Terminal surgeries?

[felinelvr44]

Davis does not. However - we have an AWESOME surgical rotation where surgeries are done for members of the community who are unable to afford full price and allows their students to get surgical experience on more than spays and neuters. (amputations, mass removals, orthopedic surgery....CAN'T WAIT!)

This sounds like an awesome alternative. Why don't all schools do this?

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[that redhead]

I'm OK with terminal surgeries, even if it is a sad thing. The only difference I see between using a cadaver for anatomy, for example, and using an animal for a terminal surgery is that you never knew the cadaver dog (hopefully), but you get to see the terminal surgery animal alive and wagging its tail. They are both destined to be euthanized- it isn't as if your deciding to participate in a terminal surgery results in an animal that would otherwise live now being condemned to death. Why not give that animal's death some value and significance by using it to learn? Additionally, the animal doesn't know the difference. It goes under and never comes up again- a risk you take with your own pets whenever you have them anesthetized at the vet for a dental cleaning or other surgery.

 

[dvmdreamer]

I'm OK with terminal surgeries, even if it is a sad thing. The only difference I see between using a cadaver for anatomy, for example, and using an animal for a terminal surgery is that you never knew the cadaver dog (hopefully), but you get to see the terminal surgery animal alive and wagging its tail. They are both destined to be euthanized- it isn't as if your deciding to participate in a terminal surgery results in an animal that would otherwise live now being condemned to death. Why not give that animal's death some value and significance by using it to learn? Additionally, the animal doesn't know the difference. It goes under and never comes up again- a risk you take with your own pets whenever you have them anesthetized at the vet for a dental cleaning or other surgery.

Thank you for posting this, I was starting to feel cold hearted that I see it just as you said.

I would actually have more issue with doing surgery for the first time on a pet of person who did't have means to pay normal price. I don't want to be responsible for doing something wrong on the pet that may be the one thing giving someone hope, just because I'm inexperienced. I'm sure its carefully monitored and everything, just.... that's a lot of pressure. As someone who has been at the public assistance point in life before, I know what its like to have your pup's loving face be the only thing that keeps you going.

 

[Emiloo4]

I'm OK with terminal surgeries, even if it is a sad thing. The only difference I see between using a cadaver for anatomy, for example, and using an animal for a terminal surgery is that you never knew the cadaver dog (hopefully), but you get to see the terminal surgery animal alive and wagging its tail. They are both destined to be euthanized- it isn't as if your deciding to participate in a terminal surgery results in an animal that would otherwise live now being condemned to death. Why not give that animal's death some value and significance by using it to learn? Additionally, the animal doesn't know the difference. It goes under and never comes up again- a risk you take with your own pets whenever you have them anesthetized at the vet for a dental cleaning or other surgery.

My thoughts exactly

 

[that redhead]

Thank you for posting this, I was starting to feel cold hearted that I see it just as you said.

I would actually have more issue with doing surgery for the first time on a pet of person who did't have means to pay normal price. I don't want to be responsible for doing something wrong on the pet that may be the one thing giving someone hope, just because I'm inexperienced. I'm sure its carefully monitored and everything, just.... that's a lot of pressure. As someone who has been at the public assistance point in life before, I know what its like to have your pup's loving face be the only thing that keeps you going.

Glad I could help

 

[Trilt]

This sounds like an awesome alternative. Why don't all schools do this?

We have the Umstead act in NC that prevents government agencies from competing with private businesses, so that sort of program would probably be breaking that - there might be something similar in other states. Also I could see it getting a lot of flack from nearby veterinary clinics because of the obvious competition aspects.

 

[hygebeorht]

The issue of necessity v. humaneness is I think what's at heart when we talk about these kinds of practices. I think it's interesting to try to visualize our beliefs on axes, to help us think about these things and how they relate to each other and to ourselves.

It's hard to describe what I'm talking about, so I made a quick crude representation of where I usually fall on some of these tricky issues. I put vivisection on there because I couldn't think of anything that would be both inhumane and necessary, although I do not necessarily think it is necessary for anything - I just wanted something in that quadrant.

