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TCOM over MSU-CHM (MD)?
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Sent you a PM.
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Regardless of your numbers, I personally know NYCOMers (DOs) who matched to yale radiology last year and anesthesia and pathology the year before. I also know NYCOMers who went to Hopkins for medicine in the past few years. I haven't looked at lists, nor do I care as I know this to be fact and don't just look at statistics and attempt to form uneducated opinions without thinking 'why'. Matchlists are worthless as several people have pointed out to you in the past. You don't know how many DOs applied to any of these places nor do you know if any of the DO applicants were qualified. As long as you have nothing to do, can you look up the other 200 IM programs and tell us how many DOs are in each?
Thank you for explaining the competitiveness of fellowships to a resident. Aren't you already in medical school? Why are you still so obsessed with "well-known" programs and name recognition? Why are you so concerned with what others think of you? If a DO wants to go into GI or Cardiology, there are plenty of opportunities for qualified applicants. SUNY downstate takes their own for fellowship, as does SUNY stonybrook just to name a few I'm familiar with. Check out St. Lukes in NYC as well as Lenox Hill and NYHQ. There are plenty of others in the Northeast. I don't know or care where they fall in US world and news report rankings because I never cared what other people thought of a residency if I'm the one who has to train in it for 3 years. All "DO-friendly" and take their own with Cards and GI. How many DOs want GI and Cards? Who knows (keep the bolded in mind when you start googling how many DOs are in fellowships in the US - tell me I can't predict the future!). I'd rather repeat all 4 years of medical school than do colonoscopies all day, but apparently all DOs secretly want GI, Cards, Plastics, Ortho <rolls eyes>. You really don't know what you're talking about so you should stop making blind assumptions based on statistics and what you think you know.
I don't see any MDs in DO residencies. The data is astoundingly obvious, so I guess I can conclude that MDs aren't smart enough for them? Or should I think about a reason WHY this is the case? Data is there. Whether you interpret it with logic vs. bias is a different story. You are interpreting it from the biased side and passing it on as fact.
People fight hand over fist because you are spreading misinformation to naive pre-meds.
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I'll pick-up where InStateWaiter left-off
Michigan--0 DOs, although they have a few IMGs http://www.med.umich.edu/intmed/resident/about/current.htm
Michigan Gas only offers PGY-2 spot outside the match to DO students http://anes.med.umich.edu/main/programs/residency/selection.html
To the OP, you might realize while in med school that you want to go into research, so let's look at several programs:
Doris Duke:
"Are students at osteopathic medical schools eligible to apply?
If you are a student at a U.S. osteopathic school of medicine, please check with individual CRF school(s) of interest before you apply. Some schools do accept applications from osteopathic medical students, while others may not."
HHMI Cloister: 1 DO in 2007, 1 DO in 2008
Sarnoff: DO's are not eligible, but even if 'medical school' includes osteopathic schools (I mention this because HHMI lists medical school and osteopathic school seperately), they have never selected a DO student
"The Sarnoff Fellowship Program offers medical students enrolled in accredited U.S. medical schools the opportunity to spend a year conducting intensive work in a biomedical research laboratory in the United States, other than the medical school in which they are enrolled."
To the OP: why did UNT decide to start a new allopathic school, and why was KCOM trying to get accrediation for an MD, DO dual degree program
Michigan--0 DOs, although they have a few IMGs http://www.med.umich.edu/intmed/resident/about/current.htm
Michigan Gas only offers PGY-2 spot outside the match to DO students http://anes.med.umich.edu/main/programs/residency/selection.html
To the OP, you might realize while in med school that you want to go into research, so let's look at several programs:
Doris Duke:
"Are students at osteopathic medical schools eligible to apply?
If you are a student at a U.S. osteopathic school of medicine, please check with individual CRF school(s) of interest before you apply. Some schools do accept applications from osteopathic medical students, while others may not."
HHMI Cloister: 1 DO in 2007, 1 DO in 2008
Sarnoff: DO's are not eligible, but even if 'medical school' includes osteopathic schools (I mention this because HHMI lists medical school and osteopathic school seperately), they have never selected a DO student
"The Sarnoff Fellowship Program offers medical students enrolled in accredited U.S. medical schools the opportunity to spend a year conducting intensive work in a biomedical research laboratory in the United States, other than the medical school in which they are enrolled."
To the OP: why did UNT decide to start a new allopathic school, and why was KCOM trying to get accrediation for an MD, DO dual degree program
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How many DOs applied and what were their stats?
Um, yes. You need to do a prelim year for most (all?) anesthesia residencies. That means you start at PGY-2 wherever you go. The fact that it's outside the match just means if they like you, you get the spot. If they don't, they you go to the match for other programs. It's essentially a pre-match offer except for a PGY-2 position. DOs and IMGs are allowed to sign residency contracts outside the match whereas allopathic seniors cannot.
