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The **NEW & IMPROVED** official low gpa thread...
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Ok, I get it...I get it.
I believe everything you're saying. It's just curious that I've spoken to some formal post-bac programs and they've said it would be difficult not impossible and encouraged the application saying that my master's work, although not applicable, would show that I'm serious and capable of graduate level work (yes, I know it's sesame street learning in comparison). No one, until this forum, has mentioned SMPs.
I am willing to go to the Caribbean (if I can get in) and I'd be thrilled to get into a DO program if I'm eligible after a post-bac (if I can get into one).
I believe everything you're saying. It's just curious that I've spoken to some formal post-bac programs and they've said it would be difficult not impossible and encouraged the application saying that my master's work, although not applicable, would show that I'm serious and capable of graduate level work (yes, I know it's sesame street learning in comparison). No one, until this forum, has mentioned SMPs.
I am willing to go to the Caribbean (if I can get in) and I'd be thrilled to get into a DO program if I'm eligible after a post-bac (if I can get into one).
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Really? I find that hard to believe. Which formal post-bac programs told you to apply with a 2.55 cGPA? I also find it hard to believe that they would say your masters' work in an unrelated field would show you are capable of graduate level work in sciences...
Also find this hard to believe
If you rock your pre-reqs and do decently on the MCAT, you could start in the Carib as soon as you are done with these things.
To get into a DO, you'd have to rock your pre-reqs, your MCAT, and need a little luck. By my calcs, the prereqs are about 40 credits (give or take a bit) and my calcs showed you'd need 55 credits to break a 3.0. Thus you'd still have a sub 3.0 cGPA which is not a receipe for success in applying to DO unless you rock the MCAT. You can repeat any classes from your previous academic life where you got a C and that'd still help raise your GPA. But you'd still be sub 3.0 prob and need a huge dose of luck.
Either way, for the US you'd need to rock your prereqs, the MCAT, have stellar ECs, and need a big dose of luck. For the carib, you need to do these, just to a lesser degree and you could theoretically start early.
Yeah I completely agree with Rob that formal post-baccs are out of the question with your current GPA. Your graduate level work is completely unrelated to science and I fail to see how it would even correlate with forming an accurate gauge on how well you would do in a formal post-bacc.
I actually don't find it that surprising that if she's only spoken with advisers from either her undergraduate institution or other universities that they haven't mentioned an SMP. For someone who hasn't even taken any pre-reqs or science courses whatsoever, to talk about a Masters program with medical courses is a far stretch not to mention most undergrad advisers (my experience) are in general pretty clueless on any process to reach medical school but the traditional path.
Even if they did know of such a program, more often than not, they do not give you the benefit of the doubt that you might be able to handle it and immediately discount any possibility that you will succeed.
I personally would side with Drizzt and take advantage of the clean slate option they have since it sounds as if you would be eligible. Otherwise what Rob and Dr. Midlife has repeatedly suggested over and over is the other solid route.
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Drizzt's suggestion about Texas is a good one, and one I often overlook. I need to remember this route more often.
Jslo - fair point about the advisors. Though whenever I've talked to docs or people in med school admissions, SMPs come up regularly. But I suppose what you hear, depends a lot on your audience.
Jslo - fair point about the advisors. Though whenever I've talked to docs or people in med school admissions, SMPs come up regularly. But I suppose what you hear, depends a lot on your audience.
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For what it's worth, I have a < 3.0 cGPA and sGPA in bio, and I have been accepted to a couple of mid-level SMPs thus far. Both claim that most accepted students have > 3.0 GPAs. Where programs 'required' > 3.0 I called and was invited to apply in all cases. I made my case for eligibility based on my complete package, which includes seven recent hours of 'A' in physio and biochem, and a good grad GPA in business. Now this isn't exactly apples to apples, but it's all fruit. So, I think it's possible to get into a post-bac, and if you were encouraged to apply and you can afford the time and money, go for it.
