Terrible mistake, will get an institutional action after acceptance

[SLC]

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You didn't "make a mistake", you cheated. You should be expelled. I'm a believer in the single sanction. I suspect the medical school will rescind your offer.
As they say in my old southern home, "you done ****ed up real bad ma'an."
Good luck. BTW, Not telling the school and having them find out later would be even worse and would lead to expulsion and flushing your dream forever, so proceed with extreme caution there. They will review your final transcript as part of the routine vetting process.
One more learning point for the readers, you'd still get in with a C, so don't become so lazy you earn a D.
PS your friend is really stupid because even if you do get this kind of info, you don't share it, and even if you're stupid enough to drag others down to your level, you do it on the way down low, with zero evidence.
If someone did this to "help" me and emailed me without my consent, the only way out would be to dime them out to the honor committee and the professor before you took the test.
I am curious about how they got caught. Probably 2/2 some "friend" who felt guilty about being on the email string, or some "friend of a friend" who mouthed off to someone else who had an old score to settle. Vengeance is a dish best served cold, and it's very cold in space.

Had this happen to me once, in med-school. Didn't see many options other than to go to the administration. I didn't rat the person out, who sent it to me (and he wasn't the one who stole the answers, just passed them around to a bunch of people). I just brought it to their attention that the answers had gotten out, were emailed around to people in the class, and that I was one who was told to "check my email" about 5 mins before the quiz started. I told them I preferred not to say who was involved. They respected that decision.

They didn't push it any farther than that, and nobody got in trouble (to my knowledge) but the school did change their testing setup after that.

It just pissed me off that someone would do that. I could have just as easily been pulled into suspicion for cheating and who knows what would have happened. I could have been dismissed for something I didn't ask to be involved in. I have a family for cryin' out loud, they would have been paying the price for that idiot's stupid actions.

 

[LizzyM]

Huh..... That's interesting - I'm not sure my school was following the rules then. The dean of student conduct would often scoff about how students should just accept IAs BC nobody could find out anyways.

I'm gonna go do some more research on this now 😛

Go to the AMCAS Instruction Manual 2016, pages 26 and 27. That's all you need to know. How you behave when "no one will know" is a reflection of your character.

 

[rajp98]

YOUR BEST BET IS TO WRITE A LETTER OF PLEA TO THE SCHOOL. DO NOT GIVE UP. IF YOU UNDERSTAND AND WHOLLY REGRET YOUR MISTAKE YOU CAN GET COMPENSATION.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

My suggestion:

Call up the dean of admission now and tell them that you are being charged and are guilty of an IA. Indicate that you will withdraw your acceptance but you wish to meet with them. Then go meet with them and ask them if there is any chance of them reconsidering you in a few years if you spend this time in public service (however defined). If you are extremely lucky, the Dean might take pity on you and give you such a plan over X number of years and then offer to reconsider you or to meet with you in the intervening time to guide you. Probably not, but deans are remarkably nice people sometimes and if you are much more straight forward than you have been on SDN and voluntarily withdraw, there MIGHT be chance.

I personally see no other real options with any likelihood of success and this is a long shot too.

 

[Chasing Never Land]

Go to the AMCAS Instruction Manual 2016, pages 26 and 27. That's all you need to know. How you behave when "no one will know" is a reflection of your character.

Well, I've never been in OPS position - after a kid plagiarized a story I wrote in 4th grade, I hate cheating vehemently 😛 I also never save files on public computers anymore haha. And I definitely agree with you.

I still sympathize for OP, though. Everyone has moments when they wish they could hit rewind, hindsight being 20/20 and all.

 

[Ismet]

This is interesting. So in that regard, is it also cheating if only a small group of students acquired older exams from another friend who previously took the course from the same professor?

Yes. If the professor does not provide the old exams and you somehow procure old exams, that is also cheating. It gives you an unfair leg up compared to the people who didn't see the exams; it goes beyond just studying more/doing more practice problems.

