Study says college isn’t for everyone

[veyep]

TOTALLY DISAGREE, HOW DO YOU KNOW IF COLLEGE IS FOR YOU OR NOT ESPECIALLY THAT EARLY!? I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD TRY IT AND SEE IF IT IS FOR THEM OR NOT AND LEARN FROM A TRIAL AND ERROR PROCESS AND NOT BY DECIDING IN MIDDLE SCHOOL. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

A new Harvard study (PDF) says American students need to begin to decide in middle school whether they want to prepare for four-year college and then a career. The alternative approach, the study says, is to begin vocational training for a job earlier.
The study is inspired by European systems of education, and its authors say too many students are graduating high school without middle-level skills that could help them land well-paying jobs as electricians, for example. About a third of jobs in the next decade won't require a four-year college education, the study says, and this program would help American kids prepare for them.
The study may raise the specter of "tracking"--the process by which minority and poor kids are pushed into vocational programs at their schools and held to lower expectations. EdWeek's Catherine Gewertz notes that the authors seem to anticipate that concern, writing that students should be able to change their minds about whether they want to go to college or try a different career at any time. But the report also argues that "the coursetaking requirements for entry into the most demanding four-year colleges should not be imposed on students seeking careers with fewer academic requirements."
Gewertz writes that one of the study's co-authors, Robert Schwartz, previously championed a "college for all" approach to K-12 education.

Higher ed policy analyst Sandy Baum told the AP the idea is to enhance opportunities for everyone. "What we'd like is a system where people of all backgrounds could choose to be plumbers or to be philosophers," Baum added. "Those options are not open. But we certainly need plumbers so it's wrong to think we should be nervous about directing people in that route."
President Obama has said he wants the United States to lead the world in college graduation rates again

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[rxlea]

You don't need a study to show that college isn't for everyone. Some people are in college that shouldn't be. Not everyone is college material and it could be for many reasons. It's just the way of things.

 

[veyep]

You don't need a study to show that college isn't for everyone. Some people are in college that shouldn't be. Not everyone is college material and it could be for many reasons. It's just the way of things.

But how would you know that, until you try it? I guess that's the bigger question. Right college might not be for everyone, but how do you know without trying...Do you really know during middle school?

 

[rxlea]

Oh that's right... I forgot we live in the era where every child is a genius and should be in honors. I realize this is a contentious topic, but let me ask you this... Do you think every person in the nation has the learning capacity for college? And why waste thousands of dollars to "try" something that 1) you may not even want to do but are pressured to do and 2) may or may not give you an advantage in the job market? The truth is, we NEED people who don't go to college. Those people do the jobs that "college educated" people don't do. They are just as essential as doctors, pharmacists, accountants, engineers, etc. I am 100% in support of government funded vocational programs for people who just want to be mechanics or welders or pastry chefs. It doesn't mean they are any less smart, it just means they might not want to spend four years learning various subjects to get a degree in something.

The problem is, is that people have lost sight of the true meaning of "higher education". It has become strictly about getting a better job/higher salary. But, in reality, higher education is also meant to broaden ones knowledge about the world. College is supposed to encourage life long learning/pursuit of knowledge. Not everyone is into that. It doesn't mean they are idiots or anything. It just means they are the type of people who want to find a job, stick to it, earn a living, and have a certain lifestyle. That is perfectly OK, IMO. You don't NEED college for that necessarily.

 

[DrYoda]

I've never thought college is for everyone. I do however think that everyone should try to gain a valuable skill set (which many people do not gain in college btw). The world does need trade-people ect.

 

[rxlea]

I've never thought college is for everyone. I do however think that everyone should try to gain a valuable skill set (which many people do not gain in college btw). The world does need trade-people ect.

Exactly. And you don't necessarily learn those skill sets at a 4 year institution.

 

[delano2000]

I've never thought college is for everyone. I do however think that everyone should try to gain a valuable skill set (which many people do not gain in college btw). The world does need trade-people ect.

Completely agree. My brother tried going to college but ended up dropping out the first semester because it wasn't for him. He is more of the trade-workman kinda person.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Who conducted this study? Please tell me they have a PhD in Sociology or of the sort

 

[UNMorBUST]

I can tell you that I knew college was not for me at the age of 18. I Barely graduated High School because I lost all motivation for school. If I went I knew I would Fail out. It took me almost 4 years before I felt like I was ready for college. So I disagree with your statement of "How do you know until you try?"

 

[veyep]

I can tell you that I knew college was not for me at the age of 18. I Barely graduated High School because I lost all motivation for school. If I went I knew I would Fail out. It took me almost 4 years before I felt like I was ready for college. So I disagree with your statement of "How do you know until you try?"