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I would advise that people with a cGPA < 3.0 or actually more like < 3.3 focus on SMPs that have a high linkage to the parent school. Applying in the open pool is pretty tough and you get questions about your GPA in some cases even if it's pretty high.
Hi everyone, I desperately need all of your help, suggestions, and recommendations. Please bear with me if this post is longer than usual but I want to give you guys as much information on my situation as possible so that you can give me the best advice possible.
I'm 25 and would be considered a non-trad student when I apply to school in a few years. I'm personally dealing with my own medical hell with my spine and foot, which require more surgery, hence why it would be awhile till I applied to allopathic school, but I want to make the right decisions now.
I graduated two years ago with honors with a BS in bio sciences and a minor in biochemistry. My school said that I have a 3.45 cGPA and sGPA of 3.38. I just recently calculated these GPAs on a AMCAS spreadsheet and according to them my cGPA is 3.39 and my sGPA is 3.25. Regarrdless of which one is right, I know those numbers are no where near competative but I want to know the best way for improving my grades for med school. I have yet to take the MCAT yet, because I know that scores are only good for 3 years and I'm not sure yet when I'll be completely recovered from surgery so I wanted to wait. But suffice it to say I always score avg on standardized test (ie the SAT and GRE) so I'm expecting to do the same on the MCAT and will most likely have to take it a 2nd time.
In my pre-reqs, I got B's in my biology courses/labs, B+'s in Orgo with a A in Orgo Lab, B+ in Gen Chem I, C+ in Gen Chem II/Gen Chem Lab, C+ in Gen Physics I, a B in Gen Physics II, and B+'s in both Gen Physics Labs.
Gen Chem and Gen Phsics are what brought my GPA down in sosphmore year, but I had an upward grade trend junior and senior year where I got almos all B+'s and A's in all my upper level bio sciences courses (biochemistry, microbiology, genetics, molecular genetics, virology, toxicology, immunology, endocrinology, etc
The biggest conundrum I'm in is how to go about either improving my undergrad GPA or making my application more competative? I personally feel I have three options and want to find out from all of you which one do you think is my best bet.
1) take 5-6 mid-upper level undergrad bio sciences courses at my undergrad institution from courses that I wanted to take but could not due to time constratints (ie neurobio, cell/developmental bio, histology, parasitoloty, bacterial physiology, cancer, neuroendocrinology, etc) that I'm pretty sure I could get B+ and A's in too boost up my undergrad GPA>
2) do one of the special grad programs listed on SDN where you take graduate level biomed science classes to show I can do graduate level science work.
3) apply and do one of the several SMP programs that allow you do take med school courses with med students, though this is the riskiest and most expensive option to pick from.
I personally think option 1 or 2 is better. I feel I don't qualify for any of the post-bac programs because most are only for people who don't have the sci pre-reqs, but I do and the others only offer the same upper level bio sciences courses I have taken already and have done well in.
I would really appreicate any input, suggestions, recommendations that you think would be best for my circumstances.
I'm 25 and would be considered a non-trad student when I apply to school in a few years. I'm personally dealing with my own medical hell with my spine and foot, which require more surgery, hence why it would be awhile till I applied to allopathic school, but I want to make the right decisions now.
I graduated two years ago with honors with a BS in bio sciences and a minor in biochemistry. My school said that I have a 3.45 cGPA and sGPA of 3.38. I just recently calculated these GPAs on a AMCAS spreadsheet and according to them my cGPA is 3.39 and my sGPA is 3.25. Regarrdless of which one is right, I know those numbers are no where near competative but I want to know the best way for improving my grades for med school. I have yet to take the MCAT yet, because I know that scores are only good for 3 years and I'm not sure yet when I'll be completely recovered from surgery so I wanted to wait. But suffice it to say I always score avg on standardized test (ie the SAT and GRE) so I'm expecting to do the same on the MCAT and will most likely have to take it a 2nd time.
