the best clinical programs?

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rajmahal1980

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I'm sure there is a similar post from a while back but I just wanted to start a discussion on the best clinical programs. Which ones do you rate highly and why?

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Well I just visited Temple and that was really the big seller there, lots of people to work on, means lots of clinical experience. They have a huge patient pool. I also know that UOP is a great clinical school, same with Creighton.
 
out of the places i have been i would say temple...lots of patients, lots of clinic time
 
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rajmahal2004 said:
I'm sure there is a similar post from a while back but I just wanted to start a discussion on the best clinical programs. Which ones do you rate highly and why?


this is like apples and oranges my man, so many school give you a good clinical education. anything you hear from a predent or even dental student isn't going to tell you the whole truth
 
rajmahal2004 said:
I'm sure there is a similar post from a while back but I just wanted to start a discussion on the best clinical programs. Which ones do you rate highly and why?

It's very easy to tell. After each interview you can easily tell which school has a bad clinical program. For example, if a school tells you that you should advertise in yellow pages to get patients or pay patients to come to school in order to satisfy requirements you know that the school simply doesn't have a good clinical program. period. Believe it or not, this isn't a hypothetical example or exaggeration. :eek: One school told me that. ;) If a school tells you that it has 120K-140K patient visits per year and you learn to do just about anything you can think of then you can conclude the school is very good clinically. National Board Part II also tells a story. If students have one million patients but have a hard time passing part II there is something wrong.
 
dat_student said:
It's very easy to tell. After each interview you can easily tell which school has a bad clinical program. For example, if a school tells you that you should advertise in yellow pages to get patients or pay patients to come to school in order to satisfy requirements you know that the school simply doesn't have a good clinical program. period. Believe it or not, this isn't a hypothetical example or exaggeration. :eek: One school told me that. ;) If a school tells you that it has 120K-140K patient visits per year and you learn to do just about anything you can think of then you can conclude the school is very good clinically. National Board Part II also tells a story. If students have one million patients but have a hard time passing part II there is something wrong.

I don't think NBDE II has that much to do with it. Generally 4th years don't care what they get on this as long as they pass. It typically has no relevance to residency acceptance because they've already applied or been accepted at that point.
 
drhobie7 said:
I don't think NBDE II has that much to do with it. Generally 4th years don't care what they get one this as long as they pass. It typically has no relevance to residency acceptance because they've already applied or been accepted at that point.

I didn't know that. Thanks so much
 
also there is an ada stat that tells how many patients go to a particular school if anybody cares to find that stat for all schools, temple mentioned what their ada patient pool was during the interview
 
Of course the number of patients is a big factor but what about how they are treated? At UOP they say that you treat every patient you see no matter how complex the problem. Of course they don't have many specialties to refer to.

Are there other schools that do that and really allow students to treat everything that comes there way?
 
bkwash said:
also there is an ada stat that tells how many patients go to a particular school if anybody cares to find that stat for all schools, temple mentioned what their ada patient pool was during the interview

Do you know where we can find that info? Do you have a direct link? Is it a book or an internet web site? Thanks so much in advance.
 
rajmahal2004 said:
Of course the number of patients is a big factor but what about how they are treated? At UOP they say that you treat every patient you see no matter how complex the problem. Of course they don't have many specialties to refer to.

Are there other schools that do that and really allow students to treat everything that comes there way?

UOP just has a bad reputation in California. You should stay away from UOP as much as possible. They take high AA students and convert them to avg performers on national boards. Plus, it makes no sense to compress 4 yrs of education into 3 yrs. In addition, if you want to specialize UOP is an absolute no. Raj, you have better choices in California if you want to stay in California. Schools accept sub-3.0 GPA students if AA is very high and/or there is a drastic upward trend. When I look at the ranges I see that even very good schools have students with < 3.0 GPA (not many; a few students).
 
dat_student said:
UOP just has a bad reputation in California. You should stay away from UOP as much as possible. They take high AA students and convert them to avg performers on national boards. Plus, it makes no sense to compress 4 yrs of education into 3 yrs. In addition, if you want to specialize UOP is an absolute no.

Your statement lacks intelligence.
 
dat_student said:
UOP just has a bad reputation in California. You should stay away from UOP as much as possible. They take high AA students and convert them to avg performers on national boards. Plus, it makes no sense to compress 4 yrs of education into 3 yrs. In addition, if you want to specialize UOP is an absolute no. Raj, you have better choices in California if you want to stay in California. Schools accept sub-3.0 GPA students if AA is very high and/or there is a drastic upward trend. When I look at the ranges I see that even very good schools have students with < 3.0 GPA (not many; a few students).