You're best bet is to not tell schools and hope they do not inquire. It is possible they won't inquire.

That's actually not his best bet at all.

The school will find out, either before matriculation or after. There have been people who have gone through multiple years of med school (read: $200,000 in debt) and then were dismissed because they hid something from admissions. There are a couple examples of this if you search the Allo forum.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I almost "liked" this post out of agreeance. But "liking" too often gives the impression that I relish in your misfortune. I don't. I mean to say that he's right.

You're best bet is to not tell schools and hope they do not inquire. It is possible they won't inquire. It is possible you won't have a record (some schools destroy after graduation). And for goodness sake, if you get a F and no IA, come up with a good excuse! A REALLY good one -- because it is going to prompt your school to check in all likelihood.

Good lord it's scary how bad this advice is; you literally couldnt come up with a worse piece of advice for this situation if you tried.

OP knows what they need to do. Oldbearprofessor actually gave a very good idea most never would have thought of to consider.

 

[philosonista]

Good lord it's scary how bad this advice is; you literally couldnt come up with a worse piece of advice for this situation if you tried.

OP knows what they need to do. Oldbearprofessor actually gave a very good idea most never would have thought of to consider.

I don't see how. If he tells the school, he's done. Completely done. Not only that, the entire AMCAS system is likely to be informed of it -- many schools actually have that rule.

Insofar as med schools have better things to do than carefully scrutinize applicants -- what Goro warns about his "wily old admissions dean" does not strike me as common from what I have read -- it is entirely possible they won't go through the process of requesting a dean's letter. From what I've read, that process is done before extending an offer, if at all. The only means by which they could find out if OP does not offer the information and does not have a F to give a hint is the dean's letter.

Oldbearprofessor's idea would never work. I've read so so so many forums about IA's. The ruthlessness with which they throw out applicants just would not stand to keep OP on. I find that plan to be of far higher risk than mine.

Honestly, the best bet OP has is to fight like Hell at the trial. Pull out all the stops. Get character references from your best advocates. Bring your resume of volunteering. Carefully craft your answers, explanation, anticipate questions.

 

[philosonista]

Yes. If the professor does not provide the old exams and you somehow procure old exams, that is also cheating. It gives you an unfair leg up compared to the people who didn't see the exams; it goes beyond just studying more/doing more practice problems.



That's actually not his best bet at all.

The school will find out, either before matriculation or after. There have been people who have gone through multiple years of med school (read: $200,000 in debt) and then were dismissed because they hid something from admissions. There are a couple examples of this if you search the Allo forum.

"couple" examples <<<<< The likely many successful applicants who never revealed their IA's.

I'd place my bet on the probability being higher for the never revealed students. You can plenty of that on the allo forums too.

 

[texan2414]

ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS MAKE A C !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[hailbate]

Yes. If the professor does not provide the old exams and you somehow procure old exams, that is also cheating. It gives you an unfair leg up compared to the people who didn't see the exams; it goes beyond just studying more/doing more practice problems.

Well I guess half the kids at my school cheat and they are all not qualified for medical school.

 

[bwc]

Honestly, most people have probably cheated in some way during their undergraduate years. To draw some examples: comparing homework answers with other classmates when an assignment is "individual work", looking up homework solutions on the internet (e.g., Chegg). Most professors I've had don't even bother dealing with these scenarios, saying something like "the exams will enforce these no cheating policies better than I can". Therefore, such actions did not result in institutional action. These examples are relatively minor compared to OP's situation, but this is to point out that cheating occurs more than you probably assume. Those who action get institutional action as a result is only a subset of those who have cheated.

OP should definitely face consequences...I'm sure he will. However, I don't think it should go as far as excluding him from a medical career for life. It happens to everybody: you get stressed and then end up making a poor choice (although "how poor" can range from "meh" to extremely unethical). OP's actions were on the unethical side, but it could have been a lot worse. Requiring him to take some time off to reflect on his mistake is something I would consider reasonable.

