Stay away from optometry

Discussion in 'Optometry' started by treytrey, Mar 10, 2017.

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  1. treytrey

    treytrey

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    I'm just kidding. Optometry is a jolly easy career where you get paid 150k+ right out the door. Go on kids, go ahead and become an optometrist, however many years down the line come back here and thank me :^).
     
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  3. Optogal

    Optogal 7+ Year Member

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    There is no such thing as a job one can love. A job is work. A good job is one that you enjoy doing two days a week, and tolerate 3 days a week. I really do enjoy optometry (in the sense that I can't see myself interested in doing anything else) but most days, if given the choice I'd rather just have the day off. What person in what job would prefer to not be on vacation and would rather be working? So yeah. A job is work.
     
    cally26 likes this.
  4. Opticalfuture

    Opticalfuture Opticqueen

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    I will
     
  5. Opticalfuture

    Opticalfuture Opticqueen

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    Some consider u doing what u like is really not a job maybe a hobby or career.
     
  6. Opticalfuture

    Opticalfuture Opticqueen

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    Ur being patient? I can't really tell the difference and really a dork lol. That word is funny
     
  7. treytrey

    treytrey

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    I wasn't directing that statement to you. With your poor literacy and diction I honestly doubt you will get through university with the mediocre grades required to matriculate into most optometry schools.
     
  8. KHE

    KHE Senior Member SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    Optometrist
    I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make or what is it that you think I've "walked back."

    Yes, there are people struggling in optometry as there are in every field out there including dentists, physicians, software engineers et. al. I am saying that it is not nearly as horrific as treytrey makes it out to be and you can do very well in this business fairly easily.

    I don't know if you're in Canada but there are "expanding" optical chains everywhere including here in Connecticut. I don't know what to tell you other than my experience is that all of those places merely cannibalize each other.

    As for your 21% example, to me that is more than fair. To collect $500 per day, someone would have to generate $2380 per day. In my office, our average collection per exam is $383 so an associate doctor would have see on average 6.21 exams per day or less than ONE PATIENT PER HOUR to make $500 per day. What's so unfair about that?
     
  9. Opticalfuture

    Opticalfuture Opticqueen

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    Um I'm not writing an essay so i don't expect you to be my English teacher. And second you don't know me or my grade ,so keep making up lies to make your self feel better since optometry failed you greatly and you can't stop blaming your self so go ahead and feel bad
     
  10. Optogal

    Optogal 7+ Year Member

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    Can you characterize the billing of an average patient that you bill for $383? What are the payables and their amounts that end up adding to $383?

    Does this average value include patients who don't buy from your dispensary? (does that happen?)

    Where are all these people getting the money to spend $383 at your establishment? Is it out of pocket or do these people have insurance coverage?
     
  11. treytrey

    treytrey

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    It's common courtesy to talk in proper, structured English on forums such as these. Your posts are an eyesore and you're nothing but a naive child who lacks the intelligence that there are opinions other than their own.
     
  12. treytrey

    treytrey

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    He's doing a disservice by lying to virtually everybody who has viewed this thread.
    383 per patient
    o I'm laughin
     
  13. Opticalfuture

    Opticalfuture Opticqueen

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    I choose to write like this because I can and its called a "post" for you to put whatever you want on it and ,so I don't any problem with it
     
  14. Optogal

    Optogal 7+ Year Member

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    What you walked back was your initial statement to ignore everything that treytrey has said (i.e. everything he said save one was wrong) to denying that you were even trying to refute his major premise (that dentisty > optometry). That was one of two major premises of his. You first said it (and the other point, and everything he said but one thing) was wrong, then you now say you weren't trying to say it was wrong.
     
  15. Optogal

    Optogal 7+ Year Member

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    No. You have to take his claims at face value as long as they are conceivable. Just like "we" have accepted your claims.
     
