Terrible mistake, will get an institutional action after acceptance

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Nietzschelover said:
We see this argument frequently here.....the "if it happened once, then just imagine XYZ." If dishonesty is an actual trait of a person, then yes, the behavior will be repeated as a physician. As for individual instances, just know that there will be fellow students in your med school class who cheated at least once and maybe many times who never got caught and who never breathed a word to anyone about it. Any med students out there who drove after having a few too many, more than once, who never got pulled over? What about any colleagues who maybe got maybe just a smidge too much help with their Personal Statements? Or had a parent get them that summer research slot that impressed the adcoms and led to a publication?
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Again, most of what you said is completely irrelevant to responsibilities someone takes as a PHYSICIANS!!!
- Fellow med students who cheated along the way and got in? Good for them. Best of luck to them in passing their steps!!
- Premed driving buzzed? If he gets wrecked and dies, its on him. He's not harming any patients here though. And yes, he is putting others' lives at risk but he isn't doing it in a professional environment.
- Personal Statements/ research that led to publication? Not sure what that has to do with a patient at risk of being harmed by their physician's potential unethical decision making.
 
Lawper said:
And how would a professor, Dean, honor committee etc. would counter this type of cheating? This is assuming that there are no written verification/proof/convos involved in this.
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What's with all the hypothetical scenarios? If it happens and they get caught with old exams when they were told not to, they go before the honor council and it gets handled as they handle it. I know many people did this and never got caught but it's a pretty big risk to take for people considering med school.
 
rajp98 said:
YOUR BEST BET IS TO WRITE A LETTER OF PLEA TO THE SCHOOL. DO NOT GIVE UP. IF YOU UNDERSTAND AND WHOLLY REGRET YOUR MISTAKE YOU CAN GET COMPENSATION.
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texan2414 said:
ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS MAKE A C !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Lawper said:
And how would a professor, Dean, honor committee etc. would counter this type of cheating? This is assuming that there are no written verification/proof/convos involved in this.
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There are ways, and if I catch you with My old exams, you're toast.

Edit: normally it is spotted in a student's binder. Cheaters are often egotistical and careless. Couple that with comparison of the student test score relative to their knowledge base in convos... Yeah...
 
Ismet said:
What's with all the hypothetical scenarios? If it happens and they get caught with old exams when they were told not to, they go before the honor council and it gets handled as they handle it. I know many people did this and never got caught but it's a pretty big risk to take for people considering med school.
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Because these scenarios are much more pervasive and constitute a deeper form of cheating. When people send old exams or find old exams online, they don't have to reveal that they found it (well besides the actual sender who is committing the obvious risk of sending)

The issue is closely related to piracy and copyright violations. Consumers can pirate books/music etc for free by using various proxy networks, while the actual server hosting these illegal files are at a greater risk.

That's why i feel there are really different severity levels of cheating, so the consequences and IAs aren't uniform

ImmunoLove said:
There are ways, and if I catch you with My old exams, you're toast.

Edit: normally it is spotted in a student's binder. Cheaters are often egotistical and careless. Couple that with comparison of the student test score relative to their knowledge base in convos... Yeah...
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Clearly those cheaters are *****s and got what they're asking for. But smart students can easily keep the old copies at home after thoroughly studying them (or hide them effectively). Such breaches only means that instructors are forced to make different exams...

.... or more simply, don't give the graded exams back to students!
 
Ismet said:
These were upper level courses in fairly specific subjects in my major. Exams were super long and there were multiple forms to reduce cheating. There's really only a finite number of ways to test the same specific content.

They always provided practice questions. No one really complained or seemed to have an issue with it.

For intro level courses, we pretty much always got old exams.
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Well I guess every university and every professor is different. In all of my upper division Bio courses old exams were fair game. You could actually go to the professor or grad assistant and ask for help on questions that were on the old exams. I will say that one of my physics courses and one intro bio course did not allow the use of old exams. They explicitly mentioned that in the syllabus and they never handed the tests back either.
 
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Lawper said:
Because these scenarios are much more pervasive and constitute a deeper form of cheating. When people send old exams or find old exams online, they don't have to reveal that they found it (well besides the actual sender who is committing the obvious risk of sending)

The issue is closely related to piracy and copyright violations. Consumers can pirate books/music etc for free by using various proxy networks, while the actual server hosting these illegal files are at a greater risk.