I've heard a lot of stuff like this before on this website about UOP. But I just don't buy it. The few dentists that I know who went to UOP are great general dentists. They make a boat load of cash and the guy I shadowed who just got out of UoP wasn't affraid of doing anything, he was totally confident in handling all his stuff. Other dentists that I've seen are always consulting with the docs they work with. An example of this was a girl that he knew that went to UCSF who was terrified of root canals when she got out becuase she had only done a few while in school. Not that I'm bad mouthing UCSF I think they are a great school too, but not as clinically strong.
There is a huge advantage to graduating in 3yrs. That's an extra year that you are making money. If you go the millitary route that's one year less that you have to stay in the service too.
I've heard that it's hard to specialize from UoP, and that may be the case, but if you want to go general they are a great school.
As far as the boards are concerned I don't really know anything about it, but as long as you are passing them then what do you care if you are in the top percentile. I'm way more interested in being a good clinician than being #1 on the boards.
 
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dat_student: i have been looking for the info myself...it might be privy only to the people at the school, maybe the ADA site would have it or you can call the school and ask them. I would like to have that number for each school b/f i decide on one...
 
Seem to have plenty of patients for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years here at UNLV.
 
donkeywhisperer said:
...An example of this was a girl that he knew that went to UCSF who was terrified of root canals when she got out becuase she had only done a few while in school. Not that I'm bad mouthing UCSF I think they are a great school too, but not as clinically strong...

A UCSF student a UOP dentist knew or a UCSF student you have shadowed or worked with???!!!

P.S. I didn't say UOP doesn't teach anything. In my opinion, UOP is good for general dentistry. Obviously, if you want to be a general dentist it doesn't matter if you get 99% or 85% or the minimum passing score. BTW, root canals are usually done by endodontists. ;)

bkwash said:
dat_student: i have been looking for the info myself...it might be privy only to the people at the school, maybe the ADA site would have it or you can call the school and ask them. I would like to have that number for each school b/f i decide on one...

It's usually obvious but it's always nice to get exact numbers from a reliable source.
 
dat_student said:
BTW, root canals are usually done by endodontists. ;)

General dentists do many root canals.
 
Rezdawg said:
General dentists do many root canals.

Thanks so much but if general dentists can do it why is that a specialty?
 
dat_student said:
Thanks so much but if general dentists can do it why is that a specialty?

The tougher cases are referred out to endos. A G.P. can easily do a basic root canal.
 
Does anyone know about Columbia's clinical program
 
just another example of DAT_student making a fool of himself. Good job on your DAT and interviews and everything, I think it's great.

but to say that root canals are usually done by endodontists displays a considerable lack of exposure to the field of dentistry. And as for saying UOP has a bad reputation in california.... uh okay, that's a pretty generalized statement that has no merit.

Also: "it makes no sense to compress dental education into 3 years"????

this has been discussed so many times I can hardly beleive that you would even bring that up.

Seriosuly, Raj, stay away from uop, it is terrible. You would hate it there.

Dat_student.... one of these days you should wake up, look in the mirror and realize that you are one of those guys with a great resume, no social skills and the kind of guy people don't like because of the stupid things you say.
 
dat_student said:
Thanks so much but if general dentists can do it why is that a specialty?


Are you serious about that???
 
TimR said:
just another example of DAT_student making a fool of himself. Good job on your DAT and interviews and everything, I think it's great.

but to say that root canals are usually done by endodontists displays a considerable lack of exposure to the field of dentistry. And as for saying UOP has a bad reputation in california.... uh okay, that's a pretty generalized statement that has no merit.

Also: "it makes no sense to compress dental education into 3 years"????

this has been discussed so many times I can hardly beleive that you would even bring that up.

Seriosuly, Raj, stay away from uop, it is terrible. You would hate it there.

Dat_student.... one of these days you should wake up, look in the mirror and realize that you are one of those guys with a great resume, no social skills and the kind of guy people don't like because of the stupid things you say.


I am one of those guys who never say anyone is stupid. I am also one of those guys who express his opinion to help others make right decisions for their future. In general the UC schools are known to be better than UOP. You may not like this statement and I must respect your opinion without calling your comments stupid.
 
DIRTIE said:
Are you serious about that???

Yes I am very serious. I've been told by dental schools and dentists that general dentists try to stay away from root canals and root canal patients are genrally referred to specialists. Plus, I have shadowed general dentists and I don't remember seeing general dentists doing root canals
 
dat_student said:
I am one of those guys who never say anyone is stupid. I am also one of those guys who express his opinion to help others make right decisions for their future. In general the UC schools are known to be better than UOP. You may not like this statement and I must respect your opinion without calling your comments stupid.


