Surgical intern answering questions tonight (part II)

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RomanTaylor said:
This has been my favorite thread for days now, Thank you SO much for doing this!

I do have a question, if you are still offering up answers.

I am a non-trad that is very interested in surgery. Nothing fancy, just General or Cardiovascular. The question is: is there any specific research opportunities that are in line with surgery that I should be looking into during my undergraduate years? I go to a pretty research heavy university (University of Florida...go Gators), so whatever you suggest, I can probably find.

Thanks!!
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Why is GS not fancy?

I looked in this at my school (Hopkins). If you are lucky you can work on some surgical research projects and you get to assist surgeons dog surgeries which is really cool.
 
RomanTaylor said:
This has been my favorite thread for days now, Thank you SO much for doing this!

I do have a question, if you are still offering up answers.

I am a non-trad that is very interested in surgery. Nothing fancy, just General or Cardiovascular. The question is: is there any specific research opportunities that are in line with surgery that I should be looking into during my undergraduate years? I go to a pretty research heavy university (University of Florida...go Gators), so whatever you suggest, I can probably find.

Thanks!!
Click to expand...

General and CV surgery are just different fields of surgery, the training pathway is just different than ENT/Uro/Ortho etc. I don't think there is a particular area of research that is more valuable than others. I would say if you have a choice between clinical and basic science, clinical is preferred from a learning perspective, but some value basic science over it. The main question is how productive can you be in that particular lab. Are you going to 1) learn some basic skills, 2) get exposed to scientific inquiry, 3) some publications/presentations.

In the end you have to find something that is interesting to you. If you more technology driven, getting attached to a research project with a new device would be interesting. If basic science is more your thing, there are always labs loosely related to surgery.
 
Thanks for your reply to my previous question, mimelim. Also, I realized that surgeons tend to be the busiest people in the hospital. So, I hope you don't mind me asking, but what's the best way to ask a surgeon whether it is possible to shadow under him/her? Calls, emails?
 
Agent B said:
Thanks for your reply to my previous question, mimelim. Also, I realized that surgeons tend to be the busiest people in the hospital. So, I hope you don't mind me asking, but what's the best way to ask a surgeon whether it is possible to shadow under him/her? Calls, emails?
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When I wanted to shadow the summer after my first year I simply e-mailed the department chairs of 6-7 departments. All of them referred me to their education coordinator or secretary to set something up. Some of them were more receptive than others, but for the most part people were pretty chill about me hanging around their teams.
 
mimelim said:
Did one of these a month ago, people seemed to like it, so I'll do another since I have th rest of the day off as well as Sunday off. Here is the last thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=936130

I am an Integrated Vascular Surgery intern. I just finished the first 2 months of residency. Willing to answer any questions you can think of 🙂.
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How did you get matched to surgery? What kind of test scores (on the board exam) did you have? How competitive is it?
 
That is a very very tight schedule, have you ever thought about if you are going to burn out? Also, you said that being an attending surgeons is not much better, do you see any attending surgeons step back from the crazy 80hr/week to a more reasonable 50-60hr/week range?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
tn4596 said:
That is a very very tight schedule, have you ever thought about if you are going to burn out? Also, you said that being an attending surgeons is not much better, do you see any attending surgeons step back from the crazy 80hr/week to a more reasonable 50-60hr/week range?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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For real... I couldn't imagine working routine 100hr/weeks as an attending... I almost feel bad for those people
 
ScutmonkeyNJ said:
How did you get matched to surgery? What kind of test scores (on the board exam) did you have? How competitive is it?
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OP said he got 250s on step 1 and 240s on step 2. Also had lots of impressive ECs. Pretty sure he answered it on the first page.
 
ScutmonkeyNJ said:
View attachment 21124
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Prowler is right, ya know. The reason threads like this become horribly bloated and messy is because people don't read through what the OP has previously posted. Plus it's rude to ask OP to repeat herself. Also, it way faster to read through the thread then type out a question and wait for a response.
 
