The Future of DOs?

[deleted564680]

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Hello all, just wanted to get a conversation going about the possible future of DOs....

Fact:
- Merger of AOA/ACGME by 2020 and all residency programs must meet initial criteria by 2020 to be valid to continue
- All programs will be either 1. ACGME or 2. ACGME with "osteopathic principles" (all applicants may apply to either type with MDs likely required to pass an initial "test" on "osteopathic principles")

Speculation: With the merger and strict ACGME guidelines....
- No laxity in guidelines likely, many former AOA residency programs will have to adapt, merge, or close yielding a possible 10-40% loss of residency programs that will not be able to qualify
= Loss of AOA subspecialty residencies will greatly reduce specialty trained DOs
= Possibility of DO degree becoming a "primary care" degree when MDs allowed into former AOA specialty programs and DOs still discriminated against in ACGME specialty programs
- ACGME is residency governing body, the next step possibly will be standardized accreditation for medical schools
= This could lead to many DO schools that "qualify" to apply for and offer MD degrees instead of DO
= Many DO schools could close...have heard somewhere in the range of 25-40% of DO schools would currently meet standards
= Erasing of DO degree??? Those who have read history will realize this was attempted many times by the AMA in the last 100 years

Sources for above: 2 AOA residency DMEs, 1 Medical school dean, and http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/Nasca-Community/FAQs.pdf

Overall:
- Loss of a good chunk of AOA residencies?
- Loss of DO specialists going forward?
- Loss of DO schools/stoppage of DO school expansion?
- Loss of new DO degrees being conferred at all after schools either switch to MD granting or close???
- Are these losses "acceptable" to have a standardization of medical schools and residencies across the country?


This is all just for conversation and fun to talk about. I think it would be interesting to hear many sides, especially those who are strong DO supporters and those who wouldn't mind trading in their DO for an MD.

 

[NurWollen]

I didn't know Dr. Norm Gevitz is an SDNer, cool!

 

[racerwad]

...
Overall:
- Loss of a good chunk of AOA residencies?
- Loss of DO specialists going forward?
- Loss of DO schools/stoppage of DO school expansion?
- Loss of new DO degrees being conferred at all after schools either switch to MD granting or close???
- Are these losses "acceptable" to have a standardization of medical schools and residencies across the country?

...

So you're asking if it's a bad thing if:
-residencies found to be substandard close?
-DO schools stop irresponsible, unsustainable growth?
-the remaining DO schools and residencies increase in quality?

A rising ride raises all ships, but it is inevitable that some individuals will lose out. I can't see how this isn't a good thing overall for both osteopathic students and patients.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

There's no trend suggesting that DO's will be restricted to ACGME primary care specialties. I just looked at the 2014 data and found that, if we eliminate those who matched IM and Peds because we can't know for sure whether they will become PCPs, become hospitalists, or pursue fellowships, nearly half matched subspecialty residencies (EM, Rads, Gas, PMR, GS, Psych, etc...).

 

[NurWollen]

There's no trend suggesting that DO's will be restricted to ACGME primary care specialties. I just looked at the 2014 data and found that, if we eliminate those who matched IM and Peds because we can't know for sure whether they will become PCPs, become hospitalists, or pursue fellowships, nearly half matched subspecialty residencies (EM, Rads, Gas, PMR, GS, Psych, etc...).

Exactly. The many, many subspecialty programs that already take DOs aren't going to stop doing so post-merger.

 

[CrocodilePancake]

Agree with the above, but here are my two cents. I'll be graduating in '18, so it may not be as important for us graduating before 2020, but it will be interesting 15 or so years down the road how things will turn out. IMO, there's a great disconnect between the AOA and the general osteopathic medical student body. The AOA is attempting to survive the merger by maintaining their identity as a "seperate, but equal" form of medical education. Most (All?) of the deans/leadership of osteopathic medical schools are AOA trained and are members of osteopathic professional colleges. However, with the majority of osteopathic grads already entering ACGME residencies (and all after 2020) my hope is that it will only be a matter of time until AOA identity fades, and the US Dept of Education consolidates undergraduate medical education under the LCME.

