Surgeons and Anesthesiologists in the ICU

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Modanq

Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
311
Reaction score
391
I've been thinking about some of the discussions on this board about anesthesiologists in the ICU and financial incentives, value added, being "indispensable " etc. I was wondering if anyone has insights into why Surgeons do ICU fellowships, what financial incentive is there for a group to cover the ICU. Does billing change? How can anesthesiologists who cover the ICU improve the finances lending to more groups entrenching themselves in the unit. Will that model be based on procedures - regional blocks, epidurals, perc trachs, bronchs, echos, lines, thoras, paras plus ICU minutes?

Academically and clinically ICU is in the wheelhouse of anesthesiologists and surgeons and therefore we both only need 1 year to be boarded in ICU - how do we keep recruitment up and keep the dream alive. $$$

Members don't see this ad.
 
I've been thinking about some of the discussions on this board about anesthesiologists in the ICU and financial incentives, value added, being "indispensable " etc. I was wondering if anyone has insights into why Surgeons do ICU fellowships, what financial incentive is there for a group to cover the ICU. Does billing change? How can anesthesiologists who cover the ICU improve the finances lending to more groups entrenching themselves in the unit. Will that model be based on procedures - regional blocks, epidurals, perc trachs, bronchs, echos, lines, thoras, paras plus ICU minutes?

Academically and clinically ICU is in the wheelhouse of anesthesiologists and surgeons and therefore we both only need 1 year to be boarded in ICU - how do we keep recruitment up and keep the dream alive. $$$

It doesn’t always have to be about money. It sometimes is about what you like to do. Some surgeons like spending time in the Unit and seeing how the patients do postoperativively or just like to take care of sick patients.

But yes, this is capitalism. People always say there’s more money in the OR but for me I see not much of a difference in pay. But I have never had the opportunity to make the 500k plus that I am sure everyone here makes.

There are plenty of ICU jobs paying 400k plus. So there’s a monetary incentive I would think to put an anesthesiologist in the Unit. It’s just that most CEOs and administrators have no clue that we can run ICUs just as effective and be there all day instead of in and out of clinic like pulmonologists.
 
Last edited:
It never made sense to me why surgeons would "stoop" to ICU medicine when they can make more money operating.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I've been thinking about some of the discussions on this board about anesthesiologists in the ICU and financial incentives, value added, being "indispensable " etc. I was wondering if anyone has insights into why Surgeons do ICU fellowships, what financial incentive is there for a group to cover the ICU. Does billing change? How can anesthesiologists who cover the ICU improve the finances lending to more groups entrenching themselves in the unit. Will that model be based on procedures - regional blocks, epidurals, perc trachs, bronchs, echos, lines, thoras, paras plus ICU minutes?

Academically and clinically ICU is in the wheelhouse of anesthesiologists and surgeons and therefore we both only need 1 year to be boarded in ICU - how do we keep recruitment up and keep the dream alive. $$$

ICU is the least sexy fellowship in anesthesia IMO... people who do it do it for the love mostly, usually without an increase in pay, and sometimes with an increase in hours, just my impression...

Personally I find it one of the most frustrating places to be around, so inefficient and protocolized.. cant do it
 
I've been thinking about some of the discussions on this board about anesthesiologists in the ICU and financial incentives, value added, being "indispensable " etc. I was wondering if anyone has insights into why Surgeons do ICU fellowships, what financial incentive is there for a group to cover the ICU. Does billing change? How can anesthesiologists who cover the ICU improve the finances lending to more groups entrenching themselves in the unit. Will that model be based on procedures - regional blocks, epidurals, perc trachs, bronchs, echos, lines, thoras, paras plus ICU minutes?

Academically and clinically ICU is in the wheelhouse of anesthesiologists and surgeons and therefore we both only need 1 year to be boarded in ICU - how do we keep recruitment up and keep the dream alive. $$$

From my personal observations:

1 Failed surgeons do ICU.
2 Only way for anesthesiologists to bill more in the ICU is to do a couple of OR rooms while rounding in the ICU.
3 The ASA should make all anesthesia residents do 12 mo of ICU and have them sit for Ansthesia & ICU boards and get rid of separate ICU fellowships.
 
2 Only way for anesthesiologists to bill more in the ICU is to do a couple of OR rooms while rounding in the ICU.
3 The ASA should make all anesthesia residents do 12 mo of ICU and have them sit for Ansthesia & ICU boards and get rid of separate ICU fellowships.

