The EMTALA Side Discussion

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bravotwozero

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Let's not forget the obvious EMTALA violation potentially being committed by ortho.

Also, what kind of a ***** doctor has a problem with arranging outpatient follow up? That's $$ in your pocket at your convenience ...I have never had a problem with any consultant having to see someone as an outpatient. Hope this stuff isn't for real!


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Let's not forget the obvious EMTALA violation potentially being committed by ortho.

Also, what kind of a ***** doctor has a problem with arranging outpatient follow up? That's $$ in your pocket at your convenience ...I have never had a problem with any consultant having to see someone as an outpatient. Hope this stuff isn't for real!


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I know. A couple of phone calls like that, and maybe I just give patients the contact info for another orthopod......oops.

Then this orthopod is wondering why the ED never sends him any patients in his office, and the only calls he gets are for urgent ED stuff. Guys like that don't do well in practice. You have to play along in the sandbox.

Don't bite the hand that feeds.
 
The issue with arranging outpatient follow up is that the patients often don't pay, and the orthopedist knows that his name is now on the chart and he's on the hook.


He is NOT on the hook.

EMTALA requires any physician who is taking call for and ED to come in and stabilize a patient if requested by the ED physician. That same physician is NOT required to see them in their office for follow-up if they won't pay.

**Caveat, if a physician does a procedure (like emergent surgery), then they are required to see one follow up visit, as this is all billed as one entity at the time of the surgery**
 
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He is NOT on the hook.

EMTALA requires any physician who is taking call for and ED to come in and stabilize a patient if requested by the ED physician. That same physician is NOT required to see them in their office for follow-up if they won't pay.

**Caveat, if a physician does a procedure (like emergent surgery), then they are required to see one follow up visit, as this is all billed as one entity at the time of the surgery**
Yeah not exactly.
So, yes, if not called, and not contractually obligated to provide follow-up care, then they might not be required to see them. But many are paid to take call and part of the contract requires them to follow up if the patient calls them. It's usually pretty easy to look at the discharge paperwork and see the referral.
Also, if they actually do a procedure, they don't have to follow up, because the emergency obligation has been fulfilled. Anybody can take out staples or sutures. They can charge for that visit (again, notwithstanding any contractual obligation).
 
Yeah not exactly.
So, yes, if not called, and not contractually obligated to provide follow-up care, then they might not be required to see them. But many are paid to take call and part of the contract requires them to follow up if the patient calls them. It's usually pretty easy to look at the discharge paperwork and see the referral.
Also, if they actually do a procedure, they don't have to follow up, because the emergency obligation has been fulfilled. Anybody can take out staples or sutures. They can charge for that visit (again, notwithstanding any contractual obligation).


Well if their contract says something, then that is the contract. I was only discussing the legal obligations related to EMTALA and billing for procedures.

Even if is written that " discussed case with Dr. Bone, will see patient in office" on the chart, does not in any way constitute an established relationship with that patient, and therefore a "duty" to treat them. If an on-call physician is consulted regarding stabilizing care in the ED, they can fulfill their EMTALA requirements without establishing a relationship with that patient, and therefore a duty to that patient. How much care they provide is tricky, because at some point they cross that line, and a relationship has been established.

This brings us to your second point, where you are mistaken again.

When you do a procedure on a person, and bill for that procedure, you are billing for what you did, as well as any and all necessary follow up.

Using your example: If a surgeon does some sutures in the ED, then the surgeon is obligated to remove the sutures, because he put them in. Now for the most part, this never plays out, because anyone really can remove some sutures, but if that patient comes to his office for the suture removal (that is the necessary follow up), but the surgeon refuses to see him, that surgeon is technically guilty of insurance fraud (he billed for the follow up, but refused to provide).
 
Well if their contract says something, then that is the contract. I was only discussing the legal obligations related to EMTALA and billing for procedures.

Even if is written that " discussed case with Dr. Bone, will see patient in office" on the chart, does not in any way constitute an established relationship with that patient, and therefore a "duty" to treat them. If an on-call physician is consulted regarding stabilizing care in the ED, they can fulfill their EMTALA requirements without establishing a relationship with that patient, and therefore a duty to that patient. How much care they provide is tricky, because at some point they cross that line, and a relationship has been established.
Not quite. Since I've been fighting EMTALA violations since I came to Texas, I've had to read up a fair amount on them. Ophthalmologists and ENT are the worst. I've even heard the wrong statement "I'm not on call for the whole state", when of course they actually are. Most of the contracts are written that way to protect the hospitals, not the doctors. Since hospitals have lost cases from this, you'd better believe they're trying to protect themselves.
That being said, you can absolutely have a patient-physician relationship just from a phone call. From https://www.magmutual.com/learning/article/physician-call-obligations-emtala-and-beyond
In some cases, a physician-patient relationship is created even when the on-call physician does not personally examine or treat the patient. The on-call physician may be “treating” a patient jointly with the ED physician when:

  • The physician interprets patient data such as labs, EKGs, or radiographic images
  • The physician participates in diagnosing a patient and prescribing a course of treatment
  • The ED physician must rely on the on-call physician’s expertise rather than exercising his or her own judgment in treating a patient
  • A patient-physician relationship will probably not be found where:
  • The on-call physician merely advises the treating physician as to general patient care
  • The on-call physician is consulted only for a possible referral of a patient
  • The treating physician exercises independent judgment in determining whether to accept or reject a consulting physician’s advice
Because this is such a gray area, the treating physician should communicate clearly what he or she needs or expects from the on-call physician. Unless it is otherwise clear from the circumstances, the on-call physician should presume that the ED physician is relying on his or her opinion. The on-call physician should advise the treating physician as thoughtfully as if the ED patient was his or her own.