As you can see, I think terminal surgeries are likely both mostly necessary and as humane as any euthanasia.

Anyway, this graphic only represents (approximately and crudely) where I tend to fall on some of these types of issues. Everyone's graph would be different. Where would you all place terminal surgeries on these two axes?

 

[that redhead]

In before personal ethics meltdown.

 

[hygebeorht]

In before personal ethics meltdown.

LOL. I hope it doesn't melt down. But sigh, I suppose it might. I'm not in vet school yet, and who knows, maybe my views will change. I just made a little graph as an example of what I was trying to describe. I'm a visual person, so thinking about it visually helps me.

 

[Escalla]

Am I reading this right? Does that graph really show "testing cosmetics on animals" as more humane and more necessary than "slaughtering animals for food"?

 

[felinelvr44]

Am I reading this right? Does that graph really show "testing cosmetics on animals" as more humane and more necessary than "slaughtering animals for food"?

I think hygebeorht is a bit brave in posting her personal opinions on all of this but I think we should all remember that it is just that... her personal opinions. I can confidently say that my graph would look very different from this and I'm sure many people on this board would not agree with me.

 

[wildcatj]

Am I reading this right? Does that graph really show "testing cosmetics on animals" as more humane and more necessary than "slaughtering animals for food"?

Yes it does. I'm not even going to comment and just chalk it up to this individuals own personal outlook. So Hygebeorht, you "hope it doesn't meltdown"? You've just offered your very specific opinions on several pretty darn controversial topics (only one of which pertains at all to this thread mind you), so what the heck do you think is going to happen? And you've already admitted several posts back that no one is going to change your mind so there is no use in arguing. Sorry if all I see is you trolling...
Edit: I am feeling real cranky so this may be a little harsh for me, but it's still how it's coming off.

 

[Escalla]

I think hygebeorht is a bit brave in posting her personal opinions on all of this but I think we should all remember that it is just that... her personal opinions. I can confidently say that my graph would look very different from this and I'm sure many people on this board would not agree with me.

Yes it does. I'm not even going to comment and just chalk it up to this individuals own personal outlook. So Hygebeorht, you "hope it doesn't meltdown"? You've just offered your very specific opinions on several pretty darn controversial topics (only one of which pertains at all to this thread mind you), so what the heck do you think is going to happen? And you've already admitted several posts back that no one is going to change your mind so there is no use in arguing. Sorry if all I see is you trolling...
Edit: I am feeling real cranky so this may be a little harsh for me, but it's still how it's coming off.

I just wanted to confirm that I wasn't somehow misunderstanding it. I definitely don't want to start a war on personal opinions! However, I don't see how this chart is beneficial to this discussion...So...I'll be treating it as a trolling post and ignoring it.

 

[wildcatj]

I just wanted to confirm that I wasn't somehow misunderstanding it. I definitely don't want to start a war on personal opinions! However, I don't see how this chart is beneficial to this discussion...So...I'll be treating it as a trolling post and ignoring it.

I knew what you were getting at because I did the same... Huh? when I looked at it. I too am just going to ignore. I just don't understand the point.

 

[EngrSC]

I just wanted to confirm that I wasn't somehow misunderstanding it. I definitely don't want to start a war on personal opinions! However, I don't see how this chart is beneficial to this discussion...So...I'll be treating it as a trolling post and ignoring it.

I think I'm the only person that doesn't see a chart?? ... or is this a hypothetical chart??

 

[wildcatj]

I think I'm the only person that doesn't see a chart?? ... or is this a hypothetical chart??

It's a real chart. Perhaps you should consider yourself lucky haha.

 

[Escalla]

I think I'm the only person that doesn't see a chart?? ... or is this a hypothetical chart??

It's an image. I quoted it below. Any luck?

 

[PetPony]

Am I reading this right? Does that graph really show "testing cosmetics on animals" as more humane and more necessary than "slaughtering animals for food"?

I was about to say that too!