Not sure (2) is legal, especially if billing medical direction??

Totally and completely agree with (3). Eliminate some of the BS intern year filler and this could easily be done within the current 4 year residency format.
 
From my personal observations:

1 Failed surgeons do ICU.
.
Oh thats not true entirely.

Surgical critical care falls under the purview of Trauma Surgery. So the trauma surgeons are the icu doctors.

Icu is a tough place in that you are routinely telling familes that their loved one is dead, brain dead, etc etc etc...
plus the nurses are haughty as hell and they think they know how to manage patients better than you. Ive seen it when I pick up the patients from the unit.
 
Oh thats not true entirely.

Surgical critical care falls under the purview of Trauma Surgery. So the trauma surgeons are the icu doctors.

Icu is a tough place in that you are routinely telling familes that their loved one is dead, brain dead, etc etc etc...
plus the nurses are haughty as hell and they think they know how to manage patients better than you. Ive seen it when I pick up the patients from the unit.
I would not call Trauma Surgery the pinnacle of surgery. I might call it failed surgeon specialty though.
 
From my personal observations:

1 Failed surgeons do ICU.
2 Only way for anesthesiologists to bill more in the ICU is to do a couple of OR rooms while rounding in the ICU.
3 The ASA should make all anesthesia residents do 12 mo of ICU and have them sit for Ansthesia & ICU boards and get rid of separate ICU fellowships.
Why? People don’t want to practice in the ICU due to low compensation/poor lifestyle. How will “forcing” this fellowship change anything.?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Oh thats not true entirely.

Surgical critical care falls under the purview of Trauma Surgery. So the trauma surgeons are the icu doctors.

Icu is a tough place in that you are routinely telling familes that their loved one is dead, brain dead, etc etc etc...
plus the nurses are haughty as hell and they think they know how to manage patients better than you. Ive seen it when I pick up the patients from the unit.
Do you work in academics? Not all ICUs are created equal. In the community they tend not to be “haughty as hell”. OTOH, academic nurses in general..... Can’t wait to be done with fellowship.
 
Why? People don’t want to practice in the ICU due to low compensation/poor lifestyle. How will “forcing” this fellowship change anything.?
They don’t have to practice it when they get out, but they could learn a lot about medicine and sick patients of all varieties and how to manage them.
 
The surgeons have to do icu fellowship to become a trauma surgeon so they can staff the trauma or surgical icu. I think they can do the fellowship after their PGY2 year too. Instead of going into the lab to do research they can do icu. Although I'm not sure if they can be board certified in CC before their surgery boards. Most of the surgical fellows here is using it as a way to get into/more research done. But I agree, they don't operate for a whole year, not sure how good their skills will be this July when they start taking trauma call as attendings.

One of my co-fellows took a job that allows her to OR cases and cover the ICU at the same time. Not sure what the exact billing method will be, but she is going to be making bank. Not me, doing academics. I just like the patient population and the environment...a place to escape from "table up/down/left/right."
 
Why? People don’t want to practice in the ICU due to low compensation/poor lifestyle. How will “forcing” this fellowship change anything.?
There are too few anesthesia intensivists. There is no good incentive to do a critical care fellowship due to compensation, low satisfaction and burnout.

As to how do we get more people in critical care, if the ASA made everyone CC board eligible without an extra year there would be more people in the pool to draw from. Granted many would not do it, but it would still be more than the current system. Large groups could take over covering the ICUs as if it were another anesthesia location.
 
My personal experience has been that in many units (mainly Internal Medicine run) that Anesthesia trained intensivists are not always the most welcome. I have been told a range of things from that we just have a different mentality and approach to a lot of problems which causes some friction with a lot of IM training to in the units with surgical patients we often have a prior working relationship with the surgeons if we split time in the OR that can lead to some perceptions of increased trust or favoritism.

On a compensation note, I am not sure how this is reflected across the country, but the three major hospitals I have worked at there was a major pay difference (>100k) between an anesthesia trained ICU attending who was ICU only and one who either split time or was not fellowship trained and purely worked in the OR.
 
No offense to any of the excellent anesthesiologists here on SDN, but there is a lot many anesthesiologists can learn from the ICU. I understand that not every anesthesiologist ends up taking care of incredibly sick patients, but the more time I spend in the ICU, the more shell-shocked I am by many general anesthesiologist's management.

