Step 1 P/F: Decision

[HappEness]

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WAIT so clarification question, did residency programs have any say in this decision to make Step 1 pass fail?

I am asking because if programs didn't support this decision to make Step 1 pass fail, they are likely not going to blindly reject people JUST because they don't go to a name brand med school or JUST because they go to a DO school

After all, programs want good residents, and not all good residents come from top schools as seen in current residency programs. If you look up residency programs, many times the chief resident is from a state medical school

 

[deleted957830]

This just doesn’t seem to be a good way of thinking about things. There are students who do mediocre in college and the MCAT, pull themselves up, and then rock the Step 1, aways, medical school in general. There are many who did amazing in undergrad and the MCAT, got into a Top school, and didn’t do so amazing... It’s definitely not predestined as you describe

I never said anything like that. I know for a fact that the highest step 1 in my school’s history came from a 27 mcat.
I also know several upperclassmen who raised step 2 by 30+ points.

But once everyone is actually IN medical school, the top dawgs become apparent. At least at mine they did. And it’s not just due to abilities, it also has to do with passions. Someone going to psych isn’t gunning for the same scores and research as someone wanting ortho, generally speaking. And someone who is 35 and married is not as driven as someone who is 21, as the former probably is content with anything and the latter most likely has their foot slammed on the gas (again, generally speaking).

And I know it’s hard for people to hear, but each human being is capped at a certain level. Not purely by intelligence, but also by upbringing, SES status, life circumstances, test taking ability, etc. Someone has to graduate last, and someone has to graduate first. You could take away the need for sleep from the student who graduated last and they will most likely never achieve what it takes to reach first.

 

[Splenda88]

I’d say they’re pretty damn similar. I took the IM shelf 6 weeks after my Step 1 and it basically felt like Step 1.5. Step 1 is “diagnosis this -> what is the pathophys?”, Step 2 is “diagnose this -> what is the next best step?” If hemolytic anemia causes a decrease in haptoglobin, can you guess what the next best step would be if you suspect hemolytic anemia? It’s pretty obvious. Plus, the correlation between the two tests is 0.55. Fairly strong considering Step 2 is taken at different times of the year for different students.

Maybe you are correct. I felt like I did not even study for step2 and still had a similar percentile...

 

[longhaul3]

WAIT so clarification question, did residency programs have any say in this decision to make Step 1 pass fail?

I am asking because if programs didn't support this decision to make Step 1 pass fail, they are likely not going to blindly reject people JUST because they don't go to a name brand med school or JUST because they go to a DO school

After all, programs want good residents, and not all good residents come from top schools as seen in current residency programs. If you look up residency programs, many times the chief resident is from a state medical school

Residents at top programs who came from state schools were almost definitely high Step 1 scorers. That's the main point people are making on this thread. They weren't just plucked from the roster of a state med school because the PD had a hunch they were a good fit.

Obviously all programs want good residents, but it's very hard to figure out who will be a good resident. Away rotations help and will continue to increase in importance in specialties in which they are standard. Maybe they will start to become more popular in medicine, peds, anesthesia, etc.

The number of med school grads vs. residency spots will remain about the same (i.e. won't change just because of this decision). If you look at the residents at low-tier programs, most will be from lower-tier schools. Each stellar applicant can only take up one residency spot at the end of the day.

 

[Kardio]

But who does well is not predestined as you describe. There are students who do mediocre in college and the MCAT, pull themselves up, and then rock the Step 1, aways, medical school in general. There are many who did amazing in undergrad and the MCAT, got into a Top school, and didn’t do so amazing..

I don’t think @tulip81 was necessarily referring to school prestige. What was meant, I believe, is that some students are going to be stronger than others. Even if we delete one measuring stick, the top dawgs will make themselves apparent in other ways.

 

[Mass Effect]

Still hysterical...

 

[efle]

3. Dentistry has created a separate aptitude/admission exam called the ADAT to compare candidates for residencies while OMFS decided to adopt the NBME CBSE exam and use it as a filter similar to how medical residencies relied on Step 1 (or used to).

The same might happen with the most competitive specialties in medicine, who knows. All I know from experience is that this route just adds on additional stress, expenses, and time commitment to an already rigorous curriculum.

