Syringes without prescription

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Do you think pharmacies should sell syringe/needles without a prescription?

  • Yes! It can help prevent drug abusers from sharing needles and prevent disease transmission.

    Votes: 80 61.1%

  • I don't care, the law permits it.

    Votes: 31 23.7%

  • No! It promotes drug abuse.

    Votes: 13 9.9%

  • None of the above. I'll post my opinion below.

    Votes: 7 5.3%
  • Total voters
    131
I totally agree that syringes should be OTC and my personal opinion is that pharmacists should be open and encouraging to sell them to illegal drug users.

But I disagree with the posters saying that pharmacists don't have the "right" to deny selling them. In the US, nobody is forced to sell something to someone else. If an independent pharmacy (and we would be talking independents, I can't imagine any chain passing up the sales from OTC syringes) doesn't want to sell syringes to illegal drug users, that IS their right. It doesn't matter if it's stupid or non-productive, they don't have to sell the syringes.
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I follow the legal minimum standard. I assume everyone is using to inject illegal drugs unless they can show me proof that they aren't. If IVD use is illegal and that selling illegal drugs a crime, why shouldn't selling the paraphenalia used to inject be as well, just because it's at a bought at a pharmacy? I think you have a professional responsibility that what you are selling is not used for an illegal purpose, no matter what your ethics are. I can't get past this incongruency.
So if the customer cannot prove to me that they aren't using the syringes for a legal purpose, then they are more than welcome to try elsewhere.
 
vexchaps said:
I follow the legal minimum standard. I assume everyone is using to inject illegal drugs unless they can show me proof that they aren't. If IVD use is illegal and that selling illegal drugs a crime, why shouldn't selling the paraphenalia used to inject be as well, just because it's at a bought at a pharmacy? I think you have a professional responsibility that what you are selling is not used for an illegal purpose, no matter what your ethics are. I can't get past this incongruency.
So if the customer cannot prove to me that they aren't using the syringes for a legal purpose, then they are more than welcome to try elsewhere.
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Are you ******ed? It doesn't matter what it's being used for. The syringes are to prevent reusage and sharing needles and spread of bloodborne diseases. There is no responsibility to make sure what you are selling is being used for something illegal.
 
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vexchaps said:
I follow the legal minimum standard. I assume everyone is using to inject illegal drugs unless they can show me proof that they aren't. If IVD use is illegal and that selling illegal drugs a crime, why shouldn't selling the paraphenalia used to inject be as well, just because it's at a bought at a pharmacy? I think you have a professional responsibility that what you are selling is not used for an illegal purpose, no matter what your ethics are. I can't get past this incongruency.
So if the customer cannot prove to me that they aren't using the syringes for a legal purpose, then they are more than welcome to try elsewhere.
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You are typical of the many pharmacists who despite being on one of the most highly regulated of professions insists on
INVENTING HIS OWN STUPID LAWS
to follow.

I just don't get what you are trying to accomplish. Here is what you will accomplish:

  1. More people will get infected.
  2. More people will die. (see #1)
  3. More healthcare resources will be wasted on preventable disease state management.
  4. My taxes will go up to pay for number three.
  5. Illicit drug use will decrease by 0%

So just what do thing you will accomplish with your invented law?
 
No I'm not ******ed. but where does deregulation of selling syringes otc denote that it is exempt from falling under drug paraphenalia? Are you suggesting that syringes are not drug paraphenalia and no such laws exist for paraphenalia? I think a large part of a pharmacists job is determining whether anything they dispense, be it medication/knowledge/whatever be used appropriately. ..I am not trying to accomplish anything but follow my interpretation of the laws (note plurality) that are in place I guess OldTimer hasn't heard of paraphenalia laws either i just didnt invent them .
So to Sparda if you have no objections to syringes you sell being used for a crime if the ends justify the means, do you also have no problem with selling anything else that can used illegally, ie a pill mill doctor that just prescribes so he can continue someones disease of addiction they so dont withdrawal?
 
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vexchaps said:
No I'm not ******ed. but where does deregulation of selling syringes otc denote that it is exempt from falling under drug paraphenalia? Are you suggesting that syringes are not drug paraphenalia and no such laws exist for paraphenalia? I think a large part of a pharmacists job is determining whether anything they dispense, be it medication/knowledge/whatever be used appropriately. ..I am not trying to accomplish anything but follow my interpretation of the laws (note plurality) that are in place
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Syringes are not paraphenalia. Hell, here in NYC we have programs from the city that give out free syringes and elastic bands to be used for injecting heroin.
 
The only problems I have with selling syringes (and we sell a ton) is that it attracts the unsavory sort into the store and that tends to invite more problems. That, and I am really tired of hearing "um yeah, my grandmother sent me for syringes and I think she said...um...100 cc long tip, yeah" I would really like to find a 100 cc syringe with a 12g 3" needle and give it to them just so I can see their faces. Does anyone know where I can find one?
 
