Teen daughter wants to be a Dr., NEED ADVISE PLEASE

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bayarearesident

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Hi,

I am in need of advise, so that I may help my daughter out with reaching her goal of becoming a Dr. one day. I want to be as supportive as I can be, all while being realistic. As a mother, I would hate to discourage her from dreaming big. But I also do not want my daughter to get dreams crushed (for example....investing all those years of college, being in debt and then for the health care system, especially here in California, to go down the drain and for doctors to get paid peanuts).

My questions are these:

1) About how much is the cost of med school in CA? And if admitted to an out of state school, about how much would that cost?

2) What type of volunteer work should she be involved in right now during her high school years? She's a 9th grader with straight A's ....so far so good =D .

3) What type of college (state, UC, private) should she aim for to get her undergrad degree?

4) What type of degree should she focus on getting? I know science is advised, but what type is best? Or does it matter at all?

5) Any other advise that you can give me to give to her?

Also, I am very concerned about the health care system in general and how that is going to affect her career choice.

6) In what way do you think doctors are going to get affected if we end up with a "health care for all" system?

Your advise/input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
😍

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1) About how much is the cost of med school in CA? And if admitted to an out of state school, about how much would that cost?

It varies per school but including living expenses average in debt amount will likely be 160-200K+ after graduating,

2) What type of volunteer work should she be involved in right now during her high school years? She's a 9th grader with straight A's ....so far so good =D .

You can not include high school activities on med school apps....best advice I was ever given is do something she likes and enjoys

3) What type of college (state, UC, private) should she aim for to get her undergrad degree?

Go to a school that does not cost a ton and she can get high grades at....also plus would be if the school has research opportunities, clinical volunteer opportunities, etc. (The actually name of the school has a extremely small factor in med school admissions)

P.S. I just wanted to let you know CA is one of the hardest states to get into med school, therefore having a competitive application is essential.

4) What type of degree should she focus on getting? I know science is advised, but what type is best? Or does it matter at all?

Other than completing pre-reqs the degree does not matter at all...you could be a dance major and go to med school. Once again, picking something she enjoys will likely lead to good grades and therefore a better application

5) Any other advise that you can give me to give to her?

Relax, make sure to get as many A's as possible in college. Pick up activities you enjoy, try to do a volunteer/ job where you work with patients during undergrad.

High school has ZERO impact on med school admissions, but to get in med school you MUST get good grades in undergraduate, good MCAT, and clinical volunteer activities.

Also, I am very concerned about the health care system in general and how that is going to affect her career choice.

6) In what way do you think doctors are going to get affected if we end up with a "health care for all" system?

No one really knows..... most likely regardless of that, doctors will continue to loss ground against inflation and med school will continue to cost more.
 
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Hi,

I am in need of advise, so that I may help my daughter out with reaching her goal of becoming a Dr. one day. I want to be as supportive as I can be, all while being realistic. As a mother, I would hate to discourage her from dreaming big. But I also do not want my daughter to get dreams crushed (for example....investing all those years of college, being in debt and then for the health care system, especially here in California, to go down the drain and for doctors to get paid peanuts).

My questions are these:

1) About how much is the cost of med school in CA? And if admitted to an out of state school, about how much would that cost?

2) What type of volunteer work should she be involved in right now during her high school years? She's a 9th grader with straight A's ....so far so good =D .

3) What type of college (state, UC, private) should she aim for to get her undergrad degree?

4) What type of degree should she focus on getting? I know science is advised, but what type is best? Or does it matter at all?

5) Any other advise that you can give me to give to her?

Also, I am very concerned about the health care system in general and how that is going to affect her career choice.

6) In what way do you think doctors are going to get affected if we end up with a "health care for all" system?

Your advise/input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
😍

Well.. let me tell you its good to dream big, if your daughter knows she wants to go to medical school its good to research BS/MD and BS/DO programs which are 7 years.
its also very wise to take a lot of AP classes to reduce college work load and if taking ap science classes build experience.

Medical school in CA depending on public or private can range from 20k to 40k a year. out of state (usually private will costs around 40k a year). i wouldn't worry much about the cost because your daughter can take loans for these things and pay it off very well over the course of 10 years.

Volunteering isn't really worth much in high school unless it carries over into college so she could work at a hospital for lets say.. 2 hours a week.

College doesnt really matter, let her apply, and let her go where ever she gets the best deal or where she thinks would be the best fit for her.

Major, in terms of major she can do what ever she wants.. she could do anything from anthropology to zoology and everything inbetween which ever is best for her and easier to get a 4.0 or high gpa in.

Finally the health care system thing, well thats the benefits of being young. You have a huge amount of time, if everything turns out and physicians take a big hit, then you can steer away if you'd like. Either way im very skeptical it'll be very damaging to salary or anything.

My advice, your a 9th grader. Be a 9th grader, you got a lot of time before medical school , hell you got a ton of time before you even apply to college. I think you should explore classes and find out what you'd like and what not. Im personally a College freshman who just got out of high school, i would say that really have some fun and try to get a good understanding of how to deal with people. Because if i learned one thing about high school all you learn is people skills and how to live a life without issues.

Good luck
 
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Hi,

I am in need of advise, so that I may help my daughter out with reaching her goal of becoming a Dr. one day. I want to be as supportive as I can be, all while being realistic. As a mother, I would hate to discourage her from dreaming big. But I also do not want my daughter to get dreams crushed (for example....investing all those years of college, being in debt and then for the health care system, especially here in California, to go down the drain and for doctors to get paid peanuts).

My questions are these:

1) About how much is the cost of med school in CA? And if admitted to an out of state school, about how much would that cost?

Depends on school and location, google is your friend here.

2) What type of volunteer work should she be involved in right now during her high school years? She's a 9th grader with straight A's ....so far so good =D .

So far so good. I wouldn't worry too much about volunteer work until she gets into college. From there, makes sure that she does something meaningful (that can be discussed in an interview) and something that she can do for a long time (3 -4 years). Make sure that she continues to get straight A's and has a solid base in the sciences.

3) What type of college (state, UC, private) should she aim for to get her undergrad degree?

I go to UC Berkeley and I wish I had chosen a less stressful school. The name of the school only plays a small role in the admissions process. So if a 4.0 student from a CSU and a 3.0 student from a UC apply to the same medical school, the CSU student will be chosen 9.99/10 times. So honestly, make sure your kid goes to the school that she is truely comfortable in and can succeed academically.

4) What type of degree should she focus on getting? I know science is advised, but what type is best? Or does it matter at all?

I'm a psychology major and I think that even though my GPA is slightly inflated (easier classes) the bio/chem/physics majors have a slight edge because more of their classes are in the sciences. Let your daughter do what she enjoys, but make sure she does the prerequisites for medical school.

5) Any other advise that you can give me to give to her?

Enjoy her time in high school while still doing well. Let her make stupid mistakes that every teen inevitably does, when she gets into college she can't afford to screw around.

Academically, urge her to take some english, history, and humanities classes at your local community college. Make sure they are transferable to the school that she will attend (both high school and college) so that she will have a head start when she gets to university.

Also, I am very concerned about the health care system in general and how that is going to affect her career choice.

6) In what way do you think doctors are going to get affected if we end up with a "health care for all" system?

Premeds are probably the worst group of people to ask about this topic.

You've got some time, let your kid be....a kid. Don't worry too much about the "wanting to be a doctor" the career decision will change many times before she actually applies.
 
Hi,

I am in need of advise, so that I may help my daughter out with reaching her goal of becoming a Dr. one day. I want to be as supportive as I can be, all while being realistic. As a mother, I would hate to discourage her from dreaming big. But I also do not want my daughter to get dreams crushed (for example....investing all those years of college, being in debt and then for the health care system, especially here in California, to go down the drain and for doctors to get paid peanuts).

My questions are these:

1) About how much is the cost of med school in CA? And if admitted to an out of state school, about how much would that cost?

2) What type of volunteer work should she be involved in right now during her high school years? She's a 9th grader with straight A's ....so far so good =D .

3) What type of college (state, UC, private) should she aim for to get her undergrad degree?

4) What type of degree should she focus on getting? I know science is advised, but what type is best? Or does it matter at all?

5) Any other advise that you can give me to give to her?

Also, I am very concerned about the health care system in general and how that is going to affect her career choice.

6) In what way do you think doctors are going to get affected if we end up with a "health care for all" system?

Your advise/input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
😍

1. It's going to cost about $150,000-$200,000 total

2. See if you can sign up for a humanitarian trip to Haiti or Sudan. That's something that gets a lot of attention when she applied for medical school. It's usually better to do something significant and newsworthy rather than waste time volunteering at her local church or hospital.

3. Nothing less than Ivy League, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, or Stanford for undergrad. People who go to a non-elite schools experience problems getting into medical school.

4. Probably something challenging like Biochemistry, Biomedical Engineering, Physical chemistry, or Molecular Neuroscience or one of those "hard science" majors. Don't major in film or underwater basket weaving or anything like that. The adcoms can see past the bluff if you pick an easy major.

5. Don't settle for anything except one of the top 20 medical schools. The lower ranked medical schools are a joke and your daughter will not be able to find a residency or a job if she graduates from one of those schools. There are going to be a lot of people who say that this isn't true, but those people are the ones who are unusually lucky and snagged a residency or who are in denial because they know that they will not be able to find a competitive or any type of residency after medical school.

