Strike @ Kaiser

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Yikes! I think it was their nurses that were striking a few weeks ago and their admin staff just before that. Suddenly I'm a bit concerned that I picked them for health coverage during open enrollment.
 
I heard about it earlier this week....and I completely agree with it. I hope the strike allows for all of the over-worked and under-paid MH staff to get additional support, money, etc. I'm generally not pro-union, but in some cases they are needed.

In hearing about it from some former colleagues of mine who are there still, it sounds like the issue is more to do with staffing and ensuring more adequate access for patients. Pay/benefits seems less of an issue, as kaiser staff gets paid more than just about any place I've heard of (salary starts at around 110k, annual raises to around 150k, plus pension and 6 weeks vaca). When I was there, people were already quite overworked though, to the detriment of the patients. I'm with you..completely agree with it and hope it turns out well.
 
In hearing about it from some former colleagues of mine who are there still, it sounds like the issue is more to do with staffing and ensuring more adequate access for patients. Pay/benefits seems less of an issue, as kaiser staff gets paid more than just about any place I've heard of (salary starts at around 110k, annual raises to around 150k, plus pension and 6 weeks vaca). When I was there, people were already quite overworked though, to the detriment of the patients. I'm with you..completely agree with it and hope it turns out well.

That's what I'd heard as well, although I believe someone might've mentioned that Kaiser was going to pull some benefits (e.g., pensions) that folks already had, which probably didn't do them any favors.
 
In hearing about it from some former colleagues of mine who are there still, it sounds like the issue is more to do with staffing and ensuring more adequate access for patients.

I heard that too, though my comments were more about having caseloads of 200-300+ pts and "only" getting paid $110k or similar. Yes it isn' a bad salary, but it is wholly insufficient for that caseload (let alone probably too many pts). There are jobs out there that allow for significant overtime, which isn't my idea of fun, but some are able to provide good care during those extended hours.
 
I heard that too, though my comments were more about having caseloads of 200-300+ pts and "only" getting paid $110k or similar. Yes it isn' a bad salary, but it is wholly insufficient for that caseload (let alone probably too many pts). There are jobs out there that allow for significant overtime, which isn't my idea of fun, but some are able to provide good care during those extended hours.

I could be misreading or misunderstanding your point here, in which case I apologize, but was confused by the reference to overtime that you referenced here. When I worked for Kaiser, and I'm 99% sure it's still the case, we weren't permitted to take OT. You worked a fixed 40 hr contained scheduled (usually 4 10-hour shifts per week), so your starting 110k salary was for 40 hours, no more and no less. Completely concur about your second point, that it is insufficient for the demands placed on clinicians (believe me, I worked a HARD 40 hours/week, making me feel underpaid even at around 125k), which is why I left for full-time PP. Also I didn't realize that they were threatening to roll back benefits, in which case I understand even more the urge to strike. Good luck to them.
 
It would seem to be contrary to many licensing board mental health workers ethics going on strike and interviewing on the news. Isn't KP a private company? How in the world do they have a union. I guess only in California...uh!

Greed is the motivator under the guise of patient rights and using Obama Care as the reason behind the problem.

All of the people on Strike are an embarrassment to the Behavioral Sciences field and they need to be fired and replaced with competently qualified mental health staff.

Hospital workers can't strike. Who is taking care of their patients? Normally there is a no strike clause in most people contracts and I would be terminated immediately with cause at my job. The California Psychology Board may be busy restricting or suspending psychologists licenses for engaging in a strike. What kind of message does this give to the public?
 
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It would seem to be contrary to many licensing board mental health workers ethics going on strike and interviewing on the news. Isn't KP a private company? How in the world do they have a union. I guess only in California...uh!

Greed is the motivator under the guise of patient rights and using Obama Care as the reason behind the problem.

All of the people on Strike are an embarrassment to the Behavioral Sciences field and they need to be fired and replaced with competently qualified mental health staff.

Hospital workers can't strike. Who is taking care of their patients? Normally there is a no strike clause in most people contracts and I would be terminated immediately with cause at my job. The California Psychology Board may be busy restricting or suspending psychologists licenses for engaging in a strike. What kind of message does this give to the public?

I have wondered the same thing when the nurses go on strike. They don't do it often, but the fact that they do it at all makes me very concerned for patients that need to be seen that day. I have heard that sometimes the union will give the hospitals corporate office a heads up about strikes so that they can decide if they want to contact a staffing agency to get temps for a few days. That's better than nothing, but not great.
 