Drug paraphernalia is a term used to denote any equipment, product, or material that is modified for making, using, or concealing drugs. crack cocaine pipes, smoking masks, hashish bongs, cocaine freebase kits, syringes, roach clips for holding the burning end of a marijuana.
Syringes are paraphenalia; if they are being used for illegal drug use then wha other term appliest? Yes I am aware of needle exchange programs and clinics and such. However they are not pharmacies and are not goverened by pharmacy law. Different rules are followed I'm all for selling syringes in pharmacies if the regulations regarding OTC syringes explicity state that pharmacists are exempt from paraphenalia laws and have no need to show legitimateI use
And if pharmacies can sell syringes for criminal use, why does it have to stop at syringes? Marijuana, cocaine , sudafed, iodine, batteries, etc should be legal no questions asked because, like syringes, it doesnt matter what they're being used for according to Sparda
 
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vexchaps said:
Drug paraphernalia is a term used to denote any equipment, product, or material that is modified for making, using, or concealing drugs. crack cocaine pipes, smoking masks, hashish bongs, cocaine freebase kits, syringes, roach clips for holding the burning end of a marijuana.
Syringes are paraphenalia; if they are being used for illegal drug use then wha other term appliest? Yes I am aware of needle exchange programs and clinics and such. However they are not pharmacies and are not goverened by pharmacy law. Different rules are followed I'm all for selling syringes in pharmacies if the regulations regarding OTC syringes explicity state that pharmacists are exempt from paraphenalia laws and have no need to show legitimateI use
And if pharmacies can sell syringes for criminal use, why does it have to stop at syringes? Marijuana, cocaine , sudafed, iodine, batteries, etc should be legal no questions asked because, like syringes, it doesnt matter what they're being used for according to Sparda
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Ohh yes...because everyone buying syringes is an icky, horrible illicit drug user :rolleyes:

It's not the pharmacists job to discern who is a heroin addict or not. It's your job to provide care, promote health, and educate patients...not impose your supposed ideals :thumbdown:
 
Right it is the pharmacists job to promote health care. Is selling syringes under a pharmacist discretion to an addict to continue their disease of addiction promoting healthcare? Why are they not fully OTC then in the aisles. Why can't I have proof that what I'm selling isn't be used illegally? What ideals are you speaking of, the purpose of legitimate medical use? Why is that being questioned and mocked?
 
For good or ill, my store has a policy of not selling them without proof of medical necessity. This was a reactionary policy due to someone overdosing (and dying) in the parking lot and emergency services basically shutting down access to the store (and the grocery store sharing the parking lot) for hours.
 
For meth (ie they buying sudafed, iodine, etc) to make meth
 
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gtpederson said:
For good or ill, my store has a policy of not selling them without proof of medical necessity. This was a reactionary policy due to someone overdosing (and dying) in the parking lot and emergency services basically shutting down access to the store (and the grocery store sharing the parking lot) for hours.
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IIRC, we had this occur at my store but they OD'd in the bathroom after buying the syringes. I still sell them to whoever whenever provided they can give me an ID for putting it in the log book.
 
vexchaps said:
Right it is the pharmacists job to promote health care. Is selling syringes under a pharmacist discretion to an addict to continue their disease of addiction promoting healthcare?
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You are showing that you are a poor pharmacist. A very, very poor pharmacist. This is really very simple. There are no studies, none, zero that show selling syringes over the counter has increased the number of IV drug users, an increase in the number of IV drug user deaths, or any other untoward reaction. There are however numerous studies that show selling syringes OTC to IV drug users does decrease the spread of HIV, HEP B, cellulitis and other infectious diseases common to the IV drug user population.


vexchaps said:
Why are they not fully OTC then in the aisles.
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They are not in the OTC section, because 99.99% of the sales are by prescription. There are many OTC items stored in the pharmacy for business purposes.


vexchaps said:
Why can't I have proof that what I'm selling isn't be used illegally?
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It's not your job, You don't have a badge and a gun. The law was passed so the people who you are trying to deny the syringes to get's them. Unless there is a section in your law that gives you the authority you claim you have, don't get your panties in a bunch. THESE LAWS WERE PASSED SPECIFICALLY TO GET CLEAN SYRINGES IN THE HANDS OF IV DRUG USERS. In fact, they are being used as the law intends and that makes their use legal, even if they are being used with an illegal substance.

vexchaps said:
What ideals are you speaking of, the purpose of legitimate medical use? Why is that being questioned and mocked?
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How can you as a health professional advocate for a position with no data to backup your claim while advocating against a position with proven benefit. What you believe is something else, what is known is clear. It is clear from a public health standpoint this is a good policy. You are supposed to practice Evidence Based Medicine and you are not. Without data to backup your claim, you should just shut up and do your job. Each time you deny a drug user a syringe you are complicit in the spread of disease and death.