 

[EngrSC]

It's an image. I quoted it below. Any luck?

Nada, strange. For a second I thought I was losing my mind

 

[Angelo84]

Most of the schools have clear cut policies on their use or not of terminal surgeries--if they do them at all, and if they are mandatory. As a ER vet that graduated from Tufts terminal surgeries are not part of the curriculum. However we do have a donated body program for anatomy and we were able to use some of these animals in wet labs for procedural practice which was very helpful. The main benefit of terminal surgery vs cadaver is that a live animal bleeds and the feel of tissue is different. That said as an ER vet doing surgeries now I don't know how much benefit doing a single procedure with a terminal surgery would have helped vs cadaver "surgery". But I agree that reading Fossum's and actually doing the procedure described can be very different things!

 

[DVMDream]

Yes it does. I'm not even going to comment and just chalk it up to this individuals own personal outlook. So Hygebeorht, you "hope it doesn't meltdown"? You've just offered your very specific opinions on several pretty darn controversial topics (only one of which pertains at all to this thread mind you), so what the heck do you think is going to happen? And you've already admitted several posts back that no one is going to change your mind so there is no use in arguing. Sorry if all I see is you trolling...
Edit: I am feeling real cranky so this may be a little harsh for me, but it's still how it's coming off.

I saw this thread pop up to the top and figured that I would not touch it with a ten foot pole....

But I saw that and I have to agree with you on this. I don't see how that image serves any purpose in this thread or contributes to the discussion.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Most of the schools have clear cut policies on their use or not of terminal surgeries--if they do them at all, and if they are mandatory.

They do, but I think for the most part, the only schools that openly advertise their policies to non-students are those that do not perform terminal surgeries or have them as electives only. I'm sure if you get to the interview stage, they should be forthcoming... but it's not info that's available for all to see in a lot of cases. Some schools have had bad run ins with their own students "outing" their animal use to the media, and keep things as hush as possible when it comes to animal use of any kind including non-invasive teaching animal use. Especially when the students assertions are misguided and ignorant, it really puts a damper on things.

 

[KCgophervet]

Yes it does. I'm not even going to comment and just chalk it up to this individuals own personal outlook. So Hygebeorht, you "hope it doesn't meltdown"? You've just offered your very specific opinions on several pretty darn controversial topics (only one of which pertains at all to this thread mind you), so what the heck do you think is going to happen? And you've already admitted several posts back that no one is going to change your mind so there is no use in arguing. Sorry if all I see is you trolling...
Edit: I am feeling real cranky so this may be a little harsh for me, but it's still how it's coming off.

It's very harsh. Clearly Hygebeorht put some effort into trying to make a graphical representation of the issue at hand, showing exactly why they believe the topic (terminal surgery) is acceptable (because it falls under both necessary and ethical, in their opinion). Also listing some other "hot button" topics for comparison purposes helps make the rest of the figure more understandable (and I'm not saying I would put all the issues in the same places, just that I understand the idea). At the very least it adds to this thread and doesn't condemn, injure, or attack any other person's opinion or belief, which is EXACTLY what your comment on it did! Why are you attacking Hygebeorht for making a visual representation of how they personally feel about this topic? What harm did it do you? Perhaps you should have actually not commented, instead of claiming you weren't and then going ahead and doing so anyway.

It's a real chart. Perhaps you should consider yourself lucky haha.

This is just rude.

I saw this thread pop up to the top and figured that I would not touch it with a ten foot pole....

But I saw that and I have to agree with you on this. I don't see how that image serves any purpose in this thread or contributes to the discussion.

Again, not very nice.

Why can't we all stop hating on each other's ideas and opinions and instead try to respect others' opinions? If you disagree, then form reasoned arguments or just lay the facts down, there's no need to attack other people for what they've posted.

I just want to spread the

As far as the topic at hand goes, it may surprise you to know but I hadn't even thought about this at all until I started reading this thread! I find it hard to formulate a real opinion on the matter without actually being in vet school. I think I will have to get some more experience under my belt before deciding whether it's something I really want to be a part of, although at this point I'm leaning toward the side of "if they're going to be euth'd anyway, might as well give their death meaning."