There's way too short-sighted a view when it comes to intra-operative management, often to the detriment of patient care. I've heard way too much "let's just get him to the ICU" and I don't know how that's an acceptable approach to taking care of a patient. There's a reason most European countries include ICU training as part of their anesthesia training.

As far as the OP's question, American anesthesiologists likely will continue to shun the ICU given the poor compensation and the disdain that too many departments show to their ICU personnel. There are way too many centers that view anesthesiologists in the ICU as a burden and expect them to work slave hours there while also taking the same amount of call in the OR. Then again, there are also places where they count that as actual call and take it into consideration. But until the latter is more of the norm, people will continue to avoid the ICU unless they really enjoy it. Bundled payments (if/when they come) could change everything though.
 
Care to elaborate? I'd genuinely be interested in specific cases and hearing how a general anesthesiologist negatively affected someone's postop care, so I don't repeat the same in the future, rather than having ICU docs talk about said anesthesiologist during rounds and not give any feedback.

What kinds of scenarios have led you to be 'shell shocked'? and how can the non-ICU anesthesiology community improve? (honestly asking, since I'm not entering the CCM field)

No offense to any of the excellent anesthesiologists here on SDN, but there is a lot many anesthesiologists can learn from the ICU. I understand that not every anesthesiologist ends up taking care of incredibly sick patients, but the more time I spend in the ICU, the more shell-shocked I am by many general anesthesiologist's management.

There's way too short-sighted a view when it comes to intra-operative management, often to the detriment of patient care. I've heard way too much "let's just get him to the ICU" and I don't know how that's an acceptable approach to taking care of a patient. There's a reason most European countries include ICU training as part of their anesthesia training.

As far as the OP's question, American anesthesiologists likely will continue to shun the ICU given the poor compensation and the disdain that too many departments show to their ICU personnel. There are way too many centers that view anesthesiologists in the ICU as a burden and expect them to work slave hours there while also taking the same amount of call in the OR. Then again, there are also places where they count that as actual call and take it into consideration. But until the latter is more of the norm, people will continue to avoid the ICU unless they really enjoy it. Bundled payments (if/when they come) could change everything though.
 
Regarding surgeons making much more in the OR: when I was a resident one of our surgical ICU attending a told me that he billed more on a day shift in the SICU than in a day of bread and butter general surgery cases. Specialty surgery I’m sure it’s a different story but for a general surgeon the SICU is not a bad gig.

Regarding anesthesiologists dumping on the unit, I admit I have noticed myself doing this more the longer I am out of training. Part of it is the need to keep rooms running, part is institutional culture, and part is that even though I still feel comfortable doing critical care, the truth is I’m probably less crisp than right after one of the 6 months of the unit in residency. Not necessarily reasons I’m proud of but reasons nonetheless.
 
Care to elaborate? I'd genuinely be interested in specific cases and hearing how a general anesthesiologist negatively affected someone's postop care, so I don't repeat the same in the future, rather than having ICU docs talk about said anesthesiologist during rounds and not give any feedback.

What kinds of scenarios have led you to be 'shell shocked'? and how can the non-ICU anesthesiology community improve? (honestly asking, since I'm not entering the CCM field)
One aspect that always stands out is fluid management. I've lost count of the number of times during residency and currently in fellowship where a patient goes to the OR for a washout while on norepinephrine and returns having received 3L of crystalloid to "get off vasopressors". I've seen bleeding patients with RV dysfunction hooked up to the Belmont and seen their RV blow out.

I look at my own practice and how it's changed over the past year and I'm astonished by what I used to do. Like being reticent to adjust my respiratory rate greater than 10-15 and favoring increasing tidal volumes. Or having little knowledge when it comes to antibiotic prophylaxis and the correct procedure coverage (something we end up double covering for frequently).


I'm an anesthesiologist and I think anesthesia-trained intensivists are ideal for the ICU as opposed to IM or surgery. I just think the OR mentality is to get through the case and we often lose sight of the big picture. Again, anesthesiologists taking care of critically ill patients day in and out may find most aspects of critical care management second hand. But there are plenty of academic anesthesiologists that treat their sick ICU washout the same as their outpatient ORIF and I think if ICU training was more heavily emphasized during residency it would lead to better patient care. That's my bias though.
 
We should incorporate icu in anesthesiology residency and then be abl
Care to elaborate? I'd genuinely be interested in specific cases and hearing how a general anesthesiologist negatively affected someone's postop care, so I don't repeat the same in the future, rather than having ICU docs talk about said anesthesiologist during rounds and not give any feedback.