 

[philosonista]

Well, I've never been in OPS position - after a kid plagiarized a story I wrote in 4th grade, I hate cheating vehemently 😛 I also never save files on public computers anymore haha. And I definitely agree with you.

I still sympathize for OP, though. Everyone has moments when they wish they could hit rewind, hindsight being 20/20 and all.

Seriously. The feeling of walking on eggshells OP must feel now -- I would feel that is enough to keep him on the straight and narrow in the future, if not more so than those who never had an IA. The brain does not forget trauma. This is likely traumatic for OP.

We too often forget how much of a learning experience this is. OP's neurons are making terrifying connections now that he will not forget.

 

[Ismet]

"couple" examples <<<<< The likely many successful applicants who never revealed their IA's.

I'd place my bet on the probability being higher for the never revealed students.

Doesn't matter. Why take someone with a documented episode of cheating when there are so many applicants who don't? Yes, people cheat and get away with it. You can't go into admissions under the assumption that everyone has cheated at some point to this extreme extent.

 

[deleted480308]

As a med school administrator, the comeback to that "excuse" might be a recommendation to take a year off and come back with a letter from a mental health professional stating that whatever recent condition caused this academic disaster has resolved. No one would want you to start medical school with a health condition that is going to result in academic problems.

or marriage problems or suicide....rates of divorce and mental health problems occurring in training are out of control, suicide attempts sky rocket above the general population. I've already watched people lose their family and have personally tried to steer those with mental health issues away from medicine. This mess is too hard

 

[philosonista]

Doesn't matter. Why take someone with a documented episode of cheating when there are so many applicants who don't? Yes, people cheat and get away with it. You can't go into admissions under the assumption that everyone has cheated at some point.

What do you think I am saying? I don't understand what you're saying.

I am saying the probability of someone getting through med school without having their IA detected is probably higher than the probability of being "found out" during med school. Deans have better things to do than check, even if there are counter examples that are quite memorable. And IA records also sometimes expire in a few years, which the IA of OP might depending on his school. Thus they become unreportable at some point during his career/schooling/what have you, plummeting the chance of being found out to zero.

 

[Ismet]

Well I guess half the kids at my school cheat and they are all not qualified for medical school.

I had several professors in undergrad who explicitly said there would be repercussions for getting access to old exams. They reuse questions and don't allow the exams outside of class or office hours, but people always managed to sneak them.

 

[Ismet]

What do you think I am saying? I don't understand what you're saying.

I am saying the probability of someone getting through med school without having their IA detected is probably higher than the probability of being "found out" during med school. Deans have better things to do than check, even if there are counter examples that are quite memorable. And IA records also sometimes expire in a few years, which the IA of OP might depending on his school. Thus they become unreportable at some point during his career/schooling/what have you.

When I quoted you i thought you said "couple exams" instead of examples.

You are suggesting to OP that on top of cheating, he also lie. Good one. AAMC requires applicants to disclose any IAs obtained after admission.

Personally I'd rather not go through 4 years of med school constantly worried that I'd be found out, kicked out, and left with a massive debt and high interest with no career to show for it.

Instead of covering up dishonesty with more dishonesty, the correct advice is to be honest and brace for the inevitable, and hope that after a few years and some demonstrated maturity he can try again.

 

[texan2414]

I had several professors in undergrad who explicitly said there would be repercussions for getting access to old exams. They reuse questions and don't allow the exams outside of class or office hours, but people always managed to sneak them.

I'm just really glad that for all these supposed cheaters who try to gain unfair advantage, the MCAT will be there to stop them dead in the tracks! I remember my Gen Phys I class where we were in a big lecture hall for exams and literally everyone in the backrow cheated and NOTHING HAPPENED. At the end of the semester though, the entire class was curved down lol. An A was 95+

 

[philosonista]

When I quoted you i thought you said "couple exams" instead of examples.