  16. Opticalfuture

    Opticalfuture Opticqueen

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    Who said that optometry will be easy? Who said that any health care career is easy? It's not you have to work for it and you'll get the outcome and I'm pretty sure optometry is not that bad with expenses that you ate exaggerating compared to others. And who will thank you.. exactly??
     
  17. treytrey

    treytrey

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    My points in summation:

    >optometrists get paid way, way less than their counterparts in medical school, pharmacy school and dental school despite undergoing the same sort of schooling as them
    >tuition for optometry school is absurd given the average salaries for most graduating OD's
    >while tuition is also absurd for med/pharm/dental, at the very least, their salaries have also gone up to match the increases in tuition
    >optometry has a bleak future, more and more schools are being opened up (with absolutely garbage standards, a 2.8 with a 290 oat can get you into these new schools typically)
    >oversupply of OD's as a result of said new schools
    >less prestige than the other professions despite similar schooling

    Don't get me wrong, optometry is good, but it's only good for 45+ year olds that are already well established, those that were able to take full benefit of the markets of decades past. Nowadays, optometry is a horrible field to go into.

    Again, the same sentiments and messages that I'm passing on now have been passed along by others here several years ago. I ignored those messages and remained optimistic. Now that I'm done with it all, I wanted to leave behind my opinion - I certainly don't regret going into optometry, I don't particularly dislike the profession and had an amazing time in school. It's just that when the other options of med/dental/pharm are available to you, settling for optometry is like drinking water from your septic tank rather than your tap.

    In all honesty I wish ODWire was public so that prospective students can see the reality of the career.
     
  18. Optogal

    Optogal 7+ Year Member

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    treytrey. can you tell us where u are in life/career? r u that jason guy?
     
  19. Optogal

    Optogal 7+ Year Member

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    Can you point out the titles of some of the relevant threads so I and others can have a look?
     
  20. treytrey

    treytrey

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    Graduated two years ago. Working in the GTA. My story is the same for my colleagues who now work in boston, chicago, ottawa and the GTA. I'm not that jason guy.

    I wish I listened to my gut instinct back then to stay away from optometry in all honesty.
     
  21. Optogal

    Optogal 7+ Year Member

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    Did u graduate from a US school?
     
  22. treytrey

    treytrey

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    NECO
     
  23. KHE

    KHE Senior Member SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    Optometrist
    That is the total amount of money brought into the office for any and all sources....exams, glasses, contacts, medical visits, post op exams, cash pay, nursing home visits, insurance receipts etc. etc. divided by the total number of comprehensive exams done so yes, that includes people who do not purchase eye wear from us.

    Some patients might spend $40 in a year. Some might spend $1000. $383 is the average.

    I would invite anyone on this forum who wishes to stop by the office and I'll gladly give you a tour and show you how it works.
     
    catsomgcats likes this.
  24. KHE

    KHE Senior Member SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    Optometrist
    Well Jesus H. Christ.....I assume by GTA you mean Greater Toronto Area. You're lamenting that you and your colleagues are struggling yet you've chose to practice in highly saturated areas. WHY?

    Your response will almost certainly be that you don't want to move to Timmins or Flin Flon. You don't have to. I grew up in Niagara Falls. I know there's opportunity there as well as St. Catharines, less than one hour from the "GTA."

    Colleagues working in Boston, Chicago are going to have trouble because those places are loaded with medical schools AND they each have an optometry school. Again....why are they insisting on practicing in super saturated areas and then lamenting that they're struggling? Maybe....juuuust maybe they should consider relocating to some place else. I hear Connecticut is a pretty good place to practice. :) Perhaps some of your "brilliantly minded people" wouldn't mind moving an hour and a half down the road.
     
  25. Optogal

    Optogal 7+ Year Member

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    I would say I largely agree with this. I would also say that successful multi-doctor private practices are vastly out-numbered by private/chain opticals and lesser-successful OD practices. For every big-money generating multi doc practice, there are several other smaller fewer-doc practices that aren't doing nearly as well.