I agree with you it might take some time for you to be ready, but don't profile them as "not meant for college" and find them another job... It's more of a terminology that i have an issue with... Let's explore options and if you are ready or you think you are go to college.

 

[Farmacist2011]

Why pay thousands and thousands and thousands to go to college when a library card is free?

 

[Medwell]

It's absolutely true that college isn't for everybody. Unfortunately, we live in a society (especially in the USA) where people assume something's wrong with you if you don't go. Our whole lives, we've been conditioned to go to college for the sole purpose of "getting a good job," complete with threats that if we don't get a degree, we're pretty much destined to a menial and a rough life. The result: not only do we have a bunch of college graduates sitting around working mindless jobs, but we have also decreased the value of a college degree in general. Many kids who truly belong in the trades, military, etc. force themselves through higher education, only to find themselves right back where they started.

Now, don't get me wrong – those who seek knowledge/employment in the fields of medicine, engineering, law, banking, teaching – university is where you need to be. My issue lies with students who enroll into higher education with no real plans, choosing "easy" programs and essentially coasting through four-year stints of hangin' out and partyin' on mommy and daddy's dime. These are the ones who should not be in college.

 

[Greggy Weggy]

President Obama has said he wants the United States to lead the world in college graduation rates again

Instead of increasing graduation rates, I would rather increase the quality of college education. I'm sick of seeing these ridiculous degrees that are practically useless for society, and students graduating with a 2.0 GPA

5 engineering majors > 300 Art history and philosophy majors

 

[dudecoolname]

We need to do whatever the hell Finland is doing

They've gotten #1 in math and science multiple times

 

[IndustryPharmD]

- High schools don't teach anything anymore
- Grade inflation and ego-stroking both pre- and in college
- Easy access to student loan money

These three factors push students into colleges. However, having people graduate from college if there are not enough jobs that require college education to absorb them is just atrocious. Society does not need however many thousands of psychologist/sociologists/English majors are being pumped out every year. And if they have to work as waiters/retail clerks, where is the benefit of their degree? Sure, we can have 100% of people get college degrees - but then where will janitors, welders, cooks and McDonalds employees come from? And how happy will college-educated people be with those jobs, having spent several years and a lot of money to obtain their useless degrees?

I would suggest making high schools meaningful again instead of pushing everyone to college. 🙄 I have seen a study that the fastest growing programs in colleges are remedial because (I can't remember exact number, but it's around 30%) of students who matriculate need remedial English and math. 🙄

 

[Passion4Sci]

We need to do whatever the hell Finland is doing

They've gotten #1 in math and science multiple times

Population, Finland:

5,338,995

Population, Los Angeles, California:

9,862,049

 

[delano2000]

Population, Finland:

5,338,995

Population, Los Angeles, California:

9,862,049

I am guessing that's for the metro and not just the city.

 

[Passion4Sci]

I am guessing that's for the metro and not just the city.

It's just the general population according to the Census.


The Point
*whoosh*
_________

Your head.

 

[297point1]

We need to do whatever the hell Finland is doing

They've gotten #1 in math and science multiple times

Finland also has one of the highest suicide rates in the world...it's not all lutefisk and ski-jumping over there.

 

[Electrode]

We need to do whatever the hell Finland is doing

They've gotten #1 in math and science multiple times

What's the point if they can't use it to come up with some sort of cooler matrix system?

Also, adding more pages to statistics - how useful has that been to Finland...?

 

[delano2000]

It's just the general population according to the Census.


The Point
*whoosh*
_________

Your head.

😡

 

[WhiteSnows]

It is a good think to live your life without spending 30 years in school just to work. I have spent almost 25 years of my life just to be in school. How I wish to have a career that make my living without wasting half of my life in school. Get it?

 

[Passion4Sci]

How do u know that college isn't for you? Instinct, pure instinct. You see, we only need high school to learn the basics. Most courses in first year college are just second levels or in-depth discussions on high school subjects. We DO NOT NEED in-depth discussion on subjects we do not need in the job we want to land on. Furthermore, we do not need greenboard, projector or paper discussions plainly; we NEED HANDS-ON, experience is the key.

I dunno about you, but high school was a complete joke in my city and was more about how many girls you could have sex with and whether you were going to be Prom King or how much pot you could smoke without anyone noticing.

I disagree that "pure instinct" is useful for a judgment on whether you want to go to college (or are cut out for it) because if that was the case, I wouldn't be here right now. I had very much an instinct AGAINST college when I was 15. I'm a first gen. college student so I had never really had the urge (Or rather, instinct).