Teachers went on a strike in one of the school districts I was working at in Texas many years ago the first week of school in front of the special education building.

A large number of teachers including special education staff were terminated and they hired a large number of teachers including school psychologist the first month of school. KP needs to fire all of these people on strike and replace them. Patients do have rights but psychologists have ethical boundaries and should not be striking for patient, the patients have advocacy and mediation rights and they could choose a different service provider.
 
I work for Kaiser. In my opinion, the people who went on strike were the ones who were brave enough to do so. The ones who were willing to risk their livelihood because they care about patients.

The people I know who went on strike did so out of principle. They did it because they see the suffering that walks through the door. They see their patients, but they know how powerless they are to help, because there is simply too much need and not enough staffing to meet that need. It is heartbreaking to see people suffer and know that they will not be able to get the help that they need. It is painful. And this is why the strike happens.

Sure, patients can advocate for themselves. Sometimes. And they can switch providers. Sometimes. And sometimes it is too little and too late. For example, right now, Kaiser has 4 lawsuits against it because of suicide due to denied and delayed access. Patient advocacy only goes so far. Kaiser claims these lawsuits have no merit. And Kaiser has a big legal team. And Kaiser will probably win the cases. But every person who works in the mental health field at Kaiser knows that access and ongoing treatment at Kaiser is woefully inadequate.

Every single week, behavioral health patients at Kaiser lose hope because they cannot get timely appointments at Kaiser. It is injustice of the highest order.

It would be, in my opinion, be more of a violation of the ethics code for Kaiser psychologists to stand idly by, while watching even more patients deteriorate and decline, than to continue work-as-usual in a system that acts with reckless disregard for patient well-being.

The notion of firing the striking clinicians and replacing them with Kaiser drones who might willingly allow Kaiser to continue to perpetrate gross injustice on people who we, as mental health clinicians, are supposed to defend -- this, to me, borders on complicity.

Regarding what happened to the patients who needed care that week: Some Kaiser clinicians that I know who went on strike -- with forgone pay -- made themselves available to the clinic for emergencies. Others who work in crisis circumstances still worked -- because they knew their patients needed them -- even though they wholeheartedly supported the rationale behind the strike -- a need for greater staffing. Many psychiatrists (who are shareholders in Kaiser and therefore not part of the union) picked up the slack, temporarily. Non-urgent patients had their psychotherapy appointments rescheduled, and yes, this is unfortunate. But what is more unfortunate is the way in which Kaiser continues to short-staff its psychology departments, rendering the long-term outlook for so many of the patients who come through the doors seeking and needing help incredibly bleak, week after week after week.

As mental health providers, this fight is, in many ways, a fight for the right for behavioral health care to be legitimately treated on parity with other medical concerns. Right now, Kaiser continues to discount the importance of behavioral health and treats behavioral health as a second-class concern -- setting a damning and dangerous precedent for behavioral health care across the rest of the nation writ large and for us all.
 
This scenario has many twist and compromising factors. Mental Health staff shortages is commonly the norm in the Behavioral Sciences field, not only KP. KP models is similar with most Private Psychiatric Hospitals except KP is the largest. I work at a private psychiatric Hospital and we have staff positions that go unfilled and therapist transitions frequently. We have a large number of interns. Two MD psychiatrist and 3 ANP.

Our inpatient facility 115 beds is always full and our outpatient program is busy with most therapist seeing 7-8 patients per day. We may have 2 or more no shows per day so 9-10 patients could be scheduled. Due to psychiatrist/ANP shortage there is a freeze on new medication appointments.

Our problem is hiring adequate staff and keeping staff. Patients can go to different OP facilities but we are the only inpatient facility in the area. Many patients have their meds prescribed by their PCP.

This is not a KP problem but a national problem except KP being the largest the lawyers have targeted them for class action lawsuits. Sadly with suicide attempts many factors come into play and it does not seem fair to place the blame on the service providers or their employer.
 
This scenario has many twist and compromising factors. Mental Health staff shortages is commonly the norm in the Behavioral Sciences field, not only KP. KP models is similar with most Private Psychiatric Hospitals except KP is the largest. I work at a private psychiatric Hospital and we have staff positions that go unfilled and therapist transitions frequently. We have a large number of interns. Two MD psychiatrist and 3 ANP.