Just some thoughts to consider 😀

Interesting, adds more to my suspicion something else is in the pipeline.

When they made the Pass/Fail change, they allow an application cycle to occur where some students had a score and some students didn't? Or did they list only Pass for everyone?

 

[HappEness]

Residents at top programs who came from state schools were almost definitely high Step 1 scorers. That's the main point people are making on this thread. They weren't just plucked from the roster of a state med school because the PD had a hunch they were a good fit.

Obviously all programs want good residents, but it's very hard to figure out who will be a good resident. Away rotations help and will continue to increase in importance in specialties in which they are standard. Maybe they will start to become more popular in medicine, peds, anesthesia, etc.

The number of med school grads vs. residency spots will remain about the same (i.e. won't change just because of this decision). If you look at the residents at low-tier programs, most will be from lower-tier schools. Each stellar applicant can only take up one residency spot at the end of the day.

Oh I wasn't talking about top residency programs

The specialty topic matters to me personally more than the residency name. I was just saying, for example, plastic surgery residency spots at the University of Louisville aren't going to be filled by all ivy league med school graduates all of a sudden...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

they are likely not going to blindly reject people JUST because they don't go to a name brand med school or JUST because they go to a DO school

This already happens anyway lol, this just makes it even worse.

 

[HappEness]

This already happens anyway lol, this just makes it even worse.

Are you just referring to top residency programs? Or state programs as well?

 

[efle]

Residents at top programs who came from state schools were almost definitely high Step 1 scorers. That's the main point people are making on this thread. They weren't just plucked from the roster of a state med school because the PD had a hunch they were a good fit.

Obviously all programs want good residents, but it's very hard to figure out who will be a good resident. Away rotations help and will continue to increase in importance in specialties in which they are standard. Maybe they will start to become more popular in medicine, peds, anesthesia, etc.

The number of med school grads vs. residency spots will remain about the same (i.e. won't change just because of this decision). If you look at the residents at low-tier programs, most will be from lower-tier schools. Each stellar applicant can only take up one residency spot at the end of the day.

There were state school graduates at top programs in the past (2000s, 1990s, and earlier) you know. That didn't suddenly arise as a brand new phenomenon when Step Mania kicked into gear. I swear everyone has collective amnesia for anything prior to 2010. It's not like 90% of HMS was matching surgical subspecialties and nobody from U Mass was doing so. There have always been neurosurgeons and orthopods and ENTs and ophthos and urologists and plastics and dermies that didn't get their MD at the top couple dozen med schools.

 

[Mass Effect]

My question is: with what will schools fill up the time that was previously used for "dedicated"?

 

[efle]

My question is: with what will schools fill up the time that was previously used as "dedicated"?

...8-10 weeks of time off for Step 2 CK, would be the immediate answer I think

 

[Mass Effect]

...8-10 weeks of time off for Step 2 CK, would be the immediate answer I think

Yeah, they'll likely begin clerkships early and then use that 8-10 weeks after third year. I think it'll be a logistical nightmare, but let's see what happens.

 

[pinguadelie]

Boards to be Pass/Fail, what does this mean for residency programs?

lose out to the hot blonde with big boobs. :thumbup: arent d-students already used to that from day 1 of d-school?:rolleyes:

forums.studentdoctor.net

Wow, I'm surprised that this hasn't been posted already. I just got an email today from Dean Park (UCLA). He was forwarding the following email from the Joint Commission of Dental Examinations. It may come as a relief to some of you, and it may help sway your decisions on which school to attend. Cutting to the chase of the email: the boards change to P/F has been postponed to 2012. But for those hoping that it might get pushed back again - I wouldn't count on it. They seem pretty set that they aren't going to budge from the 2012 date. So with no further ado...

To: Dean and Academic Dean


From: Ron J. Seeley, D.D.S.

Chair, Joint Commission on National Dental Examinations


Subject: Pass/Fail Policy




At its annual meeting, the Joint Commission on National Dental Examinations (JCNDE) revisited its 2008 decision to move all National Board Dental and Dental Hygiene Examinations to a Pass/Fail system beginning in January of 2010. The JCNDE did this because of expressed concern by some communities of interest regarding the decision itself and also the timing of implementation.

