Terminal Sx

[NStarz]

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Hello all!

I don't want to make this thread a debate topic (for that, please see here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=676861).

Rather, I'd like to know what role terminal surgeries have in your school's (or future school's, if you know) curriculum. Are they mandated as part of the required curriculum? Could you opt out if you don't feel comfortable with it? Are they part of elective classes? (And again, if they are, could you take the elective class(es) without performing terminal sx?)

I just wanted to see how different schools are doing things, and to see how they mesh with my own personal ethics.

Again, please no debate here. It'll only resort to namecalling. Thanks so much!

 

[LetItSnow]

Hello all!

I don't want to make this thread a debate topic (for that, please see here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=676861).

Rather, I'd like to know what role terminal surgeries have in your school's (or future school's, if you know) curriculum.

For UMN.....

As of a few weeks back when I met with the dean of students she said there were still some terminal surgeries in the curriculum at UMN. (She made it sound like the amount had been diminished, but didn't precisely say that, so I'm interpreting on the 'diminished' part.) She indicated that people were able to choose to not participate, but didn't say whether that meant by not taking the classes (i.e. electives) or whether there were other avenues (alternative methods of learning the material, etc.).

I can't attest to her accuracy since I haven't started there yet, but I can say I'm quite certain that's what she told me. I went in for feedback on my interview, since I felt it might help future JOB interviewing... and we ended up mostly chatting about what makes a student successful (or not). Somewhere along the way terminal surgeries came up.....

 

[Lissarae06]

Oklahoma State doesn't do terminal surgeries anymore. This is a recent thing so I don't know how it has affected the curriculum (good or bad). If I'm not mistaken, the surgeries done now are on animals from the local humane society.

 

[skittles12]

I think that UTK only has terminal surgeries in an elective class--an advanced surgery class. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me!

 

[Chinola]

I was told by a UF student and faculty member that terminal surgeries are only done in an elective surgery class. Everyone learns spay/neuters on shelter animals but for more advanced surgery you need to take the class that does terminal surgeries.

 

[cuitlamiztli]

The traditional junior surgery course at Iowa State does involve terminal surgeries. From my understanding there are also some survival surgeries, but I'm not sure of the numbers for each. Most students elect to take the traditional course.

There is an alternative course available that consists of spaying and neutering shelter animals. A small number of students usually take it each year; I'm not sure on numbers for previous classes, but there are 4 people in my class (including myself) who will be in it next fall.

The spring surgery elective also has a terminal and an alternative component.

 

[Bill59]

You might try this: HSVMA's Comparison Chart of Alternatives Offered at Veterinary Schools in North America

But I'm not sure how up to date it is.

 

[Nechochwen]

LSU does not perform terminal surgeries in the curriculum; I believe this change occurred in the past 1 or two years.

I'm not sure about advanced classes, but I do know that they will still perform terminal surgeries for some special wetlabs.

 

[natalieises]

No terminal surgeries at U of I! We get all of our spay/neuter cases and such from the local shelters.

 

[libster06]

I do know that they will still perform terminal surgeries for some special wetlabs.

Unless they perhaps find a home for the patient!

 

[rustysmom]

No terminal surgeries at Michigan State. We use cadavers for multiple procedures. Our spay/neuters are from local shelters and some of our spay/neuters find homes with us. My spay patient is currently on my lap meowing. 😀

 

[elefante7]

No terminal surgeries at U of I! We get all of our spay/neuter cases and such from the local shelters.

Same at UW-Madison!

 

[breenie]

Same at UW-Madison!

I thought the LA surgery elective/"cut-a-cow" was terminal?

 

[elefante7]

Hrrrrmmm... I was thinking about the small animal so I'm not sure, but I'll ask around and get back to you...

 

[lostbunny]

Hi,

Sorry to hijack the thread but I've been read the link posted by the OP and I'm just a bit confused between terminal sx and survival sx.

Basically a terminal sx is one where the animal is not owned/bred for teaching/un-adoptable shelter animal, etc that is euthanized at the end of the sx regardless of what the procedure was? (Spay, cruciate, GI, etc?)

