Special Operations Medicine

[jsnuka]

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Can anyone offer a up a working definition of what this entails?

Is anyone out there attached to a SPECOPS unit now or been attached to one in the past?

Is this ultimately different from an operational tour with any other unit?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Can anyone offer a up a working definition of what this entails?

Is anyone out there attached to a SPECOPS unit now or been attached to one in the past?

Is this ultimately different from an operational tour with any other unit?

DMOs used to be sent out with SEAL teams on forward dets, some of whom were internship classmates I crossed paths with when I was forward deployed myself.

 

[Croooz]

Which branch?

 

[jsnuka]

All branches please.

 

[Croooz]

All branches please.

To make it short. No, there is no difference in what YOU will do as a physician assigned to a Special Forces unit or regular unit. If you had special forces training the answer would be different.

 

[grumbo]

The director of Special Forces medicine (all branches) came to speak to our USUHS class a few weeks ago (I think his name was COL Farr). He implied that Air Force special forces docs don't actually do a whole lot. They stay back at the air base and wait for the PJ team to get back. He also said that navy special forces docs don't get to do a whole lot either other than monitor what the SEALs are doing (mostly training) and make sure their safe. As he put it, you get to sit on the beach and watch some cool stuff. Army is more variable. If you want (and are able), an Army doc can go through all the schools and actually be SF qualified. At a minimum, the docs have to be Flight surgery qualified, and likely airborne qualified (some docs have jumped with their teams). Dive medicine is a possibility as well as Ranger school and Q school.

From a more recent source, we had another doc come in who has been with SF units since he graduated from USUHS. He was flight surgereon, DMO, and Airborne qualified, and he thought it was funny to be getting all three special pays on top of his medical special pays. However, this guy definitely earned his money. After finishing his military schools, he was assigned to a SF unit and deployed within a month of arriving. I think he said he deployed 4-5 times in 2 years. They did a few raids a night with the doc being right there on site. He would triage the guys that they pulled out of the building and be ready for any of our casualties. What he practiced wasn't just EM medicine. Apparently breaking into homes in the middle of the night and pulling a few old guys out of their beds led to some cardiac complications on site. He also saw a lot of NGO guys who would show up because they had forgotten their meds (insulin, beta-blockers, etc.) He said he enjoyed his time in Iraq because he got to see and do so many different things. The docs attached to regular units mostly manned the hospitals and didn't see anything outside of the wire. Some people see that as a good thing, but he didn't. After that, he switched to a training site in Florida where he currently is. A funny story he had from there relates to Cubans trying to get to the US. The deal is if a cuban can make it to American soil, they have many options on being able to stay. If they are stopped on boats, we send them back. Apparently the Coast Guard stopped a boat trying to make it from Cuba. These guys are all hungry and ragged when we pick them up so we feed them before we send them back. Well, one cuban decides to sharpen his plastic spoon on the deck of the boat and stabbed himself in the gut. He figured they'd have to take him to a US hospital and he was home free. Instead, the Coast Guard called up this doc and they flew him out in a helicopter, lowered him to the deck, and he patched this guy up and sent the guy on his merry way.

That's not necessarily a common tour for a SF doc so here's another perspective. I had a chance to visit the 10th SF group at Ft. Carson and spent a day following around an MSC officer. He was saying that most of the SF battallion surgeons are not specially trained. They all are Flight surgeons, most were airborne qualified, and few if any had more than that. Most of what they do is cover the troop medical clinic (for SF guys and their families). They do participate in some of the training, but this is largely dependent on how much time they can get away from the clinic and how pushy the doc is. If you want to do something, it can usually be done. One of the key negatives is the deployment tempo for the entire SF community. They usually deploy for about 3-4 months at a time, but they deploy fairly often. I don't believe the doc has to be language proficient like all the other SF guys.

One final note, the Army is trying to stand up a few more SF units that will certainly call for more SF docs. When COL Farr was in charge of selecting which docs go SF and which don't, he said that he took the guys that had the training first because he could plug them right into a unit. However, there are very few docs that have all of the training so he usually had slots open that he had to fill with docs that had no military schools and he had to send them to the basic schools before he could put them in a unit. This problem will likely get worse with more units. He also said that the Marines are going to stand up a unit that will officially be under the SF community so there's an opportunity for Navy guys.

I think that's enough second hand info from me.

 

[jsnuka]

Thanx Grumbo.

So far and away, the Army has the most opportunities while the Navy/Marine Corps does not?