I find it hypocritical that DO schools are pushing evidence-based medicine while at the same time teaching glorified pseudoscience like Chapman's points and cranial as accepted facts. I sure hope that OMM is phased out of the curriculum or at least remodeled in the years to come. In training, the only thing that distinguishes DO's from MD's is one two hour physical therapy/chiro/massage class a week, not the philosophy of "treating the whole patient" BS. In practice, the two physicians are indistinguishable. Which leads to the point that if the distinguishing feature of DO schools, OMT, has such little empirical evidence, then why should there be a difference at in all in terms of degree? Because the AOA is trying to keep their head above water and protect their brand.

Finally, most osteopathic medical students like myself just want to be good docs, not "osteopaths"-which should be identified as non-physician practitioners to the like of chiros and CAM.

 

[Kevin Baker]

I don't see why DO schools be allowed to convert to bestowing an MD degree. LCME has historically acted as a monopoly and tried to close schools from starting up / reduce class size expansion, in direct opposition to COCA accrediting libertyU and for profit RVU. Maybe LCME would want to take over to stop the expansion of DO schools but they now control residency so who cares? They control supply of licensed physicians. The merger was a brilliant move in that regards.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Talking to a 5th year gen surg resident in a program that recently went from AOA to ACGME, he says the AOA standards are more strict than the ACGME standards. His argument was that the small and "weaker" programs from both sides will close due to the bigger increase in quality programs and people not wanting to go a bad program. So i have never heard anyone argue "a good chunk." The argument of DOs becoming a "primary care" degree is based on the assumption that DO students are inherently inferior to MDs as a whole and they won't do as well as MD students on standardized comparisons. I think there will be bias both ways. The DO ortho programs will probably continue to take DOs, the MDs take MDs, and over time the bias on both sides will dissipate until everything is even. That is my opinion at least.

 

[Mjolner]

I see a true two tier MD school system coming in the next dozen years. I see the merger being the start and the increased number of DOs who wanted MD ideally, but really just wanted to be a doctor that are churned through DO schools these days coupled with those who are sick of explaining what a DO is to everyone not in medicine being the finish line. They will outnumber the old guard significantly by then and can vote in leaders who would merge things together.
Maybe as MD/DO or MDs who can bill OMT.
I also see some of the more beneficial OMT crossing over. This is why as time goes on I see the former DO schools which have had more lax admission standards being viewed as a second tier of MDS schools. Also, I bet they will charge a fortune to switch from DO to MD or MD/DO this time.
The biggest barrier I see are the universities with both MD and DO schools. Although I imagine they will just make them both MD.

Tl;dr I think that Pandora's box has been opened and a full merger is on the way, but not this week so don't buy a bunch of crap with MD after your name just yet.

 

[HotLunch96]

Well considering the majority of the students at my school could care less about OMM class and just want to be physicians, I hope things will be headed in the direction of reforming the emphasis placed on OMT. I can't tell you how many times our OMM professors and even university leadership has made denigrating comments about the other medical schools in our state as being inferior to us DOs because they don't "treat the whole patient" and that a particular school has dumber students. That kind of thinking, along with being required to learn the pseudoscience of Chapman's points and cranial is embarrassing. The whole notion of DOs being better than MDs is just school leadership practicing self-preservation by way of marketing a non-existent difference. Like someone said, the "changing of the guard" will come eventually. I just hope its sooner than later.

 

[Goro]

ALL of the DOs who are Dean level at my school, plus the Chair of the OMT Dep't (and who are all well-sourced into the higher echelons of the AOA) favored the merger and feel that DOs will get more out of it than the MDs.

I suspect that it will benefit both parties, and the only real losers will be IMGs.

I could see a rationale for COMLEX evolving into an exit exam for DO schools, and USMLE being THE licensing exam.

Hello all, just wanted to get a conversation going about the possible future of DOs....

Fact:
- Merger of AOA/ACGME by 2020 and all residency programs must meet initial criteria by 2020 to be valid to continue
- All programs will be either 1. ACGME or 2. ACGME with "osteopathic principles" (all applicants may apply to either type with MDs likely required to pass an initial "test" on "osteopathic principles")

Speculation: With the merger and strict ACGME guidelines....
- No laxity in guidelines likely, many former AOA residency programs will have to adapt, merge, or close yielding a possible 10-40% loss of residency programs that will not be able to qualify
= Loss of AOA subspecialty residencies will greatly reduce specialty trained DOs
= Possibility of DO degree becoming a "primary care" degree when MDs allowed into former AOA specialty programs and DOs still discriminated against in ACGME specialty programs
- ACGME is residency governing body, the next step possibly will be standardized accreditation for medical schools
= This could lead to many DO schools that "qualify" to apply for and offer MD degrees instead of DO
= Many DO schools could close...have heard somewhere in the range of 25-40% of DO schools would currently meet standards
= Erasing of DO degree??? Those who have read history will realize this was attempted many times by the AMA in the last 100 years