Our inpatient facility 115 beds is always full and our outpatient program is busy with most therapist seeing 7-8 patients per day. We may have 2 or more no shows per day so 9-10 patients could be scheduled. Due to psychiatrist/ANP shortage there is a freeze on new medication appointments.

Our problem is hiring adequate staff and keeping staff. Patients can go to different OP facilities but we are the only inpatient facility in the area. Many patients have their meds prescribed by their PCP.

This is not a KP problem but a national problem except KP being the largest the lawyers have targeted them for class action lawsuits. Sadly with suicide attempts many factors come into play and it does not seem fair to place the blame on the service providers or their employer.

Maybe if you and your MH staff stood up for yourselves, you wouldnt have the above mentioned problems.
 
We do... We get paid well and I work for a great Hospital. It is a staff shortage not an employer not caring about staff or patients. We advertise and have trainees in all parts of the Hospital. KP also has ongoing advertisements and pays staff well. Mental Health as well as General Health both have ongoing staffing issues. We have been full staff only once in the last three years.

The staff shortage is not new. The Doctor shortage is long term. A new DO program is starting up in 2016 to address the Doctor shortage with 160 new students being admitted their first year but it will be another 6-10 years before these doctors graduate.
 
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All of the people on Strike are an embarrassment to the Behavioral Sciences field and they need to be fired and replaced with competently qualified mental health staff.

Good quote for solidarity there. I guess we should all just buck up and take one for the team when we see patients mistreated and mismanaged. The CEOs and Board know best, after all. It's not like they are a for profit entity worried about their bottom line. Let's just forget about the fact that they've been fined millions for violations like patient dumping and other egregious problems.

How much do you actually know about the KP situation? Calling people an embarrassment when you are grossly uninformed or misinformed about the situation is the real embarrassment.
 
We do... We get paid well and I work for a great Hospital. It is a staff shortage not an employer not caring about staff or patients. We advertise and have trainees in all parts of the Hospital. KP also has ongoing advertisements and pays staff well. Mental Health as well as General Health both have ongoing staffing issues. We have been full staff only once in the last three years.

The staff shortage is not new. The Doctor shortage is long term. A new DO program is starting up in 2016 to address the Doctor shortage with 160 new students being admitted their first year but it will be another 6-10 years before these doctors graduate.

Uh...high turnover, overbooking slots, access problems to the point of "freezing" new appts, and chronic understaffing are NOT the sign of a "great hospital."
 
From what I've read, KP has chronic problems with staffing, delaying care (for wks/mons), understaffing, etc. That environment can make it very difficult (some would argue impossible) to provide adequate care. Having staff strike for a wk brings attention to the problem, but NOT having the strike lets the inadequate treatment continue.

I have little love for ANY union, but in this case it looks like they are acting in the pt's and clinicians' best interest. As for choosing KP, they are the largest provider AND per the gov't inquiries and fines...one of the worst.

ps. I was surprised the psychologists could join a union, as every state where I've worked we have been barred from doing so. I'm not sure if it is an auxiliary staff v. full-time faculty distinction or maybe The People's Republuc of CA happens to allow it?
 
Uh...high turnover, overbooking slots, access problems to the point of "freezing" new appts, and chronic understaffing are NOT the sign of a "great hospital."

So are you saying the VA and most Federal, State, and Private Mental Health programs are poor quality? Many well respected Children's Hospitals have six months before you can get an appointment, and I am not exaggerating.
 
It would seem to be contrary to many licensing board mental health workers ethics going on strike and interviewing on the news. Isn't KP a private company? How in the world do they have a union. I guess only in California...uh!

Greed is the motivator under the guise of patient rights and using Obama Care as the reason behind the problem.

All of the people on Strike are an embarrassment to the Behavioral Sciences field and they need to be fired and replaced with competently qualified mental health staff.

Hospital workers can't strike. Who is taking care of their patients? Normally there is a no strike clause in most people contracts and I would be terminated immediately with cause at my job. The California Psychology Board may be busy restricting or suspending psychologists licenses for engaging in a strike. What kind of message does this give to the public?
From what I read, the patients were apprised of the time off of work. I can't believe that you can so blithely assign greed as the motivator. Where is your evidence for that? It sounds to me like there was a long history of concerns and that the implementation of ACA increased the patient load and there has been no increased staffing. This is purported to lead to a decrease in effective services. That is what the strikers are saying and it sounds like a reasonable assertion. I have yet to see any shred of evidence to the contrary. You could possibly be right in your assertion that it is about greed and not about patient care, but a psychologist should have evidence before making such claims.
 
