D
Forum Members Official: Job Offer Thread
- Thread starter DexterMorganSK
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2008
- Messages
- 3,376
- Reaction score
- 4,513
I think you should PM me the name of the practice so I can post it and shame them publicly without you having to do it since you just interviewed…
Or just post it yourself because there is no way you should take that job and that’s the type of job/person who will have no ability to influence your life or career even after calling them out on a message board they probably don’t know exists.
This is typical. It’s probably in an area really saturated with pods.
No need to burn bridges. But you have to understand that we are talking about PP.
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2018
- Messages
- 574
- Reaction score
- 1,007
True. Even if you negotiate from $85k and they agree to hire for $95k or $100k . It is still crap.
I think the goal of starting at $85k is they know everyone will negotiate. Won't be surprised if they already have $100k base in mind. Just using the $85k as a starting point.
newpodgrad
Full Member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2022
- Messages
- 41
- Reaction score
- 16
I was told that being a first year associate is a loss for a company because they aren’t making any money on u. That’s why pay is low. They’re investing in u until you’re able to produce and then hopefully in 2-3 years the company can profit off of you . ..hence why that offer is low.
It’s still shocking to me tho.
The lack of retirement I think bothers me more than the low pay. Especially in these early career years for me. Oh on top of that, it’s a w2 so it’s not like I’m a “contractor” and can open up my own solo 401ks etc.
:/
It’s still shocking to me tho.
The lack of retirement I think bothers me more than the low pay. Especially in these early career years for me. Oh on top of that, it’s a w2 so it’s not like I’m a “contractor” and can open up my own solo 401ks etc.
:/
The practice not making a profit is not a realistic reason for low pay. If they had the balls to tell you that you should have promptly told them to take the offer and shove it.
They are the business owner. They need to shoulder the risk as they are the ones who stand to gain the rewards when there is profit. Giving you low pay on the front end makes you shoulder the risk by ensuring a healthy profit margin from day one essentially negating risk and optimizing reward at your expense. If that is how they want to run a business, they deserve to be shamed.
If you start a business and build a new office you do not pay the tradesmen less because the office is going to take a while to turn a profit.
As an w-2 employee you should be offered all the benefits without care of profitability (with exception of hitting bonus thresholds).
newpodgrad
Full Member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2022
- Messages
- 41
- Reaction score
- 16
There were other “benefits” like oh you’ll get all your board cases no problem . You’ll learn how to run a business blah blah. Was also told that since “malpractice” is covered, that is considered part of the “package”, since they’re footing the bill. So if the salary is 85k and malpractice is 10k, the package is actually worth 95k (not sure how much malpractice is in just using 10 for easy math)
That to me just seems like it should be part of any associateship.
But just a flat salary for a indefinite amount of time, plus no 401, IRÁ is shocking.
D
deleted1097413
travel RNs can make $4,000+ a week right now working 36 hours. You’re a surgeon who went through 4 years of undergrad and then 7 years of pod school/residency after that.
People offering $85,000 jobs need to be publicly shamed.
People offering $85,000 jobs need to be publicly shamed.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2008
- Messages
- 3,376
- Reaction score
- 4,513
Guarantee it’s a claims made policy which means it’s only gonna cost a couple of thousand dollars your first year. Regardless, you are a W2 “employee” which means your employer has to cover whatever expenses it takes for you to do your job. You can’t work without malpractice, it isn’t a benefit, it’s required just for you to be their employee.
It would be like Walmart telling their janitors that they are basically making $20/hr and not the actual $15/hr they’re getting paid because Walmart buys the mops and chemicals required for the janitor to do their job.
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2011
- Messages
- 2,736
- Reaction score
- 6,186
If they are losing money on you its because they don't actually have the business to hire you. (they aren't losing money on you, they are lying)
-As dtrack indicated above - claims made policies in a first year don't cost anything. The price increases with time, but low dollar value plans border on nothing.
-A health insurance plan purchased through the local chamber of commerce with $3K deductible, 20% coinsurance is like $300ish a month premium.
-ACFAS dues and what not are in the hundreds a year.