What kinds of scenarios have led you to be 'shell shocked'? and how can the non-ICU anesthesiology community improve? (honestly asking, since I'm not entering the CCM field)

Cases with hemorrhagic shock managed with ERAS protocol since hey they were ERAS!
PIV 20 gauge PIV with peripheral pressors in >8 hour cases since CRNA was in room
Double dosing the Vancomycin that the patient just received in the ICU
Not extubating since - well it was the last case of the day and the anesthetic was wearing on too long and the PACU would get frustrated so ICU can extubate
No signout to the ICU team...Gotta run for the next case
 
We should incorporate icu in anesthesiology residency and then be abl


Cases with hemorrhagic shock managed with ERAS protocol since hey they were ERAS!
PIV 20 gauge PIV with peripheral pressors in >8 hour cases since CRNA was in room
Double dosing the Vancomycin that the patient just received in the ICU
Not extubating since - well it was the last case of the day and the anesthetic was wearing on too long and the PACU would get frustrated so ICU can extubate
No signout to the ICU team...Gotta run for the next case
It's a two way street.

I'm sure more than a few have seen icu attendings do their icu stuff in the OR when it doesn't make sense.

A lot of over lining patients. If in doubt put a central line mentality. Somehow the other anesthesiologists manage just fine without it but not them.

Patients not extubated promptly because they got to do 20 calculations after 20 min of pressure support.

Patients not extubated because their lactate is above 4.

Patients who got 3 liters of fluid because their lactate was above 4 also.

Pts needing a bronch at the end becaise their P/F ratio is not perfect.

Patients needing to go to ICU more often "because they are sick." Somehow the other anesthesiologists patients are not as sick.

You get the idea. Everything tends to be a big orchestration. They can't go in and out like a ninja.

And there is nitric, epinephrine, levophed...., cpap...
 
Last edited:
One aspect that always stands out is fluid management. I've lost count of the number of times during residency and currently in fellowship where a patient goes to the OR for a washout while on norepinephrine and returns having received 3L of crystalloid to "get off vasopressors". I've seen bleeding patients with RV dysfunction hooked up to the Belmont and seen their RV blow out.

I look at my own practice and how it's changed over the past year and I'm astonished by what I used to do. Like being reticent to adjust my respiratory rate greater than 10-15 and favoring increasing tidal volumes. Or having little knowledge when it comes to antibiotic prophylaxis and the correct procedure coverage (something we end up double covering for frequently).


I'm an anesthesiologist and I think anesthesia-trained intensivists are ideal for the ICU as opposed to IM or surgery. I just think the OR mentality is to get through the case and we often lose sight of the big picture. Again, anesthesiologists taking care of critically ill patients day in and out may find most aspects of critical care management second hand. But there are plenty of academic anesthesiologists that treat their sick ICU washout the same as their outpatient ORIF and I think if ICU training was more heavily emphasized during residency it would lead to better patient care. That's my bias though.

I dont know how much more ICU time we can do in training... we do typically 2-3 months as interns, and 2-3 more months during residency, maybe not everyone does that much, but that was enough ICU for me..

lets not forget the OTHER big reason why most anesthesiologists in the US dont want to do ICU: the futile care of already dying people and the capitalist industry that surrounds it....

most of the complaints about anesthesia that I hear from ICU doctors comes from a lack of understanding of anesthesia, like "the anesthesia wearing on too long" what? it was probably just not an appropriate extubation... "not signing out to the ICU team" its probably because that 24 year old nurse that Im giving report to is too slow or otherwise occupied to take/understand my report

being in the ICU for me is like being in the eye center, watching paint dry, TOO SLOW
 
It's a two way street. cpap...

Meh. For me, your post doesn't ring true at all.

There are high-maintenance, theatrical, make-patients-sicker-than-they-are anesthesiologists of all training backgrounds.

Some docs are slick ninjas, some aren't.

At least with an ICU doc, they know how to treat the sick patients. And yes, it might require iNO.
 
I am a strong believer that, among all specialties, anesthesiologists are the best equipped to become outstanding intensivists, in all types of ICUs. Beyond our specialty training, all we need are good diagnostic skills and experience. That doesn't mean that all anesthesiologists or anesthesiologist-intensivists are good at critical care. Au contraire; most of them are not. But our extensive knowledge of physiology, pharmacology, cardiopulmonary resuscitation, airway, ventilation, pain management etc. gives us a fantastic advantage.