That's why i feel there are really different severity levels of cheating, so the consequences and IAs aren't uniform



Clearly those cheaters are *****s and got what they're asking for. But smart students can easily keep the old copies at home after thoroughly studying them (or hide them effectively). Such breaches only means that instructors are forced to make different exams...

.... or more simply, don't give the graded exams back to students!
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Well, there are different forms of cheating, just as there are different forms (and severity) of plagiarism. I do agree cheating is pervasive, sadly. In my case, I always write new exams, and they're conceptual-- if you understand the concept, you pass, but there's nothing to regurgitate. Ochem FTW!

I try to press the fact that the point is not to pass the course, but to master the material, as if will haunt them. I tell students it is in their own best interest to use their time and resources here at university wisely to achieve just that. Sure there are those monsters, but many students appear to "see the light" and make their teachers proud.
 
LizzyM said:
Go to the AMCAS Instruction Manual 2016, pages 26 and 27. That's all you need to know. How you behave when "no one will know" is a reflection of your character.
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Reminds me of another one (actually...I think this was in Harry Potter *blush* but it's still true), where you can tell a person's character by how they treat their inferiors, rather than their equals...

texan2414 said:
Again, most of what you said is completely irrelevant to responsibilities someone takes as a PHYSICIANS!!!
- Fellow med students who cheated along the way and got in? Good for them. Best of luck to them in passing their steps!!
- Premed driving buzzed? If he gets wrecked and dies, its on him. He's not harming any patients here though. And yes, he is putting others' lives at risk but he isn't doing it in a professional environment.
- Personal Statements/ research that led to publication? Not sure what that has to do with a patient at risk of being harmed by their physician's potential unethical decision making.
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I think it's a tad bit dangerous to glorify other physicians...while I think you should live up to the highest ethical and moral standards as possible, we should admit that tons of skeevy (and morally questionable) people get admitted to med school and become attendings eventually. I personally know a cardiology fellow at a pretty big research institution (he may be an attending by now, who knows) who committed statutory rape with my best friend (is it considered even if it's consensual? She was 15 and he was 26 at the time) while he was a med student at a top 10 med school. Also know another IM resident that supposedly does a significant portion of my friend's nursing school assignments for her....which basically is helping her cheat through nursing school. I think it's important for all of us not to be on a high horse, even if what OP did was obviously wrong. People make mistakes, and since we're in a profession that requires us to be empathetic even towards some of the most horrid people, we should probably get practicing on it now.
 
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musicalfeet said:
Reminds me of another one (actually...I think this was in Harry Potter *blush* but it's still true), where you can tell a person's character by how they treat their inferiors, rather than their equals...



I think it's a tad bit dangerous to glorify other physicians...while I think you should live up to the highest ethical and moral standards as possible, we should admit that tons of skeevy people get admitted to med school and become attendings eventually. I personally know a cardiology fellow at a pretty big research institution (he may be an attending by now, who knows) who committed statutory rape with my best friend (is it considered even if it's consensual? She was 15 and he was 26 at the time) while he was a med student at a top 10 med school. Also know another IM resident that supposedly does a significant portion of my friend's nursing school assignments for her....which basically is helping her cheat through nursing school. I think it's important for all of us not to be on a high horse, even if what OP did was obviously wrong. People make mistakes, and since we're in a profession that requires us to be empathetic even towards some of the most horrid people, we should probably get practicing on it now.
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Interestingly, medicine historically has attracted a psychologically "interesting" bunch...
 
ImmunoLove said:
Well, there are different forms of cheating, just as there are different forms (and severity) of plagiarism. I do agree cheating is pervasive, sadly. In my case, I always write new exams, and they're conceptual-- if you understand the concept, you pass, but there's nothing to regurgitate. Ochem FTW!