You are suggesting to OP that on top of cheating, he also lie. Good one. AAMC requires applicants to disclose any IAs obtained after admission.

Personally I'd rather not go through 4 years of med school constantly worried that I'd be found out, kicked out, and left with a massive debt and high interest with no career to show for it.

Instead of covering up dishonesty with more dishonesty, the correct advice is to be honest and brace for the inevitable, and hope that after a few years and some demonstrated maturity he can try again.

I am suggesting that the system does not account for the value of learning from mistakes, and that OP is not irreparably morally grotesque because of this. I am not someone who is a fan of rules-based ethics, so I won't say lying is wrong in all cases as you would. Badly designed system such as the kangaroo court of the university and the medical admission process should not remain unquestioned.

OP might feel as you do, but he might not, and I find it understandable that he might not.

I doubt a "few years" of being a good citizen would do enough. It would take a decade or more based on what ADCOMs on here have said.

 

[deleted245139]

What do you think I am saying? I don't understand what you're saying.

I am saying the probability of someone getting through med school without having their IA detected is probably higher than the probability of being "found out" during med school. Deans have better things to do than check, even if there are counter examples that are quite memorable. And IA records also sometimes expire in a few years, which the IA of OP might depending on his school. Thus they become unreportable at some point during his career/schooling/what have you, plummeting the chance of being found out to zero.

Man.... That's a pricy gamble. On the order of 100-300k. I think in a situation like this, one's efforts would be better spent accepting this as a good life lesson and moving on to something else.

 

[philosonista]

Man.... That's a pricy gamble. On the order of 100-300k. I think in a situation like this, one's efforts would be better spent accepting this as a good life lesson and moving on to something else.

For many, yes. For some, perhaps not.

If we were all in it for the money, then there are far easier ways to get it.

 

[texan2414]

I am suggesting that the system does not account for the value of learning from mistakes, and that OP is not irreparably morally grotesque because of this. I am not someone who is a fan of rules-based ethics, so I won't say lying is wrong in all cases as you would. Badly designed system such as the kangaroo court of the university and the medical admission process should not remain unquestioned.

OP might feel as you do, but he might not, and I find it understandable that he might not.

I doubt a "few years" of being a good citizen would do enough. It would take a decade or more based on what ADCOMs on here have said.

You're conflating two very different issues. We are here to discuss OP's unprofessional/unethical conduct, not admissions processes/policies.
And how can you say that he is not immoral/unethical. When someone is accepted to a medical school, the last thing they need to do is breathe and put answers on their exam to get away with a C in the class. He resorted to cheating. And for what????? So he could pad up his GPA and ego in the process? Would you want someone as a colleague who will always try to keep score, even when the score wouldn't matter??? As he has shown to have little to no morals, I would bet he would have no remorse/guilt in sharing patient confidential data for whatever purposes.

He made a choice to cheat and now he has to own up to the consequences of it. The admissions process is competitive enough as it is. Why should someone who has NO evidence of unethical/unprofessional behavior be denied that seat he is holding on to currently?

 

[Ismet]

I am suggesting that the system does not account for the value of learning from mistakes, and that OP is not irreparably morally grotesque because of this. I am not someone who is a fan of rules-based ethics, so I won't say lying is wrong in all cases as you would. Badly designed system such as the kangaroo court of the university and the medical admission process should not remain unquestioned.

OP might feel as you do, but he might not, and I find it understandable that he might not.

I doubt a "few years" of being a good citizen would do enough. It would take a decade or more based on what ADCOMs on here have said.

Perhaps the system could use some work, but being annoyed at how the machine works isn't going to help OP in his situation right now. And suggesting that he lie about it has the potential to make things monumentally worse, including barring him from medicine entirely.

 

[distressstudent]

Does OP still have a shot at a carribean school?

 

[deleted480308]

I am suggesting that the system does not account for the value of learning from mistakes, and that OP is not irreparably morally grotesque because of this. I am not someone who is a fan of rules-based ethics, so I won't say lying is wrong in all cases as you would. Badly designed system such as the kangaroo court of the university and the medical admission process should not remain unquestioned.