The JCNDE has been monitoring these inquiries closely and had a very good discussion about all the ramifications of the 2008 decision. In the end, the JCNDE at their 2009 meeting reaffirmed its decision to implement Pass/Fail reporting, but extended the implementation date to January of 2012. This was done for two very sensible reasons. 1) Some state licensing boards may need more time to open practice acts and make rules changes in order for their regulations to remain aligned with the JCNDE decision, and 2) ADEAs development of an alternative instrument for the evaluation and ranking of students for such things as graduate education program admission purposes warrants this much additional lead time to complete necessary field tests and validation studies before full-scale implementation of an alternative instrument.

In reviewing the decision, the JCNDE carefully considered expressed and unexpressed concerns from all known communities of interest, and its decision to extend the date of implementation was made for very specific logistical reasons. In making this decision, the JCNDE was concerned that some communities of interest would misinterpret its intentions. The decision to extend the date of implementation should not be interpreted as reflecting any change of intention or construed as opening the way for future reconsideration. The JCNDEs decision to proceed with implementation of Pass/Fail reporting was unanimously reaffirmed, and communities of interest are advised that these Commissioners will not revisit the date certain of January 1, 2012.

On behalf of the entire Commission I want to thank all parties who expressed concern or support and in any way communicated with the JCNDE relative to this important issue. The JCNDE will move forward with the other business it must necessarily conduct.

So it seems like the dental equivalent of the NBME basically extended the deadline for "a Pass/Fail system beginning in January of 2010" to 2012. Sound familiar? I think the same thing will probably happen with the NBME now, with all of this outrage.

 

[efle]

Yeah, they'll likely begin clerkships early and then use that 8-10 weeks after third year. I think it'll be a logistical nightmare, but let's see what happens.

I kinda like that one school's idea about taking Step 2 CK first. I haven't taken it yet, but I've taken the Medicine shelf and all the associated UWorld Step 2 questions, and it really does feel like an entirely different animal from the First Aid Trivia Contest.

 

[efle]

Boards to be Pass/Fail, what does this mean for residency programs?

lose out to the hot blonde with big boobs. :thumbup: arent d-students already used to that from day 1 of d-school?:rolleyes:

forums.studentdoctor.net

So it seems like the dental equivalent of the NBME basically extended the deadline for "a Pass/Fail system beginning in January of 2010" to 2012. Sound familiar? I think the same thing will probably happen with the NBME now, with all of this outrage.

Someone PLEASE find me a dentist who knows whether their scored exam was still reported as scored or as "Pass"

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Are you just referring to top residency programs? Or state programs as well?

All of them. You included DO students in your statement and DO's get filtered from every tier of program.

 

[ak427]

Boards to be Pass/Fail, what does this mean for residency programs?

lose out to the hot blonde with big boobs. :thumbup: arent d-students already used to that from day 1 of d-school?:rolleyes:

forums.studentdoctor.net

So it seems like the dental equivalent of the NBME basically extended the deadline for "a Pass/Fail system beginning in January of 2010" to 2012. Sound familiar? I think the same thing will probably happen with the NBME now, with all of this outrage.

this seems very likely to me. There’s no way schools are set to implement these changes to their curriculum for the class that’s about to matriculate this fall. So many pre-clinical curriculums are built around Step 1 now. It’ll get pushed back a year or two. Majority of current students won’t be affected. And schools, residencies, and future students have time to adjust

 

[efle]

All of them. You included DO students in your statement and DO's get filtered from every tier of program.

Well, depends on specialty. It's not like your typical state IM, EM, gas, peds, etc all 100% refuse to consider DOs. The old SDN adage that going DO signs away most of your chances for the 250 average specialties is where this change is going to have most of it's impact

 

[Mad Jack]

The massive problem is that it should have been changed AFTER a plan forward was already in place. The way this has occurred is very haphazard and will significantly impact multiple years worth of medical students in a very negative way.


No not really.

How so? The plan moving forward is P/F, there needs to be nothing else. Rumors of this have been swirling for some time, so people in PD spots and elsewhere have been pondering how they'd approach the change already. And what "negative" consequences do you foresee?