 

[rotatores]

At a minimum, the docs have to be Flight surgery qualified, and likely airborne qualified (some docs have jumped with their teams). Dive medicine is a possibility as well as Ranger school and Q school.

For comparison sake..."flight surgery" in the Army is a 6 wk course compared to Navy's 6 month course. Although what you speak of may be correct...an Army SF spot (Rich correct me if I'm wrong) or an Army GMO spot are few and far between whereas Navy GMO's are the norm. Now I'm not trying to compare Army and Navy...but I believe in your post you seem to be forgetting all the cool stuff that a Navy GMO, DMO or flight surgeon can do straight out of internship.

rotatores
USUHS 2006

 

[rotatores]

So far and away, the Army has the most opportunities while the Navy/Marine Corps does not?

Not exactly...depends what you're looking for.

 

[cmeshy]

A flight surgeon assigned to our team (PJ Team) out of Moody AFB, Ga I knew flew a couple of helo extraction missions (although I'm gonna guess its was a cold LZ) out of Kandahar in early to mid 2002. He did those without any of us onboard too. Not sure how this was authorized although the dude was pretty squared away and a triathalon champ. He was airborne qualified and I think logged even more hours in the back of a pavehawk than most of the operational PJs I knew.
I think the whole military structure there was still trying to get ahold on the whole scene at that point yet cause the big green machine was still moving in at that point. I imagine that docs operating out of smaller campaigns (you know, the ones not on TV) probably are given much more operational freedom since less brass is usually involved.
Can't tell you how many times I saw commanders puffing up their chests saying he's got the right men for the job and an hour has passed since the bird had gone down and they still haven't figured out who was gonna go for the extraction. Frustrating although it usually ended up being us. 😎

 

[jsnuka]

For comparison sake..."flight surgery" in the Army is a 6 wk course compared to Navy's 6 month course. Although what you speak of may be correct...an Army SF spot (Rich correct me if I'm wrong) or an Army GMO spot are few and far between whereas Navy GMO's are the norm. Now I'm not trying to compare Army and Navy...but I believe in your post you seem to be forgetting all the cool stuff that a Navy GMO, DMO or flight surgeon can do straight out of internship.

rotatores
USUHS 2006

What is the ql stuff that a Navy Flight Surgeon could do?

Are you a Navy student at USUHS now? If so, I need to talk to you before you get to bogged down with graduation stuff and the transition to your internship.

 

[grumbo]

I agree that Army Flight surgery is basically nothing. In fact, one of the main reasons that Army SF uses flight surgeons is a political move. The non-medical guys would not allow the SF slots to be designated as more than two or three specialties. If a unit was allowed to have a doc and it was designated a FP or EM slot, then a motivated peds doc couldn't get it (even if he was prior SF). So, they changed it so all SF slots are Flight surgery slots. A quick six week course and you're good to go no matter what medical specialty you are.

As far as who has more opportunities, I'm just passing on COL Farr's opinion. Navy GMO's do probably get more field time than other branches, but the question was originally about SF and I think Army has the largest SF community and it's supposed to be growing over the next 5-10 yrs.

 

[rotatores]

As far as who has more opportunities, I'm just passing on COL Farr's opinion. Navy GMO's do probably get more field time than other branches, but the question was originally about SF and I think Army has the largest SF community and it's supposed to be growing over the next 5-10 yrs.

I agree...I realized after I submitted my reply that you were talking more about SF than GMO.

Are you a Navy student at USUHS now? If so, I need to talk to you before you get to bogged down with graduation stuff and the transition to your internship.

I am a Navy student getting ready to graduate...but I'm def not the one to tell you about the details of FS...there are more experienced Navy physicians on SDN that I hope will chime in and answer your questions.

rotatores
USUHS 2006

 

[Croooz]

You guys are presenting the exception to the rule.

Yes the Army has more chances to go with Special Forces. You will be sent to SERE school 1st to see if you can hack the rest of training. What you will see are SERE, Airborne, and Ranger qualified docs. Docs are usually given permission to go thru the rest of the phases of the Q course but not the oppurtunity.

The Navy has some cool things with DMO. However I would say your chances are better with the Army if Special Forces is what you want....but can you even make it pass SERE. 🙄

 

[GMO_52]

You guys are presenting the exception to the rule.

Yes the Army has more chances to go with Special Forces. You will be sent to SERE school 1st to see if you can hack the rest of training. What you will see are SERE, Airborne, and Ranger qualified docs. Docs are usually given permission to go thru the rest of the phases of the Q course but not the oppurtunity.