Echoing what others have said, are you doing anything proactively to prevent burnout, either from the long hours or from (as you have said) mostly socializing outside of work with people you see at work, too? What are your best tips for staying sane?
 
tn4596 said:
That is a very very tight schedule, have you ever thought about if you are going to burn out? Also, you said that being an attending surgeons is not much better, do you see any attending surgeons step back from the crazy 80hr/week to a more reasonable 50-60hr/week range?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

MaenadsDance said:
Echoing what others have said, are you doing anything proactively to prevent burnout, either from the long hours or from (as you have said) mostly socializing outside of work with people you see at work, too? What are your best tips for staying sane?
Click to expand...

I have two major outlets, my climbing and my wife. When I feel like I am getting overwhelmed or that I need a break from reading, I just stop. Unlike undergrad and the beginning of medical school, reading is about how much you want to learn, rather than impressing people. I try to read as much as I can, when I can. Since I know that I am pushing myself, I never feel bad taking some time off to do things when I feel like things are snowballing. I have a rule that I go climbing twice a week. That is how I stay sane. I look forward to it, I plan for it, I train for it. I don't always make it there because of work, but I have to have a damn good reason to not make it.

There are attendings that work 50-60 hours a week in surgery, but they are not at academic centers. I certainly have heard of them, but you don't get exposed to them much in residency since most people are at major academic centers for training.
 
mimelim said:
Post-undergrad:
Passed pre-clinical classes, had 2 honors.
Honored all clinical clerkships
Step 1: 250s
Step 2: 240s
Named investigator on a below knee stent trial (research)
Suture workshop instructor for 3 years
Created a digital case database for step 1 studying, ended up with ~30 authors, handful of editors, wrote the code, organized the project etc.
Syllabus editor (each pre-clinical course had a textbook that they called a syllabus)
Curriculum committee

I think those are the high points...
Click to expand...

I'm now possibly studying from a syllabus that you edited.
 
McPhee said:
Prowler is right, ya know. The reason threads like this become horribly bloated and messy is because people don't read through what the OP has previously posted. Plus it's rude to ask OP to repeat herself. Also, it way faster to read through the thread then type out a question and wait for a response.
Click to expand...

OP is male I believe. Or lesbian. Either is equally likely.
 
MiracleforMD said:
He used the term "wife" several times, so I'm gonna roll the dice and assume male.
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Male and married.


Venom5 said:
Are you afraid of contracting viral infections from blood?
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Yes. I have been stuck once in the OR. It was by another resident. We were closing a large fem-pop bypass (about 4 feet worth of incisions to close) and three of us were working rather quickly. They struck my thumb with a dirty needle and broke my skin through my gloves. Went through the standard testing on the patient and myself. Even though I knew the next morning that the patient was clear and that they were a dialysis patient, so they were routinely tested as well, getting that phone call to get my own results was pretty bad. Everyone gets stuck at some point. We play with sharp instruments too much for it to simply not happen. The risks are low and you can minimize your own risks, but the fear is always there.

Mostly that fear is productive. It keeps you from doing stupid things 😛.
 
Are all surgical sub specialties that intense (in terms of hours), especially as an attending? i would like to know especially abt ENT
 
chendricks1309 said:
its impressive but not amazing i just got out of the navy after 6 yrs and it was pretty much required to run about 2 miles in 15min or you can't be in. Now to get up and do it everyday when you don't have to says a lot about the individual.
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mos?
 
bob99 said:
Are all surgical sub specialties that intense (in terms of hours), especially as an attending? i would like to know especially abt ENT
Click to expand...

Everything is what you make of your practice, hospital based or not. There are some surgical specialties that lend themselves to being less intense, like flodhi1 mentioned, mos, is one. If you focus on office based procedures and purely elective cases, you can have a relatively benign schedule. If you are in a large group, your call will be minimal. It is hard to imagine an attending ENT working less than 50 hours a week, but that is more a guess than anything. I'd check out the ENT forums if you get a chance 🙂.
 