I try to press the fact that the point is not to pass the course, but to master the material, as if will haunt them. I tell students it is in their own best interest to use their time and resources here at university wisely to achieve just that. Sure there are those monsters, but many students appear to "see the light" and make their teachers proud.
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Fortunately, cheating is next to impossible for any subject that requires analytical and reasoning skills (i.e. literally anything but memorization-heavy biology courses and other poorly taught subjects). However, the difficulty lies in tracking down these subtle incidences of cheating that derails exam quality and fairness
 
Lawper said:
Fortunately, cheating is next to impossible for any subject that requires analytical and reasoning skills (i.e. literally anything but memorization-heavy biology courses and other poorly taught subjects). However, the difficulty lies in tracking down these subtle incidences of cheating that derails exam quality and fairness
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For this reason, I don't assign graded homework; I'll give you hw I think will help, but it's all on you. You get four exams and a final. I drop one of the exams (not the final). Your score is your score. I'm always available for questions and help, but I've been a student and a teacher, so if I haven't said every bs excuse under the sun myself, i assure you I've heard it. In my experience, over time, one gets their "teaching traction" on and it works out rather well. No complaints, surprisingly....
 
Lawper said:
Because these scenarios are much more pervasive and constitute a deeper form of cheating. When people send old exams or find old exams online, they don't have to reveal that they found it (well besides the actual sender who is committing the obvious risk of sending)

The issue is closely related to piracy and copyright violations. Consumers can pirate books/music etc for free by using various proxy networks, while the actual server hosting these illegal files are at a greater risk.

That's why i feel there are really different severity levels of cheating, so the consequences and IAs aren't uniform



Clearly those cheaters are *****s and got what they're asking for. But smart students can easily keep the old copies at home after thoroughly studying them (or hide them effectively). Such breaches only means that instructors are forced to make different exams...

.... or more simply, don't give the graded exams back to students!
Click to expand...
The piracy thing is interesting because on one of my student tours during an interview, they told me not to buy the books and many students pirated them. I'm personally not a fan, but it surprised me to see it discussed that casually
 
I know plenty of guaranteed-medical students who cheat in almost all of their pre-med classes here at my school. It's gotten to the point where dozens of people at my school (which is a large, state public institution, btw) know about the incidents to the point that they can say "Oh yeah they were sitting in physics in those exact seats of this exact lecture hall when they were cheating". It makes me SO angry because I applied for the same GMED program but did not get accepted so now I have to apply like a regular student, while these bozos get to fool around in all their classes because they only have to meet minimal criteria. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of other GMED students who are great people and put their 100% into their classes, but it's that 5% that really pisses me off...

With that said, I do pity OP because this didn't seem like a character flaw, but a simple lack of judgement. It will take time, brutal honesty, and a reevaluation of your life to get through this, but I wish you all the best.
 
abesapirstein said:
But my friend went to the professor's office hours and noticed that he was writing the final on his computer, which at that point was about 3/4 complete. He managed to take pictures of it when the professor left for some reason and sent them to me and other people.
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OP, you seriously need better choice in friends. Because when you have dumb friends, dumb stuff happens to you.

maheenk said:
I know plenty of guaranteed-medical students who cheat in almost all of their pre-med classes here at my school. It's gotten to the point where dozens of people at my school (which is a large, state public institution, btw) know about the incidents to the point that they can say "Oh yeah they were sitting in physics in those exact seats of this exact lecture hall when they were cheating". It makes me SO angry because I applied for the same GMED program but did not get accepted so now I have to apply like a regular student, while these bozos get to fool around in all their classes because they only have to meet minimal criteria. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of other GMED students who are great people and put their 100% into their classes, but it's that 5% that really pisses me off...
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There's cheating going on even with proctors in the room?!? That's insane...
 
texan2414 said:
I'm just really glad that for all these supposed cheaters who try to gain unfair advantage, the MCAT will be there to stop them dead in the tracks! I remember my Gen Phys I class where we were in a big lecture hall for exams and literally everyone in the backrow cheated and NOTHING HAPPENED. At the end of the semester though, the entire class was curved down lol. An A was 95+
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Same happens at my college physics classes - people would stand in groups the moment the exam ended frantically sharing answers. It was beyond maddening - but breaking their curve fair and square made up for it!
 
bananafish94 said:
You hear that kids? That's the sound of a waitlist moving. Rest in peacaroni.

In all seriousness though...this jerkoff gets an acceptance and I only have one II? Ugh.
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If I already had an acceptance right now I may be singing a different tune...But the fact this schmuck with questionable character and integrity got into a school and I havent...off with ye' head.
 