The Navy has some cool things with DMO. However I would say your chances are better with the Army if Special Forces is what you want....but can you even make it past SERE. 🙄

OK, time to bust it out again...I was the door-gunner on the space shuttle.

Seriously, you're training to be a doctor. If you want to go to summer camp, fine, but don't lose sight of why we're there.

 

[grumbo]

Most people want to be docs first, but want to do something different in the military and so they go SF. These guys will do Flight Surgery and Airborne as extra qualifications.

Some people want to be SF soldiers more than doctors. These guys will do all of the courses since that's what they want to do. Being a doctor is the extra qualification for these guys.

It's your choice: Doc giving SF support or SF guy with doc skills in support.

 

[Croooz]

OK, time to bust it out again...I was the door-gunner on the space shuttle.

Seriously, you're training to be a doctor. If you want to go to summer camp, fine, but don't lose sight of why we're there.

After my 3rd tour in Nam as a member of Shadow Company I formed Operational Detachment-Delta with Col. Beckwith. I then got bored with that and formed DEVGRU, which we called SEAL Team 6 back then cuz there were only 6 of us. Then I was recruited by a a government agency to conduct clandestine operations in places I can't remember. I've won the Medal of Honor but my records are sealed. Now I'm going to go back and earn my 3 doctorate at USUHS....after I finish a combined JD/MBA/MDIV program. 🙄

 

[Croooz]

Most people want to be docs first, but want to do something different in the military and so they go SF. These guys will do Flight Surgery and Airborne as extra qualifications.

Some people want to be SF soldiers more than doctors. These guys will do all of the courses since that's what they want to do. Being a doctor is the extra qualification for these guys.

It's your choice: Doc giving SF support or SF guy with doc skills in support.

HAHAHA...right and the military is just allowing these SF docs carteblanche to all these schools. The teams can't even get their operators billets but the physician is gonna get one. One guy told you tales of awe and wonder...ONE. You will be a doc with a beret and a tab. Maybe a cool school or two but a doc at the aid station you will be.

 

[grumbo]

Actually, I probably won't do much of anything beyond run-of-the-mill Army doc stuff for one simple fact: I hate running. I just think it's interesting to see what "could" be done. This stuff is all very rare and only for a select group of people, but for people interested in it, it's nice to see what the limits can be. I know that the vast majority docs (including myself) will do only clinical things and see the field only when we get deployed. However, there is that small group of docs who will do interesting things and have cool stories to tell to bored med students.

 

[Croooz]

Actually, I probably won't do much of anything beyond run-of-the-mill Army doc stuff for one simple fact: I hate running. I just think it's interesting to see what "could" be done. This stuff is all very rare and only for a select group of people, but for people interested in it, it's nice to see what the limits can be. I know that the vast majority docs (including myself) will do only clinical things and see the field only when we get deployed. However, there is that small group of docs who will do interesting things and have cool stories to tell to bored med students.

Fair enough. 👍 It's a very, very small group.

 

[jsnuka]

Any Navy Flight Surgeons care to respond/share their experiences?

 

[hosskp1]

At this point, I am a GMO and Brigade surgeon for a regular Army unit. I love it and after I Finish residency (which I start this summer), I would like to go to the Special Operations Community. I am willing to do what it takes- Crank up the PT, go to Airborne and The Flight Surgeon course, ranger- what ever it takes. I really enjoy the operational medicine apsect of what I am doing. My program director has told me that I may get a chance to go to Flight Surgeon and Airborne during residency, but I do not know yet. At this point though- all I can do is try to meet the right people, get really fit, try and kick ass on PT and hope for the best. If I cannot get a Special operations billet- that is OK I would love to go the 82nd as a Brigade Surgeon.

 

[medivac]

I can give you one navy flight surgeons view. Navy FS do six months of training. The first half is learning how to be a FS: the aeromedical evaluations, the physiology, the paperwork, the mishap investigations. The second half is joining all the pilots and nfo's as they start their training. you go through Aviation Preflight Instruction, which is sitting in a classroom and being force fed a lot of info on engines, naviation. aerodynamics, engineering, weather, etc. After medical school, you have the study habits down, so although the material is different, the process is similar. Everyone uses the coastie gouge. You will too. While taking in all this information you are also doing the physical part as well, so learning to swim in full flight gear, passing physical challenges, doing the altititude chamber, the dunk tank, sit and spin, jumping off a perfectly good boat so that you can be hoisted into a helicopter, and being dragged behind a truck somewhere in the wilds of nowhere alabama while you have a parachute attached to you.