Sources for above: 2 AOA residency DMEs, 1 Medical school dean, and http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/Nasca-Community/FAQs.pdf

Overall:
- Loss of a good chunk of AOA residencies?
- Loss of DO specialists going forward?
- Loss of DO schools/stoppage of DO school expansion?
- Loss of new DO degrees being conferred at all after schools either switch to MD granting or close???
- Are these losses "acceptable" to have a standardization of medical schools and residencies across the country?


This is all just for conversation and fun to talk about. I think it would be interesting to hear many sides, especially those who are strong DO supporters and those who wouldn't mind trading in their DO for an MD.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't see why DO schools be allowed to convert to bestowing an MD degree. LCME has historically acted as a monopoly and tried to close schools from starting up / reduce class size expansion, in direct opposition to COCA accrediting libertyU and for profit RVU. Maybe LCME would want to take over to stop the expansion of DO schools but they now control residency so who cares? They control supply of licensed physicians. The merger was a brilliant move in that regards.

Because more LCME schools=more funding, a consolidation of power, total control over the number of medical graduates to ensure that they do not exceed residencies, and a lack of a competing educational system that politicians can use as leverage

It's all money and politics. I would be surprised if DO schools still exist as separate institutions in 50 years, honestly.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Do you guys honestly think that there will be a point where docs can change from DO to MD for a fee?

 

[AMEHigh]

Do you guys honestly think that there will be a point where docs can change from DO to MD for a fee?

What would be the benefit of doing this?

I have heard of zero DOs having a problem with getting a job once they finish residency.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

What would be the benefit of doing this?

I have heard of zero DOs having a problem with getting a job once they finish residency.

I'm just asking. I'm not saying there would or would not be a benefit.

 

[Mjolner]

Do you guys honestly think that there will be a point where docs can change from DO to MD for a fee?

They allowed it in California once.
I think the two will merge completely.
However, if you went DO hoping that you'll be an MD someday...
I feel sorry for you.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

They allowed it in California once.
I think the two will merge completely.
However, if you went DO hoping that you'll be an MD someday...
I feel sorry for you.

...did I say that?

 

[Mjolner]

...did I say that?

Did I say you did?

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Did I say you did?

You're hinting that you think I did simply because I asked a question about it. I want to become a physician. MD/DO who cares? I was just asking a general question. Don't worry about my intentions for attending a D.O. school.

 

[GUH]

Regarding the OP: DO schools are not going anywhere. The degree is here to stay for the foreseeable future. This is not the first time the profession has been under pressure to disappear.

The argument of DOs becoming a "primary care" degree is based on the assumption that DO students are inherently inferior to MDs as a whole and they won't do as well as MD students on standardized comparisons.

No; it's based on the very real and well-documented fact that PDs at most ACGME programs in competitive fields prefer MDs.

I think there will be bias both ways. The DO ortho programs will probably continue to take DOs, the MDs take MDs, and over time the bias on both sides will dissipate until everything is even. That is my opinion at least.

The difference is that there will likely be less DO ortho programs (why go through the hassle of getting osteopathic accreditation?), and even those which have historically been reserved for DOs will be forced to consider MDs, whereas there is no indication or agreement that current ACGME programs will accept more DOs.

 

[GUH]

Do you guys honestly think that there will be a point where docs can change from DO to MD for a fee?

No. Even if it did happen, it would have to be limited and on a voluntary, state-by-state basis.

 

[GUH]

ALL of the DOs who are Dean level at my school, plus the Chair of the OMT Dep't (and who are all well-sourced into the higher echelons of the AOA) favored the merger and feel that DOs will get more out of it than the MDs.

What exactly is in the agreement that makes them say this (other than a potential single match)? Honest question. I can't find an official signed document listing out all of the terms of the GME takeover, only summaries.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

What exactly is in the agreement that makes them say this (other than a potential single match)? Honest question. I can't find an official signed document listing out all of the terms of the GME takeover, only summaries.