OP might feel as you do, but he might not, and I find it understandable that he might not.

I doubt a "few years" of being a good citizen would do enough. It would take a decade or more based on what ADCOMs on here have said.

1) it's not that a cheater can't be reformed, it's that in the competitive process of seat allocation no school needs bother themselves with someone proven to need reforming. A 27 on the old mcat indicated someone that could pass med school, but the MD schools simply didn't need to bother with 27s because they had better options

2) the concept of kangaroo courts discrediting the process is irrelevant with OP openly admitting they are a cheater

 

[deleted245139]

For many, yes. For some, perhaps not.

If we were all in it for the money, then there are far easier ways to get it.

I'm not talking about salary, I'm talking about acquired debt. I didn't even comment on the interest.... Digging out of a half million dollar hole without a reasonable means to pay it off is a terrifying prospect

 

[raiderette]

I had several professors in undergrad who explicitly said there would be repercussions for getting access to old exams. They reuse questions and don't allow the exams outside of class or office hours, but people always managed to sneak them.

I am so glad none of my professors are so lazy. They have no problem with old tests, and most are available in our tutoring center.

 

[philosonista]

Perhaps the system could use some work, but being annoyed at how the machine works isn't going to help OP in his situation right now. And suggesting that he lie about it has the potential to make things monumentally worse, including barring him from medicine entirely.

Well, our estimated probabilities of which scenario would play out are different, and I can't do anything except vaguely refer you to everything I have read from which I've gotten my estimate.

We agree to disagree.

 

[philosonista]

1) it's not that a cheater can't be reformed, it's that in the competitive process of seat allocation no school needs bother themselves with someone proven to need reforming. A 27 on the old mcat indicated someone that could pass med school, but the MD schools simply didn't need to bother with 27s because they had better options

2) the concept of kangaroo courts discrediting the process is irrelevant with OP openly admitting they are a cheater

1) actually is the problem: The ruthlessness with which Goro and other ADCOMs demonize those on here with IA's is incredible --- they pose it not as a learning experience if is anything more than weed or alcohol violation, but as a mark of a permanent moral defect. I have no respect for that no-growth, reductive view of how morals work. It is wrong and very lazy thinking.

2) The kangaroo court plays into the medical school system. That medical schools trust the kangaroo courts is patently disturbing to me, especially with how Title IX is allowing just about anyone to sabotage anyone else. Since identity politics are so popular, let me put it on the record that I am actually a girl who does not support Title IX.

 

[philosonista]

I'm not talking about salary, I'm talking about acquired debt. I didn't even comment on the interest.... Digging out of a half million dollar hole without a reasonable means to pay it off is a terrifying prospect

That's what I was talking about too. So many kids plunge deep into debt for a fancy university based on some belief that it will help them, while still knowing they could likely end up flipping burgers, ****ing up in college, what have you. I'm not saying it's rational, I'm saying there are people like that.

 

[Nietzschelover]

You're conflating two very different issues. We are here to discuss OP's unprofessional/unethical conduct, not admissions processes/policies.
And how can you say that he is not immoral/unethical. When someone is accepted to a medical school, the last thing they need to do is breathe and put answers on their exam to get away with a C in the class. He resorted to cheating. And for what????? So he could pad up his GPA and ego in the process? Would you want someone as a colleague who will always try to keep score, even when the score wouldn't matter??? As he has shown to have little to no morals, I would bet he would have no remorse/guilt in sharing patient confidential data for whatever purposes.

He made a choice to cheat and now he has to own up to the consequences of it. The admissions process is competitive enough as it is. Why should someone who has NO evidence of unethical/unprofessional behavior be denied that seat he is holding on to currently?