Most of the second half of my training, I kept wondering how exactly I managed to end up there.

After you graduate API, you go to ground school for both helos and fixed wing. My class was not able to fly helos due to budget and student limitations. The best I did was a simulation, which rocked. You learn to fly a T-34, which is a two seat single prop plane. You have a shortened curriculum, and I think I ended up doing 8 or 9 flights. It was definitely cool. The instructor pilots enjoy flying with the student docs, and their main goal is to a) get us to puke and b) show us a good time. I did a lot of aerobatics b/c I always asked if we could barrel roll just one more time.

You are then sent to a squadron. I was an unusual case as I was sent to a three year billet that was shore based. My squadron sent out dets with each carrier group, but I stayed behind. I still flew, but always mid-flight. I never was at the controls during a trap or cat off the carrier. I did log quite a few while in the back, though. I was "volunteered" for a short stint on one of the carriers to replace one of the wing surgeon, so I have spent some time at sea. I spent that time trying to schmooze onto one of the helos or ea6-b, but no joy there. I volunteered for the Katrina mission, and was the flight surgeon for all of the air support off one of the LHD's in the area. I flew crazy hours there, and did some minor medical care in air. Not as much as I wanted. Other FS buddies have done more extensive stuff, such as treating and medivac'ing vent dependent sailors and having to bag said patients during the hour long transport.

The nice thing about getting a three year billet was that the navy counts the time in FS training as payback time. I was stashed (worked as a GMO) for 6 months prior to starting FS training. So my one billet covered the rest of my payback, and as of yesterday, I am on terminal leave. I had my hail and bail, and I am done (aside from that pesky IRR).

I did not go to Iraq or Afghanistan, so I can't speak on any experiences there. Me, I had a great time. Don't regret it.

But not everyone in military medicine can say that. And I'm NOT doing reserve time, and I'm NOT staying in.

So for a paid medical school education, some flight training, postponed adulthood, and a delay in finishing my residency, it was good stuff.


Feel free to PM me with any questions.

 

[efex101]

Just one point of clarity but Special Forces is Army only although they do fall under Special Operations command. It helps to make sure you use the right term for the right folks. All others like the SEALS, Air Force PJ's, etc...fall under the Special Operations umbrella. I hear this/read this all the time and it is wrong to call a SEAL Special Forces...

 

[Croooz]

Just one point of clarity but Special Forces is Army only although they do fall under Special Operations command. It helps to make sure you use the right term for the right folks. All others like the SEALS, Air Force PJ's, etc...fall under the Special Operations umbrella. I hear this/read this all the time and it is wrong to call a SEAL Special Forces...

Boy I tell you these Mayo non-trads are somethin... 😉

 

[efex101]

He he...nah just a pet peeve of mine since hubby is SF...

 

[Croooz]

Yeah I figured that's why you posted. I remember you had posted that at opm. I didn't bother since this is more just boyish fantasies than any meaningful discussion.

 

[dtn3t]

I agree that Army Flight surgery is basically nothing. In fact, one of the main reasons that Army SF uses flight surgeons is a political move. The non-medical guys would not allow the SF slots to be designated as more than two or three specialties. If a unit was allowed to have a doc and it was designated a FP or EM slot, then a motivated peds doc couldn't get it (even if he was prior SF). So, they changed it so all SF slots are Flight surgery slots. A quick six week course and you're good to go no matter what medical specialty you are.

You're right, the Army FS course is pretty much a Gentlemen's course. I did it as my last elective for med school last year, and it was an awesome time. Now don't get me wrong, you learn a lot of stuff that is useful, but it was still a good time and I got to know a lot of very good people. And you're right in that Rocky Farr, er, COL Farr tries to get all of his spec ops docs FS qual'ed, because they can be used with the 160th SOAR. I'm not so sure if it's so the little peds doc (like me) can do spec ops (not SF) stuff, but that makes sense. And according to Farr, there are slots for any specialty, granted peds and the other low speed specialties are a lot less in number.

 

[RichL025]

Just one point of clarity but Special Forces is Army only although they do fall under Special Operations command. It helps to make sure you use the right term for the right folks. All others like the SEALS, Air Force PJ's, etc...fall under the Special Operations umbrella. I hear this/read this all the time and it is wrong to call a SEAL Special Forces...