Re: unified match -- We were told the other day (by a higher-up in our residency system [MSUCOM SCS]) that there will be a single match by 2018. Whether or not this is totally true... I don't know. But it sure sounds to be going that way.

 

[user3]

Re: unified match -- We were told the other day (by a higher-up in our residency system [MSUCOM SCS]) that there will be a single match by 2018. Whether or not this is totally true... I don't know. But it sure sounds to be going that way.

wow...I hope that isn't just a rumor.

 

[karling]

Forgive me if this is just a stupid premed question, but if all programs are ACGME by 2020, then is there another solution besides a single match? If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised if a single match took place a year or two earlier, with the few remaining AOA sites thrown in the mix, rather than have a tiny separate AOA match.

 

[AMEHigh]

I'm just asking. I'm not saying there would or would not be a benefit.

Oh ok got it.

And anecdotally...I'm on another (non medical) forum and at least a few times per year they starting talking about health care and someone mentions DOs. Multiple posters mention how they prefer/seek out DOs when looking for physicians because they've had good experiences with them and their bedside manner.

Obviously not all DOs have great bedside manner and you can be a great doctor with either letters after your name, but being a DO doesn't seem to have any at all disadvantages once you finish residency.

 

[Goro]

Pooled resources and no more duplication of effort.

And, squeeze out the IMGs.

What exactly is in the agreement that makes them say this (other than a potential single match)? Honest question. I can't find an official signed document listing out all of the terms of the GME takeover, only summaries.

 

[Oo Cipher oO]

The military has had a combined match for MDs and DOs for decades now. If we use that as a template for how things might change as we move forward with the residency unification here are some possible outcomes.

-more acceptance of the COMLEX for most residencies as more program directors become familiar with it
-USMLE highly recommended for most competitive specialties
-reputation and percieved strength of school still a factor in application
- more DO ACGME program directors
-less general bias against DOs and more focus on other aspects of application

 

[kp11]

I agree with Gordo, and I still cannot fathom the benefit of allowing IGM's to participate in the match.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

I agree with Gordo, and I still cannot fathom the benefit of allowing IGM's to participate in the match.

What does IGM stand for? International something something...

 

[the argus]

I agree with Gordo, and I still cannot fathom the benefit of allowing IGM's to participate in the match.

How about the benefit of actually having enough residents to staff the hospitals. What about that is so hard to fathom?

This year ~6300 IMGs matched through the NRMP and ~600 categorical DO spots went unfilled. That is 6,500-7,000 categorical PGY 1 positions that the US medical education system (MD +DO) does not produce graduates for. That number will gradually decrease over the foreseeable future, but there will still be 1000s of PGY1 positions unfilled by AMGs by 2020.

And this doesn't even take into account the increase in residency positions that will have to happen in the coming years if the US healthcare system isn't going to become completely overwhelmed.

IMGs have been a part of the US healthcare system for the past 50 years, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

 

[Mjolner]

What does IGM stand for? International something something...

He meant IMG=international medical graduate

 

[235009]

Pooled resources and no more duplication of effort.

And, squeeze out the IMGs.

So what you're saying is that you and your colleagues are living in a fantasy world where corporations with a monetary incentive to maintain the status quo will decide to do something that goes against their best interest for the sake of efficiency and the benefit of the public.

Why does the SDN community continue to take this guy seriously?!


Oh and we get it, you REALLY hate IMGs because they're taking ACGME spots from DOs. It's one thing to advise pre-meds to stay away from the Caribbean schools but it's another to constantly fantasize about their downfall. Give it a rest already.

 

[Goro]

Says the bitter IMG grad.

Hear that sound????

It's that bus coming....no more subsidized cash for Carib diploma mills praying on gullible desperate American students.

So what you're saying is that you and your colleagues are living in a fantasy world where corporations with a monetary incentive to maintain the status quo will decide to do something that goes against their best interest for the sake of efficiency and the benefit of the public.

Why does the SDN community continue to take this guy seriously?!


Oh and we get it, you REALLY hate IMGs because they're taking ACGME spots from DOs. It's one thing to advise pre-meds to stay away from the Caribbean schools but it's another to constantly fantasize about their downfall. Give it a rest already.

 

[Mad Jack]

So what you're saying is that you and your colleagues are living in a fantasy world where corporations with a monetary incentive to maintain the status quo will decide to do something that goes against their best interest for the sake of efficiency and the benefit of the public.