When you read how much information do you retain? Do you read like you would read a textbook and try to remember specific information? Or do you read things and remember because it is interesting?
 
Jas1360 said:
When you read how much information do you retain? Do you read like you would read a textbook and try to remember specific information? Or do you read things and remember because it is interesting?
Click to expand...

For me, it is all about repetition and then use of the information. My rote memorization is terrible. I got into the habit of reading something in a textbook and then spend 30 seconds thinking about how that would apply to what might happen in the hospital (a gedanken if you will). For me, that tacks that information to something that will bring that memory back later. I figured that out by doing Physics problems in undergrad. I'd read a chapter in Physics and then do a couple dozen problems applying whatever I learned. I realized very quickly that neither reading nor problems were enough on their own. While not every subject has endless problem sets to practice on right after you study something, you can find ways of integrating the information into your working knowledge.

Take home: undergrad is about developing your study skills. Figure out what works for you and then refine your skills so no matter what you end up going into, medicine or otherwise, you give yourself the best chance at knocking it out of the park.
 
mimelim said:
For me, it is all about repetition and then use of the information. My rote memorization is terrible. I got into the habit of reading something in a textbook and then spend 30 seconds thinking about how that would apply to what might happen in the hospital (a gedanken if you will). For me, that tacks that information to something that will bring that memory back later. I figured that out by doing Physics problems in undergrad. I'd read a chapter in Physics and then do a couple dozen problems applying whatever I learned. I realized very quickly that neither reading nor problems were enough on their own. While not every subject has endless problem sets to practice on right after you study something, you can find ways of integrating the information into your working knowledge.

Take home: undergrad is about developing your study skills. Figure out what works for you and then refine your skills so no matter what you end up going into, medicine or otherwise, you give yourself the best chance at knocking it out of the park.
Click to expand...

I really like your answer because I am also terrible at rote memorization. That gives me hope, considering how much there is to learn in medical school.
 
Before I ask you some real questions, I would like to know. If you were to fight drizzt, who would win? Tv shows and stereotypes suggest that the surgical resident would dominate the radiologist...
 
typicalindian said:
Before I ask you some real questions, I would like to know. If you were to fight drizzt, who would win? Tv shows and stereotypes suggest that the surgical resident would dominate the radiologist...
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In hand to hand combat, driz would win. I'm not a very big guy. Reasonably strong from rock climbing, but no formal training in fighting. I don't know if driz knows anything about firearms, but I am proficient in most handgun and longguns and if I could get away from him initially, I'd give myself the upper hand. In the hospital... I always have a 15 blade in my whitecoat pocket and am pretty good at finding people's carotids so...
 
mimelim said:
In hand to hand combat, driz would win. I'm not a very big guy. Reasonably strong from rock climbing, but no formal training in fighting. I don't know if driz knows anything about firearms, but I am proficient in most handgun and longguns and if I could get away from him initially, I'd give myself the upper hand. In the hospital... I always have a 15 blade in my whitecoat pocket and am pretty good at finding people's carotids so...
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:laugh: excellent answer
 
My brother just finished his surgery res and is now board certified. I never asked him too many questions about his res but I found out through what he told me parents. I will be honest, the first few years he absolutely hated it. He was on some 3 day straight/ one day off schedule that sounded crazy to me at the time. It wasn't until he switched hospitals and moved to Dallas that he started to like it. He became chief so that prob helped, but I want to ask you... Yiu know that pre med mentality? It's a positive and happy one. Well, it seems as If my brother went through the motions but hated it with a passion until like year 3 of residency. Do you feel the same way as an intern ? Sometimes medicine seems to make us lose our vigor. I don't want that to happen to me.
 
What's your favorite part about surgery?

And thanks a lot for your AMA!
 
Do vascular surgeons have extensive knowledge on circulatory system? Sounds stupid, I know, but I meant to imply that do vascular surgeons know cardiac surgery.
 