-Licensing is a few hundred a year
If someone really believes they will lose money on you they have no patients/no business hiring. Depending on what benefits we include/how we classify things most podiatry practices are not even touching $20K in benefits.
Small thing on 401ks in case they say they can't figure out how they'd pay you
The total percentage of collections owed due to 401k can be calculated if the collections percentage is known.
Consider - 40% with a 4% 401k. 40% x 4% = 0.016
Therefore paying an employee 40% with a 4% 401K match means you actually owe them 41.6%.
If you really are supposed to buy in with this year of free blood and sweat then your future collections percentage should be great and your buy in should be nothing. They won't be.
The big thing is. Stop being surprised. Treat it like speed dating. Treat it like a video game that requires a lot of grinding against a bad RNG. Just keep getting offers and moving on. Don't be hurt. Don't be excited. Don't "I know this is the one".
-As dtrack indicated above - claims made policies in a first year don't cost anything. The price increases with time, but low dollar value plans border on nothing.
-A health insurance plan purchased through the local chamber of commerce with $3K deductible, 20% coinsurance is like $300ish a month premium.
-ACFAS dues and what not are in the hundreds a year.
-Licensing is a few hundred a year
If someone really believes they will lose money on you they have no patients/no business hiring. Depending on what benefits we include/how we classify things most podiatry practices are not even touching $20K in benefits.
Small thing on 401ks in case they say they can't figure out how they'd pay you
The total percentage of collections owed due to 401k can be calculated if the collections percentage is known.
Consider - 40% with a 4% 401k. 40% x 4% = 0.016
Therefore paying an employee 40% with a 4% 401K match means you actually owe them 41.6%.
If you really are supposed to buy in with this year of free blood and sweat then your future collections percentage should be great and your buy in should be nothing. They won't be.
The big thing is. Stop being surprised. Treat it like speed dating. Treat it like a video game that requires a lot of grinding against a bad RNG. Just keep getting offers and moving on. Don't be hurt. Don't be excited. Don't "I know this is the one".
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2022
- Messages
- 987
- Reaction score
- 1,771
I think if an employer can not pay a respectable wage they should not even seek an associate. If they are honest about the pay that is better than being deceptive.
The real problem is supply and demand. Until there a few jobs that pay 200K with benefits that go unfilled in desirable locations new graduates will continue to have the have same problems the profession has had for a long time. If you have those kind of jobs those type other jobs disappear.
When residencies were optional it was
perhaps not as bad, but 3 year residencies and 85K jobs is one reason why it hard not to at least caution future students the truth about the profession that is not in the glossy brochures.
The real problem is supply and demand. Until there a few jobs that pay 200K with benefits that go unfilled in desirable locations new graduates will continue to have the have same problems the profession has had for a long time. If you have those kind of jobs those type other jobs disappear.
When residencies were optional it was
perhaps not as bad, but 3 year residencies and 85K jobs is one reason why it hard not to at least caution future students the truth about the profession that is not in the glossy brochures.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Messages
- 4,117
- Reaction score
- 4,421
Precisely.
Some job offers are low since the owner doc is just way out of touch with what compensation is or has never had an associate. Others are low since it's a saturated/desirable area, so they will find a local doc/resident who will take it. Others are low because they are a low life. Some are totally made up on SDN or in rumors and who knows why? Others are reasonable. Others are good (usually because they want someone well-trained or it's a tough area to recruit/retain).
It is almost certainly NOT true that they lose money the first year as a whole (unless they don't have enough patients and/or the associate produces very little or takes a ton of time off). Any practice hiring should have enough patient volume to profit from the associate. That said, they still have many legit concerns, esp with hires fresh out of residency:
-does this associate know anything about billing and coding... profitable quick treatments for common pod issues, or willl they need 'babysitting'?