Why does the SDN community continue to take this guy seriously?!


Oh and we get it, you REALLY hate IMGs because they're taking ACGME spots from DOs. It's one thing to advise pre-meds to stay away from the Caribbean schools but it's another to constantly fantasize about their downfall. Give it a rest already.

I find a guy that constantly hates on DOs complaining about a DO adcom that's hating on IMGs to be kind of ironic.

There is a pretty good reason to consolidate medical education as much as possible though- it's inefficient right now. The grabbing of DO residencies will ensure that all the ones that previously went unfilled will likely either close or end up filled by foreign grads once they're ACGME accredited. That's just good for everyone all around, except for DOs that weren't matching before, who will lose the option to scramble into the piles of open spots that were previously available. One match and one residency system would be nice. One accreditation system would also be a bonus, but that will probably never happen because everyone's protecting their own interests.

 

[235009]

Says the bitter IMG grad.

Hear that sound????

It's that bus coming....no more subsidized cash for Carib diploma mills praying on gullible desperate American students.

Dude as I told you countless times I'm a US MD. You can look through my posting history you'll see that I occasionally post in my med school's application thread. On top of that I'm at one of many programs that does not consider DOs or IMGs so I have nothing to be "bitter" about. If you keep calling me an IMG it won't make it true just like if you keep passing off fantasy and wishful thinking as truth it doesn't all of a sudden make it true.

I find a guy that constantly hates on DOs complaining about a DO adcom that's hating on IMGs to be kind of ironic.

There is a pretty good reason to consolidate medical education as much as possible though- it's inefficient right now. The grabbing of DO residencies will ensure that all the ones that previously went unfilled will likely either close or end up filled by foreign grads once they're ACGME accredited. That's just good for everyone all around, except for DOs that weren't matching before, who will lose the option to scramble into the piles of open spots that were previously available. One match and one residency system would be nice. One accreditation system would also be a bonus, but that will probably never happen because everyone's protecting their own interests.

You're right one match and one residency accreditation system WOULD be nice but we can't pass off what we're hoping will happen as truth or inevitable like @Goro is doing. We have no idea whether a unified match will happen at this point let alone what the impact of the merger in its current form will be. Yet @Goro is here daily insisting that the match will be combined and the merger will be great for DOs and IMGs will be begging for scraps. It's fine to speculate like everyone else but he uses his title to pass off misinformation as fact and gets a pass for it from the all these pre-meds who have been taught to never question authority…especially one who's at a *med school*.

Also I'm not "hating" on anyone. Just providing a dose of reality that happens to go against the cheerleading and groupthink of sdn. I'm sorry the truth is a bit unsavory for some but life is unfair and always has been. You don't get a clean slate when you go to DO school (I think someone literally said you do in another thread) and applicants need to know that before they invest hundreds of thousands of dollars. I have nothing to gain or lose from any of this (unlike someone who has a vested interest in improving how DOs are perceived). I just don't want to see people making huge life-altering decisions based on misinformation from a special interest.

 

[Mad Jack]

Dude as I told you countless times I'm a US MD. You can look through my posting history you'll see that I occasionally post in my med school's application thread. On top of that I'm at one of many programs that does not consider DOs or IMGs so I have nothing to be "bitter" about. If you keep calling me an IMG it won't make it true just like if you keep passing off fantasy and wishful thinking as truth it doesn't all of a sudden make it true.



You're right one match and one residency accreditation system WOULD be nice but we can't pass off what we're hoping will happen as truth or inevitable like @Goro is doing. We have no idea whether a unified match will happen at this point let alone what the impact of the merger in its current form will be. Yet @Goro is here daily insisting that the match will be combined and the merger will be great for DOs and IMGs will be begging for scraps. It's fine to speculate like everyone else but he uses his title to pass off misinformation as fact and gets a pass for it from the all these pre-meds who have been taught to never question authority…especially one who's at a *med school*.

Also I'm not "hating" on anyone. Just providing a dose of reality that happens to go against the cheerleading and groupthink of sdn. I'm sorry the truth is a bit unsavory for some but life is unfair and always has been. You don't get a clean slate when you go to DO school (I think someone literally said you do in another thread) and applicants need to know that before they invest hundreds of thousands of dollars. I have nothing to gain or lose from any of this (unlike someone who has a vested interest in improving how DOs are perceived). I just don't want to see people making huge life-altering decisions based on misinformation from a special interest.