I think that the secret of great outcomes in medicine is a HEALTHY balance of intervention and expectant observation. In every specialty, that balance is different, and clearly anesthesiology and critical care are different. Critical care has 2 big components: acute resuscitation and subacute/chronic care. Anesthesiologists tend to excel at the former and suck at the latter. And while the former may save lives short term, it's the latter that actually changes long-term outcomes. It's also the latter which depends so much on good day-to-day medicine, including that expectant observation. As one of my fellowship oldies but goldies told me: "Don't just do something, stand there!". Good critical care requires a significant amount of minimalism, of vigilant doing-nothing. Let nature take its course, help it when needed, but do NOT think it's YOU who's healing the patient. And this is where most surgeons (and knee-jerk anesthesiologists and "associate providers") have a problem. In both anesthesiology and surgery, expectant observation and thinking are frowned upon (and this is why these two specialties are so nicely ripe for midlevel takeover; anybody can follow protocols and knee-jerk algorithms).

I teach my residents that one of the main causes of ICU admission and pathology are physicians. Always look for the iatrogenic. There is no limit to human stupidity, even when one has M.D. after one's name. While this may sound pompous and arrogant, it's the truth. Many of my patients get better by simply removing harmful treatments and allowing nature to take its course. Many ICU protocols are made for dumb people who don't have the skills to adapt to each patient; protocols are better than nothing, the same way that index investing is better than active investing for the large majority. Still, for people like Warren Buffett, the active, contrarian approach can do miracles. The same way, in the hands of the knowledgeable, the non-knee-jerk people, ICU patients do much better.

The secret of being good at critical care is being able to understand what's going on with the patient, and being able to do the RIGHT thing about it. That means both having great diagnostic skills (including physical exam and ultrasound), and a good amount of experience (and PATIENCE). Again, this is where the greats shine. I remember reading online an anecdote about a patient who was in septic shock, on fluids (there was an "empty" ventricle, A-line variability and even some dynamic IVC collapse) and pressors, getting worse and worse, with borderline MAP and urinary output, rising lactates, you name it, despite all the protocolized care and everything but the kitchen sink being thrown at him. Until a smart intensivist came and took a look at his hepatic and renal vessels and noticed a ton of venous congestion, so he stopped the fluids and started diuresing him (because most of his problems were due to fluid overload). While on pressors! (and possibly on CRRT, I don't remember exactly). Within a couple of days, most of the bad stuff was reversed and the patient was extubated, because of a contrarian who took the time to diagnose, think, and apply his extensive knowledge. I see this kind of "miracle", again and again and again, with good intensivists, after taking over similar patients from less knowledgeable providers. Not everybody is made for critical care, the same way not everybody is made for anesthesia.

However, even suggesting that somebody could practice critical care without even a year of fellowship is LUDICROUS. It shows tremendous ignorance of what modern and good critical care entails.I would argue that even that year is just a small part of the ocean of knowledge a good intensivist will need to accumulate; it makes one safer at keeping most patients alive, but there is a long way to go before one is truly good, much longer than in anesthesia. Modern critical care requires a lot of time investment, a lot of reading, hence most of the greats are not the doers. And since anesthesiologists (and surgeons) are mostly doers, who focus on short-term outcomes,... let's not fool ourselves.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You might be a little biased.

Ninjas don't go into icu. Total opposite.

As someone who's ICU trained, I'm more than capable of limping through a sick case with a PIV, not adequately resuscitating, doing a cowboy extubation, and then dumping the pt off in the ICU. I just choose not to because frequently it's not the best thing for the pt, I know the issues the ICU docs and nurses are going to have, and I'm likely showing some mercy to my anesthesia colleagues who later that day might be getting called for an intubation or difficult a-line / central line. In my experience, intensivists are better trained at being minimalistic when appropriate, as there are many cases where my colleagues go full press because the pt looks bad on paper but in reality they have stable compensated disease that doesn't need aggressive monitoring, lines, drips etc.
 
Last edited:
You might be a little biased.

Ninjas don't go into icu. Total opposite.
Ehh, you can be an ICU ninja or an OR ninja. But who cares really about Ninja skills? How about just strive to be a good and even great physician without having said Ninja skills?
WTF is a ninja anesthesiologist anyway and why does it even matter? Why are we even talking bout this like it is some kind of competition? We should all be striving for the same thing no?
 
contrarian approach can do miracles., because of a contrarian who took the time to diagnose, think, and apply his extensive knowledge.