If there is no God, you have your own conscience to answer to, if there is a God, well I wouldn't want to be you explaining how you helped make people suffer and die earlier. Pack your warm clothes.

You are being mocked because your position is legally, morally and ethically stupid.
 
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Not sure of the exact wording of laws, but I believe that "paraphernalia" must mean that it is involved in illicit drug use. Until that use happens, it is not paraphernalia. Which is why you see stores in the mall selling bongs and vaporizers. They could be decorations, paperweights, used for tobacco, etc. It's only paraphernalia after somebody buys one and puts pot or something else illegal into it.
 
This topic proves the stereotype that very smart people are capable of thinking/doing very stupid things.
 
Strange, it seems that pharmacy is the back-up career for people who couldn't get into law enforcement.
 
BidingMyTime said:
Strange, it seems that pharmacy is the back-up career for people who couldn't get into law enforcement.
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Actually, I had taken exams for Nassau County PD and Suffolk County PD (highest paid cops in the country, $65k starting, $100k in 5 years) just in case pharmacy fell through for me.
 
This may be a "well duh" post, but anyhow...

In Vancouver BC there is a place called "Insite," that offers needles and a safe place to use them for heroin addicts. Narcan is on hand in case of ODs, alcohol wipes, sterile H2O for injection, etc. In numerous studies, Insite has been found to reduce the transmission of disease, save people from overdose and actually reduce drug addiction by providing opportunities for addicts to get into treatment programs (methadone, Suboxone etc).

Addiction is a disorder with a complex course characterized by frequent relapses. Giving them clean needles helps keep them alive and disease-free until such time as they enter treatment.

Giving addicts needles should appeal to both social conservatives and liberals. For us bleeding heart types, it's a humane intervention that saves the lives of marginalized people. For the conservatives, it saves on health care costs by reducing the need for staggeringly expensive hep C or hepatic cancer treatments.

If you are evidence-based practitioners, you should have zero opposition to this, regardless of what side of the political spectrum you come from.
 
I can understand a pharmacist not wanting drug users coming to them for their paraphernalia. It's not what you signed up for etc.

Outright opposition to needle exchange in general however is immoral and at best a crime against public health.
 
Digsbe said:
Would you not sell certain cough syrups to patients because they may potentially be abused?
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I'm sorry, I realize this was 4 months ago, but I read through this entire thread (my opinion on the matter remaining unchanged) and this is what it bothering me. In my state, Robitussin AC is OTC, but kept behind the pharmacy counter with similar requirements as PSE. If this does not apply in the PP's state, then that answers my question, but you mean to tell me you've never told, or heard the pharmacist tell, a questionable customer that you don't have any in stock, even when you do? Lemme tell you, I've never worked anywhere this hasn't happened.

Irrelevant to the discussion as a whole, yes, but I also don't equate rampant IV drug abuse to having too much Purple Drank at a house party.
 
MrsAppleseed said:
I'm sorry, I realize this was 4 months ago, but I read through this entire thread (my opinion on the matter remaining unchanged) and this is what it bothering me. In my state, Robitussin AC is OTC, but kept behind the pharmacy counter with similar requirements as PSE. If this does not apply in the PP's state, then that answers my question, but you mean to tell me you've never told, or heard the pharmacist tell, a questionable customer that you don't have any in stock, even when you do? Lemme tell you, I've never worked anywhere this hasn't happened.

Irrelevant to the discussion as a whole, yes, but I also don't equate rampant IV drug abuse to having too much Purple Drank at a house party.
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It doesn't matter. It's not your job to determine who is who. You are also doing a disservice by going against all the evidence that providing clean needles is an important public health issue.

Of course you won't change your mind because overly "righteous" people rarely do. If drug abuse is part of your mission, go be a substance abuse counselor. In the meantime, you should do your duty as a PHARMACIST.
 
rxlea said:
It doesn't matter. It's not your job to determine who is who. You are also doing a disservice by going against all the evidence that providing clean needles is an important public health issue.

Of course you won't change your mind because overly "righteous" people rarely do. If drug abuse is part of your mission, go be a substance abuse counselor. In the meantime, you should do your duty as a PHARMACIST.
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I actually firmly believe in the first option (to sell syringes without rhyme or reason), I just thought the example of cough medicine was a weird one since that actually is semi-controlled in some states. If the PP had said pretty much anything else, I wouldn't have given it a second thought.
 