-will they be a personality fit with the patients and the staff? friendly? confident? professional? not creepy? not sloppy? (can't be taken for granted)
-will they show up? on time? stay on schedule? keep up on notes and billing? (happens a ton that they DON'T do any/all of that)
-will they be efficient and productive in $ terms? Will they take an hour to see new patients and not even offer them a procedure/DME... or worse, do proc/DME that clearly needed a prior auth and won't get paid? (happens a LOT with new grads)
The 'speed dating' analogy is a great way to look at the job search. Some jobs are no way (crap office, not enough pts, $ is bad, etc), some are fair, some are good fit at first sight.. so explore those further and shadow the doc(s) at work as much as you can. I always took the approach of figuring out if I liked the office, pt/refer mix, doc(s), location, etc... then seeing if the money made sense at the end of the interaction/visit. I also think it's 100% pointless to talk money on phone/email if you've never set foot in the office and seen it in action during clinic. A lot of young - and not so young - DPMs take what I think are horrible jobs since they like the location (hometown, etc) or the money (esp base) was the best they'd seen or their partner had a job/training in that area and they had to take whatever they could get... but knowing or over-valuing those things up front will take away your ability to look objectively at the whole picture. Some people even take jobs sight unseen (zoom interview, visit on a day office is closed, etc) or take a loan to buy a house without working a day on the job... again, crazy to me, but people do it.
As for the collections and the math, an office should lose for probably 6mo max on a new associate (assume they pay them ~$150k of base+benefits for easy math, so 12.5k/mo or 625/day per 20d/month... and any bonus won't kick in until that's covered). Now, an associate gross can bring in roughly:
-150/day in first month (no collections in yet besides some copays and maybe a bit of OTC on 5-10pts/day)
-250/day in second month (trickle collections from 1st month, a few more copays + OTC since 10pt/day)
-350/day in third month (now they are starting to get some payments in from services done 1st and 2nd months, plus more copays at maybe 10-15pt/day)
-1200-1500+/day month 4 and on (now with 15pt/day $100/visit, they will cover their $625/d of base+benefits even if overhead was 55-60%... eventually they gross a lot more and should get bonus if they can increase their pt load and/or per pt $ further)
...in reality the "break even" is more likely to be around 6mo mark since the owner/hiring DPM will count one-time expenses like hospitals, PHOs, malprac, dues, uniforms, licensing, organizations, etc as happening at the beginning and not per month (as they probably should view it). they also have to offset the heavy losses in the first couple months (although those are also offset in months after whatever time the doc leaves with straggler collections $ that keep arriving). Either way, 4-6mo is the tip point in most contracts (or at least it should be) unless the office is not busy enough to hire or the associate totally sucks. Offices with better payers or more patient volume (should) pay more, others will try to pay less. It sometimes gets back to that owner's choice on creating setup of minimal staff/services and lower pt volumes/collections... vs higher staff/overhead and higher volume/collections.
The initial loss on a hire comes even for big group + exp doc hire, though... I would assume my current group lost money on me for about 3+ months even though we both held our end: they had plenty of patients, I saw 10+ from day 1, marketed myself and met PCPs, trained staff to improve efficiency, and grew rapidly to 15-20+ per day with good payers, started doing surgery asap. Even if it all works out, the employer always has a risk just due to the inevitable lag on collections and the lag until I'm doing surgery and full services... and any sign/relocate bonus they may give. You have to understand on how the risk is very high on a new grad, even with the best interview day or from the most proven program. My first or second job likely lost money on me for many months (4-6mo+). Anyone can talk the talk. Saying how you are going to do a lot of surgery or take call or do complex stuff helps patients yet matters little to PP (since that doesn't generate much income for them); they want to hear more of how you can manage patient flow, code well (or at least will study hard to learn asap), offer procedures and DME, and mainly how you are likable to patients and staff. Then, you get to prove you can do exactly that. GL
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2019
- Messages
- 0
- Reaction score
- -21
Stay away from upperline health. They offered 160k salary and no bonus until after 600k gross earned. It’s a complete scam. It’s run by former APMA presidents and guys who have joined forces and figured out a new way to milk money from new associates. They are all partners who share the profits while the associates they recruit kill themselves.
They market themselves as an entity who will create clinics for you and do your marketing which might seem nice but they are doing it to make it easier for you to make a ton of money for them that you are not getting a piece of.