Great post and I agree with you completely!! But.... being a contrarian will generally get you censured, peer-reviewed and fired if its too quacky.
 
Well, considering I am actively looking and interviewing for these positions, I think I would have an idea. Maybe it's just my area.
For how many hours, night/weekend shifts/calls? Respectfully, until you prove me wrong, I'll stick to my opinion that there are very few good (read both relatively cushy and well-paying) intensivist jobs, especially for non-internists.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
For how many hours, night/weekend shifts/calls? Respectfully, until you prove me wrong, I'll stick to my opinion that there are very few good (read both relatively cushy and well-paying) intensivist jobs for non-internists.
The usual 7 on 7 off and some are 3-4 days at a time. So every other weekend.
I used to be an RN in the past life and working every other weekend is the norm. Works for me. I don't do much on the weekends as I have no kids.
 
However, even suggesting that somebody could practice critical care without even a year of fellowship is LUDICROUS. It shows tremendous ignorance of what modern and good critical care entails.I would argue that even that year is just a small part of the ocean of knowledge a good intensivist will need to accumulate; it makes one safer at keeping most patients alive, but there is a long way to go before one is truly good, much longer than in anesthesia. Modern critical care requires a lot of time investment, a lot of reading, hence most of the greats are not the doers. And since anesthesiologists (and surgeons) are mostly doers, who focus on short-term outcomes,... let's not fool ourselves.

These watch the throne posts kill me. Of course a CCM doc is going to say you have to study a very long time to ... do nothing and watch the damn patient.

If it takes longer than a year to be a great CC doc, why not make the critical care fellowship 2 or even 3 years?

I struggle with the logic behind this post, when increasingly we see non-physician providers steadily given more responsibility, latitude in and out of the OR than residents. Why must every solution for residents involve more time training? I'm with the 12 mo ICU dual boards idea especially if time for US training and 6-8 weeks are given to actually prepare and study for the boards. If we require more time, reading to become better CC docs ... don't tax us with training, let us better allot the time we already spend in residency.

Whatever ... IMHO there is some good learning in the ICU, but they tend to be very self-glorifying, round till you drop places with terrible outcomes for dollars spent.
 
I am a strong believer that, among all specialties, anesthesiologists are the best equipped to become outstanding intensivists, in all types of ICUs. Beyond our specialty training, all we need are good diagnostic skills and experience. That doesn't mean that all anesthesiologists or anesthesiologist-intensivists are good at critical care. Au contraire; most of them are not. But our extensive knowledge of physiology, pharmacology, cardiopulmonary resuscitation, airway, ventilation, pain management etc. gives us a fantastic advantage.

I think that the secret of great outcomes in medicine is a HEALTHY balance of intervention and expectant observation. In every specialty, that balance is different, and clearly anesthesiology and critical care are different. Critical care has 2 big components: acute resuscitation and subacute/chronic care. Anesthesiologists tend to excel at the former and suck at the latter. And while the former may save lives short term, it's the latter that actually changes long-term outcomes. It's also the latter which depends so much on good day-to-day medicine, including that expectant observation. As one of my fellowship oldies but goldies told me: "Don't just do something, stand there!". Good critical care requires a significant amount of minimalism, of vigilant doing-nothing. Let nature take its course, help it when needed, but do NOT think it's YOU who's healing the patient. And this is where most surgeons (and knee-jerk anesthesiologists and "associate providers") have a problem. In both anesthesiology and surgery, expectant observation and thinking are frowned upon (and this is why these two specialties are so nicely ripe for midlevel takeover; anybody can follow protocols and knee-jerk algorithms).

I teach my residents that one of the main causes of ICU admission and pathology are physicians. Always look for the iatrogenic. There is no limit to human stupidity, even when one has M.D. after one's name. While this may sound pompous and arrogant, it's the truth. Many of my patients get better by simply removing harmful treatments and allowing nature to take its course. Many ICU protocols are made for dumb people who don't have the skills to adapt to each patient; protocols are better than nothing, the same way that index investing is better than active investing for the large majority. Still, for people like Warren Buffett, the active, contrarian approach can do miracles. The same way, in the hands of the knowledgeable, the non-knee-jerk people, ICU patients do much better.

