Sub 3.0 GPA - Should I give up?

[CanuckApp]

Sorry for starting with said title.

There seems to be so much expertise around here, I thought I would reach out for help.

I am 28. My undergrad GPA is 2.79, my Masters (in computer science) is 3.85. my MCATs are 36P.

Basically, I had a hard time in undergrad and was academically unsuccessful.

In grad school, I realized so clearly why I want to go to med school. I just focused, blocked out all sources of conflict from my life, got through pre-reqs and published 2 papers on clinical decision support. After graduation, studied for my mcats, while working at a clinical software company.

I have applied twice. Once to American schools (applied to a range), didn't get an interview. Applied to 4 Canadian schools the year after - same thing happened. Mind you, I applied late in the cycle, but still.

I have been told by quite a few people to give it up. At this point, i can't change my undergrad grades and I spoke with a few schools who bluntly told me they didn't even look at my application because it was below their cutoff.

People have given me advice to get to know people. To introduce myself to admissions people who make decisions and tell them my story. How, I ask? As many of you know, these people are very accessible, and purposefully so. Of course I would like to plead my case but I don't know how to do it without seemingly like I am asking for something inappropriate.

Lastly, my question is specific to Canadian and American schools for an MD. I know there are other great schools and great degrees but I would like to focus on MD for now. I will be a permanent resident of the US by next app cycle so I won't need to apply as an international student in the US anymore.

Would really appreciate any ideas/advice regarding how to address my GPA, or do something help me surpass that hurdle (Is there some magic extracurric I don't know about? ). I really don't want to give up - it's what I really want to do.

Thank you in advance for your help.

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[chirodocjrd]

Do a masters program at a medical school or another one listed under the special masters thread. I am at PCOM in their biomedical science masters and my uGpa was just a bit higher than yours. They might give you a chance. Give Trena in admissions a call or Dr. Matayoshi, the program director. Both are great people who will give you great advice on both med school and the biomed program. I was also accepted to Mississippi Colleges biomedical masters so maybe contact them as well. I spoke with the program director there and he was a big help.

Don't give up! Do what ever it takes to make your dream come true. Just be prepared to work harder than you ever have. My daily routine is 12-14 hours of studying each day, 7 days a week.

Good luck!

 

[Owlie]

Do a masters program at a medical school or another one listed under the special masters thread. I am at PCOM in their biomedical science masters and my uGpa was just a bit higher than yours. They might give you a chance. Give Trena in admissions a call or Dr. Matayoshi, the program director. Both are great people who will give you great advice on both med school and the biomed program. I was also accepted to Mississippi Colleges biomedical masters so maybe contact them as well. I spoke with the program director there and he was a big help.

Don't give up! Do what ever it takes to make your dream come true. Just be prepared to work harder than you ever have. My daily routine is 12-14 hours of studying each day, 7 days a week.

Good luck!

Thanks for being such an encouraging person. You rock!

 

[TriagePreMed]

Realistically, your biggest hurdle is the fact that you're Canadian. If you managed a 36P on the MCAT and did so well on your masters, it's fairly safe to assume you'd do well in post-baccalaureate courses. Most MD Canadian students have >3.7 GPA, which you will never attain with that damage. Are you open to Osteopathic programs? Soon all DO residencies will be ACGME accredited, and as far as my understanding goes, you're allowed to use the letters MD inside Canada (someone please fact check me).

 

[CanuckApp]

Do a masters program at a medical school or another one listed under the special masters thread. I am at PCOM in their biomedical science masters and my uGpa was just a bit higher than yours. They might give you a chance. Give Trena in admissions a call or Dr. Matayoshi, the program director. Both are great people who will give you great advice on both med school and the biomed program. I was also accepted to Mississippi Colleges biomedical masters so maybe contact them as well. I spoke with the program director there and he was a big help.