XxThaDoggxX said:
If I already had an acceptance right now I may be singing a different tune...But the fact this schmuck with questionable character and integrity got into a school and I havent...off with ye' head.
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Right there with ya buddy. Normally I'm always sympathetic regardless of the situation, but it really rubs me the wrong way.
 
Man, just thinking about how OP must have felt when s/he got caught made my stomach sink.

Honestly, even if someone did decide to not tell their med school about an IA and initially got away with it, how could they live with that hanging over their heads, knowing they could be expelled or have their license rescinded at any time?
 
Lawper said:
Fortunately, cheating is next to impossible for any subject that requires analytical and reasoning skills (i.e. literally anything but memorization-heavy biology courses and other poorly taught subjects). However, the difficulty lies in tracking down these subtle incidences of cheating that derails exam quality and fairness
Click to expand...

Oh, you'd be surprised how many ways people find to cheat in math. We caught a ton of cheaters when I TA'd for calculus.
 
Ismet said:
When I quoted you i thought you said "couple exams" instead of examples.

You are suggesting to OP that on top of cheating, he also lie. Good one. AAMC requires applicants to disclose any IAs obtained after admission.

Personally I'd rather not go through 4 years of med school constantly worried that I'd be found out, kicked out, and left with a massive debt and high interest with no career to show for it.

Instead of covering up dishonesty with more dishonesty, the correct advice is to be honest and brace for the inevitable, and hope that after a few years and some demonstrated maturity he can try again.
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Troubling considering @philosonista is a philosophy major or w/e
 
Time to move on. Mistakes happen, dreams fade away, but that doesn't mean you can't go on to a lead a full, meaningful and enjoyable life (please don't say medicine is the only field that can make you feel..err..complete). Look into other pursuits that interest you. On a side note, I'm curious how the penalty will differ between dissemination and reception, so feel free to update us on the final verdict.
 
ImmunoLove said:
For this reason, I don't assign graded homework; I'll give you hw I think will help, but it's all on you. You get four exams and a final. I drop one of the exams (not the final). Your score is your score. I'm always available for questions and help, but I've been a student and a teacher, so if I haven't said every bs excuse under the sun myself, i assure you I've heard it. In my experience, over time, one gets their "teaching traction" on and it works out rather well. No complaints, surprisingly....
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I'm sorry! i'm sorry! i will turn in my assignment on the ethics of cheating ASAP even though it was due few hours ago... but i lost my internet connection on top of my dog eating all the paper supplies, my printer combusting to flames, my roommates smashing the walls for senseless thrill and an angry drunk mob pillaging my apartment room. So yeah.

Also will there be a curve? I really want to get that A+.
 
abesapirstein said:
Hello SDN. Back in November, I was fortunate enough to get into one of my dream schools! Unfortunately, after that, I became very complacent with my grades and was at risk of getting a C or D in biochemistry if I didn't do really well on the final, which is worth 35% of the final grade. For the record, I was never planning to do anything wrong and was studying very hard for it. But my friend went to the professor's office hours and noticed that he was writing the final on his computer, which at that point was about 3/4 complete. He managed to take pictures of it when the professor left for some reason and sent them to me and other people. I did look at it and use it to study, I admit it. I felt like my back was against the wall. Somebody reported us and there's not really much I could do to defend myself because there was a whole email thread of discussion about the test questions that I was part of. I'm scheduled for a hearing after winter break, where I am told I will almost certainly get an institutional action. What should I do? If I tell the medical school I feel like I could get my admission rescinded. Is this something I legally have to report? I don't ever cheat. I feel so lost right now.

Edit: using new account for obvious reasons
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😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕😕
 
abesapirstein said:
What should I do? If I tell the medical school I feel like I could get my admission rescinded. Is this something I legally have to report? I don't ever cheat. I feel so lost right now.
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Don't tell them, I'm sure they won't question why you have F for a class at the end of the semester.
 
piii said:
And how would you feel having a classmate with this history?
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If we're being realistic there are plenty of people who have done much shadier things than OP before/during med school and just didn't get caught.
 