 

[wildcatj]

It's very harsh. Clearly Hygebeorht put some effort into trying to make a graphical representation of the issue at hand, showing exactly why they believe the topic (terminal surgery) is acceptable (because it falls under both necessary and ethical, in their opinion). Also listing some other "hot button" topics for comparison purposes helps make the rest of the figure more understandable (and I'm not saying I would put all the issues in the same places, just that I understand the idea). At the very least it adds to this thread and doesn't condemn, injure, or attack any other person's opinion or belief, which is EXACTLY what your comment on it did! Why are you attacking Hygebeorht for making a visual representation of how they personally feel about this topic? What harm did it do you? Perhaps you should have actually not commented, instead of claiming you weren't and then going ahead and doing so anyway.

Why can't we all stop hating on each other's ideas and opinions and instead try to respect others' opinions? If you disagree, then form reasoned arguments or just lay the facts down, there's no need to attack other people for what they've posted.

I just want to spread the

As far as the topic at hand goes, it may surprise you to know but I hadn't even thought about this at all until I started reading this thread! I find it hard to formulate a real opinion on the matter without actually being in vet school. I think I will have to get some more experience under my belt before deciding whether it's something I really want to be a part of, although at this point I'm leaning toward the side of "if they're going to be euth'd anyway, might as well give their death meaning."

I didn't comment on her opinions. What I did comment on was that she was seemingly trying to incite a big stink, but then said "oh I hope this thread doesn't melt down". It just seems as though she she purposefully trying to start something by inserting other controversial topics when they hadn't been brought up before. I even edited to say that I was feeling extra cranky and that I knew I sounded harsh, but I still wanted to say that I didn't see the purpose of trying to start an argument. That's how it seemed to me. My maybe you're lucky you can't see it was aimed at the fact that it made me irritated because of what I felt she was trying to do with it, not because of the content (though I see that it probably came off as the later).

I am probably feeling particularly sensitive towards this individual's comments at the moment because of her post on the previous page (which she edited after I pointed out that she was not coming across positively) among others. I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear what I was criticizing.

 

[DVMDream]

Why can't we all stop hating on each other's ideas and opinions and instead try to respect others' opinions? If you disagree, then form reasoned arguments or just lay the facts down, there's no need to attack other people for what they've posted.

This is kind of the reason why wildcat and a few others of us responded a bit harshly... hygexxxxx (no I don't know how to spell it, it looks like random letters, we do this for many people on here and I will probably never know how to spell it) already mentioned that nobody will change their mind/opinions on any of the topics... why is she even posting her opinions/discussing it if she has already taken such a strong stance and refuses to see any other opinions/facts/etc... what was the point? Her post did nothing but to show us her opinions, which really don't matter since she will never take any other opinions/facts into consideration (which I do agree with her for the terminal surgeries... the rest not so much).

Threads on topics like this rarely ever work out because people are way too stubborn to change their opinions. And to have someone that has already very loudly claimed that they will never change their viewpoint continuing to post on the thread is like beating a dead horse, you can't have a conversation with them, you can't bring up any other facts, opinions, thoughts, article references, etc... because they have already stated they aren't going to change their beliefs. It becomes a pointless round and round disagreement of opinions with no one getting anywhere. If you have such a strong opinion on something that you can not discuss a topic with an OPEN mind, you probably should stay away from that topic.

Hopefully, this allowed you to see where we were coming from. Also, maybe it is just me, but just about every post from hygexxx seems to have a condescending tone to it... I am trying to not read her posts like that but some of the things are really condescending... like the "Hon" and the "you can copy/paste"....(these examples were from a different thread)

Perhaps I was being harsh, but I honestly don't understand why someone would keep posting in a thread when they know no one/nothing will change their mind, but they expect others to listen to them... seems a bit hypocritical to me.