 

[7331poas]

How so? The plan moving forward is P/F, there needs to be nothing else. Rumors of this have been swirling for some time, so people in PD spots and elsewhere have been pondering how they'd approach the change already. And what "negative" consequences do you foresee?

There are 20 pages in this thread describing the numerous negative consequences of this action.

 

[A Ryan Seacrest Type]

Shelf scores would be nice if there was some way of putting that info out to programs. Some type of cumulative running shelf exam GPA if you will.

Clerkship grades usually take into account shelf scores. Shelf scores would be little value if you "kill it" but you get bad evals and end up with a pass in the clerkship anyways. If shelf scores would be of value then Residencies would consider them separately than clerkship grades by now. All in all, its not a good idea

 

[libertyyne]

Clerkship grades usually take into account shelf scores. Shelf scores would be little value if you "kill it" but you get bad evals and end up with a pass in the clerkship anyways. If shelf scores would be of value then Residencies would consider them separately than clerkship grades by now. All in all, its not a good idea

Not all schools standardize what it takes to honor a clerkship. Some put 100% weight in the shelf, others put zero, and yet others dont even have clerkship exams. Forcing people to disclose this data, and allowing PD's to screen based on it would probably be beneficial to both applicant and PD considering it is an objective metric with good resolving power.

 

[A Ryan Seacrest Type]

Not all schools standardize what it takes to honor a clerkship. Some put 100% weight in the shelf, others put zero, and yet others dont even have clerkship exams.

Yeah, some even are p/f clinicals. Regardless, including "a shelf exam gpa" is not the move. Too much variability that currently exist on how its used. Most likely and logical outcome (as its probably been stated) will be programs will use Step2Ck. AOA. research, and school name to picks its people, which only differs form the satus quo in that ck replaces step 1

 

[libertyyne]

Yeah, some even are p/f clinicals. Regardless, including "a shelf exam gpa" is not the move. Too much variability that currently exist on how its used. Most likely and logical outcome (as its probably been stated) will be programs will use Step2Ck. AOA. research, and school name to picks its people, which only differs form the satus quo in that ck replaces step 1

I am not disputing that this is what will happen. I am saying that step 2 CK will also go p/f within the next decade. Then residencies will be stuck with nothing. Specialtiy specific subject exams are a great alternative. They address some of the underlying criticisims of step 1 as they have smaller standard errors, are more specific to the specialty you are applying to and are spread over multiple test dates, rather than one day to determine your future.

 

[sargon2123]

Well, depends on specialty. It's not like your typical state IM, EM, gas, peds, etc all 100% refuse to consider DOs. The old SDN adage that going DO signs away most of your chances for the 250 average specialties is where this change is going to have most of it's impact

Just be honest with us for a sec, how much did your class celebrate and throw down upon the annoucement of this big decision lol?

 

[A Ryan Seacrest Type]

I am not disputing that this is what will happen. I am saying that step 2 CK will also go p/f within the next decade. Then residencies will be stuck with nothing. Specialtiy specific subject exams are a great alternative. They address some of the underlying criticisims of step 1 as they have smaller standard errors, are more specific to the specialty you are applying to and are spread over multiple test dates, rather than one day to determine your future.

specialty specific exams do exist, theyre the ones residents take to certify in their specialty lol. Specialty specific exams for medical students don't make sense cause we don't know squat. Also let me take all these little specialty specific nbme exams and then deicide that I don't like the field I am interested in, what am I screwed now cause I didn't take the other fields specialty exams? Even the current shelf exams that exist are not always the best representation of the filed theyre suppose to represent. Also I'm not wasting energy thinking about if step2 ck will go p/f within the decade. All in all, still think its a bad idea

 

[libertyyne]

specialty specific exams do exist, theyre the ones residents take to certify in their specialty lol. Specialty specific exams for medical students don't make sense cause we don't know squat. Also let me take all these little specialty specific nbme exams and then deicide that I don't like the field I am interested in, what am I screwed now cause I didn't take the other fields specialty exams? Even the current shelf exams that exist are not always the best representation of the filed theyre suppose to represent. Also I'm not wasting energy thinking about if step2 ck will go p/f within the decade. All in all, still think its a bad idea

You can laugh all you want, But is the logical conclusion to step 1 going pass fail and there being 1000 derm applicants for 100 poisitions. That and exponential increase of junk publishing. The shelf exams are better representative than Step 2 CK . How many ent questions does step 2 have or derm, or uro, or neurosurgical? The current shelves are better than anything else being representative.