6. It's going to reduce physician salaries to about $150,000 per year and outsource the non-clinical jobs. So if your daughter becomes a radiologist or pathologist (both a physician specialties), those jobs will probably go to India. You're daughter will be in debt by about $200,000 but her take home pay (after taxes, malpractice insurance, rent, and cost of living) will be about $5,000 per year. She can make more by going into law or getting an MBA.
 
https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/select.cfm?year_of_study=2010 This will tell you how much med schools cost now. Who knows how much they will cost in eight years. Your daughter should get involved in something which interests her and which may carry over for many years. Choir now may lead to a cappella later, tutoring now can lead to tutoring later. Beginning a language now can lead to fluency and foreign travel later. Clubs now can lead to leadership experiences later. There's no need to focus on science things now unless she is interested. In fact, even doing poorly in HS chemistry does not mean you can't succeed in it later. Remember, any class taken at a community college will count in calculating your undergraduate GPA. Many pre-meds have found to their dismay that the CC class taken when they were 16 or 17, and didn't take seriously will trash a GPA when they apply for med school.
 
1. It's going to cost about $150,000-$200,000 total

2. See if you can sign up for a humanitarian trip to Haiti or Sudan. That's something that gets a lot of attention when she applied for medical school. It's usually better to do something significant and newsworthy rather than waste time volunteering at her local church or hospital.

3. Nothing less than Ivy League, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, or Stanford for undergrad. People who go to a non-elite schools experience problems getting into medical school.

4. Probably something challenging like Biochemistry, Biomedical Engineering, Physical chemistry, or Molecular Neuroscience or one of those "hard science" majors. Don't major in film or underwater basket weaving or anything like that. The adcoms can see past the bluff if you pick an easy major.

5. Don't settle for anything except one of the top 20 medical schools. The lower ranked medical schools are a joke and your daughter will not be able to find a residency or a job if she graduates from one of those schools. There are going to be a lot of people who say that this isn't true, but those people are the ones who are unusually lucky and snagged a residency or who are in denial because they know that they will not be able to find a competitive or any type of residency after medical school.

6. It's going to reduce physician salaries to about $150,000 per year and outsource the non-clinical jobs. So if your daughter becomes a radiologist or pathologist (both a physician specialties), those jobs will probably go to India. You're daughter will be in debt by about $200,000 but her take home pay (after taxes, malpractice insurance, rent, and cost of living) will be about $5,000 per year. She can make more by going into law or getting an MBA.

People experience those problems much more because, in general, they lack either the drive or intelligence that it requires to get into such competitive universities. If OP's daughter is interested in one of them then by all means aim for it, but don't feel like it is an all or nothing deal. In fact, I would dare say that getting into one of those Universities is probably a good sign, even if you don't end up going there.

I also especially disagree with 5 and 6. Especially 5, that's just wrong. Nobody under the top 20 gets a residency? Are you serious? I mean, if you had said top residency I would still disagree but at least I could see where you are coming from. The others are extreme points of view for the most part as well. Except number 1.
 
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Personally, I would say say to my kid that they need to enjoy their high school years. Just do your best in school, get into a decent college, continue to work hard, acquire ECs in college and apply when ready. It's really ridiculous to be worrying this much about it this early. Your daughter may easily change her mind...I know I did several times. She needs to enjoy her life because it will only get harder. She will have more than enough time in her life to be neurotic about med school if thats what she ends up deciding on.
 
If your daughter is certain on this decision, I would look into 7-year programs (where she would have a conditional acceptance into medical school before she even starts college) so that she may not have to worry about the hassles of applying like almost all of us do.

I would suggest shadowing a few doctors, volunteering at either a hospital or a hospice, possibly do research, and for her to ascertain as much knowledge as possible about having a possible career as a physician.

At the same time, she should be keeping up her good work in her classes while participating in extracurriculars (sports, clubs, community service) in high school. Also, try to hold as many leadership positions as possible. Take challenging classes, like AP classes, and take the AP tests for them. And, of course, do well on the SAT and possibly subject SAT tests if the potential schools require them.

Yes, it's important to enjoy high school and learn to be a responsible, individual teen. But, at the same time it is possible to serious and productive as well. If I could back to high school, I would have done all of the above. Good luck!
 
3. Nothing less than Ivy League, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, or Stanford for undergrad. People who go to a non-elite schools experience problems getting into medical school.

4. Probably something challenging like Biochemistry, Biomedical Engineering, Physical chemistry, or Molecular Neuroscience or one of those "hard science" majors. Don't major in film or underwater basket weaving or anything like that. The adcoms can see past the bluff if you pick an easy major.

Is this a joke? I go to a state school and am accepted to 2 med schools....and I know a ton of other that are accepted, school does NOT matter.

Second, my boss who is an attending at a top 30 med school majored in history in undergrad and went to a good med school.....to the OP they look at your performance in pre reqs but DO NOT care what you major in.

Oh wait, did I just get trolled...🙄
 
Hi,

I am in need of advise, so that I may help my daughter out with reaching her goal of becoming a Dr. one day. I want to be as supportive as I can be, all while being realistic. As a mother, I would hate to discourage her from dreaming big. But I also do not want my daughter to get dreams crushed (for example....investing all those years of college, being in debt and then for the health care system, especially here in California, to go down the drain and for doctors to get paid peanuts).

My questions are these:

1) About how much is the cost of med school in CA? And if admitted to an out of state school, about how much would that cost?

2) What type of volunteer work should she be involved in right now during her high school years? She's a 9th grader with straight A's ....so far so good =D .

3) What type of college (state, UC, private) should she aim for to get her undergrad degree?

4) What type of degree should she focus on getting? I know science is advised, but what type is best? Or does it matter at all?

5) Any other advise that you can give me to give to her?

Also, I am very concerned about the health care system in general and how that is going to affect her career choice.

6) In what way do you think doctors are going to get affected if we end up with a "health care for all" system?

Your advise/input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
😍

Honestly the best thing you can do for a 15 year old is to support her no matter what she wants to do... she may think this is what she wants to do when she grows up but she really has no idea. The best thing that my parents ever did for me was just to be there and support my dream, no matter what it was. They did tell me that I was going to go college and get a degree, and that was good too.

As for whether med school/medicine will be for her, that's up for her to decide and she'll kind of figure this out during college or maybe even later. She's going to change a lot during high school and college and what's most important is to keep her options open and find out what she wants and who she is.
 
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1. It's going to cost about $150,000-$200,000 total

2. See if you can sign up for a humanitarian trip to Haiti or Sudan. That's something that gets a lot of attention when she applied for medical school. It's usually better to do something significant and newsworthy rather than waste time volunteering at her local church or hospital.

3. Nothing less than Ivy League, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, or Stanford for undergrad. People who go to a non-elite schools experience problems getting into medical school.

4. Probably something challenging like Biochemistry, Biomedical Engineering, Physical chemistry, or Molecular Neuroscience or one of those "hard science" majors. Don't major in film or underwater basket weaving or anything like that. The adcoms can see past the bluff if you pick an easy major.

5. Don't settle for anything except one of the top 20 medical schools. The lower ranked medical schools are a joke and your daughter will not be able to find a residency or a job if she graduates from one of those schools. There are going to be a lot of people who say that this isn't true, but those people are the ones who are unusually lucky and snagged a residency or who are in denial because they know that they will not be able to find a competitive or any type of residency after medical school.

6. It's going to reduce physician salaries to about $150,000 per year and outsource the non-clinical jobs. So if your daughter becomes a radiologist or pathologist (both a physician specialties), those jobs will probably go to India. You're daughter will be in debt by about $200,000 but her take home pay (after taxes, malpractice insurance, rent, and cost of living) will be about $5,000 per year. She can make more by going into law or getting an MBA.

Hilarious. :laugh:

I think you fooled more than a few people. Way to trick everyone into thinking you're serious with being perfectly "honest" with #1, though it might be closer to $250,000-$300,000 in 8 years (depending on the school). I think public school tuition is rising faster than private school tuition.

By the way, Harvard is part of the Ivy League.
 
Let me just say this. If she really wants to be a MD she will have to WORK VERY HARD. I think it's safe to say that most of the pre-meds in college will drop out and not even apply. This is due to having to take very difficult science classes in undergraduate. The field is also extremely competitive so you just have to work hard and do the best you can. Most of us were straight A students in high school and then went to become 3.75+ students in college. The MCAT is probably the hardest graduate school admissions test one can take and weeds out a lot of applicants.

Also let her know that being a doctor is not FUN. It's countless hours spend at the hospital, sacrificing a lot of family time, ridiculous amount of stress, and having ungrateful patients who also want to find something wrong so they can sue. However, it has it's own rewards but is in no way glamorous.

The best thing to do is go have her go out and shadow a physician or volunteer in a hospital. That way she can see just the reality of what it is like to do medicine.
 
1. It's going to cost about $150,000-$200,000 total

2. See if you can sign up for a humanitarian trip to Haiti or Sudan. That's something that gets a lot of attention when she applied for medical school. It's usually better to do something significant and newsworthy rather than waste time volunteering at her local church or hospital.