Don't give up! Do what ever it takes to make your dream come true. Just be prepared to work harder than you ever have. My daily routine is 12-14 hours of studying each day, 7 days a week.

Good luck!

Thank you so much for your response and your recommendations for people to talk to. I have already done a Masters and that has seemed to have done me no good. In fact, graduate school grades won't even help me dilute my undergrad grades.

I did work really hard in my Master's and studying for my MCATS. I totally remember the sometimes 16 hour days, and not remembering what weekends were. And it seems strange that it may be all for nothing if I can't get people to look at my application.

Anyways, I do appreciate your encouragement - thank you...

 

[CanuckApp]

Realistically, your biggest hurdle is the fact that you're Canadian. If you managed a 36P on the MCAT and did so well on your masters, it's fairly safe to assume you'd do well in post-baccalaureate courses. Most MD Canadian students have >3.7 GPA, which you will never attain with that damage. Are you open to Osteopathic programs? Soon all DO residencies will be ACGME accredited, and as far as my understanding goes, you're allowed to use the letters MD inside Canada (someone please fact check me).

Thank you for your response, I really appreciate it.

I agree, being Canadian is a huge hurdle in American schools (should be solved by next app cycle). And even within Canada, it seems like uGPA reqs are even higher.

I don't really want to look at Osteopathic programs yet - I had my heart set on MD for so long.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Thank you for your response, I really appreciate it.

I agree, being Canadian is a huge hurdle in American schools (should be solved by next app cycle). And even within Canada, it seems like uGPA reqs are even higher.

I don't really want to look at Osteopathic programs yet - I had my heart set on MD for so long.

Well, good luck then, but I don't believe an American school will give their seat to an international applicant with <3.0 even with a 45 MCAT. In fact, I really doubt MD looks seriously at any international under a 3.5. You can go ahead an calculate the GPA required to get there, and if you think you can do it, I hope it works out for you. I don't know about the SMP route and how it'll be seen in Canada or for an international student. You may want to look into that.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

No, if you go to a DO school you will be a DO who did an ACGME residency, just as it is now, it doesn't change where you graduated from.

Hopefully starting July 2015 there will be a combined DO/MD match and ALL residencies will meet the same criteria and be accredited by ACGME...

If you are set on being an MD, I would take some UG courses to try to get your GPA to at least a 3.0, and apply June 1st...

 

[TriagePreMed]

No, if you go to a DO school you will be a DO who did an ACGME residency, just as it is now, it doesn't change where you graduated from.

Hopefully starting July 2015 there will be a combined DO/MD match and ALL residencies will meet the same criteria and be accredited by ACGME...

If you are set on being an MD, I would take some UG courses to try to get your GPA to at least a 3.0, and apply June 1st...

That's the case in the US, but is it the same in Canada? Do you have to use DO?

 

[Ransomed30]

Dreams are worth struggling for and worth fighting for. Sometimes it takes a little longer to get there Ignore the noise and the doubters. If your undergraduate is low, look at some the classes you did specifically low at and see if you can retake them. Anatomy, Physiology, Pathophysiology, Endocronology, Epidemiology, Biochemistry, Physics, etc. Worst comes to worst you would just have to retake some the classes where you didn't do well on. D.O schools usually look at your repeating time grade and ignore your first time while M.D. schools look at the average of both scores. Furthermore, D.O students have the option to take the board and be certified also as M.D.'s. Keep pushing!

 

[QofQuimica]

We're happy to give you advice; the question is, are you willing to even consider taking it?

Let's look at your situation objectively here. You're an international applicant with a sub-3.0 GPA who has applied for medical school twice and not gotten a single interview. You have been told that your GPA is too low for you to even pass the cutoffs and that this is the problem, even though you have already done an MS and you have a very competitive MCAT score. You are an international applicant competing against other international applicants with stellar UG records for a very limited number of seats at the limited number of medical schools that will accept international students. You are not wanting to give up (a laudable attitude), but you are also looking for some kind of magic fix that will get you what you want instead of realistically assessing your options and doing what is necessary to achieve your goal of becoming a physician.