Welcome to podiatry. It will be the worst career decision you will ever make.
160k salary? I have seen an offer from there. It’s 30% based off productions. No bonus whatsoever. Don’t just stay away, RUN away.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Messages
- 4,117
- Reaction score
- 4,421
Wow, indeed. Perhaps take your BMW over to the Equinox gym, and then take a peek at your retirement account balances during your nice restaurant dinner on your way back home to your suburban living quarters, which is only a bit larger than many worldwide families of 6 or 8 enjoy. You can punch in the security code and talk to the smart home system as you ponder how it all went wrong and that your car should be newer, home should be fancier, index funds should be higher priced, and that the new state-of-the-art fly fishing pole and BBQ smoker you ordered didn't arrive in 3 days like they should have. Also marinate on what sunny trail or live show or farmer market or other random fun you will do tomorrow... and what surgery you get to (sorry, 'have to') do next week? I bet that usually works for you in the past as at least a temporary suicide preventative.
I will do the same... eek by and focus on what might have been.
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2009
- Messages
- 1,226
- Reaction score
- 1,990
I’ll bet the nurse anesthetists lurking this forum be like...
Wow, indeed. Perhaps take your BMW over to the Equinox gym, and then take a peek at your retirement account balances during your nice restaurant dinner on your way back home to your suburban living quarters, which is only a bit larger than many worldwide families of 6 or 8 enjoy. You can punch in the security code and talk to the smart home system as you ponder how it all went wrong and that your car should be newer, home should be fancier, index funds should be higher priced, and that the new state-of-the-art fly fishing pole and BBQ smoker you ordered didn't arrive in 3 days like they should have. Also marinate on what sunny trail or live show or farmer market or other random fun you will do tomorrow... and what surgery you get to (sorry, 'have to') do next week? I bet that usually works for you in the past as at least a temporary suicide preventative.
I will do the same... eek by and focus on what might have been.
Mama, I just witnessed a murder. All good points and some good introspection for those disgruntled days.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2008
- Messages
- 3,376
- Reaction score
- 4,513
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2008
- Messages
- 3,376
- Reaction score
- 4,513
Came across an interesting associate contract/set up. I’ll post it when I have more details and then at some point it will get published and I’ll link it. Then you can be my neighbor. Fun times.
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2018
- Messages
- 574
- Reaction score
- 1,007
I don't know of any podiatry group offering $160 base salary so we can say this is generous. And with a guaranteed $160k base. One can live off that and not bother about hitting the bonus. Do your 8-5 and a few cases here and there. No need to work too hard. Enjoy the base, take full vacation for the year and take all the holidays off. Also make sure to use up all your sick days if any.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 1,362
- Reaction score
- 2,944
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2018
- Messages
- 574
- Reaction score
- 1,007
You mean load it up with medicaid and state insurance that pays peanuts. I can easily load of schedule up to 40-50 a day if I open the flood gates of medicaid and the rest. But I am happy seeing about15 a day with all private insurance and on a typical day, half of my patients are new patients. I like my schedule open and easily schedule new patients same week.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2019
- Messages
- 0
- Reaction score
- -21
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2018
- Messages
- 574
- Reaction score
- 1,007
True. Can't argue that.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Messages
- 4,117
- Reaction score
- 4,421
^^^1000%...
Like I've said before, if anyone working full-time is not having the very attainable opportunity of making 200k+ after a couple years in private practice (any setup: owner, associate, partner), then you are doing something wrong. Yes, there will be some fresh-out associates who make less, and the economics of that new grad hire are what they are, and some areas are totally saturated and dog-eat-dog with almost infinite supply of residents who want to stay there. But after that first couple years, it's "you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate." Private hospital jobs nearly all should be starting above that 200 mark just with base (but you will typically pay for it in call, rounding, and crappier bonus structure than a PP). A few govt hosp jobs or other straight salary jobs will stall out around/below that 200k figure based on locality and you won't get higher until seniority - if ever, but that is just how it is and the contract one signed (but are ok since norm is they typically see only a fraction of the pts PP docs due to no bonus structure).