3. Nothing less than Ivy League, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, or Stanford for undergrad. People who go to a non-elite schools experience problems getting into medical school.

4. Probably something challenging like Biochemistry, Biomedical Engineering, Physical chemistry, or Molecular Neuroscience or one of those "hard science" majors. Don't major in film or underwater basket weaving or anything like that. The adcoms can see past the bluff if you pick an easy major.

5. Don't settle for anything except one of the top 20 medical schools. The lower ranked medical schools are a joke and your daughter will not be able to find a residency or a job if she graduates from one of those schools. There are going to be a lot of people who say that this isn't true, but those people are the ones who are unusually lucky and snagged a residency or who are in denial because they know that they will not be able to find a competitive or any type of residency after medical school.

6. It's going to reduce physician salaries to about $150,000 per year and outsource the non-clinical jobs. So if your daughter becomes a radiologist or pathologist (both a physician specialties), those jobs will probably go to India. You're daughter will be in debt by about $200,000 but her take home pay (after taxes, malpractice insurance, rent, and cost of living) will be about $5,000 per year. She can make more by going into law or getting an MBA.

please ignore this post..
this person has no idea what the hell he's talking about/ being a douche bag.
 
The best advice I could give your daughter would be, take your time. It's not a race, and it may not be a straight path. If she knows right now, for certain, that she wants to be a doctor, what is that based on? What does she know about herself, about the medical profession, the world, that make her so certain? I picked up a stethoscope when I was 3 and said I wanted to be a doctor...I watched Rescue 911 when I was 9, and said I wanted to save people...and when I was 14, I was pretty sure I was going to save the world, and being a doctor seemed like a decent way to go about that. I wanted to be a doctor my whole life. But I'm in my mid-twenties, and only now can I say that I really know what that means and want it for the right reasons. I know that, because I spent the last 8 years doing what made me happy, and what I believed in, and the common theme I found in all of it was medicine. If she goes about it that way, she will inevitably come up with the kind of resume that med schools want to see, but more importantly, she'll be happy, and she'll be sure of her decision.

Trust me, med schools see thousands of cookie cutter applicants every year, that have done the requisite volunteering, good grades, etc. But if you can't talk about why you did what you did, and why you loved it, you're not going to get past the interview. Moreoever, in my personal experience, most med schools want a person--not a resume--and it will only help to have little things that make you special, whether its that you're a ballet dancer or a tuba player or speak Swahili, or whatever it is that interests you. Don't get me wrong--she has to do those requisite, cookie cutter things. But she should volunteer because she cares, or because she wants to learn more about the profession, and she should get good grades because she wants to learn--afterall, you can be the most caring doctor in the world, but if you don't know your science, you're not someone I want treating me.

My point is, let her grow, and explore, and do the things she cares about. It might be, as is the case for many of us, that her experiences only deepen and enrich her desire to be a doctor. Or it may be that she discovers another path, and that's a good thing too. This career is a tremendous commitment--it requires your heart and soul, about 90% of your time, and a ridiculous amount of money. It's not something you should go into with anything but sincere passion and conviction, that's informed by your experiences and your understanding of yourself and the world. IMHO.
 
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The best advice I could give your daughter would be, take your time. It's not a race, and it may not be a straight path. If she knows right now, for certain, that she wants to be a doctor, what is that based on? What does she know about herself, about the medical profession, the world, that make her so certain? I picked up a stethoscope when I was 3 and said I wanted to be a doctor...I watched Rescue 911 when I was 9, and said I wanted to save people...and when I was 14, I was pretty sure I was going to save the world, and being a doctor seemed like a decent way to go about that. I wanted to be a doctor my whole life. But I'm in my mid-twenties, and only now can I say that I really know what that means and want it for the right reasons. I know that, because I spent the last 8 years doing what made me happy, and what I believed in, and the common theme I found in all of it was medicine. If she goes about it that way, she will inevitably come up with the kind of resume that med schools want to see, but more importantly, she'll be happy, and she'll be sure of her decision. Trust me, med schools see thousands of cookie cutter applicants every year, that have done the requisite volunteering, good grades, etc. But if you can't talk about why you did what you did, and why you loved it, you're not going to get past the interview. Moreoever, in my personal experience, most med schools want a person--not a resume--and it will only help to have little things that make you special, whether its that you're a ballet dancer or a tuba player or speak Swahili, or whatever it is that interests you. Don't get me wrong--she has to do those requisite, cookie cutter things. But she should volunteer because she cares, or because she wants to learn more about the profession, and she should get good grades because she wants to learn--afterall, you can be the most caring doctor in the world, but if you don't know your science, you're not someone I want treating me. My point is, let her grow, and explore, and do the things she cares about. It might be, as is the case for many of us, that her experiences only deepen and enrich her desire to be a doctor. Or it may be that she discovers another path, and that's a good thing too. This career is a tremendous commitment--it requires your heart and soul, about 90% of your time, and a ridiculous amount of money. It's not something you should go into with anything but sincere passion and conviction, that's informed by your experiences and your understanding of yourself and the world. IMHO.

Very heartfelt, wise post. 👍
 
1. It's going to cost about $150,000-$200,000 total

2. See if you can sign up for a humanitarian trip to Haiti or Sudan. That's something that gets a lot of attention when she applied for medical school. It's usually better to do something significant and newsworthy rather than waste time volunteering at her local church or hospital.

3. Nothing less than Ivy League, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, or Stanford for undergrad. People who go to a non-elite schools experience problems getting into medical school.

4. Probably something challenging like Biochemistry, Biomedical Engineering, Physical chemistry, or Molecular Neuroscience or one of those "hard science" majors. Don't major in film or underwater basket weaving or anything like that. The adcoms can see past the bluff if you pick an easy major.

5. Don't settle for anything except one of the top 20 medical schools. The lower ranked medical schools are a joke and your daughter will not be able to find a residency or a job if she graduates from one of those schools. There are going to be a lot of people who say that this isn't true, but those people are the ones who are unusually lucky and snagged a residency or who are in denial because they know that they will not be able to find a competitive or any type of residency after medical school.

6. It's going to reduce physician salaries to about $150,000 per year and outsource the non-clinical jobs. So if your daughter becomes a radiologist or pathologist (both a physician specialties), those jobs will probably go to India. You're daughter will be in debt by about $200,000 but her take home pay (after taxes, malpractice insurance, rent, and cost of living) will be about $5,000 per year. She can make more by going into law or getting an MBA.

Wrong. Idiot.
 
Many people who went to college more than ten years ago don't realize how good financial aid can be. In effect, some of the cheapest undergrad schools (by avg debt) are Princeton, Stanford, Harvard or Yale, believe it or not. Of course, this depends on your income itself, but the amount of financial aid at these schools is substantial. I think MIT has been mulling around making it completely tuition-free, since they have such a big endowment anyways. Other top schools have similar financial resources as well. I'm trying to say that when someone says "go to the cheapest", think state school OR top schools. Either could likely be inexpensive.

Coming from a good undergraduate school will help, the question is how much. In fact, you can get into a good medical school from ANY undergrad, and going somewhere you can enjoy and succeed is far and away most important. But I think it is misleading to say that it matters none. I just looked over U Michigan's accepted students list, and Harvard takes, like, >10% of the spots. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Duke, MIT and Penn probably combine for 30-40% of them, yet represent likely < 1% of undergraduates.

Just wanted to opine on these points.
 
Many people who went to college more than ten years ago don't realize how good financial aid can be. In effect, some of the cheapest undergrad schools (by avg debt) are Princeton, Stanford, Harvard or Yale, believe it or not. Of course, this depends on your income itself, but the amount of financial aid at these schools is substantial. I think MIT has been mulling around making it completely tuition-free, since they have such a big endowment anyways. Other top schools have similar financial resources as well. I'm trying to say that when someone says "go to the cheapest", think state school OR top schools. Either could likely be inexpensive.

Coming from a good undergraduate school will help, the question is how much. In fact, you can get into a good medical school from ANY undergrad, and going somewhere you can enjoy and succeed is far and away most important. But I think it is misleading to say that it matters none. I just looked over U Michigan's accepted students list, and Harvard takes, like, >10% of the spots. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Duke, MIT and Penn probably combine for 30-40% of them, yet represent likely < 1% of undergraduates.

Just wanted to opine on these points.

I definitely agree here. I know that UM, though not in the top 20, offers scholarships to 60% of its applicants, and those scholarships range from $16,000 a year to full tuition. So I think that lots of competitive private undergraduate institutions are very generous.


Or hilarious.

Don't know if it's what you're getting at, but I thought he was being sarcastic, myself. If he's not, I'd like to second the fact that the information is just straight up wrong. From what I've read, your undergraduate institution plays a factor in admissions, but I really don't think it's a big one. I think that any connection between top-tier undergraduate institutions and higher acceptance rate is mostly due to increased competitiveness/intelligence/motivation/drive/whatever factor got them into that really good school in the first place.

And, please, tell your daughter I say good luck, and the best advise I can offer is that, even though she appears to know that she wants to be a doctor, she should still keep her options open and be careful not to seal off her choices. If she works hard and tries to expand her horizons (that is, with participation in extracurricular activities, volunteering, etc.) then she can definitely get there.
 
my recommendation to every incoming freshman (especially premed's) is to take premed pre-req's (general bio, chem, orgo, and physics) and to plan them out that they are all done by the end of junior year. It would be good if the applicant can have done bio, chem, and either orgo or physics by the start of their junior year, and take the remaining pre-req (whether it be orgo or physics) over the junior year.