Lawper said:
Time to bust out the philosophy whizzes here to set things straight

@efle @Lucca @ImmunoLove @Nietzschelover

I know they already participated but its purely for philosophy
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It's kinda crappy how the goal of moral philosophy IS to create universal generalities to guide ethical behavior, but we have individuals who give the impression that they care to espouse philosophy, but rely on weakass BS relativism. What's worse is their ridiculous amount of projection onto others. No, not everyone cheats at some point in school or even at all. Yes, physicians are held to higher standards than college students. This is why when cheaters can't even be held to the same standards as BASIC college students, it is UNFAIR to NOT blast the future medical aspirations of such folk into space dust. Rendering any special treatment diminishes the value in even having these ethical expectations. Save your "well I know a doctor with 6 DUIs" stories for less rational discussion.

There are plenty of great experiences that impart life lessons that will demonstrate great character and being a strong candidate for medicine. Many do not involve cheating and lying and scrambling at effectively being a victim or recovering an aspect of yourself that should have never been freely wasted. @philosonista is the exact type of person I pray never speaks ethics within earshot of children under the age of 8, since by that point, they'd know better than to entertain such pathetic morality.
philosonista said:
1) actually is the problem: The ruthlessness with which Goro and other ADCOMs demonize those on here with IA's is incredible --- they pose it not as a learning experience if is anything more than weed or alcohol violation, but as a mark of a permanent moral defect. I have no respect for that no-growth, reductive view of how morals work. It is wrong and very lazy thinking.

2) The kangaroo court plays into the medical school system. That medical schools trust the kangaroo courts is patently disturbing to me, especially with how Title IX is allowing just about anyone to sabotage anyone else. Since identity politics are so popular, let me put it on the record that I am actually a girl who does not support Title IX.
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philosonista said:
1) actually is the problem: The ruthlessness with which Goro and other ADCOMs demonize those on here with IA's is incredible --- they pose it not as a learning experience if is anything more than weed or alcohol violation, but as a mark of a permanent moral defect. I have no respect for that no-growth, reductive view of how morals work. It is wrong and very lazy thinking.

2) The kangaroo court plays into the medical school system. That medical schools trust the kangaroo courts is patently disturbing to me, especially with how Title IX is allowing just about anyone to sabotage anyone else. Since identity politics are so popular, let me put it on the record that I am actually a girl who does not support Title IX.
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You are just a pre-medical student. You are not an admissions committee member nor were you ever in a position to make character judgments for professionals such as physicians.
Until and unless you are AT that professional level, your opinions sadly don't mean a thing.
 
@philosonista does have a point that it is a bit ridiculous to view weed and alcohol violations as something redeemable while cheating is not. All of these transgressions demonstrate dishonesty and very poor lack of judgment. People view the former as redeemable only because they can relate to doing it or know colleagues, friends and relatives who have done it (hell, a lot of professional folks I know admit to smoking pot and drinking alcohol while underage) whereas they cannot relate to cheating or other forms of academic dishonesty. Thus, it's much easier to demonize the latter than the former.

In a purist sense, you honestly either have to never consider factors such as personal growth, increased maturity, etc. for all deviant acts that result in violations of law/academic conduct, or you have to believe that people can learn from their mistakes and never repeat them again, including cheating.

I can appreciate the rationale behind not admitting known cheaters to medical school out of fear that they will commit even graver ethical violations as an attending physician, but it is a bit hypocritical in my opinion to see past incidents of minor theft (i.e., as a prank), drug use, and underage alcohol consumption as something less serious.

texan2414 said:
You are just a pre-medical student. You are not an admissions committee member nor were you ever in a position to make character judgments for professionals such as physicians.
Until and unless you are AT that professional level, your opinions sadly don't mean a thing.
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What's with the outright hostility and ad hominem attack? This is a forum that is meant to foster discussion. Job occupations, educational status, etc. are not so relevant as the fact that everyone who visits these forums are anonymous posters on the Internet. I believe that it is important for us as human beings to discuss ideas and incorporate superior ones as our own. Please keep this civil, even if you vehemently disagree with a poster's views.
 