    If you're saying docs in these $$$doc offices are doing well, and better (money and lifestyle) than the average doc in a box I would agree with that. But those are the "good" optometry jobs that I referred to as existing. There are many "bad" ones and they are being filled because those candidates aren't somehow getting into these good jobs.
     
  26. treytrey

    treytrey

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    I am honestly baffled by your general rhetoric. Just because you 'lucked out' and now own/co-own your own practise doesn't mean that it's the norm for 90%+ of graduates nowadays.

    I can easily counteract your points here. You claim that I decided to work in a saturated area. Well here's the thing, rural areas pay as much if not less than urban areas. Suburbia is where the money (the small amount of money extra lol) is at. I've looked for job openings in rural areas, jobs that most OD's don't want, they pay 10-15k max at most, nothing significant.
     
  27. KHE

    KHE Senior Member SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    The premise of his that I was trying to refute was not that dentistry > optometry but that choosing optometry will doom you to making 87k a year in a corporate hell hole while massively in debt as you waste away in a trash can career.
     
  28. KHE

    KHE Senior Member SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    Optometrist
    Again....I'm not sure what to tell you. There are physicians and dentists and pharmacists being taken advantage of by predatory employers. I had some bad experiences when I was first out of school. You just keep moving on up.
     
  29. KHE

    KHE Senior Member SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    What "luck?" I made this all happen. Nothing was given to me. In fact, I still have a year to go on the payments!

    If suburban areas pay less, I'll bet the cost of living is a hell of a lot less too!

    You're complaining that there wasn't a successful practice generating a multi six figure income waiting for you to step into, wrapped up in a pretty pink bow upon graduation. Well here's the deal......it wasn't waiting for me either. I didn't buy it until I was seven years out. You have to go out and find it and make it happen! I had over six figures in student loans too. Stop complaining, put on your big boy pants and figure it out!
     
  30. Optogal

    Optogal 7+ Year Member

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    I don't know about your numbers. As presented, they obviously look reasonable. However, I interned in a private practice where the guy gave a flat rate of 30% of all billing, and the associate there told me that was the worst arrangement ever. The more common arrangement here is 50/50 (50% of exam fees, 50% of the profit on a dispense), and the associate said 50/50 was way better than a flat 30%. Given that 21% is horrifically worse than 30%, you can just imagine what that person would think of that arrangement. And I know the fyiDoc doing the interview had to spend quite a bit of time explaining the number 21 to his interviewees because of how low it sounded.

    I worked a brief time in a 50/50 arrangement (again, by all accounts a better arrangement than 30%, and certainly 21%) and I felt I was hardly getting paid at all. I'd have like 8-10 patients where I'd only walk out with like $180 or so. Maybe your dispense ratio is really good or something, but in the absence of that, 21% is crap.
     
  31. treytrey

    treytrey

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    Again you're missing the point ENTIRELY.

    People graduating from pharmacy, dentistry, medicine ALL have 4 years of schooling as well, they graduate and are guaranteed 6 figure income if not more, that with benefits, paid vacation etc.

    Compare that with optometry, optometry is in a very sad state.

    There are literally graduates from fields like software engineering making more base salary + bonus with better work hours/environment at the age of 22 than optometrists.

    Hell there are co-op students from Waterloo making more money through their engineering co-ops than some optometrists. Is that not pitiful to you?
     
  32. KHE

    KHE Senior Member SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    Is that 50% of ALL professional fees or just "exam" fees? ie: Does it include OCT, visual fields, red eye visits, contact lens fittings etc. etc?

    I can't speak for how it goes in Canada as I have never practiced there. I don't know what the profitability on a pair of spectacles would be. In general, here in the USA, COGS is usually around 35% so a $200 pair of classes would yield a gross profit of $130. Is that normally how it goes up there?
     
  33. treytrey

    treytrey

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    :soexcited:
    Good money that doctorate is doing for us eh.
     
  34. KHE

    KHE Senior Member SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    I don't know what to tell you.