 

[Tinkerbell22]

I dunno about you, but high school was a complete joke in my city and was more about how many girls you could have sex with and whether you were going to be Prom King or how much pot you could smoke without anyone noticing.

I disagree that "pure instinct" is useful for a judgment on whether you want to go to college (or are cut out for it) because if that was the case, I wouldn't be here right now. I had very much an instinct AGAINST college when I was 15. I'm a first gen. college student so I had never really had the urge (Or rather, instinct).

Same here... I did not go to a good high school. It made me street smart, but I had to go out of my way to separate myself in every AP class so that I could learn something prior to college.

The only reason I had accepted the idea I would be attending college at a younger age is because of my mother. When I was in elementary school they tried to skip me a grade and then placed me in "gifted" classes (aka: I was so bored I got in trouble for distracting the other kids so they put me in another class twice a week to draw with colored pencils and do pottery so I'd be busier when I went back to class lol). My mom said I had no choice but to go because if I did not I would waste my ability and then live in poverty for the rest of my life and be miserable relying on someone else to support me... lol

 

[Electrode]

so ur saying that if you weren't "forced" to go to college, you wouldn't be concerned of "educating" yourself? i'm pretty sure you had that sense of ambition when you were 15..

If you meant: if I hadn't so much been "educated" on a supposed importance of going to college, then yes, I wouldn't have been concerned about college at all.

If I were to be engulfed in your theory of pure instinct, I would have probably been 10-15 years away from my retirement age before realizing college would have granted me a much better living experience....(most likely).

 

[Passion4Sci]

so ur saying that if you weren't "forced" to go to college, you wouldn't be concerned of "educating" yourself? i'm pretty sure you had that sense of ambition when you were 15..

That's neither here nor there.

The nature hypothesis does not support knowing whether college is right or wrong.

Circumstances change, people change, life changes people. Instinct should be left to deal with fight v. flight (which is often wrong in modern society) and matters like this should be based in cognition. Instinct just falls flat.

 

[SHC1984]

If you are Asian your parents will PRESSURE you go to college! LOL...I had no idea what I wanted to do and I still don't know what I really want to do...but my parents always wanted me in the healthcare profession. Without all that pressure to do well in school from my parents I really do not know what I will be like today.

 

[Farmacist2011]

You would have been fine. I had zero pressure to do anything and will be a pharmacist in a few years.I don't get the inferiority complex with asian families where they are embarassed to say if their child is a nurse or works construction. Shouldn't they care about their child's happiness... "NO YOU CANT HAVE A SLEEP OVER" PIANO OR VIOLIN, 5 HOURS A DAY!

 

[UNMorBUST]

You would have been fine. I had zero pressure to do anything and will be a pharmacist in a few years.I don't get the inferiority complex with asian families where they are embarassed to say if their child is a nurse or works construction. Shouldn't they care about their child's happiness... "NO YOU CANT HAVE A SLEEP OVER" PIANO OR VIOLIN, 5 HOURS A DAY!

The whole tiger mom thing freaks me out.

 

[confettiflyer]

The whole tiger mom thing freaks me out.

this is why asians are considered overrepresented in colleges/universities. so glad they got rid of affirmative action in lots of places, i woulda been discriminated against =P

 

[Farmacist2011]

I can't wait for white people to be the minority in this country. Then maybe I can get into medical school. 😛

 

[UNMorBUST]

I really hope this doesnt turn into an AA discussion guys.

 

[SHC1984]

You would have been fine. I had zero pressure to do anything and will be a pharmacist in a few years.I don't get the inferiority complex with asian families where they are embarassed to say if their child is a nurse or works construction. Shouldn't they care about their child's happiness... "NO YOU CANT HAVE A SLEEP OVER" PIANO OR VIOLIN, 5 HOURS A DAY!

Damn, you got it ALL right. I was NEVER allow to sleep over at anyone's house, I had a 9pm curfew and was in trouble if I was 2 seconds late, I did play the piano and clarinet...(I tried the violin but it was very hard) and my mother always wanted me to be an MD. She forced me to take the MCAT!!! Asian parents are very ashamed if their children turn out to be a non-doctor or non-lawyer etc. And the name of the school matters A LOT too! lol...Anything Ivy League is a MUST! 😉

But yeah, you got everything covered right there!

 

[owlegrad]

I really hope this doesnt turn into an AA discussion guys.

And what pray tell do you have against alcoholics who want to remain anonymous?