Agree, but keep in mind we aren't talking about an ethical decision that one deliberates about for weeks and then makes a decision. These are errors that are made in the heat of the moment, perhaps within seconds, perhaps with several days of little sleep, distorted thinking because of thinking maybe I will lose my acceptance if I fail this class, feeling the walls closing in and being in a state of panic. Now, in response, I'm sure someone is going to say we don't want a person being a physician since physicians will have to function and make the right decisions under extreme pressure, and I get that, but still....mistakes happen. Can we truly judge someone's moral character based on one instance of something? Maybe the OP has made a 100 other excellent moral decisions. Physicians are people too....people who cheat on spouses, push at the limits on taxes, drink too much, use illicit substances, go ahead and perform surgeries when they know they are in a suboptimal mental state, etc, etc, etc. Physicians (and pre-meds) aren't immune to all of the calamities that can happen to the majority of people. Does coming on SDN with the problem and seeking advice (instead of just trying to sweep it under the rug) tell us anything? Is the answer to just Scarlet Letter the kid?

 

[deleted480308]

I have no respect for that ..... It is wrong and very lazy.....

that's how they view cheaters. But I'd like to point out again that they speak as adcoms....adcoms don't choose who is a good person, they choose who is a good candidate to be a doctor,,,,.and adcoms get to be picky. They simply don't have to deal with obvious character flaws because there are so many options out there without them

 

[philosonista]

that's how they view cheaters. But I'd like to point out again that they speak as adcoms....adcoms don't choose who is a good person, they choose who is a good candidate to be a doctor,,,,.and adcoms get to be picky. They simply don't have to deal with obvious character flaws because there are so many options out there without them

It's not a character flaw if someone learns from it.

And yes, they have to be ruthlessly picky because of the sheer numbers -- that is the only pass I give them for this. But that they justify the admissions to themselves by demonizing those with IA's as people with permanent defects is empirically, morally, overall wrong. They should be able to sleep at night knowing they needed to do it because of the need to eliminate, not because they needed to delude themselves to believe they had permanent defects. It would be another thing if OP murdered somebody.

But I still say that if I were an ADCOM, I would scare the **** out of OP, know that he's been traumatized, and let him stay. I would rest at night believing it scared him enough to stay on the straight and narrow -- perhaps more than others without the IA -- into the future. I believe in neuroplasticity to its fullest extent, and nearly having your life's work and career taken away is quite traumatic.

Good night, all, my sleep cycle calls.

 

[texan2414]

Agree, but keep in mind we aren't talking about an ethical decision that one deliberates about for weeks and then makes a decision. These are errors that are made in the heat of the moment, perhaps within seconds, perhaps with several days of little sleep, distorted thinking because of thinking maybe I will lose my acceptance if I fail this class, feeling the walls closing in and being in a state of panic. Now, in response, I'm sure someone is going to say we don't want a person being a physician since physicians will have to function and make the right decisions under extreme pressure, and I get that, but still....mistakes happen. Can we truly judge someone's moral character based on one instance of something? Maybe the OP has made a 100 other excellent moral decisions. Physicians are people too....people who cheat on spouses, push at the limits on taxes, drink too much, use illicit substances, go ahead and perform surgeries when they know they are in a suboptimal mental state, etc, etc, etc. Physicians (and pre-meds) aren't immune to all of the calamities that can happen to the majority of people. Does coming on SDN with the problem and seeking advice (instead of just trying to sweep it under the rug) tell us anything? Is the answer to just Scarlet Letter the kid?

Most of what you listed are non-professional reasons to be making unethical/immoral decisions. And just like good doctors, there are bad doctors (to your point of a surgeon performing in suboptimal mental state). Also, the bigger point is that OP has already shown unprofessional behavior. Who knows what might happen down the road should he/she actually become a physician. There are bad enough doctors as it is, potentially adding another one sounds illogical.

I'm not sure about everyone but if I am accepted to a medical school, on my white coat ceremony, I will truly take the Hippocratic Oath with the hope that I never ever compromise my morals. Medicine is a profession, something set aside from vocation, job, etc.!!!!!!! We are held to the highest ethical standards within the society and if prospective physicians don't have the character attributes that conform to that, they should not enter this profession.