MrsAppleseed said:
I actually firmly believe in the first option (to sell syringes without rhyme or reason), I just thought the example of cough medicine was a weird one since that actually is semi-controlled in some states. If the PP had said pretty much anything else, I wouldn't have given it a second thought.
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I don't know, "rampant" drug abuse in the form of shooting up or robo-frying are pretty much the same to me. Some pop pills, some smoke weed. I knew kids that huffed spray paint regularly. Now people drink hand sanitizer! :p On the individual level, the drug doesn't really matter, does it? :shrug: it's dependence and/or addiction and that's the real underlying medical issue.

I'd say mass manufacturing methamphetamine is probably a bit worse :D
 
joetrisman said:
Did you think the results would be alot different? ;)
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ALOT.png
 
Sparda29 said:
Honestly, it's ridiculous how retail pharmacists have to act like law enforcement. IMO they should get rid of those stupid rules about PSE, DXM, ephedra, etc.
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Maybe we should force PSE sales to go through police stations? "Hey honey I'm congested like crazy, mind stopping by the sheriffs office and getting me some sudafed?"

By the way, anybody else feel like a criminal when you get ID'd for DXM syrup? I really don't understand why.
 
BenJammin said:
Maybe we should force PSE sales to go through police stations? "Hey honey I'm congested like crazy, mind stopping by the sheriffs office and getting me some sudafed?"

By the way, anybody else feel like a criminal when you get ID'd for DXM syrup? I really don't understand why.
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Yeah it's pretty ridiculous. The government is ****ing out of control when it comes to drugs. I swear, its like every time someone discovers a new drug or way to get high/hallucinate/trip out/etc the government moves in fast and bans it or makes it hard to acquire the quantities needed to get high.
 
Sparda29 said:
Yeah it's pretty ridiculous. The government is ****ing out of control when it comes to drugs. I swear, its like every time someone discovers a new drug or way to get high/hallucinate/trip out/etc the government moves in fast and bans it or makes it hard to acquire the quantities needed to get high.
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Well, there is always hand sanitizer, mouthwash, paint, and glue.
 
Jack Kerouac apparently wrote On the Road with the assistance of bennies, or old school nasal inhalers that were regular amphetamines that have been subsequently changed. In retrospect, I can sort of see the schizo side of amphetamines in his writings. He allegedly wrote the whole book on one sheet of paper and handed it to his editor that way (it was on a sheet roll).
 
joetrisman said:
Jack Kerouac apparently wrote On the Road with the assistance of bennies, or old school nasal inhalers that were regular amphetamines that have been subsequently changed. In retrospect, I can sort of see the schizo side of amphetamines in his writings. He allegedly wrote the whole book on one sheet of paper and handed it to his editor that way (it was on a sheet roll).
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Wasn't a fan :thumbdown:
 
BenJammin said:
Why don't you just come out and say what you want to say instead of beating around the bush?
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One of two things going on here:

  • You have been practicing for a long time and are just an old fashioned 24 carat solid gold *****. Not much I can do about that. You are like the flat earthers that think the world is 6000 years old and people and dinosaurs coexisted. No amount of logic or facts would convince you your position was untenable.
  • You are a relatively new pharmacist and I help you learn something. But It works best if I help you figure it our for yourself rather than tell you the answer.
 
Old Timer said:
One of two things going on here:

  • You are a relatively new pharmacist and I help you learn something. But It works best if I help you figure it our for yourself rather than tell you the answer.
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Exactly. You're full of crap. Bringing nothing to the table as usual.
 
Old Timer said:
One of two things going on here:

  • You have been practicing for a long time and are just an old fashioned 24 carat solid gold *****. Not much I can do about that. You are like the flat earthers that think the world is 6000 years old and people and dinosaurs coexisted. No amount of logic or facts would convince you your position was untenable.
  • You are a relatively new pharmacist and I help you learn something. But It works best if I help you figure it our for yourself rather than tell you the answer.
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Is this about "protecting the precious children from the dangers of of misuse of drugs"?
 
I work in a ghetto area. We have found syringes in our parking lot and store bathroom. I need an injectable drug in your profile or be able to verify you're on insulin by seeing the bottle labeled with your name before I'm selling any.
 
wezvidz said:
I work in a ghetto area. We have found syringes in our parking lot and store bathroom. I need an injectable drug in your profile or be able to verify you're on insulin by seeing the bottle labeled with your name before I'm selling any.
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How many people have you gotten to quit IVDA this way? :thumbup:
 
wezvidz said:
I work in a ghetto area. We have found syringes in our parking lot and store bathroom. I need an injectable drug in your profile or be able to verify you're on insulin by seeing the bottle labeled with your name before I'm selling any.
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Keeping the ghetto full of HIV and Hep C, among other things, I see :smuggrin:
 
spacecowgirl said:
How many people have you gotten to quit IVDA this way? :thumbup:
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The day that a drug user comes into a pharmacy praising the pharmacist for "curing" him of addiction because they wouldn't sell him/her needles, is the day unicorns really **** rainbows...while flying.
 
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