As for major, remain undeclared first two years and fulfill gen ed requirements (do not take AP credit). Then see what interests you from what you learned in those gen ed's, and declare a major to further study that field in depth in your major.

The only thing which it does not really apply to is if an applicant is pre-determined to be an engineering major... then it is crucial to start engineering degree from day 1... but for all other majors, one can declare major in third year having completed all the gen ed's by then and can still finish easily in time for the expected 4 year graduation
 
Hi,

I am in need of advise, so that I may help my daughter out with reaching her goal of becoming a Dr. one day. I want to be as supportive as I can be, all while being realistic. As a mother, I would hate to discourage her from dreaming big. But I also do not want my daughter to get dreams crushed (for example....investing all those years of college, being in debt and then for the health care system, especially here in California, to go down the drain and for doctors to get paid peanuts).

My questions are these:

1) About how much is the cost of med school in CA? And if admitted to an out of state school, about how much would that cost?

2) What type of volunteer work should she be involved in right now during her high school years? She's a 9th grader with straight A's ....so far so good =D .

3) What type of college (state, UC, private) should she aim for to get her undergrad degree?

4) What type of degree should she focus on getting? I know science is advised, but what type is best? Or does it matter at all?

5) Any other advise that you can give me to give to her?

Also, I am very concerned about the health care system in general and how that is going to affect her career choice.

6) In what way do you think doctors are going to get affected if we end up with a "health care for all" system?

Your advise/input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
😍

Dear anonymous mother,

Just the other day, I had the great fortune of meeting a UCSF doctor (celebrity in academic circles). I had the great fortune of shadowing him and even working in the OR with him.

What he told me broke my heart.

"Medicine is not what it used to be. There is no freedom, everything is highly regulated, and you will be on call 24/7. You are paid peanuts, and your family life will be horrible."

I was taken aback, and I was angry at what he told me. But what can I say if that's what 10 other surgeons have told me? (I work in the OR)

I was so distraught, I went to my family doctor and asked her if primary care is a good option for me, a guy who just wants a family--she painted a very grim picture. She told me that if her husband wasn't a surgeon, she couldn't afford her own practice, and that their marriage is already on shaky ground. BTW, that celebrity doctor and ALL the surgeons I spoke to? ALL DIVORCED.

I wish I were a troll, but sad to say, that's reality.

Please let your daughter talk to a surgeon/doctor or do it yourself. Let her know the reality of medicine.

I love medicine with all my heart. I've wanted to be a doctor for a long time. But I also want to be the dad my own father never was, so I'm reconsidering medicine.
 
Hi,

I am in need of advise, so that I may help my daughter out with reaching her goal of becoming a Dr. one day. I want to be as supportive as I can be, all while being realistic. As a mother, I would hate to discourage her from dreaming big. But I also do not want my daughter to get dreams crushed (for example....investing all those years of college, being in debt and then for the health care system, especially here in California, to go down the drain and for doctors to get paid peanuts).

My questions are these:

1) About how much is the cost of med school in CA? And if admitted to an out of state school, about how much would that cost?

2) What type of volunteer work should she be involved in right now during her high school years? She's a 9th grader with straight A's ....so far so good =D .

3) What type of college (state, UC, private) should she aim for to get her undergrad degree?

4) What type of degree should she focus on getting? I know science is advised, but what type is best? Or does it matter at all?

5) Any other advise that you can give me to give to her?

Give her the time to be a kid. Medical school is hard, hard work. There's plenty of time for her to spend becoming a doctor, but very little time she gets to be a teen.

If she's really motivated, have her spend a summer or two volunteering at a nursing home, or perhaps have her shadow some doctors.

Also, I am very concerned about the health care system in general and how that is going to affect her career choice.

6) In what way do you think doctors are going to get affected if we end up with a "health care for all" system?

Your advise/input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
😍

Doctors make good money and will continue to do so, just like they do in countries with universal health care. Few other professions offer anything close to the balance of job security and income that medicine offers.

What you should be concerned about aren't her financial prospects, but her ability to handle stress, responsibility and long hours. I know a fair amount of people who are doctors and hate it, but they all hate it because of the hours and responsibility. Burnout is common among doctors, poverty is not.
 
I wish my mother knew how to use emoticons. She can barely use email. But I still love her =)
 
I wish my mother knew how to use emoticons. She can barely use email. But I still love her =)

Lol! That is so sweet.

My mother works for Apple and is like super tech-savvy..she is always like "why are you not syncing your i phone" "do you have this new app?", she makes me feel really old school or something. She is always bugging my dad and I with hardware up grades, software upgrades, memory upgrades...upgrades..upgrades...we are both like my Mac works fine...I don't need another upgrade....:laugh::laugh:
 
Let me just say this. If she really wants to be a MD she will have to WORK VERY HARD. I think it's safe to say that most of the pre-meds in college will drop out and not even apply. This is due to having to take very difficult science classes in undergraduate. The field is also extremely competitive so you just have to work hard and do the best you can. Most of us were straight A students in high school and then went to become 3.75+ students in college. The MCAT is probably the hardest graduate school admissions test one can take and weeds out a lot of applicants.

Also let her know that being a doctor is not FUN. It's countless hours spend at the hospital, sacrificing a lot of family time, ridiculous amount of stress, and having ungrateful patients who also want to find something wrong so they can sue. However, it has it's own rewards but is in no way glamorous.

The best thing to do is go have her go out and shadow a physician or volunteer in a hospital. That way she can see just the reality of what it is like to do medicine.

If you know that it's so horrible, why are you a premed? How would you learn all of this, except from the anecdotes from a select group of posters on this site?

I noticed another premed poster had a similar post. Is it a new cool fad to hate on a job that you want? Do you think people will be impressed by your self sacrifice? Boooring.
 
My mother works for Apple and is like super tech-savvy..she is always like "why are you not syncing your i phone" "do you have this new app?", she makes me feel really old school or something. She is always bugging my dad and I with hardware up grades, software upgrades, memory upgrades...upgrades..upgrades...we are both like my Mac works fine...I don't need another upgrade....:laugh::laugh:

Lol, that's really cute. At least your mom can hook you up with cool deals!
 
Dear anonymous mother,

Just the other day, I had the great fortune of meeting a UCSF doctor (celebrity in academic circles). I had the great fortune of shadowing him and even working in the OR with him.

What he told me broke my heart.

"Medicine is not what it used to be. There is no freedom, everything is highly regulated, and you will be on call 24/7. You are paid peanuts, and your family life will be horrible."

I was taken aback, and I was angry at what he told me. But what can I say if that's what 10 other surgeons have told me? (I work in the OR)

I was so distraught, I went to my family doctor and asked her if primary care is a good option for me, a guy who just wants a family--she painted a very grim picture. She told me that if her husband wasn't a surgeon, she couldn't afford her own practice, and that their marriage is already on shaky ground. BTW, that celebrity doctor and ALL the surgeons I spoke to? ALL DIVORCED.

I wish I were a troll, but sad to say, that's reality.

Please let your daughter talk to a surgeon/doctor or do it yourself. Let her know the reality of medicine.

I love medicine with all my heart. I've wanted to be a doctor for a long time. But I also want to be the dad my own father never was, so I'm reconsidering medicine.

You really paint a grim picture of medicine. While I agree that people should be aware of the pitfalls of leading life as a doctor, you really didn't emphasize any of the positives. The job itself is amazing, you meet plenty of interesting people every day, you work with interesting people, your intellectual abilities are tested on a regular basis, you have the ability to lead a talented group of nurses, residents, etc later on, most doctors live financially comfortable, the job requires that you be constantly learning, you spend your life helping others out, and the list goes on.

You have to deal with annoying depositions, lawsuits, paperwork, angry patients, angry nurses, and angry doctors, but every job has its drawbacks. I defy you to find one job on this Earth that is absolutely perfect. Medicine, to me, is one of the few unique professions where the good far outweighs the bad. Everyone is worrying about how much doctors are going to make and what not, and I would be lying to you if I told you that money was not a factor to me, but as long as I can live relatively comfortably, medicine is the way to go. Again, I think it's great for residents to tell their stories about how little they get to see their families, how much malpractice insurance costs, and how much paperwork they have to do. It would be ignorant entering into a profession not knowing what to expect. I certainly won't sit here and tell you that I think I know everything about how bad it can get at some points, but overall, I think I can say with certainty that medicine is still and will always be an inspirational profession.

Also, on the topic of divorce, let's examine the probability of meeting divorced doctors, assuming that they have neither a lower nor a higher risk for divorce than anyone else in the nation. You met what? Four surgeons? The probability that they were all divorced, not considering that they were all doctors, is (1/2)^4= 0.0625 or 6.25%, and that's certainly not an impossiblly low percentage (some medical schools have admissions rates that low). You could have met four divorced teachers or lawyers equally as likely. Take a look at the interesting article below, it may dispel your divorce worries. Doctors seem to be below the average, at least 12 years ago.