The secret of being good at critical care is being able to understand what's going on with the patient, and being able to do the RIGHT thing about it. That means both having great diagnostic skills (including physical exam and ultrasound), and a good amount of experience (and PATIENCE). Again, this is where the greats shine. I remember reading online an anecdote about a patient who was in septic shock, on fluids (there was an "empty" ventricle, A-line variability and even some dynamic IVC collapse) and pressors, getting worse and worse, with borderline MAP and urinary output, rising lactates, you name it, despite all the protocolized care and everything but the kitchen sink being thrown at him. Until a smart intensivist came and took a look at his hepatic and renal vessels and noticed a ton of venous congestion, so he stopped the fluids and started diuresing him (because most of his problems were due to fluid overload). While on pressors! (and possibly on CRRT, I don't remember exactly). Within a couple of days, most of the bad stuff was reversed and the patient was extubated, because of a contrarian who took the time to diagnose, think, and apply his extensive knowledge. I see this kind of "miracle", again and again and again, with good intensivists, after taking over similar patients from less knowledgeable providers. Not everybody is made for critical care, the same way not everybody is made for anesthesia.

However, even suggesting that somebody could practice critical care without even a year of fellowship is LUDICROUS. It shows tremendous ignorance of what modern and good critical care entails.I would argue that even that year is just a small part of the ocean of knowledge a good intensivist will need to accumulate; it makes one safer at keeping most patients alive, but there is a long way to go before one is truly good, much longer than in anesthesia. Modern critical care requires a lot of time investment, a lot of reading, hence most of the greats are not the doers. And since anesthesiologists (and surgeons) are mostly doers, who focus on short-term outcomes,... let's not fool ourselves.

Meh, every specialty has its strengths and weaknesses, that’s why we have to do the fellowship. ER docs don’t know anything about chronic care but have a broad exposure to medical, surgical and cardiac patients, and have some level of procedural competence, interpreting ekgs, etc. Anesthesiologist don’t know as much about medical patients (I know, I know - medical patients get surgical diseases, too) as others, but are world class at resuscitation, know pharmacology well and are strong at procedures. Internists can do procedures to save their lives and know almost nothing about surgical pathology, but have in-depth understanding of pathology. Surgeons are surgeons. I, personally, think EM is the best suited, if for no other reason that we’re required to spend 2 years doing just CCM to be board certified plus the broad exposure prior to fellowship, but I’m EM. I find my anesthesia colleagues do some crazy things with antibiotics/anti fungalz. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, hopefully everyone can find a fellowship that can bring their weaknesses up to par.

Edited for typos
 
Last edited by a moderator:
These watch the throne posts kill me. Of course a CCM doc is going to say you have to study a very long time to ... do nothing and watch the damn patient.

If it takes longer than a year to be a great CC doc, why not make the critical care fellowship 2 or even 3 years?

I struggle with the logic behind this post, when increasingly we see non-physician providers steadily given more responsibility, latitude in and out of the OR than residents. Why must every solution for residents involve more time training? I'm with the 12 mo ICU dual boards idea especially if time for US training and 6-8 weeks are given to actually prepare and study for the boards. If we require more time, reading to become better CC docs ... don't tax us with training, let us better allot the time we already spend in residency.

Whatever ... IMHO there is some good learning in the ICU, but they tend to be very self-glorifying, round till you drop places with terrible outcomes for dollars spent.
One of the many problems with American critical care is that we allow patients to be admitted for futile care in the ICU. We refuse less than 10% of admission requests, while Europeans refuse 40+. If we triaged properly, you would see much better outcomes at lower costs, because we would have more time to focus on the patients we can actually help (and Medicare could pay much more per ICU patient, as they should). From this futile care standpoint, it's much better in a SICU than a MICU.

That's why @CCM2017 is right when he points out that lucrative anesthesia jobs are generally better than the lucrative CCM ones. A CCM fellowship makes one a better anesthesiologist and doctor, no doubt about that, but doesn't make sense (yet) except for the most passionate anesthesia grads (or those who want out of the OR).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ehh, you can be an ICU ninja or an OR ninja. But who cares really about Ninja skills? How about just strive to be a good and even great physician without having said Ninja skills?
WTF is a ninja anesthesiologist anyway and why does it even matter? Why are we even talking bout this like it is some kind of competition? We should all be striving for the same thing no?

What exactly is ninja skills? Karate chopping things in the OR?
 