 

[DVMDream]

I didn't comment on her opinions. What I did comment on was that they were seemingly trying to incite a big stink, but then said "oh I hope this thread doesn't melt down". It just seems as though she she purposefully trying to start something by inserting other controversial topics when they hadn't been brought up before. I even edited to say that I was feeling extra cranky and that I knew I sounded harsh, but I still wanted to say that I didn't see the purpose of trying to start an argument. That's how it seemed to me. My maybe you're lucky you can't see it was aimed at the fact that it made me irritated because of what I felt she was trying to do with it, not because of the content (though I see that it probably came off as the later).

I am probably feeling particularly sensitive towards this individual's comments at the moment because of her post on the previous page (which she edited after I pointed out that she was not coming across positively) among others. I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear what I was criticizing.

I think my response is a bit harsher....

Maybe I am getting really cranky... I would hate to take over Emiloo's bully title...

 

[wildcatj]

I think my response is a bit harsher....

Maybe I am getting really cranky... I would hate to take over Emiloo's bully title...

You and I can be cranky pants together. I don't feel like much fun lately, but I'm hoping it's just because I'm sick.

 

[DVMDream]

You and I can be cranky pants together. I don't feel like much fun lately, but I'm hoping it's just because I'm sick.

I don't feel like much fun lately either... I was sick earlier this week and this week they jam-packed our schedule with lectures, so I am feeling the vet school burn out right now as well, hoping that will get better. (Which reminds me, I left the ECG chart we did this week in my locker at the school... ).

 

[Escalla]

I think we are all pretty tired of people broadcasting their opinions on sensitive topics, kcoughli. H****** might enjoy these kinds of debates because she seems to start one in most threads. No one has a problem with a well thought out argument behind an opinion, but in general, a lot of us are becoming less tolerant of her posts that are seemingly meant to start a fire (intentional or not). This forum needs a break from arguing for a while. Between animal slaughter, dress codes, pre-vet clubs and terminal surgeries, everyone is just simply tired of it.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think we are all pretty tired of people broadcasting their opinions on sensitive topics

Just a suggestion. If you're tired of reading others' opinions on sensitive topics, maybe avoid those threads? Also, if a particular poster grates on your nerves, just click on their handle next to their post and a "add to your ignore list" option will pop up. If anyone is breaking the ToS, report the post.

As has been said before, there is a cyclic nature to these forums as new members come and go and all of these hot button topics will continue to come up and some people are bound to have strong opinions on them. Please remember that even though it may seem like "there's no point because so-and-so's opinions are set and there's no convincing him/her otherwise," that's not necessarily the point of these discussions. Even if a particular member is not listening, many others are. There are other members and lurkers that do come here to get opinions and learn things about topics they're not comfortable with or knowledgeable of.

 

[Escalla]

Just a suggestion. If you're tired of reading others' opinions on sensitive topics, maybe avoid those threads? Also, if a particular poster grates on your nerves, just click on their handle next to their post and a "add to your ignore list" option will pop up.

I will consider using this, thank you. I don't have a problem with debates or the topics and perhaps over generalized my statement. The issue for me is the nature of the posts and while it doesn't break the ToS, it's just plain tiresome. I think if it was a different individual every time I wouldn't have as much of an issue. So again, thanks for reminding me that the ignoring function is an option.

 

[twelvetigers]

This post is hidden because [blah blah] is on your ignore list.

Then there's an option to click and unhide.

I have yet to use it, but I have been mighty tempted before...

 

[PetPony]

I wonder how it would be to play a WW game where you 'ignore' the mod's posts.

(although that happens without clicking the button sometimes already..)

 

[Escalla]

Does the ignored person's post show up when someone who isn't on your ignore list quotes it?

 

[squirrelsrule]

Are terminal surgery dogs from shelters? I was under the impression (from talking to a vet) that the terminal surgery dogs are beagles bred for research and terminal surgeries. I am hoping I am wrong about that because terminal surgery on an animal bred for that just makes me sad. If the animals for terminal surgery come from a shelter that is going to euthanize the dog, I can accept that. It will still be sad, but the animal is going to die either way, so at least they will help us learn.