Physicians' Divorce Risk May Be Linked To Specialty Choice

Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions

March 13, 1997


A Johns Hopkins study finds that physicians in some specialties -- chiefly psychiatry and surgery -- are at higher risk for divorce than their medical brethren in other fields. But the results do not support the common view that job-related anxiety and depression are linked to marital breakup.

Alerting medical students to the risks of divorce in some specialties may influence their career choices and strengthen their marriages whatever field they choose, says Michael J. Klag, M.D., senior author and an associate professor of medicine.


"Marital counseling during residency training appears to be a good idea for family and career satisfaction in the long term," Klag says. The study, supported by the National Institutes of Health, is published in the March 13 issue of The New England Journal of Medicine.


Results also strongly suggest that the high divorce risk in some specialties may result from the inherent demands of the job as well as the emotional experiences of physicians who enter those fields.
. The Hopkins team assessed the specialty choices, marriage histories, psychological characteristics, and other career and personal factors of 1,118 physicians who graduated from The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine from 1948 through 1964.


Over 30 years of follow-up, the divorce rate was 51 percent for psychiatrists, 33 percent for surgeons, 24 percent for internists, 22 percent for pediatricians and pathologists, and 31 percent for other specialties. The overall divorce rate was 29 percent after three decades of follow-up and 32 percent after nearly four decades of follow-up.


Physicians who married before medical school graduation had a higher divorce rate than those who waited until after graduation (33 percent versus 23 percent). The year of first marriage was linked with divorce rates: 11 percent for marriages before 1953, 17 percent for those from 1953 to 1957, 24 percent for those from 1958 to 1962 and 21 percent for those after 1962. Those who had a parent die before medical school graduation had a lower divorce rate.

Female physicians had a higher divorce rate (37 percent) than their male colleagues (28 percent). Physicians who were members of an academic honor society in medical school had a lower divorce rate, although there was no difference in divorce rates according to class rank. Religious affiliation, being an only child, having a parent who was a physician and having a divorced parent were not associated with divorce rates.


Physicians who reported themselves to be less emotionally close to their parents and who expressed more anger under stress also had a significantly higher divorce rate, but anxiety and depression levels were not associated with divorce rate.


"Healthy marriages have deep affection, compatibility, expressiveness and conflict resolution, so the higher risk of divorce in those less emotionally close to their parents could be telling," says Klag. "Feeling distant from your parents may indicate a decreased ability to form an intimate relationship with your spouse. Also, marriage after medical school may allow the relationship to develop in a less stressful environment."


Researchers cautioned that the study, which looked at marital histories through 1987, did not address quality of marriage and that physicians may be more likely to stay in poor marriages for financial and social reasons. Also, most physicians in the study were white males first married in the 1940s and 1950s when divorce was less socially acceptable, so the risks may vary for contemporary physicians, who include more women and minorities, say researchers.


Future studies should examine the quality of marriage, physicians' and spouses' views of their relationship, society's changing expectations of marriage, more women and minority physicians, and the effect of medical school debt and other stresses on divorce risks, the researchers say.


Co-authors of the study, which was part of the Johns Hopkins Precursors Study, an ongoing, prospective study of physicians from the Hopkins medical school graduating classes of 1948 through 1964, were lead author Bruce L. Rollman, M.D., Lucy A. Mead, Sc.M., and Nae-Yuh Wang, M.S.
 
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From someone who had absolutely no direction in high school, did not shine and changed around in college, I have some advice. She is in High School, so the main thing she needs to concentrate on is taking as many AP courses as possible to get a leg up on the competition. I remember how daunting it was coming to my University and competing with people who had already taken calculus, physics, chemistry, etc... in high school. Taking these courses in high school will prepare her tremendously for the rigors of her "pre-med" courses. Also, do not listen to the posters who are saying "don't 'settle' for anything less than a top 20 medical school." Their ignorance about the matter clearly illustrates how far along in the process they are. There is no such thing as a "bad" LCME accredited medical school. I have observed that your education is mainly what you make of it. Hope this helps.
 
From someone who had absolutely no direction in high school, did not shine and changed around in college, I have some advice. She is in High School, so the main thing she needs to concentrate on is taking as many AP courses as possible to get a leg up on the competition. I remember how daunting it was coming to my University and competing with people who had already taken calculus, physics, chemistry, etc... in high school. Taking these courses in high school will prepare her tremendously for the rigors of her "pre-med" courses. Also, do not listen to the posters who are saying "don't 'settle' for anything less than a top 20 medical school." Their ignorance about the matter clearly illustrates how far along in the process they are. There is no such thing as a "bad" LCME accredited medical school. I have observed that your education is mainly what you make of it. Hope this helps.


Good advice. But i would not go too crazy with AP classes. By the time your daughter is in college, she will likely have forgotten a lot of what she learned in these classes. I took the same gen chem and gen physics twice classes in my university (with about a three year gap in between), and the second time around it hardly felt like i was taking it for a second time. I definitely did not feel that I had a leg up on the competition. The stuff looked somewhat familiar, but I had forgotten most of it. The same thing happened with MCAT orgo when I took the MCATs a few years after taking orgo...I felt like i had to re-learn everything, and i didnt really remember much. I think we over-rate how good our memory is.

Similar reasoning goes into my study habits for my college classes. I see many people going crazy in class even when the exam is still a month away. Much of that effort is wasted by the time exams come around, because they forget so much of it. It is much better to relax as much as possible until there is 2-3 days left before the exam - then you can go crazy with the studying - and you will actually remember what you studied.



Your daughter should just relax right now and have as much fun as possible. Don't stress her out. She can't put any high school EC activities (like volunteering, shadowing, etc) on her medical school applications anyway, so dont force that upon her. I would, however, make her shadow a few doctors so she can better see what her dream job actually entails.
 
Your daughter should just relax right now and have as much fun as possible. Don't stress her out. She can't put any high school EC activities (like volunteering, shadowing, etc) on her medical school applications anyway, so dont force that upon her.

+1

She's in 9th grade. She's got a long way to go. Not to mention that the majority of people who go into college like "I wanna be pre-med" bail out pretty quickly. If she wants to be pre-med when she gets to college she needs to talk with the pre-med advisor at her school and deal with it when she gets there.
She's also going to have to the motivation to do this stuff on her own, to research what it takes, what it costs, etc on HER OWN! If she doesn't do it on her own then she doesn't want it that much. Mommy can't hold her hand forever and call her up junior year in college like "now are you doing this yet? and how's your PS going? need me to proof read it? Will it help me to call the prof and tell him you want a rec letter?" etc.
 
Good advice. But i would not go too crazy with AP classes. By the time your daughter is in college, she will likely have forgotten a lot of what she learned in these classes. I took the same gen chem and gen physics twice classes in my university (with about a three year gap in between), and the second time around it hardly felt like i was taking it for a second time. I definitely did not feel that I had a leg up on the competition. The stuff looked somewhat familiar, but I had forgotten most of it. The same thing happened with MCAT orgo when I took the MCATs a few years after taking orgo...I felt like i had to re-learn everything, and i didnt really remember much. I think we over-rate how good our memory is.

Similar reasoning goes into my study habits for my college classes. I see many people going crazy in class even when the exam is still a month away. Much of that effort is wasted by the time exams come around, because they forget so much of it. It is much better to relax as much as possible until there is 2-3 days left before the exam - then you can go crazy with the studying - and you will actually remember what you studied.



Your daughter should just relax right now and have as much fun as possible. Don't stress her out. She can't put any high school EC activities (like volunteering, shadowing, etc) on her medical school applications anyway, so dont force that upon her. I would, however, make her shadow a few doctors so she can better see what her dream job actually entails.

I must disagree, respectfully of course. It may differ from person to person in terms of memory retention, but IMO any heads up you can get when you get thrown into the cauldron of fire that is college BCMP (Biology, Chemistry, Math, Physics) courses is always a plus. Many of my friends who had taken these courses in high school beasted them in college which freed up time for classes they struggled in.
 
You really paint a grim picture of medicine. While I agree that people should be aware of the pitfalls of leading life as a doctor, you really didn't emphasize any of the positives. The job itself is amazing, you meet plenty of interesting people every day, you work with interesting people, your intellectual abilities are tested on a regular basis, you have the ability to lead a talented group of nurses, residents, etc later on, most doctors live financially comfortable, the job requires that you be constantly learning, you spend your life helping others out, and the list goes on.

You have to deal with annoying depositions, lawsuits, paperwork, angry patients, angry nurses, and angry doctors, but every job has its drawbacks. I defy you to find one job on this Earth that is absolutely perfect. Medicine, to me, is one of the few unique professions where the good far outweighs the bad. Everyone is worrying about how much doctors are going to make and what not, and I would be lying to you if I told you that money was not a factor to me, but as long as I can live relatively comfortably, medicine is the way to go. Again, I think it's great for residents to tell their stories about how little they get to see their families, how much malpractice insurance costs, and how much paperwork they have to do. It would be ignorant entering into a profession not knowing what to expect. I certainly won't sit here and tell you that I think I know everything about how bad it can get at some points, but overall, I think I can say with certainty that medicine is still and will always be an inspirational profession.