 

[efle]

Just be honest with us for a sec, how much did your class celebrate and throw down upon the annoucement of this big decision lol?

It's not affecting us, so not much. Had some fun discussions with people about it though. There seems to be this prevailing myth that only low scorers with no match prospects are happy about this change, but there's plenty of people here (who are gonna match great) that are happy to hear UFAPS won't have to take priority over our clinician professors/small groups/life in general any more.

In fact the only people I know who are angry about this, are a couple people that drank the kool aid about scoring higher = being a better resident or physician. Though really, they probably didn't even believe that. I think they just liked feeling superior to 90%+ of other medical students on "the only thing that matters." Must be a big blow to the ego to hear directly from the authors of the exam they studied so hard for, that it's fundamentally flawed to think in this fashion and they can no longer trust us (or PDs) to even know the scores any longer.

 

[Ho0v-man]

wow. This site has basically shut down due to this decision lol. I’m putting my money on the nbme just creating a new exam to milk more money.

While I think this is a disaster without a plan in place to help stratify applicants, maaaan I’m jealous of people with p/f unranked preclinical and p/f step 1. Those two years are gonna be cush. Without any pressure to do well, you could just d!(k around until the week before your exams and just watch sketchy and pathoma and burn through whatever old study guides you could find. What a joke lol.

Also, am I the only one getting pimped routinely on step 1 stuff? I was asked to explain the biochem behind why high-fructose corn syrup can cause gout last week by an internist. Basically had to recite wound healing from pathoma a few before that for a general surgeon (that sucked). It’s gonna be rough for med students who never learned that stuff to begin with.

Not my pig, not my farm. Glad I’m almost out of this mess.

 

[Mad Jack]

There are 20 pages in this thread describing the numerous negative consequences of this action.

None of which I agree with. It's all a bunch of nonsense and whining

 

[Thesimplelifeofamyloid]

It's not affecting us, so not much. Had some fun discussions with people about it though. There seems to be this prevailing myth that only low scorers with no match prospects are happy about this change, but there's plenty of people here (who are gonna match great) that are happy to hear UFAPS won't have to take priority over our clinician professors/small groups/life in general any more.

In fact the only people I know who are angry about this, are a couple people that drank the kool aid about scoring higher = being a better resident or physician. Though really, they probably didn't even believe that. I think they just liked feeling superior to 90%+ of other medical students on "the only thing that matters." Must be a big blow to the ego to hear directly from the authors of the exam they studied so hard for, that it's fundamentally flawed to think in this fashion and they can no longer trust us (or PDs) to even know the scores any longer.

You could say this literally about any standardized test. Standardized testing was never perfect. All tests go through changes. The MCAT was changed heavily, and will be changed in the future likely.

 

[Alkaidius]

Specialty exams make sense if you make them basically Uber shelves. Want to go Derm? Well, prepare for an exam absolutely loaded with immunology and skin pathology. First versions will be a toss up and no one will do well until a First Aid for Derm comes out, but it’s on a curve anyway. It’d require WAY more questions per year, but if they charge each individual specialty exam the same price as the USMLE I’m sure they’ll manage.... All of your exams would be privy to every program you apply to that way they can potentially sift out people that are trying exams for the hell of it or as backups. It would put more weight behind your choice which tells PDs a lot, as well.

 

[workaholic007]

wow. This site has basically shut down due to this decision lol. I’m putting my money on the nbme just creating a new exam to milk more money.

While I think this is a disaster without a plan in place to help stratify applicants, maaaan I’m jealous of people with p/f unranked preclinical and p/f step 1. Those two years are gonna be cush. Without any pressure to do well, you could just d!(k around until the week before your exams and just watch sketchy and pathoma and burn through whatever old study guides you could find. What a joke lol.