How many DOs applied for it? I'd be willing to bet far fewer osteopathic students are heavily interested in research, but I can only speak for my classmates from my year. If only 2 per year applied, then not a bad match rate, eh? There's no way to know.
How many DOs have applied for it? I've never even heard of Sarnoff, nor have I heard of any of my DO colleagues applying for it. It's easy to not be selected if you don't apply, no?
Yes, clearly this will prevent any DO student from doing research if they suddenly decide they are interested in it
You guys are grasping at straws while your own personal underlying bias towards DOs is guiding your posts. All you've done is show that there are no doors closed for qualified applicants.
I'll be sure to keep all this great advice in mind when I'm cashing my paycheck from my allopathic residency next week.
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Lol now you guys are grasping at straws. All you've done is show that there are no doors closed for qualified DOs.
Oh, and as a practicing DO resident, I don't know how I'm going to live knowing that I won't be accepted for the sarnoff fellowship program
I seriously would not consider this to be grasping at straws. The point we're trying to make is not that you can't reach an end point (being an attending), it's that the options available to you along the way are not the same
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The options above were available though, as you've pretty much shown that there were DOs in every point that you made. You just don't know how many wanted those spots to begin with. You guys are still in the pre-med mindset that everybody wants the same things you do and everybody needs name recognition. This is not the case. That's not meant to be an insult directed towards you, it's just reality.
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You don't know how many DOs applied to any of these places nor do you know if any of the DO applicants were qualified. As long as you have nothing to do, can you look up the other 200 IM programs and tell us how many DOs are in each?
You really don't know what you're talking about so you should stop making blind assumptions based on statistics and what you think you know.
You can explain it away however you want to. The fact of the matter is, the data completely supports the idea that if you want your options to be completely open, DO is not the way to go. So for that reason, if the OP feels like the programs are essentially the same, he should go to MSU.
I keep providing data and you keep dismissing it with conjecture. Note that I keep providing data to support what I say.
You are right, you don't see MDs in DO residencies because literally 0 apply; they are kept for DO students alone. Of course, why would MD students want them? Even the majority of DO students don't want to train in osteopathic programs. Most DO students opt to train in MD residencies. A study was done on why DOs opt for ACGME (MD) residency 46% of seniors cited better training in the ACGME training and 35% or seniors said it would open up more career opportunities. And that was from DO students.
Only 12% of freshman coming into DO programs felt like the training was better on the MD side. However, after going through training, 4 times that felt like the training would be better. It's hard to make this stuff up. http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/Documents/studentreport2004.pdf (page 40)
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I agree with you 100%: I'm biased because I think everyone wants to go into research, too
I'm coming from the viewpoint that the OP might one day decide that he wants to go into academic research, in which case the process is easier via MD. On the other hand, the OP might decide that he wants to go into private practice. None of us can answer this question
My family doctor growing up was a DO, my current physician is a DO, my father used to work at an Osteopathic hospital, my dad is in practice with several DOs, I've shadowed DOs, and I have good friends at PCOM and CCOM. I truly believe that reagrdless of which school the OP goes to, he can become an excellent physician. I just thinks he needs to be aware of the baggage assocaited with each degree so he can make the best decission for himself
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I agree with you 100%: I'm biased because I think everyone wants to go into research, too
I'm coming from the viewpoint that the OP might one day decide that he wants to go into academic research, in which case the process is easier via MD. On the other hand, the OP might decide that he wants to go into private practice. None of us can answer this question
My family doctor growing up was a DO, my current physician is a DO, my father used to work at an Osteopathic hospital, my dad is in practice with several DOs, I've shadowed DOs, and I have good friends at PCOM and CCOM. I truly believe that reagrdless of which school the OP goes to, he can become an excellent physician. I just thinks he needs to be aware of the baggage assocaited with each degree so he can make the best decission for himself
That said, Michigan is a frozen wasteland which I am desperately trying to leave. It's frequently below 0F here in January. Think about what that feels like with windchill. As a former Canadian, I'm not unprepared for the cold.However,people die in that kind of weather. Have you ever seen any documentaries about Everest? Think about it.
It doesn't get much better for the rest of the year either.
Just saying.
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The data can also support the idea that zero DOs applied for those programs. The data also can support that DO students aren't as academically qualified for the positions. You can make any number of assumptions based on data (which is what you are doing). The fact remains you don't know how many DOs wanted or applied for spots in each individual program that they ultimately didn't get, nor do you know if they were competitive for these spots. For all you know, zero DOs could've applied to one of the programs that have zero DO residents.