Agent B said:
Do vascular surgeons have extensive knowledge on circulatory system? Sounds stupid, I know, but I meant to imply that do vascular surgeons know cardiac surgery.
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Most vascular surgeons have a reasonable understanding of CV surgery since they were typically trained as general surgeons first, or in the case of integrated residents trained at major Heart and Vascular centers. But they do not do cardiac surgeries in practice. However, given that they operate on aortas, carotids, and every other blood vessel in the body not in the heart or brain, they have a pretty good knowledge of the circulatory system.
 
mimelim said:
Most vascular surgeons have a reasonable understanding of CV surgery since they were typically trained as general surgeons first, or in the case of integrated residents trained at major Heart and Vascular centers. But they do not do cardiac surgeries in practice. However, given that they operate on aortas, carotids, and every other blood vessel in the body not in the heart or brain, they have a pretty good knowledge of the circulatory system.
Click to expand...

So vascular surgeons also operate on blood vessels in arms and legs? Sounds pretty interesting.
 
mimelim said:
Post-undergrad:
Passed pre-clinical classes, had 2 honors.
Honored all clinical clerkships
Step 1: 250s
Step 2: 240s
Named investigator on a below knee stent trial (research)
Suture workshop instructor for 3 years
Created a digital case database for step 1 studying, ended up with ~30 authors, handful of editors, wrote the code, organized the project etc.
Syllabus editor (each pre-clinical course had a textbook that they called a syllabus)
Curriculum committee

I think those are the high points...
Click to expand...

Impressive. It's a long ways off for me, but I'm curious -- what are the keys to earning honors in the clinical years? I.e., what separates an honors student from one that receives a high pass?
 
rjosh33 said:
Impressive. It's a long ways off for me, but I'm curious -- what are the keys to earning honors in the clinical years? I.e., what separates an honors student from one that receives a high pass?
Click to expand...

Progressive accumulation of functional knowledge and a desire to use it for the benefit of patients. Book studying, watching residents, learning basic skills on the floor etc. are all important. Many medical students assume that their job is to study books and observe in the hospital. While this will allow you to pass every clerkship, it will not maximize your education. The best clinical students are the ones that learn skills quickly and are reliable when applying them for the benefit of their patients and their team. Residents love it when students can say, "Don't worry about that, I will take care of it." There is a steep learning curve, but challenge yourself to find the areas that you can be helpful in. If you depend on people to assign you tasks, you will invariably hurt your own chances of improving.
 
mimelim said:
Progressive accumulation of functional knowledge and a desire to use it for the benefit of patients. Book studying, watching residents, learning basic skills on the floor etc. are all important. Many medical students assume that their job is to study books and observe in the hospital. While this will allow you to pass every clerkship, it will not maximize your education. The best clinical students are the ones that learn skills quickly and are reliable when applying them for the benefit of their patients and their team. Residents love it when students can say, "Don't worry about that, I will take care of it." There is a steep learning curve, but challenge yourself to find the areas that you can be helpful in. If you depend on people to assign you tasks, you will invariably hurt your own chances of improving.
Click to expand...


Weird... So far, every situation I have ever found myself in, in which I took initiative and actually demonstrated the willingness to go a step further...I got the reputation of being a gunner and a show off, even though to me it was just about maximizing my learning. Does this kind of thinking persist at your level? Or can we expect a little more maturity in the "take responsibility for your own learning" department?
 
mimelim- I hope you do not take this the wrong way, but I honestly think you are too intelligent and driven for medicine. You would be more valued working at NASA on figuring out a viable plan for a world-wide mecca to another planet in the setting of diminishing resources or figuring out how to eliminate the $16+ trillion debt the US has. I am legitimately not sure which of the above scenarios is more likely to happen

Again, don't take it personally.
 
Freesia88 said:
Weird... So far, every situation I have ever found myself in, in which I took initiative and actually demonstrated the willingness to go a step further...I got the reputation of being a gunner and a show off, even though to me it was just about maximizing my learning. Does this kind of thinking persist at your level? Or can we expect a little more maturity in the "take responsibility for your own learning" department?
Click to expand...