So are you saying the VA and most Federal, State, and Private Mental Health programs are poor quality? Many well respected Children's Hospitals have six months before you can get an appointment, and I am not exaggerating.


I think the error there is assuming that because these issues are common, they are not the mark of poor services. The VA has certainly been under fire recently for similar approaches to other services.

I agree with other commenters that we have an ethical obligation to both do no harm and to help. Continuing to be silent amidst an agency that is set up to neglect patients goes against these principles. I myself did a practicum at a KP at 2 days per week for a year, and had a case load of more than 200 patients at a time. And other clinicians were actually envious that I was able to see these patients more than they could see their own. KP has the money and ability to increase services and staff, but chooses not to. I do my job with my patient's health in mind, and their health is better attended to by attempting systemic changes than continuing to silently provide unethical and deficient treatment.
 
I've heard the 200 patients figure before, but I still can't believe it. 200? That's just... wow.
 
Uh... We need to be concerned and patient centered abiding by ethical standards but going on Strike is not the appropriated method and my 2 cents is "striking" borders on being unethical. There are mediation and more appropriate ways of being change agents than going on strike.
 
There are mediation and more appropriate ways of being change agents than going on strike.
That has been tried; IIRC for at least the past two years…with no results. What I find most offensive is that the people being targeted are some of the most vulnerable in the medical system and aren't able to adequately advocate for themselves.
 
My understanding is that a number of alternatives (mediation, etc.) have been underway for the better part of a decade with minimal progress and that this really has been employed as a last resort.

KP does seem a particularly egregious offender, but I do think our healthcare model as a whole is the problem. KP is just a symptom. We can and should bandage it up, but the framework itself is what is untenable and unethical.
 
On the KP website they currently have 172 Behavioral Health job openings for Psychologist, LCSW, pre/post doc, ect... Most are in California, Hawaii, and Colorado.

It seems that KP is too big and this is similar to many Federal jobs in they have a monopoly and corruption happens with unrestricted power.
 
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You can have all of the "openings" that you want….I care about who actually gets hired. The VA is guilty of this, posting positions but not being able to actually hire new staff. Looking at some of the stats cited in the gov'ts review and other data (albeit shared by one side) are pretty damning for not providing adequate services.

If KP really wanted to attract more talent, they could offer higher salaries, more attractive caseloads, signing bonuses (for signing on for 2-3yrs), etc. If they offered a 30% premium for their psychologists, I bet they could get more people, though then they'd have to pay them. I actually looked at a KP position ~4 yrs ago, but I was warned about the workload requirements (i.e. sweatshop approach to MH). The money wasn't worth what they wanted, let alone the cost of living in California. They can't have it both ways….or wait…they can. I think that is how they have sustained record breaking profits.
 
So are you saying the VA and most Federal, State, and Private Mental Health programs are poor quality? Many well respected Children's Hospitals have six months before you can get an appointment, and I am not exaggerating.

If said VA, Fed, or state facilities posses the issues you identified as a "great hospital" then, YES! lol

I am at a loss to understand your identification of multiple staffing, resource, and access problems in one post, and in the very next post, label it as a "great hospital." Obviously, its not. It has many serious problems...by your own admission.
 
If said VA, Fed, or state facilities posses the issues you identified as a "great hospital" then, YES! lol

I am at a loss to understand your identification of multiple staffing, resource, and access problems in one post, and in the very next post, label it as a "great hospital." Obviously, its not. It has many serious problems...by your own admission.

Welcome to the real world...even highly respected places have these problem and the more rural areas they are magnified.
 
Welcome to the real world...even highly respected places have these problem and the more rural areas they are magnified.

So...1.) these problems makes your facility a "great hospital"...and 2.) psychologists should make no attempts to challenge them?

Your posts on this thread have made zero sense thus far.
 
So...1.) these problems makes your facility a "great hospital"...and 2.) psychologists should make no attempts to challenge them?

Your posts on this thread have made zero sense thus far.
 
Erg is right, you've thrown out a lot of nonsense allegations with nothing to back them up. Calling these professionals unethical, nonsense about a monopoly, etc. As with previous arguments, just a lot of misinformation.
 
Erg is right, you've thrown out a lot of nonsense allegations with nothing to back them up. Calling these professionals unethical, nonsense about a monopoly, etc. As with previous arguments, just a lot of misinformation.
 
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