<sigh> You love the whole "all things being equal" argument. That's not reality my friend. Programs are never the same. Applicants are never the same. That's just not reality. You go to medical school to become a doctor in a certain field. If you are qualified, you will do this as an MD or DO. We've already debunked your myth that you need to go to a top 10 or top 20 IM residency to grab a GI or Cardio fellowship. In the OP's case, he said MSU and TCOM aren't the same, which is why he's leaning towards TCOM. You dismissed his concerns though because name recognition and initials are more important to you than cost and facilities. That's fine, nobody is judging you and your decisions. But the OP wants unbiased advice, which it doesn't seem you are able to provide. You nor I nor anyone else needs to tell the OP what he "should" do. Cheshyre hinted above that climate would play into his decision. Not everyone has the same priorities you do.
Wrong. You are providing data and then making an assumption to draw a <biased> conclusion. You are assuming that an equal number of DO and MD students apply to each program, and you assume that each DO student is equally as qualified as each MD student. Again, you are living outside of reality. This is not the case.
Exactly. See what you did? You interpreted the data with logic and considered variables. Now try to do the same thing in reverse when DO students apply to MD residencies. Get it? I'll start you off: not everyone wants to do residency in the program with the most prestigious name.
You missed the point (which I made above). Whether or not MDs would want to train in osteopathic residencies wasn't the issue at all. But interestingly enough you did get defensive and allow your anti-DO bias to shine through again.
Your bias is making you misinterpret data. First of all, the data does NOT say that those 46% believe the training was subpar during their 4 years of DO school. It says they believe an allopathic residency program would provide better training after medical school. That means 54% believe osteopathic residency opportunities are just fine. That's their personal opinion and since they rotated through MD and DO clerkships during 3rd and 4th years they can make an informed decision. You conveniently left out the other reasons people cite for choosing an allopathic residency, such as family considerations, shorter training period in some specialties, and location.
You sure do spend a good amount of time looking up statistics and reading 50 page reports from 2004 to attempt to bash the DO profession. In the meantime you've turned this into yet another general MD vs DO debate that's about ripe for closing. Congrats 👍
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Just to start another argument:
Not true, unless you are from the UP, where no med schools are.
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J1515, I can't believe you say DOs are not at any disadvantage, let me put a personal twist on this. A friend of mine, a 4th year at my school, is going through the match. He is pretty much a stud, probably top 10% of his class, 248 step I, 715 Comlex. The guy has done some research, whatever was available at my school. He applies MD Ophtho and only gets 4 interviews, 2 of them where he rotated. He didn't even apply to any top programs, all mid to low tier and still only 4 interviews. Obviously he didn't match Ophtho. Good thing he applied EM as a back up so he still has another match to go.
You think he still would have gotten only 4 interviews if he was attending an allopathic school, when average step I score for Ophtho is around 235? I reckon he probably would have matched at a top Ophtho program with his resume and would have had more interviews than he possibly could have attended. Now does that mean a DO couldn't land an MD Ophtho spot? no! I am sure some DO matched MD ophtho, however, it sure as heck means that you are at a significant disadvantage compared to MD students.
When I said I am a DO student with no regrets, I meant that I have already come to terms with this fact. I chose this because this what was available to me and I fully knew the limitations, hence no regrets. If I had been accepted to an MD school, heck yeah I would have taken it in a heart beat. I think pre-meds should understand both bright and dark side of going DO route. Yes, you will have an opportunity to become a licensed physician with plenty of opportunities, however, you will face an uphill battle if you decide to venture in certain fields on the allopathic side.
You think he still would have gotten only 4 interviews if he was attending an allopathic school, when average step I score for Ophtho is around 235? I reckon he probably would have matched at a top Ophtho program with his resume and would have had more interviews than he possibly could have attended. Now does that mean a DO couldn't land an MD Ophtho spot? no! I am sure some DO matched MD ophtho, however, it sure as heck means that you are at a significant disadvantage compared to MD students.
When I said I am a DO student with no regrets, I meant that I have already come to terms with this fact. I chose this because this what was available to me and I fully knew the limitations, hence no regrets. If I had been accepted to an MD school, heck yeah I would have taken it in a heart beat. I think pre-meds should understand both bright and dark side of going DO route. Yes, you will have an opportunity to become a licensed physician with plenty of opportunities, however, you will face an uphill battle if you decide to venture in certain fields on the allopathic side.
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Jeeze these threads always turn into the same thing, might as well copy and paste your posts from last weeks thread in here save yourself the time.
OP, you asked whether or not to choose a DO school over an MD school in a pre-DO forum ... wtf kind of response do you think your going to get? The same goes for posting it in a pre-MD forum...all in all one thing is pretty set in stone - the 35+ MCATers would never pick a DO school because they will get into multiple MD programs and the 25 MCATers will choose DO because they didn't get into any MD programs. I don't get why these on the border people always find these decisions so difficult. If your parents are paying then cost is not a factor, who cares. Me personally would go MSU why would you want to take the comlex?