Regardless of situation, for PP (pod, ortho, or MSG), if you have a bit of exp in PP and are not hitting 200k between base + bonus, you should definitely be looking for something else. It can only mean one of two things: your contact sucks... or your group mgmt/marketing sucks. It is time to get the CV out there and visit some opportunities. The rare exceptions are where it actually is totally the DPM employee's fault since they take a lot of days off, block the schedule, limit clinic hours, do little/no surgery, never do any marketing/networking, etc and they are doing that knowing they're cool with making less in a trade for lower hours/wk... but they can't say they don't have the opportunity to do better on income. Those people are usually wise to stand pat since another PP employer might not be as keen once they realize they are paying full base/dues/benefits to an essentially part-time DPM. Jobs are always a conflict of interests situation of employer paying as little as they can for as much work as they can get while employees do as little work for as much money as they can get, but the smart employers will incentivize and motivate the employees well.
I was teasing JoT since he routinely comments "decent contract/job... I'd probably consider it if I didn't make more already" on stuff. There are a LOT of good podiatry jobs out there (and "foot and ankle surgeon" ones, if you're more into that). One large DPM group of mainly my program's alumni (was getting medium size when I trained, and I think it's the biggest pod group in Mich now) has had the same DPM associate-to-partners for years and years - many with the group much more than a decade. New docs they added when I was in training and have added since nearly all stay for years and years. They must be doing something right; their docs are nearly all well-trained and would have other options. Other various DPM groups coast to coast - small and large - are similar. The jobs are out there. I also know of multiple med/large pod groups in Chicago area, TX, Fla, my present group, and many others where I've seen the contracts sent to me (which can't be too dissimilar to their many other employed DPMs), and they are pretty solid. How do these areas - mostly high DPM density metros - have very decent and even solid offers? I went out and found them... created them.. at meetings, in my network, friends/classmates/attendings/co-residents/etc.
We love to perpetuate that DPM groups are not even worth working with since some contracts are not worth the paper they're printed on, but many DPM groups absolutely are well-run and highly profitable (better than MSG or hospital in my eyes). That is not even to mention all of the hospital jobs for people who prefer strong benefits pkg or cases for ABFAS and don't mind a little more call and admin stuff to deal with. At the end of the day, the best jobs aren't advertised. All of the jobs I mentioned above were offered to me over the years since I inquired cold by calling and telling the office mgr I had a license there and wanted to know of opportunities and send my CV, or they were text/email/call from the groups (to which I had connection of some sort) trying to find someone they knew was good before they might go on to post the job on general listings (I don't think any posted since the offers were solid). This is why it pays to get good training: there is a training gap in our profession and an inherent mistrust that goes with it. You will have a lot more doors open if you do good training and/or board qual/cert; networking can overcome or bolster that to some degree, but ideally you want both. In picking up girls, it's looks+assets+game (have two, preferably all three)... in jobs, the analogous traits would be training+network+confidence.
For every typical "new grad" 100k + 25% bonus with skimpy benefits podiatry offer we read about, there are many good offers which were privately sent and signed also. Again, I think the speed dating comparison is awesome... don't waste time grumbling "job market sucks" and analyzing or negotiating the joke offers... use that time constructive and go create more options. As airbud likes to say, quit tooling around in APMA or podiatryexchange "associate wanted" classifieds (where it's a employers' market and you will usually have to negotiate hard just to get anything worth consideration) and simply get on the phone with hospitals, groups, friends, etc to create jobs. Make your own luck.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 1,362
- Reaction score
- 2,944
Many DPM groups are highly profitable, but the associate will rarely reap the benefits of this. I would even venture to say that the groups that pay an associate $200k+ (while seeing 400 patients per month) are few and far between.
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2015
- Messages
- 911
- Reaction score
- 1,537
As soon as you know they had any position with the APMA, it’s time to stop listening.
They are all a bunch of self serving douches who have no interest in anything other than reaching into your pockets.
My friend’s son in a 3rd year pharmacy student and was giving COVID vaccines. But I’ve given thousands and thousands of injections, but I’m not allowed to give the vaccine (whether I wanted to or not is not the point).
