Tail Coverage

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jr264

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Hi,

I graduated last year from residency and have been working in PP in D.C. After working for one year in this group, I am planning on switching jobs and moving to Chicago. However, my current group does not pay for my tail coverage and it is my responsibility. It turns out the tail coverage is 230% of first year premium and it turn out of be $30K. My new employer is not willing to pick up my tail coverage since thier malpractice carrier doesn't write in the District of Coumbia.:meanie:

I will have to pay for my tail coverage as I leave this group in D.C. Wondering how people have delt with this complicated issue. The tail coverage is very expensive and doesn't really serve me in any way.

thanks for your helpful advice.
 
Hi,

I will have to pay for my tail coverage as I leave this group in D.C. Wondering how people have delt with this complicated issue. The tail coverage is very expensive and doesn't really serve me in any way.


I would not say that it doesn't serve you in any way. It covers you in the event of a lawsuit related to your time in DC. What is the statute of limitations in DC for medical malpractice suits? Probably a couple years. If you didn't have the tail and got sued after you left, you'd be on the hook for every dollar.
 
Hi,

I graduated last year from residency and have been working in PP in D.C. After working for one year in this group, I am planning on switching jobs and moving to Chicago. However, my current group does not pay for my tail coverage and it is my responsibility. It turns out the tail coverage is 230% of first year premium and it turn out of be $30K. My new employer is not willing to pick up my tail coverage since thier malpractice carrier doesn't write in the District of Coumbia.:meanie:

I will have to pay for my tail coverage as I leave this group in D.C. Wondering how people have delt with this complicated issue. The tail coverage is very expensive and doesn't really serve me in any way.

thanks for your helpful advice.

I don't have any helpful advice, but I'm just sickened by your $13,000 first year premium. My first year premium in California (a tort reform state) was $1600 last year. It's up to $2400 this year. Maturity at 5 years is about $9500. I have an individual policy I pay myself.

And those health reform wankers think tort reform isn't important.
 
I don't have any helpful advice, but I'm just sickened by your $13,000 first year premium. My first year premium in California (a tort reform state) was $1600 last year. It's up to $2400 this year. Maturity at 5 years is about $9500. I have an individual policy I pay myself.

And those health reform wankers think tort reform isn't important.

What are California's tort laws that keep the premiums low? Do they just limit punitive damages, or do they have mediation provisions?
 
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What're California's tort laws that keep the premiums low? Do they just limit punitive damages, or do they have mediation provisions?

I confess I'm not intimately familiar with it, but there is binding arbitration and other highlights are
- cap on punitive and "pain & suffering" damages ($250K I think)
- payments are spread out over time, greatly reducing one-time upfront payouts (and the lawyers' incentives)
- lawyers' fees are regulated in some manner too

In fairness there's some evidence that other insurance reform had greater effect on malpractice premiums here.
 
Occurrence premiums are 26-34K in NY area. Supposedly the 34K company (MLMN) will fight for you instead of settling, as the company offering lower prices often does.
 
The moment to worry about tail is before joining a group. Now you have no option but to pay it. Hopefully you will not make the same mistake in your new job. I have heard of tails up to 50k.
 
I don't think I could have ever negotiated my contract where the group would pay the tail. I know we wouldn't offer that to new partners. I know that's one of the big items people advise you to negotiate for, but I'm not certain many good practices are so hard up they'd need to offer. Hell, most of the best practices do even advertise their openings.

I agree though if you can get it, certainly do; Now one of my partners mentioned another type of malpractice coverage you can get aside from tail from the "future" insurance company you'd be using when you switch jobs. Anybody heard of somethiNg like that? He said it was significantly cheaper.
 
I don't think I could have ever negotiated my contract where the group would pay the tail. I know we wouldn't offer that to new partners. I know that's one of the big items people advise you to negotiate for, but I'm not certain many good practices are so hard up they'd need to offer. Hell, most of the best practices do even advertise their openings.

I agree though if you can get it, certainly do; Now one of my partners mentioned another type of malpractice coverage you can get aside from tail from the "future" insurance company you'd be using when you switch jobs. Anybody heard of somethiNg like that? He said it was significantly cheaper.
Its called a nose policy. It depends on the insurance company and how long a time period they are covering. There appear to be two types. One is like a tail but it works for claims from acts prior to the new policy (hence the term nose). It usually costs the same as the first years policy. The other type of nose doesn't need a separate check but puts you in the same year of maturity as your old policy. For example if you had two years with the old policy and bought a nose policy you would pay as if you had three years maturity with the new instead of one. Either way might be cheaper/less cash out of pocket. Not all companies offer nose policies.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Tail coverage is unfortunately a necessary evil.