Fair enough. Though there's already been some letters sent out from the DO leadership in regard to a unified match, as there will be literally no reason for an ACGME-accredited program to not participate in the NRMP match, so they're just trying to realistically plan for the future. A Match merger has to happen, for the same reason that this whole residency merger has to kill the DO specialty boats in the end, and that reason is simple- programs and residents would rather go with the service that has wider options and recognition, given the chance, so the market will kill the DO match and the DO boats as programs scramble to fill and obtain better applicants and applicants choose the larger, better recognized boats that have more political clout for certification.

The "realistic" timetable we've been given on a Match merger from the higher ups is between 2016 and 2022, but knowing the nature of those in charge to drag their feet, I'm pegging it 2020-2022.

 

[SurgeDO]

unified match by 2017.

DO degree will be dead in less than 10 years. all current DOs will have the option of being grandfathered into MD world.

tears will be shed by the money grabbing crooks of the AOA, COCA, and DO school administrators, and it will be beautiful.

you heard it here first.

 

[moonwake]

So just curious about IMGs (besides most carribean schools), are a lot of IMG grads applying for US citizenship at the same time? I mean, I know a lot are US citizens going to IMG schools because they didn't cut it for MD/DO- but just wondering if anyone has any stats on what % aren't citizens already coming from IMGs.

 

[moonwake]

IMG = US citizen getting medical degree abroad

FMG = Non-US citizen who went to medical school abroad.

Charting outcomes and the match results gives numbers for both. It's about 5000 IMGs and 7000 FMGs

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

So.... 5133 = DO/MD and IMG?

7344 = FMG? and international students going to school in the US?

Kind of confusing as to what the blue and pink represent.

 

[the argus]

View attachment 191174

So.... 5133 = DO/MD and IMG?

7344 = FMG? and international students going to school in the US?

Kind of confusing as to what the blue and pink represent.

No!

5133 is US citizens going to medical school abroad (largely caribbean schools, but also India, Pakistan, Ireland, Australia, etc)

7344 is non-US citizens going to medical school outside US

2738 is anyone (US citizen or not) going to DO school

17374 is anyone (US citizen or not) going to US allopathic school

 

[GUH]

unified match by 2017.

DO degree will be dead in less than 10 years. all current DOs will have the option of being grandfathered into MD world.

tears will be shed by the money grabbing crooks of the AOA, COCA, and DO school administrators, and it will be beautiful.

you heard it here first.

I'll take you up on the 2017 bet. That way, I'll either win the bet or I'll have a unified match. 🙂

I would take you up on the 10 years but I think SDN will be dead long before the DO degree.


Oh, and if you think that the allopathic side is any better in terms of money-grabbing, think again. Read up on what's been happening with the ABIM.

 

[moonwake]

No!

5133 is US citizens going to medical school abroad (largely caribbean schools, but also India, Pakistan, Ireland, Australia, etc)

7344 is non-US citizens going to medical school outside US

2738 is anyone (US citizen or not) going to DO school

17374 is anyone (US citizen or not) going to US allopathic school

Thanks, I understood most of the graph I just thought that since it said graduates of International Medical schools in both the pink and the blue and used a slash that it was splitting the group (saying the pink represented IMGs and something else) instead of just representing IMG.

Thanks for the clarificationnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

EDIT: Wow... so many IMG/FMGs.... way outnumber DOs.... not that I'm pushing DO or anything but when you compare the education they receive that can be a problem (ignorance is bliss I guess)

 

[NurWollen]

Dude as I told you countless times I'm a US MD. You can look through my posting history you'll see that I occasionally post in my med school's application thread. On top of that I'm at one of many programs that does not consider DOs or IMGs so I have nothing to be "bitter" about. If you keep calling me an IMG it won't make it true just like if you keep passing off fantasy and wishful thinking as truth it doesn't all of a sudden make it true.

A fact you that makes you smile with satisfaction every time you look in a mirror, no doubt.

 

[SurgeDO]

I'll take you up on the 2017 bet. That way, I'll either win the bet or I'll have a unified match. 🙂

I would take you up on the 10 years but I think SDN will be dead long before the DO degree.


Oh, and if you think that the allopathic side is any better in terms of money-grabbing, think again. Read up on what's been happening with the ABIM.

i know. i hate both sides.