When the on-call physician interprets data, makes a diagnosis, advises a specific course of treatment, and agrees to see the patient in follow-up as part of the treatment plan, he or she should document the conversation and any medical decision-making. If the ED physician has questions of a general nature, the sample language for curbside consults can be used. (See our article, “How to Appropriately Ask For-and Respond to-‘Curbside’ Consultations”.)
So, if all you ask Dr. Bone is if the patient can follow up next week, then no. But if they mention a splint type or something else they want done, then hells yes they've established a relationship.
And from http://www.ebmedicine.net/content.php?action=showPage&pid=27&cat_id=4
5) If contacted by the ED, must the on-call physician provide follow-up services in the office?

The simple answer is YES, if you want to stay out of trouble.

This is difficult because HCFA and the courts have not been able to agree upon what the law actually requires of on-call physicians. What is clear is that the hospital will be held responsible if the patient does not get the necessary care. In addition, plaintiff’s attorneys are using this situation as a ploy to add additional liability when a bad outcome occurs. Some have the opinion that the agreement by the on-call physician to provide these services in follow-up creates a patient–physician relationship and to later refuse creates a possible patient abandonment situation. These issues have led several hospitals to establish in their medical staff bylaws or rules and regulations a requirement for on-call physicians to provide this follow-up care. So, there may be other reasons besides EMTALA to provide outpatient follow-up. As this becomes more of a problem, I believe eventually there will be new legislation to clarify this responsibility.

Until this IS clarified, to stay our of trouble, on-call physicians should provide follow-up services in their office necessary to further stabilize or prevent de-stabilization of an emergency medical condition without a request for payment up front.
This brings us to your second point, where you are mistaken again.

When you do a procedure on a person, and bill for that procedure, you are billing for what you did, as well as any and all necessary follow up.

Using your example: If a surgeon does some sutures in the ED, then the surgeon is obligated to remove the sutures, because he put them in. Now for the most part, this never plays out, because anyone really can remove some sutures, but if that patient comes to his office for the suture removal (that is the necessary follow up), but the surgeon refuses to see him, that surgeon is technically guilty of insurance fraud (he billed for the follow up, but refused to provide).
Second, the global fee only applies to CMS, and doesn't apply to all physicians or all procedures. Since EMTALA only applies to emergency medical conditions and not emergency medical followup, they aren't required to see them unless they are contractually obligated.
That being said, from http://www.omic.com/the-ophthalmolo...re-on-call-and-follow-up-duites-under-emtala/
POST-DISCHARGE CARE

Under EMTALA, who is responsible for follow-up care?

EMTALA stipulates that the hospital must provide the patient with “a plan for appropriate follow-up care as part of the discharge instructions” (80). The Interpretive Guidelines clarify that the hospital is “‘expected within reason’ to assist or provide discharged patients with the necessary information to secure follow-up care in order to prevent relapse or deterioration of the medical condition” (80). The plan should include resources that are geographically and financially accessible to the patient. If the patient is “not aligned with a local physician or the hospital does not arrange follow-up care, the hospital should consider giving the patient instructions to return to the hospital for follow-up services if the patient is unable to find a physician or a provider” (80).
If I am on call to the ED, does EMTALA require me to provide post-discharge care?

Your responsibility as a physician for post-discharge care is not discussed in the EMTALA statutes or interpretive guidelines (CPLH 14:53). To complicate the situation further, the hospital’s EMTALA obligations end when a physician or qualified medical person decides that there is no emergency medical condition (although the underlying medical condition may persist), or that the emergency medical condition still exists but the patient is appropriately transferred or admitted to the hospital for further stabilizing treatment (CPLH 14:53).


EMTALA, therefore, does not mandate who must provide the post-discharge services, nor stipulate that the hospital must ensure that follow-up care is obtained. Thus it is not clear under EMTALA whether or not physicians have a duty to provide post-discharge care for emergency patients. Moreover, once the treating physician has determined that the patient either has no “emergency medical condition” or is “stable for discharge,” the hospital has no further obligation, and EMTALA no longer applies to the physician or the hospital.
 
Not quite. Since I've been fighting EMTALA violations since I came to Texas, I've had to read up a fair amount on them. Ophthalmologists and ENT are the worst. I've even heard the wrong statement "I'm not on call for the whole state", when of course they actually are. Most of the contracts are written that way to protect the hospitals, not the doctors. Since hospitals have lost cases from this, you'd better believe they're trying to protect themselves.
That being said, you can absolutely have a patient-physician relationship just from a phone call. From https://www.magmutual.com/learning/article/physician-call-obligations-emtala-and-beyond
So, if all you ask Dr. Bone is if the patient can follow up next week, then no. But if they mention a splint type or something else they want done, then hells yes they've established a relationship.
And from http://www.ebmedicine.net/content.php?action=showPage&pid=27&cat_id=4


Second, the global fee only applies to CMS, and doesn't apply to all physicians or all procedures. Since EMTALA only applies to emergency medical conditions and not emergency medical followup, they aren't required to see them unless they are contractually obligated.
That being said, from http://www.omic.com/the-ophthalmolo...re-on-call-and-follow-up-duites-under-emtala/


So basically you agree with everything that I have said in last two posts........
 
So basically you agree with everything that I have said in last two posts........
No, but you apparently have difficulty reading. Sorry, you're just wrong. I've yet to see a shred of evidence backing up your side.
 
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