A survival sx is one that is done with, for example, shelter animals say in a spay/neuter program for animals to be adopted?

Also one other question for vet students/vets who adopted their own 'lab' animals.... how did your group decide who got the pet- did you have to fight over it!?

My friend who's a tech got her cat from their lab group, and he's the cutest sweetest thing ever. I wonder if she had to cage fight, MMA style, for him! 😉

 

[pooter]

Hi,

Sorry to hijack the thread but I've been read the link posted by the OP and I'm just a bit confused between terminal sx and survival sx.

Basically a terminal sx is one where the animal is not owned/bred for teaching/un-adoptable shelter animal, etc that is euthanized at the end of the sx regardless of what the procedure was? (Spay, cruciate, GI, etc?)

A survival sx is one that is done with, for example, shelter animals say in a spay/neuter program for animals to be adopted?

Also one other question for vet students/vets who adopted their own 'lab' animals.... how did your group decide who got the pet- did you have to fight over it!?

My friend who's a tech got her cat from their lab group, and he's the cutest sweetest thing ever. I wonder if she had to cage fight, MMA style, for him! 😉

That's my understanding, at least.

As for who gets the pets, AFAIK, at Penn at least competition isn't so much the issue. Because everybody does a survival spay in their third year but not everybody can adopt another pup at the moment, I've heard it's more of a struggle to find homes for them all. I guess it would be different if each group only got one animal, though. And I don't know, maybe on an individual level there are cage fights for the cutest one. Any current students want to chime in?

 

[Bill59]

Terminal surgery simply means the animal is not recovered from the surgery -- it is euthanized while still under anesthesia.

Survival surgery means the animal recovers from anesthesia.

The source of the animals, where they end up, or the type of surgery are different matters.

 

[annemal22]

I have a friend who is a board certified SA surgeon and they went to a conference recently where they discussed not teaching vet students surgeries anymore!! Obviously the spay/neuter deal would still happen, but other surgeries they are talking about if it would be better to just teach to residents for SA surgery. Don't know if it will ever happen, but there is talk. Thought it was interesting.

Regarding OP, Mississippi State does do terminal surgeries, but it is an elective course, you don't have to take it if you don't want to.

 

[pooter]

Terminal surgery simply means the animal is not recovered from the surgery -- it is euthanized while still under anesthesia.

Survival surgery means the animal recovers from anesthesia.

The source of the animals, where they end up, or the type of surgery are different matters.

Is this term used even if it's in a clinical setting? For instance, during one of the first splenectomies I saw, the vet found liver mets, so he sewed the animal up and let the owners say goodbye while the dog was still under. Would that be considered a terminal sx even though it wasn't planned as such?

 

[twelvetigers]

I think it's mostly used in reference to vet school curriculum.

 

[lostbunny]

Terminal surgery simply means the animal is not recovered from the surgery -- it is euthanized while still under anesthesia.

Survival surgery means the animal recovers from anesthesia.

The source of the animals, where they end up, or the type of surgery are different matters.

Okay, and so basically the "advantage" of terminal surgeries is that you'd be able to do things that you might only otherwise see in practice? Are survival surgeries mostly spay/neuter/routine sx?

 

[twelvetigers]

Well, the problem is... you don't want to do an especially invasive surgery on an animal (something more than a S/N) and then recover it when it didn't need the sx at all - that's cruel. However, you won't have the opportunity to do a lot of these surgeries before you graduate. So, terminal surgeries served that purpose - you get to perform a few different sx that you wouldn't have otherwise, but the animal is not recovered. Without these surgeries, you might not get any practice - it will depend on clinical years and electives instead.

 

[Niri]

Okay, and so basically the "advantage" of terminal surgeries is that you'd be able to do things that you might only otherwise see in practice? Are survival surgeries mostly spay/neuter/routine sx?

One of the vets I know told me her take on the advantages of terminal sx:

1. The first time a person is suturing and, otherwise dealing with, the inside of a living breathing animal is completely different from any dissection, and there is a high likelihood of any internal work being sloppier and more uncomfortable for the animal.