 

[dyachei]

Are terminal surgery dogs from shelters? I was under the impression (from talking to a vet) that the terminal surgery dogs are beagles bred for research and terminal surgeries. I am hoping I am wrong about that because terminal surgery on an animal bred for that just makes me sad. If the animals for terminal surgery come from a shelter that is going to euthanize the dog, I can accept that. It will still be sad, but the animal is going to die either way, so at least they will help us learn.

It depends on the legal situation in the the state. I'm fairly sure that at utk they were purpose bred dogs who had already been part of other research projects first and were older.

 

[nyanko]

I would actually have more issue with doing surgery for the first time on a pet of person who did't have means to pay normal price. I don't want to be responsible for doing something wrong on the pet that may be the one thing giving someone hope, just because I'm inexperienced. I'm sure its carefully monitored and everything, just.... that's a lot of pressure. As someone who has been at the public assistance point in life before, I know what its like to have your pup's loving face be the only thing that keeps you going.

OTOH, if it's between that and euthanizing the animal...

I don't know, personally I'm not sure whether I'd rather a fourth year student with faculty oversight do a surgical procedure on my pet or a recent grad DVM out on their own with likely no immediate oversight, if neither had done the specific surgery before. As far as I'm concerned, there's little difference between the two with respect to that particular surgery, and both need to learn somehow.

 

[dvmdreamer]

OTOH, if it's between that and euthanizing the animal...

I don't know, personally I'm not sure whether I'd rather a fourth year student with faculty oversight do a surgical procedure on my pet or a recent grad DVM out on their own with likely no immediate oversight, if neither had done the specific surgery before. As far as I'm concerned, there's little difference between the two with respect to that particular surgery, and both need to learn somehow.

Those are good points. I hadn't really thought about the difference between a fresh grad and a supervised 4th year. I guess the point I was trying to illustrate was that the very fist time I do surgery, I personally will feel more comfortable if I know there is no owner anxiously awaiting the outcome. I don't have issue with 4th years doing discounted surgery, I just would prefer to have a few procedures under my belt before I am "behind the knife" on a pet.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I don't have issue with 4th years doing discounted surgery, I just would prefer to have a few procedures under my belt before I am "behind the knife" on a pet.

You gotta take the plunge and do it at some point! Some animal is going to have to take the brunt of your newbie skills.

As long as you know how to take care of bleeders, know how to suture/ligate, know basics like not crushing skin, and understand the procedure enough that you can follow directions (and it's not a complicated referral procedure), it's pretty safe as long as you have an experienced surgeon in arms reach. They can check your work, and jump in and fix pretty much any oopsies you could possibly imagine unless you cut through the aorta or something. I've watched several "first time" surgeries by 4th years on pets, and it's not nearly as scary as you might imagine it to be. Especially when it's means tested low income pets that cannot afford salvage procedures like amputations and enucleations, a well monitored newbie surgery with loooooooots of pain control beats euthanasia imo.

 

[hygebeorht]

Are terminal surgery dogs from shelters? I was under the impression (from talking to a vet) that the terminal surgery dogs are beagles bred for research and terminal surgeries. I am hoping I am wrong about that because terminal surgery on an animal bred for that just makes me sad. If the animals for terminal surgery come from a shelter that is going to euthanize the dog, I can accept that. It will still be sad, but the animal is going to die either way, so at least they will help us learn.

I think I see your difficulty. I think that people struggle with a little more than the necessity of terminal surgery, or how humane it is. I think that some people also struggle with the idea of using a living animal as a means to an end. Even people who are all right with purpose-bred animals being slaughtered for food or purpose-bred animals being infected and then euthanized for medical research may balk at the idea of an animal being purpose-bred to give its life as a sort of rough draft surgical patient.

From what I understand and from what I've read here, most terminal surgery patients that are not from shelters or production animal operations are lab animals who no longer have a use. And at the preclinical surgical laboratory I work at, though the surgeries are not euthanized on the table, they generally only live long enough so that the researchers can see how the surgical device healed. We use old production range ewes for our model animals.