Also, am I the only one getting pimped routinely on step 1 stuff? I was asked to explain the biochem behind why high-fructose corn syrup can cause gout last week by an internist. Basically had to recite wound healing from pathoma a few before that for a general surgeon (that sucked). It’s gonna be rough for med students who never learned that stuff to begin with.

Not my pig, not my farm. Glad I’m almost out of this mess.

why does high fructose corn syrup cause gout. just more nucleic acids? maybe they should make this step exam pass fail lol

 

[7331poas]

Specialty exams make sense if you make them basically Uber shelves. Want to go Derm? Well, prepare for an exam absolutely loaded with immunology and skin pathology. First versions will be a toss up and no one will do well until a First Aid for Derm comes out, but it’s on a curve anyway. It’d require WAY more questions per year, but if they charge each individual specialty exam the same price as the USMLE I’m sure they’ll manage.... All of your exams would be privy to every program you apply to that way they can potentially sift out people that are trying exams for the hell of it or as backups. It would put more weight behind your choice which tells PDs a lot, as well.

sounds like a great idea, we should absolutely implement those changes before we eliminate step 1...

 

[libertyyne]

Just be honest with us for a sec, how much did your class celebrate and throw down upon the annoucement of this big decision lol?

It's not affecting us, so not much. Had some fun discussions with people about it though. There seems to be this prevailing myth that only low scorers with no match prospects are happy about this change, but there's plenty of people here (who are gonna match great) that are happy to hear UFAPS won't have to take priority over our clinician professors/small groups/life in general any more.

In fact the only people I know who are angry about this, are a couple people that drank the kool aid about scoring higher = being a better resident or physician. Though really, they probably didn't even believe that. I think they just liked feeling superior to 90%+ of other medical students on "the only thing that matters." Must be a big blow to the ego to hear directly from the authors of the exam they studied so hard for, that it's fundamentally flawed to think in this fashion and they can no longer trust us (or PDs) to even know the scores any longer.

 

[deleted859689]

Even if USMLE goes P/F... whatever. I'm still grinding. Back to doing my cards for today.

I'll throw out this argument - if USMLE goes pass fail, and I do away rotations at places I want to do my residency in, they are going to pimp me hard. If I can answer better than those who just studied enough to P step 1, then I think I'll be in good shape when interviews come around.

 

[efle]

You could say this literally about any standardized test. Standardized testing was never perfect. All tests go through changes. The MCAT was changed heavily, and will be changed in the future likely.

Nah, dude. There's no precedent for this at all. The Dental exam that got mentioned earlier? Median study time for that was 150 hours, literally less than the MCAT. There hasn't been any kind of phenomenon like this before, where thousands of smart people spend years competing to distinguish themselves on one exam (with months of time taken off to dedicate full-time cramming)...that turns out to be COMPLETELY inappropriate for that purpose. The amount of ego that was tied up in many high-scorers' scores on this one, is a singular level of absurdity.

 

[efle]

Even if USMLE goes P/F... whatever. I'm still grinding. Back to doing my cards for today.

I'll throw out this argument - if USMLE goes pass fail, and I do away rotations at places I want to do my residency in, they are going to pimp me hard. If I can answer better than those who just studied enough to P step 1, then I think I'll be in good shape when interviews come around.

Dude, I hate to break it to you, but when you're rotating in [Insert competitive surgical subspecialty] they absolutely aren't going to be pimping you on [insert most of what you flashcarded for Step 1]

 

[workaholic007]

Even if USMLE goes P/F... whatever. I'm still grinding. Back to doing my cards for today.

I'll throw out this argument - if USMLE goes pass fail, and I do away rotations at places I want to do my residency in, they are going to pimp me hard. If I can answer better than those who just studied enough to P step 1, then I think I'll be in good shape when interviews come around.

doing ur cards? bro u didnt even enter med school bsaed on ur signature ...class of 2024? application cycle 2019-2020.

 

[BBBallIsLife]

Been kinda lurking on this post, but not really seen this mentioned....

But if all goes as predicted (I agree with what the DDS student completing the MD part of this training) is that now, premeds may lean toward choosing a school of prestige and devalue comfort. Why force yourself to be in a place that doesn't feel right for 3/4 years? Well, P/F USMLE might be why.