2. This vet explained that in their terminal sx procedure, the student who was acting as surgeon had to turn around while the instructor severed a major blood vessel in the abdomen. This procedure was supposed to teach the students to respond to the moment of "feces hitting the turbine" in a calm manner. Also this level of internal bleeding would be difficult to recoup from.

I have a friend who is a board certified SA surgeon and they went to a conference recently where they discussed not teaching vet students surgeries anymore!! Obviously the spay/neuter deal would still happen, but other surgeries they are talking about if it would be better to just teach to residents for SA surgery. Don't know if it will ever happen, but there is talk. Thought it was interesting.

I would be highly surprised if this really went through due to the current concerns about practicing in rural areas. It would certainly make vet students less marketable, and give rural, especially mixed-animal, practitioners more worries than they need.

 

[lostbunny]

Okay thanks twelvetigers and Niri. I get it! 🙂

 

[twelvetigers]

2. This vet explained that in their terminal sx procedure, the student who was acting as surgeon had to turn around while the instructor severed a major blood vessel in the abdomen. This procedure was supposed to teach the students to respond to the moment of "feces hitting the turbine" in a calm manner. Also this level of internal bleeding would be difficult to recoup from.

They used to do things differently, and they gradually have changed over the years. Some of the stuff they did back in the 70s would make most pre-vets cringe... and rightfully so, I guess. Now, it seems like terminal sx are well on the way of being phased out of the main curriculum at all vet schools.

I see the benefits of having the practice, but I think the change is inevitable at this point. So, attention should be focused on how to train a vet for surgeries without having terminal as an option.

 

[Niri]

Now, it seems like terminal sx are well on the way of being phased out of the main curriculum at all vet schools.

I see the benefits of having the practice, but I think the change is inevitable at this point. So, attention should be focused on how to train a vet for surgeries without having terminal as an option.

This particular vet was an '04 grad, but I do see your point.

 

[sumstorm]

We do not have terminal surgeries in our core curriculum, but there are terminal surgeries in some of the electives/selectives. I have mixed feelings. I don't know that it was any better for the huge pitt mix that I neutered to be recovered back at a high kill shelter then gassed to death. Also, all our anatomy animals were shelter or surrenders or livestock euth's.

I'm glad that I don't HAVE to do terminal sx, but I would hate for the option to be banned. Dealing with birds of prey in one of our labs that were going to be euthed anyways (non-releasable) I was happy that we could learn before euth.

 

[Breezyte]

The vet I work for said something similar about terminal surgeries. That they would probably be phased out but that there are somethings you just can't/shouldn't do on an animal that will be woken up. She said some of the best learning she did came from when her prof would come over, undo a clamp and say "oops it slipped". Totally risky and unreasonable on a live animal but also something that happens.
As far as terminal surgeries go,I know one of the schools I was looking at (I wanna say K state) breeds a whole line of beagles for surgeries but they are survival surgeries. Each dog gets 2 surgeries, a spay/neuter and one unnecessary one and then are adopted out.

I think it would be insane not to teach surgery at all!

 

[elefante7]

I thought the LA surgery elective/"cut-a-cow" was terminal?

So, I finally asked around about this and here is what I came up with. The cows that are part of the LA surgery elective are ones that are already headed out to be slaughtered, but make a detour to be part of the elective course. Also, they are recovered at the end of surgery and leave the building alive. So, if you use the definition of terminal surgery that means that the animal never wakes up from anesthesia, than these are not terminal surgeries. However, these cows are not pet cows so they don't live a whole lot longer anyway.

 

[breenie]

So, I finally asked around about this and here is what I came up with. The cows that are part of the LA surgery elective are ones that are already headed out to be slaughtered, but make a detour to be part of the elective course. Also, they are recovered at the end of surgery and leave the building alive. So, if you use the definition of terminal surgery that means that the animal never wakes up from anesthesia, than these are not terminal surgeries. However, these cows are not pet cows so they don't live a whole lot longer anyway.

Gotcha! Thanks for the follow up. 🙂