 

[rxlea]

Speaking of AA, I discovered this amazing new pinot noir while I was in Phoenix last weekend. Nothing like a full-bodied red wine, exploding with fruity flavor, good legs and a strong finish. If this wine I found was a woman, I would date her...or at least want to 😉

 

[Passion4Sci]

Speaking of AA, I discovered this amazing new pinot noir while I was in Phoenix last weekend. Nothing like a full-bodied red wine, exploding with fruity flavor, good legs and a strong finish. If this wine I found was a woman, I would date her...or at least want to 😉

Remember back when, on the OT thread, when we had to choose what SDN'er we'd want to marry, and I chose you? You always validate that choice. 😀

 

[rxlea]

Remember back when, on the OT thread, when we had to choose what SDN'er we'd want to marry, and I chose you? You always validate that choice. 😀

I have no doubt that you are one of a handful of men that could satisfy my cultured palate- quite literally. It is my hope that one day I will have the honor of sharing an evening of good conversation, wine and your delicious pastries with you and your wife.

 

[owlegrad]

I didn't say "pure instinct is useful for a judgment on whether you want to go to college." I said pure instinct let's you know if college is for you or not. It's not about what you want; it's about what your instinct tells you, and how sincerely you trust it.

You have strained my reading comprehension skills past their limit. I cannot see a difference between "is useful for a judgement on whether you want to go to college" and "know if college is for you or not". How is knowing if college is for you not the same as making a judgement on whether to go to college or not? I do not even see a hair to split between those two statements.

 

[Farmacist2011]

You have strained my reading comprehension skills past their limit. I cannot see a difference between "is useful for a judgement on whether you want to go to college" and "know if college is for you or not". How is knowing if college is for you not the same as making a judgement on whether to go to college or not? I do not even see a hair to split between those two statements.

My reading comprehension was not strained as I gave up trying to understand what she meant after reading it twice.

 

[Farmacist2011]

It's something like this--instinct is something like this. It's something responsive to a particular stimuli. It's not something about emotions or judgment or wants, it's something by impulse that let's you do what you do. There is no battling over it. Like when you read forums and comments, you simply understand (not including jargons) the context by instinct and you further discuss it with intelligent arguments rather than criticizing the content without deliberating--it's subjective, and not smart at all.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Damn, you got it ALL right. I was NEVER allow to sleep over at anyone's house, I had a 9pm curfew and was in trouble if I was 2 seconds late, I did play the piano and clarinet...(I tried the violin but it was very hard) and my mother always wanted me to be an MD. She forced me to take the MCAT!!! Asian parents are very ashamed if their children turn out to be a non-doctor or non-lawyer etc. And the name of the school matters A LOT too! lol...Anything Ivy League is a MUST! 😉

But yeah, you got everything covered right there!

Have you read Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother? Your post sounded like the Cliff's Notes version...

 

[edenstarlite]

There is always going to be those that follow the norm and the pressure of society to attend college or their parents demanding them to go. I believe that it's truly up to the individual. I went to college because my parent made me but I think if I didn't get that push I would have never realized my potential. On the other hand, my husband never thought college was for him, he went to a vocational school to be a mechanic. We would argue all the time about college vs a trade school and how we would raise our kids. In the end, I think it's all about giving your kids the best informed decision about both and all the options and possibilities. They ultimately have to do it for themselves and we will stand behind any decision they make knowing that we have bestowed upon to them the knowledge we possess.

And seriously, how would you really know what you wanted to be in middle school? I remembered I wanted to be a princess. LOL

 

[Sparda29]

The problem I have with the current American system of college is that they make you take general education classes.

For example, if I'm going for a Biology degree, I shouldn't have to take English 101, Literature, Speech, History, Philosophy, or any of those other liberal arts courses.

 

[Passion4Sci]

I think I wanted to be Fox Mulder and bang Scully every night.

Yeah, middle school is a bad time to make someone decide about their life plans. LOL D:

 

[nrsair]

I think I wanted to be Fox Mulder and bang Scully every night.

Yeah, middle school is a bad time to make someone decide about their life plans. LOL D:

I wanted to be Michael Jordan. Not a pro basketball player (although I came close in a different sport). Not a retired guy with a gambling habit who makes millions for selling shoes. Michael Jordan. That wasn't possible for any number of reasons.

 

[rxlea]

I think I wanted to be Fox Mulder and bang Scully every night.

Yeah, middle school is a bad time to make someone decide about their life plans. LOL D:

Me too.

 

[Project2015]

I think I wanted to be Fox Mulder and bang Scully every night.

Yeah, middle school is a bad time to make someone decide about their life plans. LOL D:

😱

 

[pharm B]

Me too.

Man this gave me the creeps. The wife and I have been watching the first season of X-Files over the last month or so. 😱

But me three. 😀

 

[veyep]

6th grade I wanted to be a soccer player
7th grade I wanted to be a police officer
8th grade I wanted to be a fire fighter

In less than two months I'll be a pharmacist! I don't like this study!