You're not ready to look at osteopathic programs yet? Good grief. If two years of getting every door slammed in your face isn't enough to make you ready to consider other options yet, how many more years of it do you need before you're ready?

Getting permanent residency is certainly a step in the right direction, but that does nothing to fix the fact that your GPA is abysmal. The only way you can fix that GPA is to take classes. You have two options: take UG classes to replace your prior low grades, or do an SMP. You can do a search for more details about both options, but suffice it to say that while there are no guarantees with either method, retaking classes with poor grades to raise your AACOMAS GPA has a better chance of getting you into a medical school (as well as being much cheaper than an SMP).

So if I were in your shoes, I would take that option of grade replacement to get into a DO school and run like all getout with it. And FWIW, I'm telling you this as an MD.

 

[Napoletana1007]

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[477552]

Don't give up! I was just accepted to my top school with a 2.97 undergrad gpa! I'm 29, I have my BS in physics (like comp science, it's a different and challenging major) and master's in modern languages(3.65) Something I did was take postbac classes at my local university (23hrs 3.9 gpa) which is much cheaper than a smp. If you do, just be sure to take high quality, challenging classes. You can do it! Next year when you're a resident and apply early you'll get in, think positive!

Adding a +1. I'm doing that right now, taking classes and paying for them individually. It's still a sizeable chunk of change at my big California state university with massive tuition hikes, but still cheaper than an SMP.

It won't hike up your GPA a ton, buuuuut... if you're a physics major without a lot of biology courses, I'd pile on that upper-division biology. That "hole" in my undergrad education was a major reason I was waitlisted after a second attempt (I'm a chemistry major with a 3.04 uGPA/3.55 Master's; my BCPM was slaughtered due to p-chem). So, I'm taking a ton of undergrad biology courses and kicking ass.

Being an international applicant is a whole new hurdle, but if you're determined to forge ahead, then think about postbacc classes. And if you take them, kick ass.

 

[CanuckApp]

Thanks Prncssbuttercup!

I think from this thread, I will definitely do that. starting to look at courses again today!

 

[CanuckApp]

We're happy to give you advice; the question is, are you willing to even consider taking it?

Let's look at your situation objectively here. You're an international applicant with a sub-3.0 GPA who has applied for medical school twice and not gotten a single interview. You have been told that your GPA is too low for you to even pass the cutoffs and that this is the problem, even though you have already done an MS and you have a very competitive MCAT score. You are an international applicant competing against other international applicants with stellar UG records for a very limited number of seats at the limited number of medical schools that will accept international students. You are not wanting to give up (a laudable attitude), but you are also looking for some kind of magic fix that will get you what you want instead of realistically assessing your options and doing what is necessary to achieve your goal of becoming a physician.

You're not ready to look at osteopathic programs yet? Good grief. If two years of getting every door slammed in your face isn't enough to make you ready to consider other options yet, how many more years of it do you need before you're ready?

Getting permanent residency is certainly a step in the right direction, but that does nothing to fix the fact that your GPA is abysmal. The only way you can fix that GPA is to take classes. You have two options: take UG classes to replace your prior low grades, or do an SMP. You can do a search for more details about both options, but suffice it to say that while there are no guarantees with either method, retaking classes with poor grades to raise your AACOMAS GPA has a better chance of getting you into a medical school (as well as being much cheaper than an SMP).

So if I were in your shoes, I would take that option of grade replacement to get into a DO school and run like all getout with it. And FWIW, I'm telling you this as an MD.

Hi QofQuimica,

Thank you for your frank response - I really appreciate it.

After reading your response, I did start looking at DO schools. I think it comes down to the fact that I would rather be working with patients as a DO, than not at all, especially considering the little difference. Besides, taking courses to improve my GPA will help my chances in either case.