As someone who's ICU trained, I'm more than capable of limping through a sick case with a PIV, not adequately resuscitating, doing a cowboy extubation, and then dumping the pt off in the ICU. I just choose not to because frequently it's not the best thing for the pt, I know the issues the ICU docs and nurses are going to have, and I'm likely showing some mercy to my anesthesia colleagues who later that day might be getting called for an intubation or difficult a-line / central line. In my experience, intensivists are better trained at being minimalistic when appropriate, as there are many cases where my colleagues go full press because the pt looks bad on paper but in reality they have stable compensated disease that doesn't need aggressive monitoring, lines, drips etc.
You show signs of icu delirium. Or should I say “delerium” since that’s the way most icu people spell it. Drives me crazy you guys try to claim you are the experts in “delerium” but can’t even spell it properly.

I’m sure many here have witnessed how minimalists the icu pleople can be. They get a pt on low dose phenyleprine, 30 min later the patient is on norepinephrine. Then an hr later they switch to vasopressin. Then they add epinephrine. Then 2 hrs later they remove the epinephrine and switch to dobutamine. Then they add norepinephrine again an turn off dobutamine in favor of milrinone and so on. Seems like every time the nurse calls them for something they write a new drip. “Eeny, meeny, miny, moe”, and you say you need extra training for that?
 
Last edited:
You show signs of icu delirium. Or should I say “delerium” since that’s the way most icu people spell it. Drives me crazy you guys try to claim you are the experts in “delerium” but can’t even spell it properly.
I have honestly never seen that spelling. But I have seen lots of bad english in medicine from doctors, which totally amazes me. "Than, then, they're, their, there, your, you're" all getting used interchangeably. That drives me nuts. Seems like English just "ain't"taught the way it used to be.
 
You know who's really good at OR anesthesia? People who do OR anesthesia.

You know who's really good at taking care of sick patients? People who take care of sick patients.

Doesn't really matter what your fellowship is... if you're excellent, you're excellent; and if you're mediocre... you probably think you're excellent anyways so who cares!?
 
I’m sure many here have witnessed how minimalists the icu pleople can be. They get a pt on low dose phenyleprine, 30 min later the patient is on norepinephrine. Then an hr later they switch to vasopressin. Then they add epinephrine. Then 2 hrs later they remove the epinephrine and switch to dobutamine. Then they add norepinephrine again an turn off dobutamine in favor of milrinone and so on. Seems like every time the nurse calls them for something they write a new drip. “Eeny, meeny, miny, moe”, and you say you need extra training for that?

I don't think your little hyperbolic anecdote is as hard-hitting as you thought it was when you wrote it out. You don't provide any details on the pt history or what they needed, so I'll just reply back with a generalization that the average intensivist has about a thousand times more experience titrating inotropes and second line vasopressors than the average generalist.
 
I don't think your little hyperbolic anecdote is as hard-hitting as you thought it was when you wrote it out. You don't provide any details on the pt history or what they needed, so I'll just reply back with a generalization that the average intensivist has about a thousand times more experience titrating inotropes and second line vasopressors than the average generalist.
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe...
 
You know who's really good at OR anesthesia? People who do OR anesthesia.

You know who's really good at taking care of sick patients? People who take care of sick patients.

Doesn't really matter what your fellowship is... if you're excellent, you're excellent; and if you're mediocre... you probably think you're excellent anyways so who cares!?

But don't forget about the ninjas.
 
Some of the posts in this thread are just stupidity. Would expect them from premeds. I'm CCM trained and boarded but do only anesthesia now. No way I could make the money I'm making now if I were only doing CCM, not even close. People who do a CCM fellowship need to do it bc they love it, bc there really isn't a monetary reason to do it most of the time. And the vast majority who go into it do love it and can't stand the boredom and monotony of the OR. If you love the OR, why would you do something that takes you out of the OR? This isn't complicated. Use common sense. The smartest docs I've ever met are anesthesia-CCM trained. People who think their job is simple are clueless. I'm sure there are a lot of docs who think anesthesiologists are a joke but put them in our shoes and they wouldn't last a minute. Just one super sick patient in the unit can take up your entire afternoon. Now imagine you have a dozen more just as sick on your census. We're not just tubing em and putting lines in and calling it a day like you do in the OR. Those are monkey skills. Btw, my fellowship definitely helped me get the job I have now so I'm not someone you can convince that's it's not marketable.
 
Top