 

[IlDestriero]

that's how they view cheaters. But I'd like to point out again that they speak as adcoms....adcoms don't choose who is a good person, they choose who is a good candidate to be a doctor,,,,.and adcoms get to be picky. They simply don't have to deal with obvious character flaws because there are so many options out there without them

Exactly. When there are better applicants, why accept damaged goods.
Not everyone gets to follow their dreams. That's life.

 

[MerYangBey]

I really hate it when people tell you how bad you screwed up after you've done something stupid. Chances are the person already knows they screwed up. If anything the person who screwed up needs support.

If OP was my friend I would be concerned about his wellbeing. If someone took away my acceptance for any reason I would be completely shattered. OP is a person going through a difficult time. How about a little compassion and empathy?

 

[Pantaloooons]

Apologies if this is a bit off topic, but are there any studies available that demonstrate correlation between IA and success as a future physician?

The assumption (not just in the case presented here in this thread, i.e., cheating, but in other IA cases) is that making mistakes (that lead to IAs) will lead to lower ethical and professional standards in the field of medicine. On the surface, I would imagine many would believe this to be true, but it seems what @philosonista is suggesting is that it is entirely possible that people learn from their mistakes, understand why the rules are the way they are, and then hold themselves to a higher standard. On the contrary, someone without this experience earlier in life may not have such a personal understanding of the gravity of particular decisions. This is just speculation, however.

Nonetheless, a study with some rigor that can demonstrate a correlation between IA and success as a future physician would be a great starting point for such a debate IMO. (Although I would imagine having been caught cheating is probably a much more difficult position to recover from, however.)

 

[Goro]

Your ignorance of this process is so profound that it's outright dangerous to the career prospect of other SDNers.

It's the job of Admission deans to vet matriculants to make sure stuff like doesn't happen in the months prior to orientation.

Unless you think that the AMCAS people also"can't be bothered" that they put specific instructions for incidents like this (posted above by my learned colleagues) just for the hell of it?

I am saying the probability of someone getting through med school without having their IA detected is probably higher than the probability of being "found out" during med school. Deans have better things to do than check, even if there are counter examples that are quite memorable. And IA records also sometimes expire in a few years, which the IA of OP might depending on his school. Thus they become unreportable at some point during his career/schooling/what have you, plummeting the chance of being found out to zero.

 

[Goro]

I don't have the citations but there are published studies showing that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.

Apologies if this is a bit off topic, but are there any studies available that demonstrate correlation between IA and success as a future physician?

The assumption (not just in the case presented here in this thread, i.e., cheating, but in other IA cases) is that making mistakes (that lead to IAs) will lead to lower ethical and professional standards in the field of medicine. On the surface, I would imagine many would believe this to be true, but it seems what @philosonista is suggesting is that it is entirely possible that people learn from their mistakes, understand why the rules are the way they are, and then hold themselves to a higher standard. On the contrary, someone without this experience earlier in life may not have such a personal understanding of the gravity of particular decisions. This is just speculation, however.

Nonetheless, a study with some rigor that can demonstrate a correlation between IA and success as a future physician would be a great starting point for such a debate IMO. (Although I would imagine having been caught cheating is probably a much more difficult position to recover from, however.)

As long as OP can write a check and is still breathing, there will be a seat for him at a Carib diploma mill.

Does OP still have a shot at a carribean school?

 

[texan2414]

I really hate it when people tell you how bad you screwed up after you've done something stupid. Chances are the person already knows they screwed up. If anything the person who screwed up needs support.

If OP was my friend I would be concerned about his wellbeing. If someone took away my acceptance for any reason I would be completely shattered. OP is a person going through a difficult time. How about a little compassion and empathy?

Medicine is a tough business afterall.