Probably inferior clinically though. Its pretty hard to despute Pacific's clinical training. If you want to go to dental school and deal with all of the other fluff that other schools throw at you that is fine, I am doing it. But Pacific costs a ton of money for a reason, they produce solid clinical dentists and they do it fast, period!!
 
dat_student said:
Yes I am very serious. I've been told by dental schools and dentists that general dentists try to stay away from root canals and root canal patients are genrally referred to specialists. Plus, I have shadowed general dentists and I don't remember seeing general dentists doing root canals


Seriously what is wrong with you!!!!!
You can't graduate from dental school without learning how to do root canals. Maybe for different reasons some dentists decided to do none of them, thats great, but you will learn them, and learn them fairly well. Obviously not as in depth and as quick as a specialists.
 
dat_student said:
Yes I am very serious. I've been told by dental schools and dentists that general dentists try to stay away from root canals and root canal patients are genrally referred to specialists. Plus, I have shadowed general dentists and I don't remember seeing general dentists doing root canals

In that case, let me be the one to tell you...General dentists do root canals.
 
DIRTIE said:
But Pacific costs a ton of money for a reason,...

I think that reason is UOP and USC are private schools. UCLA and UCSF are the only public schools in California. In general, public schools are financially supported by public(tax payers, state, etc.).
 
TimR said:
Dat_student.... one of these days you should wake up, look in the mirror and realize that you are one of those guys with a great resume, no social skills and the kind of guy people don't like because of the stupid things you say.

However annoying you find Dat_student, he at least never makes personal attacks on other people.
 
JessicaSimpson said:
However annoying you find Dat_student, he at least never makes personal attacks on other people.

yes, yes. he is a much better person than I am, and will undoubtedly make a better dentist. All apologies.
 
TimR said:
yes, yes. he is a much better person than I am, and will undoubtedly make a better dentist. All apologies.

TimR, I am not much better than you. I just don't see why you attack me when I haven't said anything bad about you. I simply expressed my opinion to help Raj. If you think I misguided Raj you can post your opinion. You don't have to attack me when I haven't done anything against you.
 
dat_student said:
Thanks so much but if general dentists can do it why is that a specialty?


General dentists don't usually do root canals because its not their bread and butter. You mainly see general dentists doing crowns because that's what makes their money. If you were a general dentist and you had an option of doing a root canal case that could take you an hour and 20 minutes when you could do a crown prep and a couple fillings in that time which would you choose? You'd obviously choose to refer it out. It has nothing to do with competence as a dentist (unless maybe its a really really tough/awkward case) but more to do with financial/business type decisions

my general dentists does relatively few root canals, but the ones he does are ones that he can do fast and easy and because he likes to switch it up every once in a while.

and as for your other post saying 'don't go to UOP to specialize' that is just not true at all. the reason ucla/ucsf produce a lot of specialists is because they focus on getting a lot on students with high scores/high gpas (basically students that will generall do well on boards) and they focus on very rigorous didactic programs. However, just because UOP focuses on clinical stuff doesn't mean you can't specialize. If you do well at UOP and do well on your boards you can specialize
 
superchris147 said:
General dentists don't usually do root canals because its not their bread and butter. You mainly see general dentists doing crowns because that's what makes their money. If you were a general dentist and you had an option of doing a root canal case that could take you an hour and 20 minutes when you could do a crown prep and a couple fillings in that time which would you choose? You'd obviously choose to refer it out. It has nothing to do with competence as a dentist (unless maybe its a really really tough/awkward case) but more to do with financial/business type decisions

my general dentists does relatively few root canals, but the ones he does are ones that he can do fast and easy and because he likes to switch it up every once in a while.

and as for your other post saying 'don't go to UOP to specialize' that is just not true at all. the reason ucla/ucsf produce a lot of specialists is because they focus on getting a lot on students with high scores/high gpas (basically students that will generall do well on boards) and they focus on very rigorous didactic programs. However, just because UOP focuses on clinical stuff doesn't mean you can't specialize. If you do well at UOP and do well on your boards you can specialize

Thank you so very much for the clarification
 
dat_student said:
TimR, I am not much better than you. I just don't see why you attack me when I haven't said anything bad about you. I simply expressed my opinion to help Raj. If you think I misguided Raj you can post your opinion. You don't have to attack me when I haven't done anything against you.

sorry.
 
superchris147 said:
General dentists don't usually do root canals because its not their bread and butter. You mainly see general dentists doing crowns because that's what makes their money. If you were a general dentist and you had an option of doing a root canal case that could take you an hour and 20 minutes when you could do a crown prep and a couple fillings in that time which would you choose? You'd obviously choose to refer it out. It has nothing to do with competence as a dentist (unless maybe its a really really tough/awkward case) but more to do with financial/business type decisions

my general dentists does relatively few root canals, but the ones he does are ones that he can do fast and easy and because he likes to switch it up every once in a while.

