of line. For one thing, I don't consider myself to be very liberal at all. It's pretty unfortunate that you must label others as being liberal "sushi eaters" if they follow this train of thought. Second, labeling others "granola corduroy" and "naive" is unprofessional and obnoxious. I certainly hope you don't treat your patients or colleagues in this manner. Third, I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at this situation from a different perspective. Fourth, a mistake is not limited to being an accident. A mistake is defined as "an error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness" And what is "significant" unethical behavior? And what point does unethical behavior become significant for one to judge? Is it okay to cheat in lab but not on the boards? Is it okay to see a patient for 10 minutes just so that you can squeeze in other patient before lunch? Tell us former PA that you spent 20 minutes with each patient and never shortchanged anyone under your physician's direction. I find it funny that in this thread, only two people were directly involved in this situation and one of the people (Tool) knows the person and said he or she is a good person. I guess that meant nothing to you.

 

[PACtoDOC]

I certainly hope you don't treat your patients or colleagues in this manner. Third, I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at this situation from a different perspective. I certainly pray that any mistake you commit in the future is an accident and nothing more. I would hate for you to be judged by people like yourself.

When I decide to CHEAT on something so important in my life, may God and all other witnesses feel completely free to throw the book at me. A mistake is pushing 50mg of Phenergan IV. A breech of trust, policy, and ethics would not follow pushing 50mg of phenergan. That would have simply been poor judgement or lack of knowledge. Call me crazy, but I think if someone knowingly cheats on one of 3 exams that licenses them to treat patients, that they have committed a rather severe violation. I've got money on the fact that you are pulling for Michael right now while the jury is out too right?
By the way Esposo, the comments about the granola corduroy were not about you but about anyone who could fathom simply looking the other way under such circumstances. Luckily people with granola corduroy thinking were not in charge of this outcome in this case. And the line you talk about, that perhaps you feel was crossed, exactly where is it and which side are you on anyway? Relax a bit. This is an internet forum, not some pub where we are all sitting face to face rubbing elbows. Few if any people that I know carry on conversations here as if it is real life. That is the beauty of having an anonymous forum. No one is trying to ruin your good image, because no one knows who you really are. Lighten up, or find another hiding place.

 

[esposo]

When I decide to CHEAT on something so important in my life, may God and all other witnesses feel completely free to throw the book at me. A mistake is pushing 50mg of Phenergan IV. A breech of trust, policy, and ethics would not follow pushing 50mg of phenergan. That would have simply been poor judgement or lack of knowledge. Call me crazy, but I think if someone knowingly cheats on one of 3 exams that licenses them to treat patients, that they have committed a rather severe violation. I've got money on the fact that you are pulling for Michael right now while the jury is out too right?
By the way Esposo, the comments about the granola corduroy were not about you but about anyone who could fathom simply looking the other way under such circumstances. Luckily people with granola corduroy thinking were not in charge of this outcome in this case. And the line you talk about, that perhaps you feel was crossed, exactly where is it and which side are you on anyway? Relax a bit. This is an internet forum, not some pub where we are all sitting face to face rubbing elbows. Few if any people that I know carry on conversations here as if it is real life. That is the beauty of having an anonymous forum. No one is trying to ruin your good image, because no one knows who you really are. Lighten up, or find another hiding place.

Sigh

There you go again with the petty stereotypes (Michael Jackson case)...SophineJane would disagree with you because she felt the punishment was not harsh enough. In her opinion, people with the granola corduroy were making the decision. And a mistake is not limited to an accident. By definition, a mistake includes a lapse of judgement which this student made. I am relaxed and lending my opinion like everyone else. I don't see why you feel it's necessary to be condescending to make your point. Let me ask you this; let's say the person who cheated was a guy who you rubbed elbows with in a bar and knew him to be an otherwise very decent person. Would you still throw the book at him and condem him as a physician who will hurt his patients. Let me ask you this; how many people with their licenses removed were documented cheaters in medical school. So we are to assume that if you don't cheat in medical school, you will treat your patients with the utmost respect. I don't think we can assume a person would willingly hurt his patients because he felt the need to cheat on a written exam. That is just my opinion. If you disagree with it, respond with class instead of depicting me as a naive liberal.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Sigh

There you go again with the petty stereotypes (Michael Jackson case)...SophineJane would disagree with you because she felt the punishment was not harsh enough. In her opinion, people with the granola corduroy were making the decision. And a mistake is not limited to an accident. By definition, a mistake includes a lapse of judgement which this student made. I am relaxed and lending my opinion like everyone else. I don't see why you feel it's necessary to be condescending to make your point. Let me ask you this; let's say the person who cheated was a guy who you rubbed elbows with in a bar and knew him to be an otherwise very decent person. Would you still throw the book at him and condem him as a physician who will hurt his patients. Let me ask you this; how many people with their licenses removed were documented cheaters in medical school. So we are to assume that if you don't cheat in medical school, you will treat your patients with the utmost respect. I don't think we can assume a person would willingly hurt his patients because he felt the need to cheat on a written exam. That is just my opinion. If you disagree with it, respond with class instead of depicting me as a naive liberal.

Let me answer your question. This guys rubbed elbows with a lot of us. He was one of the most well-liked people in our class. I literally sat by him in class for 2 years. I have not even had the desire to look him in the eyes since the occured. I walk by him in the halls if I see him on rare occassion and act like I am alone. I simply cannot make small talk with someone after something like this.

Also, SJ's comments were made way before the final decision had come out. She had a right to feel frustrated like many people did.

You win Esposo, because I am not going to argue this point any longer, so cheating is okay! 👍