If his feelings and ego are bruised after this incident, I can only imagine what might happen if he/she were to lose a patient under their direct watch.

 

[MerYangBey]

Medicine is a tough business afterall.

If his feelings and ego are bruised after this incident, I can only imagine what might happen if he/she were to lose a patient under their direct watch.

An incident is like a traffic ticket.
This isn't an incident it's a life altering event.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Medicine is a tough business afterall.

If his feelings and ego are bruised after this incident, I can only imagine what might happen if he/she were to lose a patient under their direct watch.

We see this argument frequently here.....the "if it happened once, then just imagine XYZ." If dishonesty is an actual trait of a person, then yes, the behavior will be repeated as a physician. As for individual instances, just know that there will be fellow students in your med school class who cheated at least once and maybe many times who never got caught and who never breathed a word to anyone about it. Any med students out there who drove after having a few too many, more than once, who never got pulled over? What about any colleagues who maybe got maybe just a smidge too much help with their Personal Statements? Or had a parent get them that summer research slot that impressed the adcoms and led to a publication?

 

[philosonista]

Goro wins. I retract my argument:

Given the high-powered, competitive environment of medical school, some students will do anything “to get ahead,”9 or simply to survive. As a result, cheating abounds. Studies indicate that between 27% and 58% of students cheat at least once in medical school,10 that those who cheat are likely to be dishonest when providing patient care during their clerk ships,7 and that the number of students who cheat increases from the freshman to the senior year.9
​

Though I would make the point that although it might be the job of admissions deans to vet accepted students, that I've read many cases on here where people make it through with hidden IA's shows not every admissions deans does as he/she should. I would still suspect OP's probabilities favor not informing the school. OP only has to get past one dean who might not be thorough. But I'm going off of a mere scattershot of anecdotes on these forums.

The 27% - 58% is amazing. O_O

And I still hold that we need not and should not wholly demonize people with IA's. It's really a shallow and lazy kind of justification for our moral high horse.

OP, I hope life gets better soon.

 

[ImmunoLove]

Lousy situation, but this is why it's critical to examine our actions to ensure we minimize actions we'd readily take back. Pretty much, you have to wait to see whether you are subject to IA. If so, you must report it to the med schools and pray. In the interim, do what you can to plead your case and not get the IA. And for Petes sake, really think about your actions. This mess could have been avoided if you had, for example, explicitly stated you wanted nothing to do with the cheating on the email string (and legitimately don't cheat-- you want to be a doctor, act like it!).

 

[Lost in Translation]

Your ignorance of this process is so profound that it's outright dangerous to the career prospect of other SDNers.

It's the job of Admission deans to vet matriculants to make sure stuff like doesn't happen in the months prior to orientation.

Unless you think that the AMCAS people also"can't be bothered" that they put specific instructions for incidents like this (posted above by my learned colleagues) just for the hell of it?

Watch what you say, @Goro. You're speaking with a successful NIH IRTA applicant.

 

[Ismet]

I am so glad none of my professors are so lazy. They have no problem with old tests, and most are available in our tutoring center.

These were upper level courses in fairly specific subjects in my major. Exams were super long and there were multiple forms to reduce cheating. There's really only a finite number of ways to test the same specific content.

They always provided practice questions. No one really complained or seemed to have an issue with it.

For intro level courses, we pretty much always got old exams.

 

[heybubbaa]

.

 

[philosonista]

Watch what you say, @Goro. You're speaking with a successful NIH IRTA applicant.

Oh no! I did not feel like putting in the effort to find a synonym for "successful" you don't find pretentious! I will forever despair over setting off your pretension alarms!

 

[Lawpy]

Yes. If the professor does not provide the old exams and you somehow procure old exams, that is also cheating. It gives you an unfair leg up compared to the people who didn't see the exams; it goes beyond just studying more/doing more practice problems.

And how would a professor, Dean, honor committee etc. would counter this type of cheating? This is assuming that there are no written verification/proof/convos involved in this.