OP, you asked whether or not to choose a DO school over an MD school in a pre-DO forum ... wtf kind of response do you think your going to get? The same goes for posting it in a pre-MD forum...all in all one thing is pretty set in stone - the 35+ MCATers would never pick a DO school because they will get into multiple MD programs and the 25 MCATers will choose DO because they didn't get into any MD programs. I don't get why these on the border people always find these decisions so difficult. If your parents are paying then cost is not a factor, who cares. Me personally would go MSU why would you want to take the comlex?
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Not this winter, true. I exaggerated, but, even one 0F day is too much. It's branded into my memory.
I'm typing this from the east side of the state where there's absolutely no lake effect. It definitely was below 0F more than a few times last winter and at least twice this year. I know because I commuted by bike almost every day.
Edit: whoops, I said "what it feels like with windchill" earlier. It's below 0F with windchill, especially when the winds are strong as the sun rises.
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I'm a 35S MCAT who's picking a DO school.
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Your friend closed his own doors by neglecting the DO match. It's that simple. Ophtho is competitive regardless of the letters after your name and you need to maximize your chances. There are MD students with his stats who don't make it, and the fact that he even received 4 interviews goes to show you that his doors weren't closed in the allopathic world as some would like you to believe. I didn't say that DOs were on equal footing with MDs when it comes to certain competitive allopathic specialties. But that is compensated for by the DO-only residencies. His stats most likely would've gotten him a spot through the osteopathic match. He would've become an ophthalmologist in the end but I guess he didn't want it that badly.
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Slightly lower MCAT here but I picked a DO school as well.
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That is exactly what I suggested to him but he is adamant that DO residencies are inferior to ACGME residencies in training which I think is a little misguided. I agree that DO residencies somewhat compensate the fact that DOs are not on equal footing with MDs in ACGME residencies. So, for a person like my friend, MD all the way!
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Instate ... there various matchlists that 'blow' certain DO schools out of the water, that one from MSU was not one of them ... by FAR.
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... continued:
Instate, since you decided to take the pre-med route, LOL, and bring match lists into the equation, I'm going to do the pre-med thing and judge them by ROADS:
Rads: TCOM -5, MSU -3
Ophtha: TCOM -0, MSU -1
Anes: TCOM -2, MSU -4
Derm: TCOM -0 (impossible to tell though bc of AOA match), MSU -2
Surg Subs:
ENT: TCOM -1, MSU -0
Ortho: TCOM -2, MSU -3
Neuro: TCOM -0, MSU -0
Uro: TCOM - 2, MSU - 0
Totals: TCOM = 12, MSU = 13 ....
Pretty comparable TBH, especially because I think the class sizes are similar ... I'm not going to count, and the fact that MSU didn't have certain matches like Uro and ENT, and you can't see AOA derm from a match list. It also goes to show how match lists are worthless ...
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7635532&postcount=6
Instate, since you decided to take the pre-med route, LOL, and bring match lists into the equation, I'm going to do the pre-med thing and judge them by ROADS:
Rads: TCOM -5, MSU -3
Ophtha: TCOM -0, MSU -1
Anes: TCOM -2, MSU -4
Derm: TCOM -0 (impossible to tell though bc of AOA match), MSU -2
Surg Subs:
ENT: TCOM -1, MSU -0
Ortho: TCOM -2, MSU -3
Neuro: TCOM -0, MSU -0
Uro: TCOM - 2, MSU - 0
Totals: TCOM = 12, MSU = 13 ....
Pretty comparable TBH, especially because I think the class sizes are similar ... I'm not going to count, and the fact that MSU didn't have certain matches like Uro and ENT, and you can't see AOA derm from a match list. It also goes to show how match lists are worthless ...
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7635532&postcount=6
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Gotchya. If he rotated through a bunch of DO residencies during 4th year and decided he didn't like them, then that's his prerogative. If he didn't rotate through any of them and is basing his opinion on hearsay, then he deserved what he got. Like I said (and I think you would agree), he obviously didn't want to be an ophthalmologist that badly. For people who do go the DO route and truly want to do ophtho, the opportunities are there.
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I like it! Data!
TCOM's match list is good, and probably one of the best I have seen on the DO side. The TCOM class size is about 25% larger but none the less, does seem to put up some good matches. Nonetheless, MSU is stronger, esp when you consider the less competitive programs like good matches in IM. For instance
TCOM have 2 strong IM matches (iowa and baylor)
MSU has 7 Chicago, Michigan, UVA, The Brigham, mayo clinic x 3
I couldn't find the 2009 match for MSU so you should probably compare the two 2006 lists rather than a 2008 and a 2006 list.