In my pre-reqs, I got B's in my biology courses/labs, B+'s in Orgo with a A in Orgo Lab, B+ in Gen Chem I, C+ in Gen Chem II/Gen Chem Lab, C+ in Gen Physics I, a B in Gen Physics II, and B+'s in both Gen Physics Labs.
Gen Chem and Gen Phsics are what brought my GPA down in sosphmore year, but I had an upward grade trend junior and senior year where I got almos all B+'s and A's in all my upper level bio sciences courses (biochemistry, microbiology, genetics, molecular genetics, virology, toxicology, immunology, endocrinology, etc
The biggest conundrum I'm in is how to go about either improving my undergrad GPA or making my application more competative? I personally feel I have three options and want to find out from all of you which one do you think is my best bet.
1) take 5-6 mid-upper level undergrad bio sciences courses at my undergrad institution from courses that I wanted to take but could not due to time constratints (ie neurobio, cell/developmental bio, histology, parasitoloty, bacterial physiology, cancer, neuroendocrinology, etc) that I'm pretty sure I could get B+ and A's in too boost up my undergrad GPA>
2) do one of the special grad programs listed on SDN where you take graduate level biomed science classes to show I can do graduate level science work.
3) apply and do one of the several SMP programs that allow you do take med school courses with med students, though this is the riskiest and most expensive option to pick from.
I personally think option 1 or 2 is better. I feel I don't qualify for any of the post-bac programs because most are only for people who don't have the sci pre-reqs, but I do and the others only offer the same upper level bio sciences courses I have taken already and have done well in.
I would really appreicate any input, suggestions, recommendations that you think would be best for my circumstances.
I have a similar troubled academic background to BuckFMP where both my cGPA and sGPA are below a 3.0 and I also have been accepted into a couple of mid level SMPs and waiting some responses from more "higher level" ones. I knew my hard stats were lower than the average matriculating student in these programs and below what they were looking for but I had other parts of my application that I felt would stand out as well as an upward trend in the upper division sciences (informal post bacc) as opposed to poor grades in entry level science.
I guess it's like what Buck said and some of the other posts here on SDN with the typical question "what MCAT score do I need to balance out my horrendous GPA??" You really never know till you actually apply whether you have a shot or not but if you don't, then it's an automatic 0% chance. I don't recommend it because everyday I have to agonize whether or not I get accepted with my subpar stats and hoping that they'll look at all other aspects of my application instead but if you do, I personally recommend looking for programs with assured linkages through to the medical school. Granted these programs don't accept more than 10-16 students for obvious reasons, but if you fit the profile they are looking for, they might give you the benefit of the doubt.
First off, Drizzt replied to your other post which is in the stickied thread which I'll just copy and paste here for convenience sake.
It's nice to also see that you've put some thought into this after doing some research which is mm... not so common around this board. Anyway, I bolded what I felt was the most important points of your post to help other members who might want to give advice. You have a cGPA of 3.39 and a sGPA of 3.25 on AMCAS and that is the only thing that will really be taken into consideration come medical application time as far as admissions committees are concerned. That said, your GPA as you know already is below competitive stats for allopathic schools but the fact that it was fairly isolated (only in physics) and that you have demonstrated competency in the upper division sciences I think is somewhat of a plus in your current situation.
The fact that you haven't taken the MCAT and that you cannot really project when you would apply to medical school prevents me from actually giving a definite response as to what I think you should do. I assume your current physical condition and planned surgeries will prevent you from attending school/graduate programs so is it safe to say that you are 3 years removed from any of your listed options above? If this is so, I would probably come back to this in the near future when you have more definite times in mind as to what you can do. I might start MCAT studying now by buying a study guide like ExamKrackers and take a more leisurely pace in the meantime. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the three options. You will definitely need to take some new classes prior to applying to show that you can still take science courses after such a long period of time between your stint as a student. You would also need new LOR and clinical experiences.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say taking a semesters worth of upper div science courses to ease yourself back in and then taking a 1 year masters program would probably be sufficient after it's all said and done with your surgery/recovery? I don't see your GPA as being low enough that an SMP would be of utmost necessity but it's not out of the question either. You just could use more of an upward trend in the hard sciences and some recent classes to show that you're "back to normal" after being out of school for such a long time. Just my 2 cents.