When joining a group, it may not feel like the best time to discuss tail but issues like this are best dealt with up front.

30K stinks and it sounds like a lot. I have heard that a typical tail coverage is 3x your premium. The cost goes up the longer you work for a group because although you are more experienced, you have more potential claims that can be filed against you.

If you have an occurrence policy you need not worry about the tail, because you are covered for any claim that occurs while you are employed. These policies are more expensive though - the one quote I have seen was near $15K a year.
 
When joining a group, it may not feel like the best time to discuss tail but issues like this are best dealt with up front.

In 20 years I've never ever remotely considered any job that wasn't either occurence based or tail provided. Feeling funny about asking the specifics of insurance coverage is like not wanting to know how much you'll be paid. I never came across one group that felt asking about the insurance coverage was a "bad question to ask" when applying. In fact, if someone doesn't want to discuss the insurance specifics, that's a HUGE red flag to RUN out the door.
 
Hello,

For 22 years I was in private practice on my own in a practice where each anesthesiologist was insured independently. There was no "group" coverage or "group" policy or "group" anything. When I left my independent private practice and started working on salary for a semi-private group with a whole-group policy, they didn't cover for occurrences related to my previous practice, hence I had to buy tail and pay for it on my own. The insurance company worked out an installment plan and I was able to pay it in quarterly installments instead of a big chunk all at once. It was still painful, but not as bad as it could have been to pay it all together. Maybe you can work out some type of plan like that.

Regarding the need or not of tail coverage, you have no choice: you have to buy it. If you don't get tail, you are gambling your life away.

Greetings
 
In 20 years I've never ever remotely considered any job that wasn't either occurence based or tail provided. Feeling funny about asking the specifics of insurance coverage is like not wanting to know how much you'll be paid. I never came across one group that felt asking about the insurance coverage was a "bad question to ask" when applying. In fact, if someone doesn't want to discuss the insurance specifics, that's a HUGE red flag to RUN out the door.

Agree. I don't think this is something that new grads tend to think about a lot though when searching for a job though.
 
I don't think I could have ever negotiated my contract where the group would pay the tail. I know we wouldn't offer that to new partners. I know that's one of the big items people advise you to negotiate for, but I'm not certain many good practices are so hard up they'd need to offer. Hell, most of the best practices do even advertise their openings.

I agree though if you can get it, certainly do; Now one of my partners mentioned another type of malpractice coverage you can get aside from tail from the "future" insurance company you'd be using when you switch jobs. Anybody heard of somethiNg like that? He said it was significantly cheaper.


I agree. I did not negotiate tail coverage either and I feel like I have a pretty good job. The problem is that the current anesthesia market is tight and I think that most of the good practices are not hard up; therefore, they do not have to offer tail coverage because they know that they can find someone to take the position if you don't. As the market tightens so do "perks".
 
Its called a nose policy. It depends on the insurance company and how long a time period they are covering. There appear to be two types. One is like a tail but it works for claims from acts prior to the new policy (hence the term nose). It usually costs the same as the first years policy. The other type of nose doesn't need a separate check but puts you in the same year of maturity as your old policy. For example if you had two years with the old policy and bought a nose policy you would pay as if you had three years maturity with the new instead of one. Either way might be cheaper/less cash out of pocket. Not all companies offer nose policies.

David Carpenter, PA-C

Yep, the other alternative (instead of buying a tail) is to buy a "nose policy"

My sister left her group in Suburban Maryland and her tail was $40K. That was for a 1/3 million policy. She royally got screwed in the whole partnership track...long story but she's not the only one the group has screwed in the past.

Anyways, she ended up purchasing a "nose" policy. It only covered 250/750K. But it saved her a lot of money. She paid $10K for the nose policy.

For all those "rookie" attendings or those who don't know how to negotiate. Pay close attention to tail coverage.

If I am on a partnership track:
Ask for tail coverage if you don't become a partner. Don't take the group's word..."oh once you become a partner, your tail will be covered" This is a red flag warning.

Fair groups will do something like this: 2 year parternship track
If you leave within 1 year, you pay the tail, If you leave between years 1-2, the group splits the tail with you 50/50. If you leave after 2 years (you are a partner at that time), the group pays the entire tail. That's the fairest negotiation tactic. If any group doesn't agree to this, I terminate contract discussions.

I hope future graduating residents read this message board. Because so many of them are clueless about tail coverage. It's a lot of money we are dealing with here. I am lucky to have older siblings in anesthesia. So I have helped my friends out with their contracts.