Things get better. First, as you progress toward clinicals and out of the classroom, you will have less contact with your classmates and more contact with patients, students above/below you, residents, NPs, PAs, support staff etc. A lot of the 'gunner' name calling comes from people comparing you to themselves. Invariably the things that I'm talking about lighten the load off of one of those other people and they will love you for it. When a resident says, "Oh ya and we need to get the OSH records on Ms. Jones." It is an opportunity for you to learn how to get things from other institutions. The key is, you learn how to do it and learn how to do it quickly. Then the next time they say it, you can say, "I'll take care of it". It sounds stupid, but it takes some people 3 times as long to do something as simple as that and it is mainly because they don't have the practice. Then you do the same with taking out sutures, taking out staples, taking out lines, putting in lines, putting in sutures etc.

Yes, there is always the potential that there is someone at your level on your service and they will look lazy next to you. But, you aren't there to be friends with them. You are there to 1) provide the best patient care that you can at your level and 2) learn the absolute most that you can so that you can provide the best patient care that you can in the future. If you really are focusing on those goals and NOT on making sure everyone knows that you are working harder than the other guy, it will come through. You can't please everyone, but most of the 'gunner' qualities are actually good things in the hospital setting and are sought after. Just not the personality bits... [/long winded answer]
 
It's ok, I think I speak for everyone here when I say we appreciate every word.
 
😀
mimelim said:
Things get better. First, as you progress toward clinicals and out of the classroom, you will have less contact with your classmates and more contact with patients, students above/below you, residents, NPs, PAs, support staff etc. A lot of the 'gunner' name calling comes from people comparing you to themselves. Invariably the things that I'm talking about lighten the load off of one of those other people and they will love you for it. When a resident says, "Oh ya and we need to get the OSH records on Ms. Jones." It is an opportunity for you to learn how to get things from other institutions. The key is, you learn how to do it and learn how to do it quickly. Then the next time they say it, you can say, "I'll take care of it". It sounds stupid, but it takes some people 3 times as long to do something as simple as that and it is mainly because they don't have the practice. Then you do the same with taking out sutures, taking out staples, taking out lines, putting in lines, putting in sutures etc.

Yes, there is always the potential that there is someone at your level on your service and they will look lazy next to you. But, you aren't there to be friends with them. You are there to 1) provide the best patient care that you can at your level and 2) learn the absolute most that you can so that you can provide the best patient care that you can in the future. If you really are focusing on those goals and NOT on making sure everyone knows that you are working harder than the other guy, it will come through. You can't please everyone, but most of the 'gunner' qualities are actually good things in the hospital setting and are sought after. Just not the personality bits... [/long winded answer]
Click to expand...

Thank you! It is a relief to hear that down the line things do get better. Ego certainly plays a role, but sometimes you just want to be the best you can be and plumb the depths of your potential without fear of someone else getting butthurt over it.

Interesting that you mention the "you are not there to be friends with them" logic. I once got so frustrated in one of such situations (at work...) I pulled the colleague in question aside and bluntly told her that I was hired to do a job and not to prove that I am better than her or even to make friends with her , so she needed to get over whatever stick she had up her a--. She never spoke to me again 😀

RomanTaylor said:
It's ok, I think I speak for everyone here when I say we appreciate every word.
Click to expand...

Agreed!
 
i realize im late to the game with my questions but...

when considering away rotations, Im interested in moving back west after med school and all the 0+5 programs there seem a bit daunting in seems of competition. How many aways did you do...and did you include any that you may not of been as interested in but thought you might have a better shot matching. Did you do vascular elective only or gen surg subi/elective as well?

ex. Im going to a school in the tri-state area (rwjms), was considered trying to do 3 aways in cali or washington but wondering if I should drop 1 of those and add a school in the tri-state area that would know my school better. 2 ppl in the last 2 matches have gone to mt sinai.

also, any recommendations on usc/ucla/ucsf/uc davis/uw if you rotated or interviewed at any of those spots?

thanks so much
 
Bump, is this thread still open for business or has it been superseded?
 
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