    Go back to school and be a pharmacist. My sister is a pharmacist and I can't tell you how many nights and weekends she works until 10:00 or even midnight dealing with drug seekers and secondary gainers. Go enjoy that six figure income and many weeks of paid vacation.

    Go back to UW and be a software engineer and worry constantly that some middle manager is going to pull you into their office on a Friday afternoon to tell you that the company you work for is "downsizing," "rightsizing" or "going in a different direction."
    There were two former software engineers in my class at SUNY and one who had a PhD in biochemistry who got fed up working for big pharma.
     
  35. treytrey

    treytrey

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    Nah I'm good. Once my debts are paid off I'll just work part time, don't have much expenses anyhow.

    My whole point was that in terms of schooling, salary does not keep up with other professions.
     
  36. Optogal

    Optogal 7+ Year Member

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    To be fair, there were some mitigating factors to my low "salary". I was the only associate, and the first associate that doc ever hired. She was involved in every aspect of her practice, including scheduling. I know shortly after I started, she started to book "families" of patients with me, and people she suspected weren't going to buy glasses. So a typical Saturday for me would be a family of 4 (mother and 3 kids), a family of 3 (a mother and 2 kids) and a 20-something male. Kids were all there for routine exams, so none got glasses. Maybe 1/3 of the adults would get something (again, she had a lot of repeat patients and she was booking me with the non-dispensers), so things weren't worth it at all. Going out alone and doing straight up eye exams at a side by side was far more profitable for me. I've done well since then. And yes - you start work in various places and if you're good - your situation does start improving over time.
     
  37. Meeehai

    Meeehai

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    Medical residency sucks though.
     
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  38. treytrey

    treytrey

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    Of course, medical school is the exception as it involves 2 years of residency. Regardless you get paid alright in residency (50-60k). After residency you're set. A family doctor working part time 3 days a week will make more than most optometrists working 5-6 days a week.
     
  39. Meeehai

    Meeehai

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    You mean 4+ years for most specialties. 50k, but working 80 hour weeks.

    I'm just saying, at least those guys are putting in work.
     
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  40. Stirling

    Stirling

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    It's funny that traytray looks at the super negative aspects of optometry but focuses on the super positive aspects of other professions, proof that these rants are emotionally and not rationally based.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
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  41. schmoob

    schmoob SDN Moderator 2+ Year Member

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    Let's all take a deep breath, no need to get so worked up. We can have conversations but lets not attack folks we disagree with.

    My thoughts on the topic: as far as the "grass is greener" argument, it goes on in every professional forum here. Seriously, go browse the dental forums. Graduates are coming out with $400K-$500K in debt.
    Yes, half a million. These are not outliers either, it's rather common in fact. Very similar conversations there about corporate work as well. Starting salaries of ~$120K are very common. So TBH, if you're making $87K with $200K in student loans (I am highballing here), then your debt to income ratio is significantly better.

    Your entire argument is kind of invalidated with this statement, dude. The fact that this is an option, or even on your radar is a sign that its better than you realize. You wont see too many dental grads 2 years out talking like this. $500K is a significant pressure; the standard repayment plan is not an option for many because they literally can't afford it. Instead they go to IBR or PAYE, and that Grad PLUS interest continues to increase the principle.
     
  42. Opticalfuture

    Opticalfuture Opticqueen

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    That's right
    Haha is exactly this thread just took a whole new turn
     
  43. pharmd2017yasssss

    pharmd2017yasssss

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    Pharmacy and dentistry are just as bad. Dentist tuition averages 500k. If you add in undergrad and residency ( lots of specialties have to pay tuition for several years) that's almost a million dollars in debt. Almost impossible to start private practice because theres a dentist on every block. Pharmacy is just as bad, cannot start private practice as insurance is so bad, you lose money on many prescription and working retail at cvs amd walgreens is soul draining. Dont forget that they keep opening dental and pharm schools every year. They are popping up like daisies. The only medical profession thats good anymore is medical school...
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  44. Opticalfuture