Also, it's not so much that I was looking for some quick fix. Although I used the word "magic", I should have said "something I wasn't aware of.". From those who know me well, including physicians, I get some advice that I should give up trying to improve my grades because it wouldn't really help, and that especially given my work/life experiences (I did 6 internships, research, volunteering at hospice, pediatric hospitals, clinic in ecuador etc.), I should focus on getting in front of people and telling my story/passion. Also, since I am working in a city/company with few people thinking about med schools, I wasn't sure if there were things to be done to help my application that I didn't know about.

Anyways, I started researching places to take courses this morning. Thanks for your advice!

 

[CanuckApp]

Don't give up! I was just accepted to my top school with a 2.97 undergrad gpa! I'm 29, I have my BS in physics (like comp science, it's a different and challenging major) and master's in modern languages(3.65) Something I did was take postbac classes at my local university (23hrs 3.9 gpa) which is much cheaper than a smp. If you do, just be sure to take high quality, challenging classes. You can do it! Next year when you're a resident and apply early you'll get in, think positive!

Wow really? That's amazing!

Do you mind me asking, are you a Florida resident? Just wondering if that made a difference. I will be a permanent resident come start of cycle but not a resident.

Starting to research courses at local schools as well. So much cheaper than my undergrad schools!

 

[QofQuimica]

Hi QofQuimica,

Thank you for your frank response - I really appreciate it.

After reading your response, I did start looking at DO schools. I think it comes down to the fact that I would rather be working with patients as a DO, than not at all, especially considering the little difference. Besides, taking courses to improve my GPA will help my chances in either case.

Also, it's not so much that I was looking for some quick fix. Although I used the word "magic", I should have said "something I wasn't aware of.". From those who know me well, including physicians, I get some advice that I should give up trying to improve my grades because it wouldn't really help, and that especially given my work/life experiences (I did 6 internships, research, volunteering at hospice, pediatric hospitals, clinic in ecuador etc.), I should focus on getting in front of people and telling my story/passion. Also, since I am working in a city/company with few people thinking about med schools, I wasn't sure if there were things to be done to help my application that I didn't know about.

Anyways, I started researching places to take courses this morning. Thanks for your advice!

Good for you, and you're making the right decision. The ostensible difference between MD and DO degrees isn't magnified anywhere more than it is in the minds of premeds.

Seems to me like the schools you asked told you what your app was lacking, and what they said was lacking was good grades. In addition, based on your brief list of activities, it seems like you've done more than enough due diligence to demonstrate your interest in medicine and community service. It's all good for obviously well-meaning friends to tell you to focus on getting in front of people to tell your story/passion. But unless you have a realistically competitive GPA, you're not likely ever going to get that chance. Whereas, a couple of semesters of applying yourself and replacing your worst UG grades with As should put you in a very good position to make your case to DO schools.

FL is a great state to choose, BTW; I am from FL myself. (And my mom is Canadian. )

 

[Freesia88]

OP, I find myself in the same boat, an international student(permanent resident) with a not-so-stellar-by US med school standards UG GPA. I decided to go the second bachelor degree route because I realistically have no chance of doing anything (except get into some graduate program related to my UG major) with my current bachelors, and getting a second one will enable me fix my GPA issues, as well as get a degree I can find employment with if med school does not work out.

There are many options to choose from and it sounds like you're getting excellent advice already. Hang in there.

 

[Napoletana1007]

Wow really? That's amazing!

Do you mind me asking, are you a Florida resident? Just wondering if that made a difference. I will be a permanent resident come start of cycle but not a resident.

Starting to research courses at local schools as well. So much cheaper than my undergrad schools!

Yes I am a Florida resident, I only apply to my state MD programs and then DO schools from across the country. I think that DO is a great option also. I've heard great things about DOs from MDs, and learned a lot from the DO I shadowed. This cycle I received 7 iis from DO schools, they really appreciate non-trad students.