Also, on the topic of divorce, let's examine the probability of meeting divorced doctors, assuming that they have neither a lower nor a higher risk for divorce than anyone else in the nation. You met what? Four surgeons? The probability that they were all divorced, not considering that they were all doctors, is (1/2)^4= 0.0625 or 6.25%, and that's certainly not an impossiblly low percentage (some medical schools have admissions rates that low). You could have met four divorced teachers or lawyers equally as likely. Take a look at the interesting article below, it may dispel your divorce worries. Doctors seem to be below the average, at least 12 years ago.

Physicians' Divorce Risk May Be Linked To Specialty Choice

Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions

March 13, 1997


A Johns Hopkins study finds that physicians in some specialties -- chiefly psychiatry and surgery -- are at higher risk for divorce than their medical brethren in other fields. But the results do not support the common view that job-related anxiety and depression are linked to marital breakup.

Alerting medical students to the risks of divorce in some specialties may influence their career choices and strengthen their marriages whatever field they choose, says Michael J. Klag, M.D., senior author and an associate professor of medicine.


"Marital counseling during residency training appears to be a good idea for family and career satisfaction in the long term," Klag says. The study, supported by the National Institutes of Health, is published in the March 13 issue of The New England Journal of Medicine.


Results also strongly suggest that the high divorce risk in some specialties may result from the inherent demands of the job as well as the emotional experiences of physicians who enter those fields.
. The Hopkins team assessed the specialty choices, marriage histories, psychological characteristics, and other career and personal factors of 1,118 physicians who graduated from The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine from 1948 through 1964.


Over 30 years of follow-up, the divorce rate was 51 percent for psychiatrists, 33 percent for surgeons, 24 percent for internists, 22 percent for pediatricians and pathologists, and 31 percent for other specialties. The overall divorce rate was 29 percent after three decades of follow-up and 32 percent after nearly four decades of follow-up.


Physicians who married before medical school graduation had a higher divorce rate than those who waited until after graduation (33 percent versus 23 percent). The year of first marriage was linked with divorce rates: 11 percent for marriages before 1953, 17 percent for those from 1953 to 1957, 24 percent for those from 1958 to 1962 and 21 percent for those after 1962. Those who had a parent die before medical school graduation had a lower divorce rate.

Female physicians had a higher divorce rate (37 percent) than their male colleagues (28 percent). Physicians who were members of an academic honor society in medical school had a lower divorce rate, although there was no difference in divorce rates according to class rank. Religious affiliation, being an only child, having a parent who was a physician and having a divorced parent were not associated with divorce rates.


Physicians who reported themselves to be less emotionally close to their parents and who expressed more anger under stress also had a significantly higher divorce rate, but anxiety and depression levels were not associated with divorce rate.


"Healthy marriages have deep affection, compatibility, expressiveness and conflict resolution, so the higher risk of divorce in those less emotionally close to their parents could be telling," says Klag. "Feeling distant from your parents may indicate a decreased ability to form an intimate relationship with your spouse. Also, marriage after medical school may allow the relationship to develop in a less stressful environment."


Researchers cautioned that the study, which looked at marital histories through 1987, did not address quality of marriage and that physicians may be more likely to stay in poor marriages for financial and social reasons. Also, most physicians in the study were white males first married in the 1940s and 1950s when divorce was less socially acceptable, so the risks may vary for contemporary physicians, who include more women and minorities, say researchers.


Future studies should examine the quality of marriage, physicians' and spouses' views of their relationship, society's changing expectations of marriage, more women and minority physicians, and the effect of medical school debt and other stresses on divorce risks, the researchers say.


Co-authors of the study, which was part of the Johns Hopkins Precursors Study, an ongoing, prospective study of physicians from the Hopkins medical school graduating classes of 1948 through 1964, were lead author Bruce L. Rollman, M.D., Lucy A. Mead, Sc.M., and Nae-Yuh Wang, M.S.

Thank you for this! I think that the "naysayers" of medicine are always too dramatic. The two docs I shadowed work 8-5. One gets 12 weeks paid vacation per year, the other gets hardly any. Of course, the one with the 12 weeks has a bonkers good lifestyle (better than almost ANY job), and the other is not a horror story, but would be nice to get a vacation.

I think docs who hate their lifestyle have the option to change it, but it might mean taking a hit in their career, maybe a different hospital or practice or whatever. I imagine the problem there may be overvaluing of the career v. family, even though they would like both to be awesome.

This is conjecture though... I'd read the posted news article.
 
Wow, thank you so much for everyone's time and responses. My daughter and I really do appreciate it a lot. All of the opinions and advise were very helpful...yes, even the ones that are on the negative side of being becoming a dr.

I totally agree, my daughter is still young and has a long road ahead of her to change her mind. She amazes me because she is very interested in her education...not like the typical teen girl :laugh:! She is always talking about college. She is always talking about being a doctor. I mean, she is just so focused (at least as of right now) as to what she wants to do. She is very competitive. All in all (and not because she is my child), she is a good girl that has high goals. We (her parents) tell her to enjoy her youth. And she does. But over all, she focuses a lot in school. I think that she is also influenced a lot because all of her friends are Asians and they are really disciplined and are really smart (not to put any other race down by any means).

I want to get as much advise from those that have been there done that or are currently in that phase. I want to be able to gather as much information so that I may be able to better help her when she asks me for help.

I did not think about having her shadow a doctor before. How would I go about that? I am thinking about asking her pediatrician to see if she would be willing to allow my daughter to shadow her. Or is there some type of shadowing program that we are not aware of?

Another thing I need advise on.....

She has a couple of friends who are going to go to UC Berkeley in the summer (they are 9th graders) and they are going to take science courses. By doing this summer program at the UC, they will be able to skip a whole year of regular high school science and take up a higher level of science. By the way, it can be done for math also (and I think that it can be done for other courses as well, not 100% sure though).

So my question is...should I let her do all of the extra work during the summer? I mean, is it really necessary? I will be talking to her counselor on Tuesday, but would love to get some input from you all.

She tells me that she thinks it would be great because that way she is not only able to take a higher science course (which is what she enjoys), but she tells me that it will look good for her undergrad college application too (which by the way, she wants to aim for a high end college as well). I tell you, I have my hands full with my daughter 😱....(I say this in a positive way of course :laugh:).

I am so blessed to have found this forum 🙂. I think that it is great to have a place where we parents, students or whom ever for that matter, can have a place where we can come and gather information.

Once again, I want to thank everyone! And I want to congratulate those that are in med school already and wish those that are pre-med students the best of luck :luck:!

We all need support. We all need advise. We all need each other.

Thanks!
😍
 
Wow, thank you so much for everyone's time and responses. My daughter and I really do appreciate it a lot. All of the opinions and advise were very helpful...yes, even the ones that are on the negative side of being becoming a dr.

I totally agree, my daughter is still young and has a long road ahead of her to change her mind. She amazes me because she is very interested in her education...not like the typical teen girl :laugh:! She is always talking about college. She is always talking about being a doctor. I mean, she is just so focused (at least as of right now) as to what she wants to do. She is very competitive. All in all (and not because she is my child), she is a good girl that has high goals. We (her parents) tell her to enjoy her youth. And she does. But over all, she focuses a lot in school. I think that she is also influenced a lot because all of her friends are Asians and they are really disciplined and are really smart (not to put any other race down by any means).

I want to get as much advise from those that have been there done that or are currently in that phase. I want to be able to gather as much information so that I may be able to better help her when she asks me for help.

I did not think about having her shadow a doctor before. How would I go about that? I am thinking about asking her pediatrician to see if she would be willing to allow my daughter to shadow her. Or is there some type of shadowing program that we are not aware of?

Another thing I need advise on.....

She has a couple of friends who are going to go to UC Berkeley in the summer (they are 9th graders) and they are going to take science courses. By doing this summer program at the UC, they will be able to skip a whole year of regular high school science and take up a higher level of science. By the way, it can be done for math also (and I think that it can be done for other courses as well, not 100% sure though).

So my question is...should I let her do all of the extra work during the summer? I mean, is it really necessary? I will be talking to her counselor on Tuesday, but would love to get some input from you all.

She tells me that she thinks it would be great because that way she is not only able to take a higher science course (which is what she enjoys), but she tells me that it will look good for her undergrad college application too (which by the way, she wants to aim for a high end college as well). I tell you, I have my hands full with my daughter 😱....(I say this in a positive way of course :laugh:).

I am so blessed to have found this forum 🙂. I think that it is great to have a place where we parents, students or whom ever for that matter, can have a place where we can come and gather information.

Once again, I want to thank everyone! And I want to congratulate those that are in med school already and wish those that are pre-med students the best of luck :luck:!

We all need support. We all need advise. We all need each other.

Thanks!
😍

That would do it. I would suggest that she also try out the "hospital environment" by doing a volunteer program specifically geared for high school students. The hospital I volunteer at has them, and while they don't have clinical roles, its just good to get a feel for the hospital. She can definitely shadow a pediatrician or any other speciality she may become interested in eventually.