    Opticalfuture Opticqueen

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    Yeah I agree and optometry is better
     
  45. SnozzBerry

    SnozzBerry 2+ Year Member

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    Do you even know what you're talking about ? Average debt is at $250k right now according to ADA... there have been way more new pharmacy schools and actually more new medical schools have opened up than dental schools recently. With even more medical schools in the pipeline. Yes pharmacy is screwed. Just check the pharmacy boards for that. No optometry is not "better". You think that because you are trying to justify yourself going into optometry. That's fine. Better is very subjective. To me dentistry was a better fit, but I understand that's not the case for everyone obviously. But at the end of the day dentists go to school for the same amount of time and work less hours for considerable more money. Yes tuition is higher, but I'm graduating with $250k this year. As are most of my class. No I'm not from Texas. Not too far from either pharm or optometry numbers I've seen.
     
  46. Meeehai

    Meeehai

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    What's your opinion on this thread?

    Going to Dental School Will Almost Surely Wreck Your Finances
     
  47. pharmd2017yasssss

    pharmd2017yasssss

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    I did not say that to justify that optometry is better. I am not even in the optometry profession. Nowhere do I even mention optometry. I wrote that post because someone mentioned that they should have done dentistry or pharmacy and I was trying to clarify some things. And dentistry is no way only 250k in debt. I have friends who are 400+ in debt because of all the extra dental equipment fees. Yes dentists make more than pharmacists and optometrist, but they also take on a significantly larger debt and the profession is not as glamorous as it once was. It is saturated although nowhere to the degree of pharmacy. Private practice is where the money is at and good luck getting a loan to open a private practice with thay crushing debt and a dentist in every corner.

    Here is a link to usc dentistry school tuition and estimated cost. It costs 250k just for 2 years.

    Cost of Attendance - Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry of USC
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  48. SnozzBerry

    SnozzBerry 2+ Year Member

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    It's very sensationalist. Yes debt can be a problem with dental school tuition. The OP of that thread is just trying to make the point that at some level of debt dentistry is not worth it. I don't disagree with that. But as long as you are able to keep your debt at a more manageable level (IMO under $300k) dentistry is still a good gig. State schools, living frugally, scholarships, NHSC, etc all help. I'm a D4 coming out with $250k in debt, I personally talked with the OP and he was optimistic about my situation. I am too. He is just trying to warn the people willing to attend the NYUs, USCs, etc without thinking about the massive amount of loans.
     
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  49. SnozzBerry

    SnozzBerry 2+ Year Member

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    Sorry my comments about optometry were directed to @Opticalfuture. I was too lazy to link her or make a different post.

    Educational debt : GoDental

    Average debt class of 2016 is $261k according to the ADEA.
    Do you not understand what an average is? Linking the cost of the second most expensive dental school is pointless. Yes USC is very expensive. Yes it's insane. But most dental students go to a much cheaper school. Like I said I'm a graduating 4th year dental student and I'm coming out with $250k. No secret formula for me. Went to a state school and lived modestly. It's the same for most of my classmates. Saturation in dentistry IMO is overplayed on this forum. But yes it's an issue in certain locales. You could say the same thing for most of medicine and healthcare in general.
     
  50. treytrey

    treytrey

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    I've been reading through other posts from long ago, reminiscing on a time when I was more naive.

    Found an intriguing post where KHE says that he never broke 6 figures working independently, and that it was this way for him for a long time. And here he is lying to everybody in this thread, looking through his other posts all he does is lie lie lie, perhaps he's not a liar but rather a disillusioned individual.
     
  51. Opticalfuture

    Opticalfuture Opticqueen

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    Yeah I agree and optometry is better

    Well ur doom dentistry for money
    Well good for u I hop ur happy being a den I will be an optometrist one day opening my own Practice while being happy it's not all about the money if so there is law school
     

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