So you can thank the APMA for all they do. Instead of advancing the profession, they’re too busy giving the “seal of acceptance” (which makes them big bucks) to sketchers.
The only brand I actively tell patients NOT to buy.
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2011
- Messages
- 2,736
- Reaction score
- 6,186
Sketchers. The Official Shoe worn by patients 3+ visits in for plantar fasciitis who still haven't gotten any better.
Me: I really think you would benefit from a shoe that is not a Sketcher.
Patient: But this Sketcher looks like a Hoka.
Me: I really think you would benefit from a shoe that is not a Sketcher.
Patient: But this Sketcher looks like a Hoka.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Messages
- 4,117
- Reaction score
- 4,421
This may be true, but here are plenty of DPM PP groups out there paying fair. An even higher % of MSG and ortho pay fairly.
The reason the good paying PPs do it is not because they're super nice to their associates or naive to what avg pay in the area is. They simply want to attract fair-to-good associates, they want a good rep from prior associates, and they want to keep most of the productive ones instead of the revolving door that will cost them money and practice rep. They know it costs to hire, and more important, having an unskilled or unlikable doc will not generate much and may lose them a lot of marketing progress and refer progress (even if they recognize it pretty quick).
Another thing not to take for granted is that 400pt visits per month (20/day avg) is not something everyone will do or do well. A lot of ppl are taking a half day or a whole day for OR each week... sometimes legit, often not. I am amazed how many docs don't want to do any office after one or two (or zero) morning cases on their "surgery day" or "wound care day." Others want to start at 9am or later and/or end at 3pm or earlier (either alone isn't bad, but both makes it hard to get any real volume going). A lot of DPMs simply can't see patient appts 32-40hrs/wk, they won't, or they get behind on notes or stressed out or don't do much DME/proc when they do it. Many of those associates might have a decent contract, but they basically give up on any chance of bonus or start counting other people's money within a year and turn it into a game of how many days off they can take, how few patients they can see, etc (basically turn their PP job into a VA job since they view bonus as impossible or too much work). Smart practices realize that and try to either help them along or get rid of them fast.
But yeah, if anyone is seeing even 350-400pts/mo (so bringing in at least ~$40k/mo gross for the office), you should be getting $200k - or looking for a new job. Not every employer will do that, but there are quite a few out there that will. I think they are are easier to find than a lot of people feel they are. Browsing ACFAS and APMA and another classified list or two are the basic minimum start of a job search, not the whole search.
The two basic PP models of either finding quality associates/partners and compensating them well vs lowballing and having a revolving associate door exist in the MD, dent, law, CPA, etc worlds too. Some of it ties into the high volume + high overhead vs low volume + low overhead models. I think that, in podiatry, the compensation frustration is just amplified since the ranges are so broad and there are much less hospital jobs or hospital practice support than MD/DO (although now, in the last ~10yrs, we do have tons more than dent or pharma or OD).
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 1,362
- Reaction score
- 2,944
Some good points. I respectfully disagree with your comment on plenty of DPM PP groups paying fairly. In my opinion a majority of DPM PP groups do not pay fairly. On average, DPM PP offers (even the "good" ones) are a complete joke compared to hospital/MSG/ortho. But hey, you know what they say about opinions.
Man, it’s like you and I are the same person.
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2013
- Messages
- 614
- Reaction score
- 1,280
Many great points Feli.
In my MSG, even with clinic about 3.5 days each week averaging around 22-25 patients each day, my average monthly billings have been around $140k. On my OR days that have no cases, I open it up for clinic just to keep the volume going granted I’m on a wRVU basis. Still new so I expect to ramp up even more
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2018
- Messages
- 574
- Reaction score
- 1,007
$105k a year is obviously laughable except if you are working part-time. I also suspect that the $160k base salary will be for the first year or 2 to attract fellowship trained candidates and those with experience looking for new opportunities and then they switch everyone to 30% based off productions after the honeymoon period is over.