When you do the math (assuming most tail coverage is 2.5X the last premiums), there's really no cost savings paying occurrence vs. claims. With occurrence you end up paying it all up front while tail (obviously you pay at the end). But people who end up with tail usually don't reserve extra cash to pay for tail coverage so there's a sticker shock.

As for California, I am surprise you got a policy for $1600 for the first year. It's usually (cause my brother is out there), $5000, $7500, $9500, $11000, and than matures around $14000-15000. That's for a 1/3 million policy with claims made.

To the OP, I have worked in DC before. $30K for a tail coverage for only 1 year sounds excessive to me. Was it a 1/3 million policy or were they paying for a 3/5 million policy? Your first year claims made policy should have only been around $7K max....2.5X 7K should be around $18K for the tail after one year.

Last time I worked in DC, my hospital paid occurrence and I know for a fact that the policy was around $25K, this was in 2008 for a 1/3 million policy.
 
I confess I'm not intimately familiar with it, but there is binding arbitration and other highlights are
- cap on punitive and "pain & suffering" damages ($250K I think)
- payments are spread out over time, greatly reducing one-time upfront payouts (and the lawyers' incentives)
- lawyers' fees are regulated in some manner too

In fairness there's some evidence that other insurance reform had greater effect on malpractice premiums here.

It will be interesting to see how long the caps hold. Georgia's Supreme Court ruled the non-economic caps unconstitutional this year, so you can bet lawyers in other states will be looking hard at the arguments used in that decision to aid in their appeals. Malpractice rates in Georgia are already heading back up.
 
It will be interesting to see how long the caps hold. Georgia's Supreme Court ruled the non-economic caps unconstitutional this year, so you can bet lawyers in other states will be looking hard at the arguments used in that decision to aid in their appeals. Malpractice rates in Georgia are already heading back up.

I'm lucky, my last job paid the tail when I left and the current one is occurrence. It makes things easy if I get bored here.
This is not some taboo subject that should not be discussed and/or negotiated. It's just like salary and vacation. Not the first question, but you need the numbers if they are serious about you.
 
This may be a stupid question but how do you negotiate a tail? If you leave, do they pay it for x number of years based on the statute of limitations with regard time that patients can sue you?
 
Another view to consider: A good malpractice lawyer will NEVER sue you unless you have insurance. They are not really interested in your money. Just the insurance company and to the limits of your liability.
 
Another view to consider: A good malpractice lawyer will NEVER sue you unless you have insurance. They are not really interested in your money. Just the insurance company and to the limits of your liability.

Well let's think about that. They want $ for themselves and their client. If your limit is 1M, do you think that they'll stop there? I have some nice toys, a large house, partial interest in a couple other properties, a slush fund, and several retirement and college accounts. They are worth far more than my insurance. I know that some assets are safe and some states protect some types of assets, but I'm sure I have enough at risk to make it worth their while. Let's not forget the millions that I will earn over the next 10 years. I'm sure a jury would be happy to consider my future earnings in their settlement. My wife also has some assets which may or may not be at risk based on state law. I'll not be leaving a job w/o coverage. Don't forget that kids can sue up to age 18. Fortunately we have electronic records recording everything. It makes me feel better, but I'm sure it worries many. No more "creative" documentation.
Asset protection is something to seriously review when you finally have enough to protect. Find an expert in your state, and if you move, get your plan reviewed in the new state.
Tort reform is being overturned, so expect more $1M+ pain and suffering awards coming to your formerly safe state. That, unfortunately, will also result in your Tail increasing.
 
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First post. Possible troll.

To your point: Assuming that you have no insurance, and no assets and no income or income potential, I would say MAYBE. More likely they would still sue you and just get a default judgement. They won't have to spend much money to win since you have no money to pay for a legal defense. If you have money to find to pay a efense lawyer, you have money that is worth going after.

the best asset protection is adequate liability insurance.

Probably a malpractice attny!:laugh:
I completely forgot about the legal representation. W/O a tail, you're paying for all those costs, experts, etc out of your own pocket. And up front.
 
I don't have any helpful advice, but I'm just sickened by your $13,000 first year premium. My first year premium in California (a tort reform state) was $1600 last year. It's up to $2400 this year. Maturity at 5 years is about $9500. I have an individual policy I pay myself.

And those health reform wankers think tort reform isn't important.

What carrier is it? I plan to buy my own malpractice insurance.

Thanks
 
Lots of docs go naked in south Florida. You can also think about the cases you did over the last year before paying for tail. Every claim is not a million bucks. Another consideration is to try to keep the same malpractice carrier when changing jobs. Yes the tail surprises many new grads--it's unfortunate, and I suspect a poorly advertised "necessity" to those entering the force. Bottom line, however, is it is not necessarily mandatory. Maybe well advised, maybe not.
 
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