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The majority of residents who have been through the process agree.
Unbelieveable that you've made it through medical school and are still so obsessed with prestige and names...How do you know anyone from TCOM applied to Chicago, Michigan, UVA, Brigham, or Mayo? According to your logic, I guess Iowa and Baylor doesn't accept students from MSU since none matched there. The data supports it lol.
What makes these programs "strong" in your mind? Because it has a well known name? Rankings by US world and news? Research grants? Or just because people in medicine have heard of the programs? Have you rotated at each and you can attest that each attending likes teaching, allows residents to manage the patients on their own, they get electives as a first year, and they're never called to cover as a backup on their elective months? As a non-trad (older resident) who is a year ahead of you in the process, take my advice: there will be a point in your life where you'll have to stop worrying about what other people think is best and do what you think is best for you. When I applied for residencies, I applied to places I wanted to go...not places other people want to go. I never even thought of looking at top ten lists or tiers or any other nonsense. And yes, DO IM residents at my hospital do fine in fellowships and get GI and cardiology if they're qualified and want it.
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Absolutely golden.
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What about URO, what about ENT, etc, etc. MSU's rep seriously isn't all that great ... were just arguing any MD vs a great DO, and unfortunately, the logic simply doesn't hold up. Plus, like every resident agrees, match lists are pointless. The OP looked at all the things that matter ... cost, location, clinical sites, and said TCOM came out on top.
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Nothing productive to say? do the SDN favorite... ad hominem attacks
You keep saying prestige. Prestige. It is not prestige. It is quality! Those top programs became prestigious because they deliver the best training- in every regard. It is not just the research they do (they no doubt do the best in that category); it is that they also deliver the strongest clinical training.
I have interviewed at programs in that top tier and programs not in that top tier but still good programs. I can tell you unequivocally that in every category, those top programs are at the top: whether autonomy, overall clinical training, research, ability to put people in fellowships, quality of attendings, teaching or whatever- these programs are the best. THAT is why they are so presitigious.
You ask about autonomy- these programs have the most... and many scare me with the level of autonomy they give their residents. The fellowships know this, which is why you see these programs placing their residents WHEREVER they want.
You allude to the fact that many residents at your program don't match into their desired fellowship, saying they match GI or Cards "if they're qualified". So apparently there are a bunch who are not qualified and don't match. That doesn't happen at those top programs. If you want to do cardiology, you get cardiology, and generally at your first choice. These programs don't have people who don't match.
The teaching is excellent at these programs- and it is delivered by the industry leaders in that field. So that while you read a section in Harrison's... the guy who wrote it will be delivering the noon lecture at these programs.
It is not about desiring what other people want... it is about being able to get into a phenomenal training program... instead of settling for something worse. So phrase it however you want to make yourself feel better. The truth of the matter is that these programs are better in every regard, by every metric.
Being able to get into these residency programs will tell you about your opportunities coming from certain medical schools.
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Then why did you use them to show how good a school TCOM is? I realize you weren't the first to bring them up.
Edit: And perhaps you could provide examples of what you meant/how MSU's reputation isn't good when you said
Are there accrediation problems that I've never heard of? Do they produce bad doctors that are always in the news for getting sued or something? What's the deal?
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Read my points, they are useless ... but people were using them as some sort of quality indicator, so I said listen ... these don't mean anything, but if you're going to bring it up, let me actually fight fire with fire and demonstrate how you're point isn't even valid using such flawed logic. The point is moot all around though bc like I said, they are useless, and instate is a smart/educated poster, so I'd never like 'attack' him ... more just sparring. Hahaha.
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Gotcha. But I am still curious as to what you meant when you said that MSUCHM's reputation isn't that great.
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First, not all of TCOM's top spots are ACGME programs. Second, TCOM's class is larger than MSU, so it makes more sense to compare percentages--after all, TCOM's list has A LOT more people going into FP than MSU
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Of course it makes no sense ... that was my point. Comparing match lists is stupid. Plus, I wasn't comparing ACGME specialization, I was simply playing the ROADS game. Nothing wrong with doing AOA ortho, ENT, etc. People who think there is something lesser about this, usually throw out cliche reasons as to why. Listen to J15 ... sooo many people make assumptions with very, very little knowledge regarding the programs. Until you've rotated through the ENT, Ortho, etc, AOA programs ... lets assume it's just as asinine, but fair, to compare ROADS to ROADS ... which like I SAID, is stupid and I was only fighting fire with fire.