For the most part, lab beagles are EXPENSIVE, just like lab mice etc. I think it would be cost-prohibitive to do terminal surgeries on animals that have served no other purpose.

Maybe my graph needs a new axis...animals life has been fully lived v animal lived a short and pointless life? There has got to be a better way to put that. What do y'all think?

 

[that redhead]

Maybe my graph needs a new axis...animals life has been fully lived v animal lived a short and pointless life? There has got to be a better way to put that. What do y'all think?

But who is the judge of whether or not the animal had a full life? Who decides if the life was pointless? As in all issues of ethics, I don't think there will ever be any way to cut and dry the question at hand, nor take into account the high variability of individual experiences.

 

[hygebeorht]

But who is the judge of whether or not the animal had a full life? Who decides if the life was pointless? As in all issues of ethics, I don't think there will ever be any way to cut and dry the question at hand, nor take into account the high variability of individual experiences.

That's very true. Lots of shades of gray in this area, and I can't really put a good name to the struggle with the ethics of using an animal as a practice dummy, when that issue is considered separately from both the necessity and humaneness of the practice surgery.

What do you think, squirrelsrule? Can you elaborate on your struggle with purpose-bred animals, and what that means to you? I'm not sure if you mean purpose-bred lab animals who are older and have been in other experiments first or animals that are purpose-bred and used only for a terminal surgery. Do you feel differently about those two scenarios, or are they similar in your mind?

 

[Lissarae06]

Those are good points. I hadn't really thought about the difference between a fresh grad and a supervised 4th year. I guess the point I was trying to illustrate was that the very fist time I do surgery, I personally will feel more comfortable if I know there is no owner anxiously awaiting the outcome. I don't have issue with 4th years doing discounted surgery, I just would prefer to have a few procedures under my belt before I am "behind the knife" on a pet.

Here, we do our first live surgeries in our 3rd year on shelter dogs. While they aren't technically owned by an individual yet, us spaying/neutering them gives them the chance to get adopted. There is still pressure there even though the patient doesn't have a true owner anxiously waiting for us to finish. We each do three spays and three neuters as primary surgeons, assist on the same amount, and run anesthesia 12 times (6 days, 2 pts/day). By your third, you feel pretty confident.

 

[twelvetigers]

Does the ignored person's post show up when someone who isn't on your ignore list quotes it?

Unfortunately...

 

[nyanko]

Those are good points. I hadn't really thought about the difference between a fresh grad and a supervised 4th year. I guess the point I was trying to illustrate was that the very fist time I do surgery, I personally will feel more comfortable if I know there is no owner anxiously awaiting the outcome. I don't have issue with 4th years doing discounted surgery, I just would prefer to have a few procedures under my belt before I am "behind the knife" on a pet.

We do surgery for the very first time during third year, on shelter animals which we then return to the shelter to be adopted. At least at Davis, we do three surgeries each during this year - 1 dog neuter, 1 cat spay and 1 dog spay.

 

[No Imagination]

At Mississippi State we do 3 surgeries our second year (actually 9, but for six of them you are Anesthesia and/or assistant, rotating) which consist of spays and neuters. These surgeries are assisted by DVMs only if you require or request assistance. They are non-terminal surgeries and many of dogs get adopted by students

Third year we do a 2-3 days of shelter medicine where you do 5 - 8+ spays a day.
Fourth year we have the option of doing 2 weeks of shelter medicine which as above, consists of 6-8 spays a day.

There is also the option of Advanced Surgery which consists of 3 terminal surgeries; 2 dogs and a cat. Here you get to do pretty much every soft tissue surgery you want; splenectomy, gastropexies, RnA's, Gastrotomy/ectomy, kidney/liver biopsies, nephrotomy/ectomy, cystotomy, epidurals, spinal taps, ect... Your limit is basically the IACUC protocol. On the cat we do PU's and all of the above with the exception of all the procedures that are basically the same for dogs and cats (such as the RnA, Cystotomy...).