and as for your other post saying 'don't go to UOP to specialize' that is just not true at all. the reason ucla/ucsf produce a lot of specialists is because they focus on getting a lot on students with high scores/high gpas (basically students that will generall do well on boards) and they focus on very rigorous didactic programs. However, just because UOP focuses on clinical stuff doesn't mean you can't specialize. If you do well at UOP and do well on your boards you can specialize

I'm not sure who the dentists you were shadowing were, but anyone who can do "a crown prep and several fillings" in the time it takes for a root canal is nothing short of amazing. Every office I went to (including the one I worked as a dental assistant at for 2 summers), crown appointments are between an hour and a half to two hours long for the first appointment and a half an hour for the delivery. Root canal appointments, depending on the number of canals and location, were generally between an hour and two hours with no follow up appointment. Economically speaking, root canals are far more profitable than crowns (or fillings for that matter) because the charge is nearly the same for both, and with root canals you have a shorter appointment, no follow up appointment, and best of all, no lab fees. I know there are alot of general dentists who refer out their root canals (the endodontists in our area get more patients than they could possibly hope to see and have to turn people away or schedule them appointments months away), but I don't think they are referring them out because they are unprofitable. It's also true that some of the patients referred to endodontists were sent because the dentist didn't have the proper equipment(a scope), or didn't feel comfortable doing the root canal(either because it was too difficult or the patient was a pain in the...you know). It all boils down to personal preference, and alot of general dentists just dont like to do root canals, so they refer them out instead.
 
hokiedds said:
It all boils down to personal preference, and alot of general dentists just dont like to do root canals, so they refer them out instead.

Finally the truth. As a general dentist you can do anything done by a specialist but you are held to the standard of care of that specialty. That means you can extract full bony impacted 3rd molars, but you'd better do as good a job as an oral surgeon. You can do a connective tissue graft but it better be as good as what a periodontist would do. And you can do an RCT on #1 with calcified, dilacerated roots, but you'd be insane (and it had better be as good as if an endodontist did it). Oh yeah, and you can do ortho too as a general dentist. Tons of general dentists do invisalign and make loads doing it. They are held to the standard of an orthodontist while providing ortho treatment.
 
rajmahal2004 said:
I'm sure there is a similar post from a while back but I just wanted to start a discussion on the best clinical programs.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: what the hell is a "clinical program," much less a "best" one?

I don't know the answer to that. It's subjective. I hung out with and roomed with Temple students at the ADA conference last month, and they were AMAZED at the procedures we're doing at Arizona. We're far busier than they are and doing procedures that they don't get a chance to do. Does that make us a more clinical school, or a better clinical school? I don't know that it does.

In my mind the question is bogus.
 
General dentists learn to do many root canals, and do them well, if they are smart. The instrumentation necessary to complete the procedure is minimal, and the economic rewards can be huge.

A smart dentist also learns when to refer out.
 
rajmahal2004 said:
I'm sure there is a similar post from a while back but I just wanted to start a discussion on the best clinical programs. Which ones do you rate highly and why?

dude, i expected better out of you than to ask unanswerable, pointless douche predent questions like this. ;)
 
phremius said:
dude, i expected better out of you than to ask unanswerable, pointless douche predent questions like this. ;)
OUCH............................
 
Another thing to consider is that regardless of clinical exposure in dental school you will likely do your graduation requirements several times over in the first month of private practice. This is the environment (or residency) in which you will acquire clinical proficiency.
 
Back to the OP...

I'll brag on my own program; at UNC predocs can place their own implants (if they'd like to) and restore them (everyone). We treat comprehensive ortho cases (again, if we'd like to), we have two 4-week long mandatory extramural rotations summer after 3rd year (one hospital, one community-based) that are now being modeled at programs all over the country, a lottery for patients just to get into the school (generally a 2-6 month wait) and patients who drive from Virginia, S.Carolina and Tennessee to be treated, and opportunities to do additional rotations if graduation requirements are completed early. We don't do a whole lot of our own lab work (reason being that once you know it and have done it a few times, why do what a lab will do once you're in private practice?) which allows us to spend more time in clinic or in electives of interest. Throw on top of that the fact that all faculty are required to practice 1+ days/week (so you know they're not teaching what they learned 20 years ago.

All in all, I'd say it's a great program...though I have little but word of mouth from friends to compare it to. :)
 
drhobie7 said:
Finally the truth. As a general dentist you can do anything done by a specialist but you are held to the standard of care of that specialty.

This I didn't know. Who specifically make a dentist comply with the specialty standards of care? Is it the State board itself, the specialty board (even though a general practitioner is not a diplomate of that specialty) ?
 
dat_student said:
Thanks so much but if general dentists can do it why is that a specialty?

My root canal was done by a general dentist. 3 months later an infection developed and I had to get it retreated. The endodontist did the retreatment. :p
 
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