He he...nah just a pet peeve of mine since hubby is SF...

Well, to be overly pedantic... it's not wrong to call them "special forces". It's just wrong to call them "Special Forces".

You can refer to ALL 'special operations' using the term "special forces" (not the lack of capitalization) since the international community uses the terms interchangeably. In the US military, we usually (but not always) use that term capitalized and refer specifically to those people who are graduates of the Q course, and serve in one of the active or national guard "groups".

But don't be suprised if you hear Brits or some other Europeans refer to their special operations troops as "special forces".

 

[Tiger26]

You're right, the Army FS course is pretty much a Gentlemen's course. I did it as my last elective for med school last year, and it was an awesome time. Now don't get me wrong, you learn a lot of stuff that is useful, but it was still a good time and I got to know a lot of very good people. And you're right in that Rocky Farr, er, COL Farr tries to get all of his spec ops docs FS qual'ed, because they can be used with the 160th SOAR. I'm not so sure if it's so the little peds doc (like me) can do spec ops (not SF) stuff, but that makes sense. And according to Farr, there are slots for any specialty, granted peds and the other low speed specialties are a lot less in number.

So do you have to USUHS to do the FS course as a med school elective. The reason I ask is that I'm about to get commissioned via ROTC into the guard and doing the med student to med corps program during med school starting this fall as an MS1. I would really be interested in doing the FS course if I could during fourth year.

 

[st0rmin]

So do you have to USUHS to do the FS course as a med school elective. The reason I ask is that I'm about to get commissioned via ROTC into the guard and doing the med student to med corps program during med school starting this fall as an MS1. I would really be interested in doing the FS course if I could during fourth year.

http://usasam.amedd.army.mil/_afspc/medstudentshpsp.htm

 

[Croooz]

In order not to spread any false/outdated info. The biggest caveat to being able to go thru the Q course seems to be having orders to a Special Forces Group. Once you receive the beret & tab it's more up to circumstances how much you will be able to do.

Of course if you are tabbed already and become a physician, your set but that isn't the case with 99% of those who post here.

So after all the posts I guess the OP questions were answered.....now we just have to wait another week for someone to ask this question yet again.....

 

[efex101]

Yup, I agree that most folks do use the term special forces....but from being around SF and listening to them it is still not the "correct" term....although me thinks they like it this way (folks not really knowing whom is what)...

 

[dtn3t]

So do you have to USUHS to do the FS course as a med school elective. The reason I ask is that I'm about to get commissioned via ROTC into the guard and doing the med student to med corps program during med school starting this fall as an MS1. I would really be interested in doing the FS course if I could during fourth year.

As Stormin's link above shows, you don't have to be USUHS. Last year we had a total of 6 4th years, only 2 were USUHS. Just make sure you have an ADT to use at the end of your fourth year and that you tell the powers-that-be in charge of you that you intend to go to the course so they can let you know all the paperwork involved.
Good luck with school. Hope you're living it up as much as possible right now.

 

[alpha62]

72 hours before I was due to fly home from asia, somebody came running up to me all out of breath saying " man, I'm glad I caught you, this is yours, man you musta pissed somebody off "

It was a set of orders for army FS course TDY in PCS route.

 

[jsnuka]

72 hours before I was due to fly home from asia, somebody came running up to me all out of breath saying " man, I'm glad I caught you, this is yours, man you musta pissed somebody off "

It was a set of orders for army FS course TDY in PCS route.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But is that such a bad thing though?

Did you ever intimate to your branch chief or commander that you were interested in the course?

 

[chrisjohn]

18D folks. Hey you can do that immediatly out of basic if you're an E4.

Anyway, most MD's would be shunted to jump school and then depending on unit, especially 160th, SERE. It's going to be difficult to get orders to SFAS.

SERE ain't no joke folks, or at least it wasn't for me. There's a saying that its easy for those who aren't intelligent enough to realize it's not supposed to hurt that badly.

 

[jsnuka]

Any commentary from the Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force folx? We have had a lot of commentary from the Army, and it is greatly appreciated, but what about the other branches?

Another question, de facto, wouldn't all of the flight surgeon courses have a SERE course component or are there gradations of SERE training?

 

[Croooz]

18D folks. Hey you can do that immediatly out of basic if you're an E4.

Actually you can go to SFAS straight off the streets if you're 20yr old.

 

[Croooz]

Any commentary from the Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force folx? We have had a lot of commentary from the Army, and it is greatly appreciated, but what about the other branches?