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What if they wanted to go into FP? What if all they ranked were FP and they matched at their number one choice??? Would this still be a failure? You're falling into the cliche issues with judging schools based on match lists. Many of these people could have had stats for Anes, competitive IM programs, Surg, etc, but wanted FP.
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I didn't attack anyone. I gave you advice as someone who is older and further along in the process than you.
So enlighten us all. Define the best training. Since you say they're all the best and obviously speak from experience (you would never give advice based on hearsay, right?) you must have rotated at all of them.
I too have interviewed and rotated at some of your prized top tier programs (yep, even as a worthless DO...but all they let me do was mop the floors), and I can tell you unequivocally that it's just a name. Nothing made them stand out except for those obsessed with prestige who would walk around telling themselves "I'm at Columbia!". Teaching was better at some of them than at others. Some residents had more autonomy than at other places. Actually, now that I think back, rounding at one "top tier" NY program was a miserable disaster. Our attending for the month was arrogant and had no interest in teaching residents or students. He would come do his work, look over the interns notes, make fun of a bunch of them while the 3rd year tried to defend them, and leave. The residents on my team complained about him as well as everything under the sun. Everything from going over their cap to the PD not considering their input. Thankfully there were three or four 3rd years who were great and made up for the other whiners. But hey, it's top tier, so this must be good
My program has pretty good autonomy as well. We make all the decisions. If we're unsure we call the attending, but usually it doesn't come to that. Once again, you are not based in reality. Residents do NOT go "wherever they want" for fellowship just because they come from a so-called prestigious residency. They have other qualities that you take for granted because you are just a stary-eyed MS4 who dreams of telling people he is at Harvard. You are way too obsessed with brand names.Wow. Just wow. I didn't allude to anything. Are you really that threatened by DOs that you are now making up lies about my residency program? I said no such thing. Your bias against DOs is once again getting in the way of rational thinking. Actually the ones who want to do fellowship either stay at our hospital or the PD makes a phone call and they're in at another hospital. The ones who chose not to do research or didn't take their inservice exams seriously either have to do an additional year as a chief or settle for a less competitive specialty if they even want fellowship at all. Much different than when you originally claimed DOs won't match into a GI or Cardiology fellowship because they can't get into a top 10 program, eh? But of course you didn't know what you were talking about. Not surprising. Remember when you wrote this on page 1 of this thread:
Certain fellowships are hard to get. For instance, Cardiology and GI are very, very competitive. Good luck matching if you don't go to a well known program. Good luck getting into a well known program from a DO school.
See where I am going with this?
Ah, the joys of a medical student trying to educate a resident on the fellowship process. According to you, one must go to a well known program to match into cards or GI. Keep up the good advice 👍
Exactly. There's a little something called inservice exams, step 3, and research. Although inservice exams supposedly mean nothing, they actually mean quite a lot in some programs. You will learn all this next year. Those who do no research and don't perform well on inservice exams and step 3 have difficulty matching to competitive specialties.
I rotated through these programs as a student and will again as a resident. I know exactly how they work and you are once again completely wrong. Fellowships are competitive no matter where you go. They more or less REQUIRE research/publications and certain qualities that are built into these residents. I'm sorry you don't understand the process thoroughly.
phenomenal because other people say so? Because US World and News ranks a program #1? Because a guy who wrote a chapter in Harrisons is an attending there? Or because you rotated at every top tier residency program and are speaking from experience that everyone should believe they are phenominal? I didn't think there was anything phenominal about the "top tier" program I mentioned above that I rotated at. <sigh> Eventually you will grow up and realize life isn't about 'better' and 'worse'. It's about doing what makes you happy regardless of what others think. Sounds like you have poor self esteem and need to prove something to others. I'm just as happy (if not more) at my allopathic university program as any resident at Harvard is. I'm missing nothing. I look forward to waking up every morning with the exception of a certain month that won't be mentioned here. Of course you won't believe this, because you truly think that deep down everyone wishes they could be at a top tier program. FYI, I turned down an interview at one of your top tier programs that you salivate over nightly. Does that upset you? 😀
Ah, better because you say so. Better because well known doctors work there. I get it now. 🙄 I have no reason to rephrase anything. I love where I am in life right now, and I will continue to stress that to pre-meds on here who are looking for advice. You on the other hand continue to show your insecurities and desire to constantly be labelled as the best. Some words of wisdom for you my friend...what's best in your eyes may not be best in someone else's eyes. Difficult concept to grasp, I know, but try being a little more open minded.
Nope. It has nothing to do with the medical school name or their matchlist. It tells you about your board scores, research, clinical grades, and personality.
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I didn't attack anyone. I gave you advice as someone who is older and further along in the process than you.
So enlighten us all. Define the best training. Since you say they're all the best and obviously speak from experience (you would never give advice based on hearsay, right?) you must have rotated at all of them.