I'm not sure about the UC Berkeley classes...they may help. However, I would question spending the whole summer taking classes so early. The time will come when she will be spending all summer in school (trust me, I've done this recently..its not fun 🙁 ). I would suggest another extracurricular activity that would show leadership for applying to undergrads, such as camp counselor or organizing fundraisers etc. Stuff that you can't really do in high school during the year. The decision is of course up to her, and she sounds really smart and dedicated, but really encourage her not to make education her whole life at this point. Many people have gotten into great schools without spending 24/7 studying. Being young and carefree quickly fades in a pre-med's life for most people and it never comes back so enjoy it while its there!

p.s. I think its great that you're trying to be so supportive from this early on. My parents are supportive too but I don't think they would have ever thought to research anything on their own. Kudos for the awesome parenting! 🙂
 
So my question is...should I let her do all of the extra work during the summer? I mean, is it really necessary? I will be talking to her counselor on Tuesday, but would love to get some input from you all.

She tells me that she thinks it would be great because that way she is not only able to take a higher science course (which is what she enjoys), but she tells me that it will look good for her undergrad college application too (which by the way, she wants to aim for a high end college as well).
No, it's not necessary. If she really wants to do it, then I guess it's a worthwhile investment.

This is not a sprint. It's a marathon. You don't get bonus points for running really fast for the first mile, especially since most pre-meds never even make it to med school in this process. If she's truly interested in this stuff, then I guess she might as well get lots of things accomplished, but now's a good time to just relax too...
 
Wow, thank you so much for everyone's time and responses. My daughter and I really do appreciate it a lot. All of the opinions and advise were very helpful...yes, even the ones that are on the negative side of being becoming a dr.

I totally agree, my daughter is still young and has a long road ahead of her to change her mind. She amazes me because she is very interested in her education...not like the typical teen girl :laugh:! She is always talking about college. She is always talking about being a doctor. I mean, she is just so focused (at least as of right now) as to what she wants to do. She is very competitive. All in all (and not because she is my child), she is a good girl that has high goals. We (her parents) tell her to enjoy her youth. And she does. But over all, she focuses a lot in school. I think that she is also influenced a lot because all of her friends are Asians and they are really disciplined and are really smart (not to put any other race down by any means).

I want to get as much advise from those that have been there done that or are currently in that phase. I want to be able to gather as much information so that I may be able to better help her when she asks me for help.

I did not think about having her shadow a doctor before. How would I go about that? I am thinking about asking her pediatrician to see if she would be willing to allow my daughter to shadow her. Or is there some type of shadowing program that we are not aware of?

Another thing I need advise on.....

She has a couple of friends who are going to go to UC Berkeley in the summer (they are 9th graders) and they are going to take science courses. By doing this summer program at the UC, they will be able to skip a whole year of regular high school science and take up a higher level of science. By the way, it can be done for math also (and I think that it can be done for other courses as well, not 100% sure though).

So my question is...should I let her do all of the extra work during the summer? I mean, is it really necessary? I will be talking to her counselor on Tuesday, but would love to get some input from you all.

She tells me that she thinks it would be great because that way she is not only able to take a higher science course (which is what she enjoys), but she tells me that it will look good for her undergrad college application too (which by the way, she wants to aim for a high end college as well). I tell you, I have my hands full with my daughter 😱....(I say this in a positive way of course :laugh:).

I am so blessed to have found this forum 🙂. I think that it is great to have a place where we parents, students or whom ever for that matter, can have a place where we can come and gather information.

Once again, I want to thank everyone! And I want to congratulate those that are in med school already and wish those that are pre-med students the best of luck :luck:!

We all need support. We all need advise. We all need each other.

Thanks!
😍

Just a word of caution, be VERY CAREFUL when taking courses at a Community College or at a University. If/When she applies to Medical School, AMCAS requires all transcripts from any work done at any post-secondary institution, even if she took those courses as a high-school student. They will include those grades into her gpa by the time she applies so depending on her performance, it may or may not come back to haunt her. Good luck.
 
From someone who had absolutely no direction in high school, did not shine and changed around in college, I have some advice. She is in High School, so the main thing she needs to concentrate on is taking as many AP courses as possible to get a leg up on the competition. I remember how daunting it was coming to my University and competing with people who had already taken calculus, physics, chemistry, etc... in high school. Taking these courses in high school will prepare her tremendously for the rigors of her "pre-med" courses. Also, do not listen to the posters who are saying "don't 'settle' for anything less than a top 20 medical school." Their ignorance about the matter clearly illustrates how far along in the process they are. There is no such thing as a "bad" LCME accredited medical school. I have observed that your education is mainly what you make of it. Hope this helps.

👍 Agreed. Any prior coursework relevant to any of the prereqs will definitely give you a leg up when competing with other students for the top of the curve.
 
Wow, thank you so much for everyone's time and responses. My daughter and I really do appreciate it a lot. All of the opinions and advise were very helpful...yes, even the ones that are on the negative side of being becoming a dr.

I totally agree, my daughter is still young and has a long road ahead of her to change her mind. She amazes me because she is very interested in her education...not like the typical teen girl :laugh:! She is always talking about college. She is always talking about being a doctor. I mean, she is just so focused (at least as of right now) as to what she wants to do. She is very competitive. All in all (and not because she is my child), she is a good girl that has high goals. We (her parents) tell her to enjoy her youth. And she does. But over all, she focuses a lot in school. I think that she is also influenced a lot because all of her friends are Asians and they are really disciplined and are really smart (not to put any other race down by any means).

I want to get as much advise from those that have been there done that or are currently in that phase. I want to be able to gather as much information so that I may be able to better help her when she asks me for help.

I did not think about having her shadow a doctor before. How would I go about that? I am thinking about asking her pediatrician to see if she would be willing to allow my daughter to shadow her. Or is there some type of shadowing program that we are not aware of?

Another thing I need advise on.....

She has a couple of friends who are going to go to UC Berkeley in the summer (they are 9th graders) and they are going to take science courses. By doing this summer program at the UC, they will be able to skip a whole year of regular high school science and take up a higher level of science. By the way, it can be done for math also (and I think that it can be done for other courses as well, not 100% sure though).

So my question is...should I let her do all of the extra work during the summer? I mean, is it really necessary? I will be talking to her counselor on Tuesday, but would love to get some input from you all.

She tells me that she thinks it would be great because that way she is not only able to take a higher science course (which is what she enjoys), but she tells me that it will look good for her undergrad college application too (which by the way, she wants to aim for a high end college as well). I tell you, I have my hands full with my daughter 😱....(I say this in a positive way of course :laugh:).

I am so blessed to have found this forum 🙂. I think that it is great to have a place where we parents, students or whom ever for that matter, can have a place where we can come and gather information.

Once again, I want to thank everyone! And I want to congratulate those that are in med school already and wish those that are pre-med students the best of luck :luck:!

We all need support. We all need advise. We all need each other.

Thanks!
😍
lol your daugter is hardcore. summer science courses at ucb for a rising 10th grader? it's great that she is so focused.. i just hope she is interested in medicine for the right reasons!

i'd say go ahead and take the courses if there is nothing else she'd rather do... but she has to do very well of course; all college courses need to be reported when she applies to med school. be carefull not to let her overextend herself. im sure that's one reason why you are meeting with the guidance councelor? to see how similar students have fared in ucb summer courses and to see if it is worth the investment?

and i'd like to add that it would be great if she had some other significant activities (definitely not limited to medical activities).. wouldnt want to come off as one-dimensional (just book-smart)! top schools love seeing well rounded students (as well as those who are very talented in an area and persue that area with vigor) but just having good grades and doing well on college courses wont automatically make her stand out. there are tons more bright, motivated, and high-achieving high school seniors than spots at top schools (schools like harvard which accept <10% of applicants could easily fill their classes with ~2400/4.0 students but they want a balanced and diverse [in terms of activities, geographic/socioeconomic/cultural backrounds, talents, motivations, prospective careers]). those schools want to create a class that will take full advantage of school resources to better themselves and go out and be leaders in all fields imaginable when they graduate.

PS for her 10th grade year she should be looking into internships or other cool summer programs afforded to rising seniors. it doesnt have to be just research, but those programs are generally very competitive to get into and their graduates typically do very well in the college application process. high school students with serious experiences like those have to be taken seriously because it shows great initiative to even apply, great focus and talent to be accepted, and great promise to do well, finish the program, and learn something significant about themselves and or fields they would like to persue... i know you were not asking for this advice but i've been giving a lot of college app advice to some younger fam members recently 😛
 
People experience those problems much more because, in general, they lack either the drive or intelligence that it requires to get into such competitive universities. If OP's daughter is interested in one of them then by all means aim for it, but don't feel like it is an all or nothing deal. In fact, I would dare say that getting into one of those Universities is probably a good sign, even if you don't end up going there.

I also especially disagree with 5 and 6. Especially 5, that's just wrong. Nobody under the top 20 gets a residency? Are you serious? I mean, if you had said top residency I would still disagree but at least I could see where you are coming from. The others are extreme points of view for the most part as well. Except number 1.

3. Nothing less than Ivy League, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, or Stanford for undergrad. People who go to a non-elite schools experience problems getting into medical school.

4. Probably something challenging like Biochemistry, Biomedical Engineering, Physical chemistry, or Molecular Neuroscience or one of those "hard science" majors. Don't major in film or underwater basket weaving or anything like that. The adcoms can see past the bluff if you pick an easy major.

Is this a joke? I go to a state school and am accepted to 2 med schools....and I know a ton of other that are accepted, school does NOT matter.

Second, my boss who is an attending at a top 30 med school majored in history in undergrad and went to a good med school.....to the OP they look at your performance in pre reqs but DO NOT care what you major in.