All great advice. You are right, it most likely would be 2-3 years till I could even apply to med school and I am definitely working on my clinical and community experience right now till I wait to see what my neurosurgeon says. Like you said it would be a wait in see game because it all depends on how my recovery goes and I'm not even sure if I will able to fully recover and even return to school because it is possible I might have permanet nerve damage, have to wait and see though.
Despite all that, I'm trying to remain optimistic and plan as if I will be able to go to med school. I'm not worried about LOR's. I have notified all three of my professors who I asked for recommendations of my situation and I'll go back and see them when the time has come. They are great recommendations because they are from classes I did extremely well in and got A's as upper division courses during my junior and senior year. I have been seriously considering SN2ed MCAT exam study guide that is shown on SDN. He too recommends a combination of TBR and EKs for review and study purposes along with one or two things from TPR.
I'm sure I could be accepted into those programs because I got several MPH and MS admissions offers last year but unfortunately had to deny them all because I had to have spinal surgery. Its been a gut wrenching endeavor trying to go back to school having all these damn medical problems but I hold out hope and so does my neurosurgeon and neurologist.
The only question I still have is, the only reason I'm doing this is to improve my undergraduate GPA and make my app stand out more by doing a 1 year biomed master program. You mentioned to do it to prove that your still can after so much time. It's only been 2 years this May since I graduated and will only be 5-6 years max when I did apply. I don't think that is that absorbent amount of time since graduation. I thought you only had to worry about that if it was like 10-12+ years since graduation?
Anyway, because there is so much uncertainty with my health and recovery aspect and the real worries I have about the physical rigors of residency and my spine, I am possibly considering PA school and the subsequent career as a fall back depending on my MCAT score is and/if what age I'll be when I finally get these medical problems solved. As you well know and my neurosurgeon has said this several times, nothing in medicine is 100% certain, and might take longer than him and I both know till I am fully recovered and I could be in my 30s when that happens. Regardless of which route I chose though, MD or PA, they are very similar in regards to admissions requirements so anything I do will work for either kind of program. Though a nice perk of many PA programs is some don't require any standarized test scores.
Thanks again for the suggestions and I look forward to hearing from others as well!
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Actually, I don't know if I'd go back now and do the taking some more undergrad bio sci courses. I just found out that the AMCAS grading scale of a B+ is considered 3.3 while my undergrad institution is 3.5 for a B+, while the A is obviously 4.0
I'm not 100% sure I could get all A's in those classes and why I was aiming for B+'s and A's but if AMCAS uses the 3.3 then getting B+'s wouldn't do anything to raise my GPA. I would have to get all A's which as you know is extremely difficult.
Oh decisions decisions!
I'm not 100% sure I could get all A's in those classes and why I was aiming for B+'s and A's but if AMCAS uses the 3.3 then getting B+'s wouldn't do anything to raise my GPA. I would have to get all A's which as you know is extremely difficult.
Oh decisions decisions!
By doing a Masters program you would technically not be improving your undergraduate sGPA but starting a new graduate GPA. My thinking was instead of going back to undergraduate science courses, you would be able to demonstrate that you can perform in harder graduate level science courses which would (in my opinion) be a better gauge for Adcoms on your capacity to handle academics again.
I may be confused but I was under the impression it would be 3-4 years at least till you would be able to even apply for one of these graduate programs. If I am mistaken then I apologize but if you are out of school for 3-4 years before applying, Adcoms will need new grades to show that you still have academic competency.