I would much rather enjoy the medical experience to avoid burnout and decrease stress levels by choosing where I see myself fitting in best. For some, they may already love the environment at a top MD program, which is totally great! But now, it seems like a lot of comfort may be sacrificed for better potential.

I have also seen the benefits, and there's lots to say both ways. However, since we aren't four years ahead, can't quite say what will happen for sure...

 

[strappysandals]

doing ur cards? bro u didnt even enter med school bsaed on ur signature ...class of 2024? application cycle 2019-2020.

LMAO

 

[Sleepingdoc]

You could really argue both ways... Now the international students would basically be shunned from residency and second thing is that you dont have to stress too much on the minutiae that you may never see clinically ever in your life... .

 

[Alkaidius]

doing ur cards? bro u didnt even enter med school bsaed on ur signature ...class of 2024? application cycle 2019-2020.

Exhibit A for why this happened.

 

[libertyyne]

Dude, I hate to break it to you, but when you're rotating in [Insert competitive surgical subspecialty] they absolutely aren't going to be pimping you on [insert most of what you flashcarded for Step 1]

Got pimped today on basic and surgical anatomy. That stuff was nowhere to be found except on my anatomy head and neck unit in m1.

 

[deleted859689]

doing ur cards? bro u didnt even enter med school bsaed on ur signature ...class of 2024? application cycle 2019-2020.

Better watch out. I'm coming for your spot

 

[efle]

Been kinda lurking on this post, but not really seen this mentioned....

But if all goes as predicted (I agree with what the DDS student completing the MD part of this training) is that now, premeds may lean toward choosing a school of prestige and devalue comfort. Why force yourself to be in a place that doesn't feel right for 3/4 years? Well, P/F USMLE might be why.

I would much rather enjoy the medical experience to avoid burnout and decrease stress levels by choosing where I see myself fitting in best. For some, they may already love the environment at a top MD program, which is totally great! But now, it seems like a lot of comfort may be sacrificed for better potential.

I have also seen the benefits, and there's lots to say both ways. However, since we aren't four years ahead, can't quite say what will happen for sure...

But, the top ranking schools have always led the pack on useful wellness initiatives (like Pass/Fail grading, or not ranking in MSPE, or inflating clinical grades, or shortening preclinical to give you more time for research/electives/aways/vacation). Judging by what I hear from an old friend at the nearby U of State campus, their experience having grades and ranks and harsh Honors cutoffs and long preclinical is harder to match well and less enjoyable.

 

[A Ryan Seacrest Type]

You can laugh all you want, But is the logical conclusion to step 1 going pass fail and there being 1000 derm applicants for 100 poisitions. That and exponential increase of junk publishing. The shelf exams are better representative than Step 2 CK . How many ent questions does step 2 have or derm, or uro, or neurosurgical? The current shelves are better than anything else being representative.

You do realize that Step2 ck is like one mega shelf? Lol That’s why it’s taken after clinicals cause the shelf exams help prepare you for step 2. Many school take step 1 after clinicals in their third year already, around the time when people take step 2ck, and you don’t see a 1000 derm applicants in these schools now do you? But again I want to emphasize that specialty specific exams is a bad idea cause med students don’t know diddly squat and we also change our minds often. Regardless, this convo is moot, you have your opinion and I have mine.


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[Thesimplelifeofamyloid]

Nah, dude. There's no precedent for this at all. The Dental exam that got mentioned earlier? Median study time for that was 150 hours, literally less than the MCAT. There hasn't been any kind of phenomenon like this before, where thousands of smart people spend years competing to distinguish themselves on one exam (with months of time taken off to dedicate full-time cramming)...that turns out to be COMPLETELY inappropriate for that purpose. The amount of ego that was tied up in many high-scorers' scores on this one, is a singular level of absurdity.

Med school was always difficult. It didn't suddenly get difficult with step. Before Step 1 mania, it was class rank, AOA etc. Step 1 mania came about because the 3rd party resources became almost sure-fire ways to well on the exam, in they just explained things better than 90% of faculty. Make no mistake, this it an attempt to re-justify the high costs of medical tuition. Schools knew that their pre-curriculum were slowly becoming outdated, clunky and irrelevant in the modern era, and instead of looking at their flaws, they changed the game to buy them some time.