 

[hallowmann]

How about the benefit of actually having enough residents to staff the hospitals. What about that is so hard to fathom?

This year ~6300 IMGs matched through the NRMP and ~600 categorical DO spots went unfilled...

That's actually incorrect. 600 categorical went unfilled in the match, not unfilled in general (remember that the AOA match doesn't have the SOAP, so many unmatched students fill those positions long before July 1st by scrambling).

In terms of how many went unfilled, that number is only around 100-150, which includes pre-lim (i.e. TRI) and categorical spots (categorical is probably only 50-75). So I guess yes, we could add a hundred or so IMGs with the merger, but DO expansion will eliminate that surplus before the merger occurs (barring residency expansion).

Personally, I don't think there is any incentive for the GME programs, medical associations, etc. to exclude IMGs. It only really benefits struggling US students and US medical schools. So basically, I agree with you in that I think IMGs should fill the excess spots.

...You're right one match and one residency accreditation system WOULD be nice but we can't pass off what we're hoping will happen as truth or inevitable like @Goro is doing...

You're kind of ignoring the part where its cheaper and beneficial for a lot of programs (and students/medical schools) to have a unified match. Not only can dual-accredited programs not have to worry about paying into 2 matching services, they also don't have to worry about doing twice the paperwork. In addition, all programs get access to a bunch more applicants (on the order of 10% more) which inevitably is beneficial for them in choosing the best fit resident (I have yet to hear a PD say he wishes he had less applicants).

It may be true that sometimes we look at what should happen in terms of best system, and ignore what will likely happen given the motives of the parties involved, but in this case, those two things overlap, just for different reasons.

 

[235009]

You're kind of ignoring the part where its cheaper and beneficial for a lot of programs (and students/medical schools) to have a unified match. Not only can dual-accredited programs not have to worry about paying into 2 matching services, they also don't have to worry about doing twice the paperwork. In addition, all programs get access to a bunch more applicants (on the order of 10% more) which inevitably is beneficial for them in choosing the best fit resident (I have yet to hear a PD say he wishes he had less applicants).

It may be true that sometimes we look at what should happen in terms of best system, and ignore what will likely happen given the motives of the parties involved, but in this case, those two things overlap, just for different reasons.

You misunderstood. I'm not saying the residency programs or med school's will be the ones standing in the way of this. As you said they'd likely all profit. The NRMP will also profit (more applicants = more $$$). The osteopathic matching service on the other hand (the NMS) would be put out of business and they likely won't go down without a fight.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

You misunderstood. I'm not saying the residency programs or med school's will be the ones standing in the way of this. As you said they'd likely all profit. The NRMP will also profit (more applicants = more $$$). The osteopathic matching service on the other hand (the NMS) would be put out of business and they likely won't go down without a fight.

I could agree with this. Just looking at the leadership trends of the AOA for the last few years, it seems like there is a minority of altruistic physicians who are trying to really do what is best for DOs and med school grads. But this group seems overshadowed by a larger group who tend to do things that, on paper, seem to either be for their own benefit (ie prestige, uniqueness, whatever you want to call it) or for financial reasons.

 

[hallowmann]

You misunderstood. I'm not saying the residency programs or med school's will be the ones standing in the way of this. As you said they'd likely all profit. The NRMP will also profit (more applicants = more $$$). The osteopathic matching service on the other hand (the NMS) would be put out of business and they likely won't go down without a fight.

Fair enough, I'm sure the NMS would not like to lose the AOA match, although they do have other matches (psychology internships, pharmacy, optometry, dental residencies, etc.).

I think NMS contracts with the AOA last only 5 years though, and assuming the latest one was renewed in 2014 (probably 2013 at the start of the cycle), the latest it should end is some time around the 2018 match. I don't think there will really be any problems with a combined match happening.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Fair enough, I'm sure the NMS would not like to lose the AOA match, although they do have other matches (psychology internships, pharmacy, optometry, dental residencies, etc.).

I think NMS contracts with the AOA last only 5 years though, and assuming the earliest one was renewed in 2014 (probably 2013 at the start of the cycle), the latest it should end is some time around the 2018 match. I don't think there will really be any problems with a combined match happening.

Yeah, one of the people from our AOA OPTI made it sound pretty definite that the match would not be combined for 2017 but almost surely would be by 2018. The contract renewal would make sense for that timeline.

I just wish they had presented hard data to back up their assertions...