On the cadaver we work on orthopedic repair, external and internal fixations, ect.
I have already performed +100 survival spays/neuters, 3 gastropexies (2 solo), 2 splenectomies, multiple RnA's, blah,blah, blah.

Like it or not, when I treat my first GDV and need to pexy the stomach or remove the spleen or part of the stomach, I will have NO doubts as to my ability; and I have terminal surgeries to thank for that.

Maybe someone else who has never done a live animal pexy or RnA can develop the skills or confidence to do one of those procedures (on their own dog) the day they graduate; but not me.

On the day I get my state licenses finished I am pexy'ing my own dog.

I will simply let my experience as a 4th year speak towards the value of terminal surgeries as opposed to my holier than thou opinion.

 

[nyanko]

At Mississippi State we do 3 surgeries our second year (actually 9, but for six of them you are Anesthesia and/or assistant, rotating) which consist of spays and neuters. These surgeries are assisted by DVMs only if you require or request assistance. They are non-terminal surgeries and many of dogs get adopted by students

Yeah that's how ours go too, except I'm in a group of 2 so we do the surgeries unassisted - one of us is surgeon and one is anesthetist, and we skip the third lab of each surgery. The DVM surgeons are there for support and to assess our skills, and will offer up advice on methods they've found to work if we're having trouble with something, but they are very hands off and don't even scrub in.

Third year we do a 2-3 days of shelter medicine where you do 5 - 8+ spays a day.
Fourth year we have the option of doing 2 weeks of shelter medicine which as above, consists of 6-8 spays a day.

There is also the option of Advanced Surgery which consists of 3 terminal surgeries; 2 dogs and a cat. Here you get to do pretty much every soft tissue surgery you want; splenectomy, gastropexies, RnA's, Gastrotomy/ectomy, kidney/liver biopsies, nephrotomy/ectomy, cystotomy, epidurals, spinal taps, ect... Your limit is basically the IACUC protocol. On the cat we do PU's and all of the above with the exception of all the procedures that are basically the same for dogs and cats (such as the RnA, Cystotomy...).

I don't feel like a CSF tap is something that needs to be done on a living animal to get the hang of it though. I've done a handful (lumbar and cisternal) on cadaver dogs (euthanized for other reasons) and I feel like I'd be pretty ready to do one on an anesthetized animal now, though I'd still want someone around to confirm where I'm about to stick the needle after I point it out just for a bit of reassurance.

The others, that does seem like valuable experience. That's what heylodeb was talking about that our 4th year community surgery rotation is like. I believe the goal is for every student to do a decent # of spays/neuters with at least 2 or 3 other surgeries like enucleations, gastropexy, cystotomy, etc, throughout the course of the rotation. But they're not terminal, they're client owned pets. And it does depend on what comes in that week. Those are the disadvantages to the non-terminal aspect of our experience, I think.

We do have opportunities to get involved in spay/neuter at feral cat clinics a lot as well. Obviously cat neuters aren't much to write home about, but I've done at least 100 of them at this point and I believe it has definitely helped my confidence level at the very least.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I wonder how it would be to play a WW game where you 'ignore' the mod's posts.

i'm pretty sure that happens all the time in my games.

 

[Angelus9]

I just can't fathom that with the thousands upon thousands of strays in the county.... . I just don't understand why we can't do these surgeries on a shelter animal to make it more adoptable.

How does the surgery make it more adoptable?

Aside from that, there was a huge brouhaha years ago about this very issue and shelter animal use for veterinary students has been about completely shut down. Animal rights people published inflammatory articles about Fluffy being lost and ending up in the shelter and before the family could claim him he was "tortured and killed" in practice surgery. Nasty stuff, but inflamed the public into putting a stop to veterinary colleges being able to "experiment" on shelter animals because "they were once someone's beloved pet" and didn't deserve such an end.

Those of you who do the surgeries today know the truth of how it works, but the truth often doesn't matter, unfortunately.

 

[Foxhunter]

i'm pretty sure that happens all the time in my games when FH plays .

Fixed it for you