I can easily see some associates coasting and living life making $160k base salary and taking the maximum vacation, sick days etc. As feli said, an associate making $160k base will not want to do clinic on their surgery day when there is no cases. Why bother when you can't hit the $600k bonus threshold.
I want to open a practice next to a sketchers store.
100% (Yes 100%) of my patients with incurable foot pain will only wear sketchers.
They are the worst shoes out there.
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2008
- Messages
- 4,256
- Reaction score
- 6,734
I will see your Skechers and raise you Hey Dudes
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2015
- Messages
- 911
- Reaction score
- 1,537
You must be one handsome fellow.
Long time lurker, wanted to ask some questions about what people are saying for making your own job opportunities with cold calling and such. I apologize if these questions are rudimentary, I am just terrified of this job market and coming away with nothing.
I should preface this by saying I am a graduating PGY3. I thought for about a month now that I would be signing onto a PP with an older DPM (50's) who I know and have worked with extensively at my program, and who has gotten rave reviews from every attending in my program about how he's a great guy, good rep, and wouldn't screw me. His plans to acquire another office and bring me in full time have stalled a bit so now I am looking and expanding my search. I have another opportunity potentially, but it would be a part time job at a large DPM group, and not with anyone I know - all of that gives me some pause. I could still end up working for the first guy, but now I am getting quite anxious, and I am worried I have gotten into this too late with my contract ending in two months.
1) How did you decide who to cold call? Did you just google every hospital, MSG, and ortho/DPM group in your area and make a list and then go down the list? As someone who lives in a large metro area, there are too many of these on Google to even count. Let alone if I start cold calling random solo or other small PPs.
2) If I'm calling a hospital or a large MSG, who am I even asking to speak to?
3) Is there any indicator from the outside looking in that you are targeting in order to say "ok I should def call this one?" Some groups have no podiatry whatsoever, some have one DPM, one has 20. Is one or the other more indicative of their willingness to hire a DPM?
4) How have you broached the subject with whomever you're speaking with? Just seems awkward to me to call and ask about a job opening that may or may not even exist.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer some advice. (or reassurance!)
I should preface this by saying I am a graduating PGY3. I thought for about a month now that I would be signing onto a PP with an older DPM (50's) who I know and have worked with extensively at my program, and who has gotten rave reviews from every attending in my program about how he's a great guy, good rep, and wouldn't screw me. His plans to acquire another office and bring me in full time have stalled a bit so now I am looking and expanding my search. I have another opportunity potentially, but it would be a part time job at a large DPM group, and not with anyone I know - all of that gives me some pause. I could still end up working for the first guy, but now I am getting quite anxious, and I am worried I have gotten into this too late with my contract ending in two months.
1) How did you decide who to cold call? Did you just google every hospital, MSG, and ortho/DPM group in your area and make a list and then go down the list? As someone who lives in a large metro area, there are too many of these on Google to even count. Let alone if I start cold calling random solo or other small PPs.
2) If I'm calling a hospital or a large MSG, who am I even asking to speak to?
3) Is there any indicator from the outside looking in that you are targeting in order to say "ok I should def call this one?" Some groups have no podiatry whatsoever, some have one DPM, one has 20. Is one or the other more indicative of their willingness to hire a DPM?
4) How have you broached the subject with whomever you're speaking with? Just seems awkward to me to call and ask about a job opening that may or may not even exist.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer some advice. (or reassurance!)
- Joined
- May 15, 2021
- Messages
- 102
- Reaction score
- 202
Make a list of all the practices/organizations you'd consider working at and just start calling. It is awkward, but it's really not that bad. Be confident but polite obviously. Ask to speak to the practice manager, you'll usually get a voicemail. Leave a quick message (<30 seconds) stating your purpose and your contact info. Don't go off on a rant about how you are highly trained, hard working blah blah. Get in, get out, and make it easy for them to reach back out to you. In my experience with this you get a call back about 10-20% of the time even if they don't have a current opening, it's a numbers game. Good luck
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2008
- Messages
- 4,256
- Reaction score
- 6,734
Call everyone. Just because they have a pod doesn't mean they don't want to add more. Or get rid of the one already there. Ask to talk to the CEO of you can, if not medical staff coordinator or recruiter if larger group. Maybe they are opening a new location. Maybe they are are expanding existing area because current doc is slammer. Who knows.