I too have interviewed and rotated at some of your prized top tier programs (yep, even as a worthless DO...but all they let me do was mop the floors), and I can tell you unequivocally that it's just a name. Nothing made them stand out except for those obsessed with prestige who would walk around telling themselves "I'm at Columbia!". Teaching was better at some of them than at others. Some residents had more autonomy than at other places. Actually, now that I think back, rounding at one "top tier" NY program was a miserable disaster. Our attending for the month was arrogant and had no interest in teaching residents or students. He would come do his work, look over the interns notes, make fun of a bunch of them while the 3rd year tried to defend them, and leave. The residents on my team complained about him as well as everything under the sun. Everything from going over their cap to the PD not considering their input. Thankfully there were three or four 3rd years who were great and made up for the other whiners. But hey, it's top tier, so this must be good
Wow. Just wow. I didn't allude to anything. Are you really that threatened by DOs that you are now making up lies about my residency program? I said no such thing. Your bias against DOs is once again getting in the way of rational thinking. Actually the ones who want to do fellowship either stay at our hospital or the PD makes a phone call and they're in at another hospital. The ones who chose not to do research or didn't take their inservice exams seriously either have to do an additional year as a chief or settle for a less competitive specialty if they even want fellowship at all. Much different than when you originally claimed DOs won't match into a GI or Cardiology fellowship because they can't get into a top 10 program, eh? But of course you didn't know what you were talking about. Not surprising. Remember when you wrote this on page 1 of this thread:
Certain fellowships are hard to get. For instance, Cardiology and GI are very, very competitive. Good luck matching if you don't go to a well known program. Good luck getting into a well known program from a DO school.
See where I am going with this?
Ah, the joys of a medical student trying to educate a resident on the fellowship process. According to you, one must go to a well known program to match into cards or GI. Keep up the good advice 👍
Exactly. There's a little something called inservice exams, step 3, and research. Although inservice exams supposedly mean nothing, they actually mean quite a lot in some programs. You will learn all this next year. Those who do no research and don't perform well on inservice exams and step 3 have difficulty matching to competitive specialties.
I rotated through these programs as a student and will again as a resident. I know exactly how they work and you are once again completely wrong. Fellowships are competitive no matter where you go. They more or less REQUIRE research/publications. That's just how it is. I'm sorry you don't understand the process thoroughly.
<sigh> Eventually you will grow up and realize life isn't about 'better' and 'worse'. It's about doing what makes you happy regardless of what others think. Sounds like you have poor self esteem and need to prove something to others. I'm just as happy (if not more) at my allopathic university program as any resident at Harvard is. I'm missing nothing. I look forward to waking up every morning with the exception of a certain month that won't be mentioned here. Of course you won't believe this, because you truly think that deep down everyone wishes they could be at a top tier program. FYI, I turned down an interview at one of your top tier programs that you salivate over nightly. Does that upset you? 😀
Ah, better because you say so. Better because well known doctors work there. I get it now. 🙄 I have no reason to rephrase anything. I love where I am in life right now, and I will continue to stress that to pre-meds on here who are looking for advice. You on the other hand continue to show your insecurities and desire to constantly be labelled as the best. Some words of wisdom for you my friend...what's best in your eyes may not be best in someone else's eyes. Difficult concept to grasp, I know, but try being a little more open minded.
Nope. It has nothing to do with the medical school name or their matchlist. It tells you about your board scores, research, clinical grades, and personality.
Oh Wow. Well said.👍
Are you single?
J/K.
No, really are you?
Joking.....kinda.😛
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Are you going to continue dodging my question? You cited MSU's reputation as not being all that great as a reason for the OP to not attend medical school there. Are you willing to provide any evidence for this claim or are you just making it up?
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You can always look up information yourself to disprove his statement. You know, just a suggestion.🙄
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Weird, I thought the burden of proof was on the person who is making the claim.
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This is SDN not a court course.
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I just want some reasons why he thinks MSU's reputation isn't good...that's it. When you're making an argument, blind statements don't really hold up very well. If he thinks MSU's reputation isn't good, then he ought to say why if he's trying to convince someone to not go there.
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I am at TCOM. First year, and as much hell as medical school is-
I am having the time of my life.
Literally. Having more fun than in college (and I went to a "party school", go figure.) What does it for me here? The people. My classmates, the second years, the third years that I have briefly rotated with, professors (most of them anyways 😛) just made me feel at home. And I KNOW I am not the only that feels that way. Sure we have our bumps in the road, but I have other friends at different medical schools around the state, and yup-they do too.
So with that being said-go with your gut feeling dear. IF you had "the feeling" somewhere, pursue it. Better to go on with no regrets than a fat WHAT IF? carrying on your shoulders.