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As I walk out of my premed tests and gaze around me at all the fellow premeds I know that cheated, and didn't study or learn the material half as well as I did, I can't help but feel a strange sense of satisfaction from the OPs situation. While my GPA may not be the greatest (3.4), I know I will never have to worry about having an IA ultimatum because I EARNED every single grade I got (good or bad). Unfortunately I have very little sympathy for the OP because each time I walk out of one of those tests, I always think "man I wish they got caught", "they" being that premed who suffers from imposter syndrome and wears his scrubs from "working at the ER" to ochem lab and then cheats on the tests.....

At my school the number of IA's for academic dishonesty in the biology/biochem department are through the roof (1st place). But in our engineering department it is the lowest in the school. It seems to me my engineer peers have a collaborative approach to whereas my premed peers have a cut-throat/ get ahead at all cost attitude. Lord sometimes I worry about my (possible) future colleagues.
 
So if he wasn't part of the email thread, would it still be a valid II for receiving pictures? I think not?
 
Alkaloid said:
The piracy thing is interesting because on one of my student tours during an interview, they told me not to buy the books and many students pirated them. I'm personally not a fan, but it surprised me to see it discussed that casually
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Yeah that's pretty ridiculous. A professor of mine asked students to send him any PDF copies of books they had to help his future/current students.
 
musicalfeet said:
I personally know a cardiology fellow at a pretty big research institution (he may be an attending by now, who knows) who committed statutory rape with my best friend (is it considered even if it's consensual? She was 15 and he was 26 at the time) while he was a med student at a top 10 med school...
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Why did you not report this? That's a serious felony, and one that has the potential to sorta ruin the girl psychologically later on? Not reporting a crime like that when someone knows about it often carries legal consequences too!

If I hear it had something to do with not wanting to jeopardize this clown's "promising career" I might explode!
 
musicalfeet said:
med
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SLC said:
Why did you not report this? That's a serious felony, and one that has the potential to sorta ruin the girl psychologically later on? Not reporting a crime like that when someone knows about it often carries legal consequences too!

If I hear it had something to do with not wanting to jeopardize this clown's "promising career" I might explode!
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You would report it even if it was consensual?
 
Lawper said:
I'm sorry! i'm sorry! i will turn in my assignment on the ethics of cheating ASAP even though it was due few hours ago... but i lost my internet connection on top of my dog eating all the paper supplies, my printer combusting to flames, my roommates smashing the walls for senseless thrill and an angry drunk mob pillaging my apartment room. So yeah.

Also will there be a curve? I really want to get that A+.
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OMG they ALWAYS ask about the curve!

And for ochem, sadly, yes, there's a curve (lest I fail most of the class). The grade distribution varies little; people are predictable, just the say my research mind like it--though I try to mix it up and strive for improvement.
 
SLC said:
There's no such thing as consensual when one party is underage.
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I do believe the laws regarding statutory rape -specifically Classification of consensual intercourse among minors "below the age of consent" varies by state. That is, the "age of consent" varies in different jurisdictions. Also, some states may have clauses for when it is applicable (eg in CA, I think one party can be over 18 while the other is a minor, provided their age difference is less than X years).

That said, 15 to 26 is quite the age difference, and if 15 is under the "age of consent " in that state, then yes, that's statutory rape. Even if 15 is above the age of consent (and it's not legally considered statutory rape in the jurisdiction in which it occurred), it definitely is unsettling...
 
musicalfeet said:
I think it's a tad bit dangerous to glorify other physicians...while I think you should live up to the highest ethical and moral standards as possible, we should admit that tons of skeevy (and morally questionable) people get admitted to med school and become attendings eventually. I personally know a cardiology fellow at a pretty big research institution (he may be an attending by now, who knows) who committed statutory rape with my best friend (is it considered even if it's consensual? She was 15 and he was 26 at the time) while he was a med student at a top 10 med school. Also know another IM resident that supposedly does a significant portion of my friend's nursing school assignments for her....which basically is helping her cheat through nursing school. I think it's important for all of us not to be on a high horse, even if what OP did was obviously wrong. People make mistakes, and since we're in a profession that requires us to be empathetic even towards some of the most horrid people, we should probably get practicing on it now.
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Rape and cheating aren't mistakes. They are intentional decisions.

And for real, the first one should be in jail.
 
It's not like OP was getting an A/B/C for sure. He decided to risk it in order to not get a D. Couldn't his medical school rescind his acceptance for a D?
 
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