Don't assume anything.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Messages
- 4,117
- Reaction score
- 4,421
You can do it however you want. Don't call if you obviously don't want to work there. Don't call if you wouldn't want to visit fairly soon afterwards (strike while the iron is hot). Again, speed dating analogy... you wouldn't flirt with someone you weren't attracted to, and you don't get a number only to sit on it for awhile.
Once you have one or two offices or hospitals in an area to make a visit, you can add a couple more 'backups' to visit for a half day on the same trip. Just like clerkships, sometimes you are pleasantly surprised. I just tell them I'm coming to see if it's a fit or to shadow or whatever (no compensation talk until the fit is deemed good). It is also interesting to see how some places react when you mention you're visiting another pod opportunity the next day.
I would call for the PP office manager, hospital recruiter or HR. They will usually get you a call back from a doc (if they are looking). CEO or owner is ideal if it's a smallish hospital or office, but that's usually tougher - esp in large groups and hospitals. Def doesn't hurt to ask.
An offer received from a PP ortho by one of my prior residents... Wasn't able to offer her much guidance as my PP experience with collections vs hospital RVU model is non-existent. How reasonable is achieving 500K collections for her?
Year 1: 200K base + 50% after 500K collections
Year 2: No base; Eat what you kill: 50% of collections
Partnership option after year 2, she does not have info on buy-in.
Year 1: 200K base + 50% after 500K collections
Year 2: No base; Eat what you kill: 50% of collections
Partnership option after year 2, she does not have info on buy-in.
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2008
- Messages
- 4,256
- Reaction score
- 6,734
Yeah do it. But needs to have some things in writing and figured out ahead of time. I have had some issues with my partners in terms of amnio and stuff like that. They are not comfortable with having 40 to 60k outstanding at a time. That assumes she's going to be doing some wound care stuff.
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2009
- Messages
- 1,226
- Reaction score
- 1,990
If anyone is looking into MSG work in Central FL, PM me... I might be able to help.
- Joined
- May 6, 2015
- Messages
- 500
- Reaction score
- 1,022
3rd year resident here
Is it a red flag that a hospital system doesn't want to discuss salary until you visit?? Recently had a zoom interview with a rural hospital system (3 hospitals, about 50-100 beds each). When I asked about potential salary, they told me that can be discussed when I visit. This is a first for me.
I've been talking with 2 other hospitals in the same/bordering states, and they both told me salary/benefits BEFORE offering me to come visit. I'm unsure about going to visit somewhere for multiple days without knowing any salary. Any insight would be appreciated, thank you
Is it a red flag that a hospital system doesn't want to discuss salary until you visit?? Recently had a zoom interview with a rural hospital system (3 hospitals, about 50-100 beds each). When I asked about potential salary, they told me that can be discussed when I visit. This is a first for me.
I've been talking with 2 other hospitals in the same/bordering states, and they both told me salary/benefits BEFORE offering me to come visit. I'm unsure about going to visit somewhere for multiple days without knowing any salary. Any insight would be appreciated, thank you
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2011
- Messages
- 2,736
- Reaction score
- 6,186
This isn't a PP where you can get 20 offers and they are all under $140K. It seems stupid, but just visit them. I'm not hearing a lot of stories of being screwed by hospitals on here. If you can find a compelling lifestyle/location reason - that would be a win. A friend of mine was offered more money than I ever would have thought possible in a starting position by a rural hospital. The arrangement involved a series of streams of revenue from different responsibilities beyond clinical/surgical. Yes, you could visit a bunch of hospitals and they all might offer you $200-250 or whatever, but there might be wilder numbers out there for those inclined to look.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2020
- Messages
- 136
- Reaction score
- 220
That just seems bogus to me. If that's the case, how come other medical professions don't regularly start at sub 100k salaries as an associate? Can anyone think of a single MD/DO/DDS that would accept a starting 85k private practice associate salary on the premise that they are "losing money on you?"