Another question, de facto, wouldn't all of the flight surgeon courses have a SERE course component or are there gradations of SERE training?

jsnuka,
I don't believe you were prior service. Here's a question for you; explain to me what the difference is between a Navy physician and Marine Corps physician? What billets are there for Marine Corps physicians with Force Recon vs Navy physicians with Force?

What exactly do you think you will do in the Special Ops as a physician? Would you like to go to all the HSLD schools? Are you expecting to be an operator or door kicker? Do you envision yourself fast roping from a blackhawk, taking a defensive perimeter, rucking to the objective, laying down suppressive fire.....????

I just can't see someone with active duty time with these kinds of questions. In another post you asked about the racial breakdown of USUHS....why would a prior service person care or not know?

I'm caling BS on your prior service time.

 

[chrisjohn]

Actually you can go to SFAS straight off the streets if you're 20yr old.

How things change. I remember an SF recruiter trying to get the E4s coming out of the 96B basic course. Had a recruiter from the 82nd as well and he got the rest of us to volunteer for jump school. We had two tabbed Rangers reclassing, taking advantage of the ultra low promotion points, grumbling about how SF was recruiting "babies."

SERE used to have three gradations of courses, don't know what the current class configuration is.

 

[Croooz]

How things change. I remember an SF recruiter trying to get the E4s coming out of the 96B basic course. Had a recruiter from the 82nd as well and he got the rest of us to volunteer for jump school. We had two tabbed Rangers reclassing, taking advantage of the ultra low promotion points, grumbling about how SF was recruiting "babies."

SERE used to have three gradations of courses, don't know what the current class configuration is.

18X is having good success. It was tried during Nam as well. National Guard has been doing it since the beginning...I think, I'm not sure about that one.

 

[LADoc00]

Why would you even want be to a spec ops doc? The whole reason is you are doing spec ops is to whack bad guys....

 

[Croooz]

Why would you even want be to a spec ops doc? The whole reason is you are doing spec ops is to whack bad guys....

The whackers need love too.

 

[jsnuka]

Crooz,

The "open" overtures of affection form you are "kind", but I am married and I figure that you are not my type.

As with anything in life, if it concerns you and you have a question about it, you ASK.

Now if you have nothing (and clearly that is the case) constructive to offer to the discussion, IGNORE it.

It would go a long way to making most folx who visit here, enjoy there time and experience.

 

[LADoc00]

jsnuka,
I don't believe you were prior service. Here's a question for you; explain to me what the difference is between a Navy physician and Marine Corps physician? What billets are there for Marine Corps physicians with Force Recon vs Navy physicians with Force?

Hmm Im not recalling any USMC branch MDs attached to 4th Force Recon Btn or anywhere in my travels thru 1st/4th MarDiv...of course I was a mindless SAW gunner (before being tossed to the land of logistics) often lost in endless chronic masturbation and thoughts killing people I had never met (of course I do this even now, but hey). Naval corpsmen yes, spec ops MDs, err no. I will say my ex-SF friends would laugh their butt off if someone compared the supposed "glory" of being a frontline Army surgeon vs. a cushy private practice MD job....but I digress.

 

[chrisjohn]

This is why I HATE military medicine threads. Everyone wants to bust balls, they're own and everyone else's.

To the OP, if you want to practice medicine while knocking down targets with your 6.8mm Rem SPC, go and enlist for the 18 series option.

Two of the best physicians I know were 18s who went to medical school after they ran out of synovial fluid.

 

[Croooz]

Crooz,

The "open" overtures of affection form you are "kind", but I am married and I figure that you are not my type.

As with anything in life, if it concerns you and you have a question about it, you ASK.

Now if you have nothing (and clearly that is the case) constructive to offer to the discussion, IGNORE it.

It would go a long way to making most folx who visit here, enjoy there time and experience.

At last count I asked you 7 questions. You have yet to answer. You believe that just because you ask nicely people should come on here and answer your lazy and thoughtless questions? Perhaps if you used that little button labeled "search" it might help to clarify your Rambo fantasies.

Married? Wow..the compassion of women never ceases to amaze me.

Now put the GI Joes and Barbie dolls away. It's time for the grownups to discuss milmed issues.

 

[chrisjohn]

Off topic but related. Baddest SF dude I ever met was gay as hell. You ever read about Sparta?

 

[Croooz]

This is why I HATE military medicine threads. Everyone wants to bust balls, they're own and everyone else's.

How is this any different than what goes on in military units?