TCOM will give you the tools to pursue any residency that you want-they say this, I have seen it, and believe it. But what most people fail to realize, is that pursuing your career/dream once you get to medical school is A LOT OF WORK ON YOUR PART. We are 20+ years old when we get to medical school, we have the capacity to be grown ups (most of the time 😛) and do things for ourselves-to better ourselves.
And to anyone else who reads this-especially pre-meds who get discouraged by this forum-just a reminder to take whatever you read here (all of SDN ) with a grain of salt. Very few, and often extreme opinions are expressed , so push yourself to form your own. Seriously-it'll save you from the insanity that is SDN. Please you need all of your strength for when you get into med school. 🙂
Much luck !
I am having the time of my life.
Literally. Having more fun than in college (and I went to a "party school", go figure.) What does it for me here? The people. My classmates, the second years, the third years that I have briefly rotated with, professors (most of them anyways 😛) just made me feel at home. And I KNOW I am not the only that feels that way. Sure we have our bumps in the road, but I have other friends at different medical schools around the state, and yup-they do too.
So with that being said-go with your gut feeling dear. IF you had "the feeling" somewhere, pursue it. Better to go on with no regrets than a fat WHAT IF? carrying on your shoulders.
TCOM will give you the tools to pursue any residency that you want-they say this, I have seen it, and believe it. But what most people fail to realize, is that pursuing your career/dream once you get to medical school is A LOT OF WORK ON YOUR PART. We are 20+ years old when we get to medical school, we have the capacity to be grown ups (most of the time 😛) and do things for ourselves-to better ourselves.
And to anyone else who reads this-especially pre-meds who get discouraged by this forum-just a reminder to take whatever you read here (all of SDN ) with a grain of salt. Very few, and often extreme opinions are expressed , so push yourself to form your own. Seriously-it'll save you from the insanity that is SDN. Please you need all of your strength for when you get into med school. 🙂
Much luck !
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Laugh, yeah of all the things thrown around in this thread ... my quip is the one that requires proof:
Dude, people are acting like were comparing a DO school to Harvard. There is obviously nothing wrong with CHM, it's just regarded as a mid-low tier MD school from what I've heard. It's listed in top 20 schools that put people into primary care (something people usually hold against DO schools), it's also ranked like number 7 of schools putting people into rural medicine. I've heard mixed things about the clinicals - community based, it's one of two medical schools associated with MSU (the other is a DO school, something else people would probably scoff at), people say negative things about East Lansing, etc, etc.
Jesus, is that enough??? I'm not trying to dodge your question, I just don't give a damn. This discussion is lame, and like others said, you're a grown up, look things up on your own and make your own decisions.
Dude, people are acting like were comparing a DO school to Harvard. There is obviously nothing wrong with CHM, it's just regarded as a mid-low tier MD school from what I've heard. It's listed in top 20 schools that put people into primary care (something people usually hold against DO schools), it's also ranked like number 7 of schools putting people into rural medicine. I've heard mixed things about the clinicals - community based, it's one of two medical schools associated with MSU (the other is a DO school, something else people would probably scoff at), people say negative things about East Lansing, etc, etc.
Jesus, is that enough??? I'm not trying to dodge your question, I just don't give a damn. This discussion is lame, and like others said, you're a grown up, look things up on your own and make your own decisions.
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Wow, what a statistically sound study. Nevermind the fact that DOs only constitute around 11% of ALL PHYSICIANS in the US, and that many students seek DO schools if they desire a small rural practice, and that many DO students are non-traditional or career-changers and are less likely to be the gunners seeking the "top" residencies per specialty. Let's also not consider the proximity of these programs to DO schools compared to MD schools (reflecting regional preference on both the part of the student and the program), or anything else that may put a chink in your otherwise sound, airtight research.
To the OP: GO TO WHICHEVER SCHOOL YOU LIKE MORE. Keep debt in mind, but if it won't be a problem then make your decision based on what DOES matter to YOU.
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Geez. He was trying to say that IF you are going to compare matchlists, at least use one that blows TCOM's out of the water with 20 plastics and 50 dermatologies since that's apparently what everybody secretly wants. He wasn't insulting your school. It's all good.
It's a lot easier for someone with anti-DO bias to say "Zero DOs are in these 10 residencies, therefore they must not accept DOs and that's final." By that same line of thinking, if there are no MSU residents in Iowa or Baylor's residency program, I guess they must not accept MSU applicants. Brilliant, no? Yes, there really are people who made it through medical school who believe this is sound scientific reasoning lol.
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I was just going to post something like this. Whenever threads like this get started, certain people act like every MD school is "Harvard" and every DO school is "Jim Willy's Old Time Lightning Bone-Setter Skool".