Oh wait, did I just get trolled...🙄

Wrong. Idiot.

Is this a joke? Almost all of the points are hilariously inaccurate or extreme!

Look up the NRMP analysis on (3rd edition, 2009) residency matching; the study shows that graduating from a top-40 NIH funded medical school is insignificant when compared to step 1 scores, AOA status, and number of programs listed.

The word on the street is that its better to major in an "easy major" while taking the pre-med courses since the admission committees apparently don't care (to a certain extent) what one majors in.

I'm not seeing how you have 5,000/year as the take home pay. I'll dedicate roughly 33,000 of gross salary each year to pay off the loan debt over 30 years. (loan payments could be higher but its more accurate to have it spread out over 30 years to compare salary with other careers. A 30 year working career should be accurate/realistic) Look at the salary surveys and talk to practicing doctors; the money isn't THAT bad in medicine. The income potential isn't like business or law but its still sufficient for most people.

sarcasm recognition FAIL. for all of you. and some of you have been around a while... tsk tsk :nono::smack:

😛

my opinion? OP, leave SDN and don't come back. at least, don't come back until your kid's in college. let her just be a high school student. 🙄
 
Hmmm...a red flags going up for me here. When I told my parents I wanted to pursue med school in 9th grade my parents went wachy--they started telling everyone they met that I was going to be a doc and lecturing me on school and CONTROLLING MY LIFE.

My mind changed a million times during high school (which most likely will also be the case for your daughter) but they still held me to those unrelenting expectations. So I told them my senior year that I wasn't going down the medical path and to please shut up about it.

Now that I'm in college and free from the parental pressure I have once again decided to pursue med school knowing full well the expectations I alone will need to HAVE FOR MYSELF.

It would have just helped if my parents had been supportive but not expecting. Make sure your daughter knows she has the whole world out there and all of the opportunities in it. The true decision to apply to med school won't come until much later--she might even shadow a doc to see if it's even something she's genuinely interested in. I know my first perception of doctor life came from Grey's Anatomy episodes...far from the truth :laugh:
 
No, it's not necessary. If she really wants to do it, then I guess it's a worthwhile investment.

This is not a sprint. It's a marathon. You don't get bonus points for running really fast for the first mile, especially since most pre-meds never even make it to med school in this process. If she's truly interested in this stuff, then I guess she might as well get lots of things accomplished, but now's a good time to just relax too...

This is good advice. Of course taking science classes at a college during high school is not necessary, and it might not even be a good idea - read these threads and you will find tons of people who fouled up their BCPM doing this very thing (you do realize that the grades in college level classes taken during high school count towards the BCPM GPA, right?).

A 15 year old should not be developing tunnel vision about becoming a doctor. The paths to medicine have never been more diverse than they are today. Med schools admit people from lib arts backgrounds, business, the performing arts - and what all of these people have in common is passion, commitment, and excellence.

Is your daughter involved in the music or drama program at school, or any other extracurriculars? Does she have above average talent and commitment to this? She should be developing these sorts of interests and passions - be it sports, music, the arts, community service, whatever...
 
You really paint a grim picture of medicine. While I agree that people should be aware of the pitfalls of leading life as a doctor, you really didn't emphasize any of the positives. The job itself is amazing, you meet plenty of interesting people every day, you work with interesting people, your intellectual abilities are tested on a regular basis, you have the ability to lead a talented group of nurses, residents, etc later on, most doctors live financially comfortable, the job requires that you be constantly learning, you spend your life helping others out, and the list goes on.

You have to deal with annoying depositions, lawsuits, paperwork, angry patients, angry nurses, and angry doctors, but every job has its drawbacks. I defy you to find one job on this Earth that is absolutely perfect. Medicine, to me, is one of the few unique professions where the good far outweighs the bad. Everyone is worrying about how much doctors are going to make and what not, and I would be lying to you if I told you that money was not a factor to me, but as long as I can live relatively comfortably, medicine is the way to go. Again, I think it's great for residents to tell their stories about how little they get to see their families, how much malpractice insurance costs, and how much paperwork they have to do. It would be ignorant entering into a profession not knowing what to expect. I certainly won't sit here and tell you that I think I know everything about how bad it can get at some points, but overall, I think I can say with certainty that medicine is still and will always be an inspirational profession.

Also, on the topic of divorce, let's examine the probability of meeting divorced doctors, assuming that they have neither a lower nor a higher risk for divorce than anyone else in the nation. You met what? Four surgeons? The probability that they were all divorced, not considering that they were all doctors, is (1/2)^4= 0.0625 or 6.25%, and that's certainly not an impossiblly low percentage (some medical schools have admissions rates that low). You could have met four divorced teachers or lawyers equally as likely. Take a look at the interesting article below, it may dispel your divorce worries. Doctors seem to be below the average, at least 12 years ago.

Physicians' Divorce Risk May Be Linked To Specialty Choice

Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions

March 13, 1997


A Johns Hopkins study finds that physicians in some specialties -- chiefly psychiatry and surgery -- are at higher risk for divorce than their medical brethren in other fields. But the results do not support the common view that job-related anxiety and depression are linked to marital breakup.

Alerting medical students to the risks of divorce in some specialties may influence their career choices and strengthen their marriages whatever field they choose, says Michael J. Klag, M.D., senior author and an associate professor of medicine.


"Marital counseling during residency training appears to be a good idea for family and career satisfaction in the long term," Klag says. The study, supported by the National Institutes of Health, is published in the March 13 issue of The New England Journal of Medicine.


Results also strongly suggest that the high divorce risk in some specialties may result from the inherent demands of the job as well as the emotional experiences of physicians who enter those fields.
. The Hopkins team assessed the specialty choices, marriage histories, psychological characteristics, and other career and personal factors of 1,118 physicians who graduated from The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine from 1948 through 1964.


Over 30 years of follow-up, the divorce rate was 51 percent for psychiatrists, 33 percent for surgeons, 24 percent for internists, 22 percent for pediatricians and pathologists, and 31 percent for other specialties. The overall divorce rate was 29 percent after three decades of follow-up and 32 percent after nearly four decades of follow-up.


Physicians who married before medical school graduation had a higher divorce rate than those who waited until after graduation (33 percent versus 23 percent). The year of first marriage was linked with divorce rates: 11 percent for marriages before 1953, 17 percent for those from 1953 to 1957, 24 percent for those from 1958 to 1962 and 21 percent for those after 1962. Those who had a parent die before medical school graduation had a lower divorce rate.

Female physicians had a higher divorce rate (37 percent) than their male colleagues (28 percent). Physicians who were members of an academic honor society in medical school had a lower divorce rate, although there was no difference in divorce rates according to class rank. Religious affiliation, being an only child, having a parent who was a physician and having a divorced parent were not associated with divorce rates.


Physicians who reported themselves to be less emotionally close to their parents and who expressed more anger under stress also had a significantly higher divorce rate, but anxiety and depression levels were not associated with divorce rate.


"Healthy marriages have deep affection, compatibility, expressiveness and conflict resolution, so the higher risk of divorce in those less emotionally close to their parents could be telling," says Klag. "Feeling distant from your parents may indicate a decreased ability to form an intimate relationship with your spouse. Also, marriage after medical school may allow the relationship to develop in a less stressful environment."


Researchers cautioned that the study, which looked at marital histories through 1987, did not address quality of marriage and that physicians may be more likely to stay in poor marriages for financial and social reasons. Also, most physicians in the study were white males first married in the 1940s and 1950s when divorce was less socially acceptable, so the risks may vary for contemporary physicians, who include more women and minorities, say researchers.


Future studies should examine the quality of marriage, physicians' and spouses' views of their relationship, society's changing expectations of marriage, more women and minority physicians, and the effect of medical school debt and other stresses on divorce risks, the researchers say.


Co-authors of the study, which was part of the Johns Hopkins Precursors Study, an ongoing, prospective study of physicians from the Hopkins medical school graduating classes of 1948 through 1964, were lead author Bruce L. Rollman, M.D., Lucy A. Mead, Sc.M., and Nae-Yuh Wang, M.S.

Lurking variables--the paper makes note of that. Also, it's over 10 years old, specific to Hopkins. The practice has changed, and you have to consider regional differences.

Not very reliable.

BUT...I'm sorry I didn't make note of the positive aspects of medicine. There are many, but it isn't a very family friendly profession, regardless of specialty (barring a very, very few I suppose). Medicine isn't perfect Beta cell, but the quality of life ranks very low my friend.

Unless you go into concierge medicine...but let's not go down that dark, lonely road...
 
Lurking variables--the paper makes note of that. Also, it's over 10 years old, specific to Hopkins. The practice has changed, and you have to consider regional differences.

Not very reliable.

BUT...I'm sorry I didn't make note of the positive aspects of medicine. There are many, but it isn't a very family friendly profession, regardless of specialty (barring a very, very few I suppose). Medicine isn't perfect Beta cell, but the quality of life ranks very low my friend.

Unless you go into concierge medicine...but let's not go down that dark, lonely road...

The paper is specific to people who went to Hopkins, not to people who work at Hopkins. It's certainly enough to get a flavor. The actual results won't differ much from what you saw. Medicine isn't for everyone, I suppose.
 
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