I have a friend who's older sister was going to be a MS1 at Ohio State. Shortly after attending for the first two months there, she dropped out due to a badly planned sudden marriage where she ended up moving back home to Portland, Oregon. She gave birth within a year and reapplied, this time to OHSU hoping she would be able to go to school close to home but was told she needed to retake the MCAT, obtain new LOR, and demonstrate that she could still handle the academic environment. Obviously her decision in dropping out of school for the choice of marriage did not help her out either but that's aside from the point. It's just an example I brought up to show that if you leave the academic environment for a period of time, it raises doubt on whether you still have what it takes. In her case she was out for 3 years only compared to the potential 5-6 that you are looking at. MCAT scores expire after 3 years for a reason. Getting into a competitive Masters program catered for medical school acceptance right after graduation is one thing, trying to get in 4-5 years later with grades taken from 4-5 years ago is another.
That said, I could be wrong and everything is always situational. I don't think it would require more than 2-3 courses and a strong MCAT to get into one of these programs for you.
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i forget, when you enter it into the amcas app do you enter them as letters, or as 4.0 GPA conversions, or both. Either way, always aim for A's... you're trying for med school. also, if you have too, look for a school nearby that uses the 3.7 scale.
No I absolutely understand where you are coming from I just wanted to clarify. This May will have only been two years since I graduated from college. At the time of applying to med school it would be probably 4-5 years since undergrad graduation so I can understand, while in the grand scheme of life, its not a very long time, anal retentive adcoms are going to want to see if you can still do the work. Even if I took more undergrad courses or did a accelerate biomed master's, I would get new recommendations letters in classes I participated and did very well in. Its a real shame though because I got strong letters of recommendations from my virology, endocrinology, and microbiology professors.
But like I said, all of this right now really means nothing. When you don't have your health you have nothing. It all will depend on how things with my health go and my future surgeries. If I can't get my spine and radiculopathy under control, I won't have to worry about grad or med school. Hopefully that won't be the case but you never know. I'm planning for good things to happen so that I'll be able to go back to school and I have fall back plans if by chance med school becomes out of reach.
Thanks again for all your help. I really appreciated it.
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You enter them as letter grades and also the number of credit hours for each class. The AMCAS system still stinks because it penalizes students like me more who had a different grading system at their undergrad institute and the B+ 3.3 vs 3.5 difference hurts me a lot since I got a lot of B+'s.
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well it doesnt really hurt you as much as it makes it a level playing field. otherwise any school can say we only give out 4.0's, 2.0's and 0's, so anything above a C is a 4.0. IMO the 4.0/3.5/3.0 system is dumb because it doesnt cover enough results... however the 4.0/3.7/3.3 system is also dumb because it isn't scaled properly.
sounds like an intersting program. I could start my academic career fresh with 2 undergrad As since everything else was over 10 years ago. That means basically a full 4 years of undergrad, then medical school - in TX only.
Would any of my graduate credits in Education apply towards a bachelor's? That would soften the blow since those were good scores. I sense that the answer is probably no. If not, it just sounds like too many years.
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Honestly you're going to spend that long anyways with 2.6x with less chance of success.
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deleted248403
Agreed.
You are at least 2-3 years from even remotely thinking about applying and prob more realistically, 3-4 years.
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I've read a dozen posts giving you some pretty sobering advice on your outlook for medical school. You are definitely in a bind with your gpa and it's something to overcome. However, if you are really committed I wouldn't necessarily believe all the doom and gloom headed your way.
Take a lot of hard courses and get all A's. Get a great score on your MCAT. Give yourself a fallback plan in case it doesn't work, but if you can get straight A's on a full courseload and a nice MCAT, there are schools out there that will give you a look.
I talked myself into a post-bac with a sub 2.5 sGPA and sub 2.7 cGPA, and I'm applying to med school this summer. PM me in 6 months and I'll let you know how I'm doing 🙂
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Scoring in the 99.9% on the MCAT helps, although you'll probably still get screened out at some places.
There was a girl from Caltech in my cycle who had a 3.0ish GPA and 42 MCAT who ended up getting a couple interviews and acceptances, I think she went to school somewhere in TX (not baylor/sw) it's tough tho.
There was a girl from Caltech in my cycle who had a 3.0ish GPA and 42 MCAT who ended up getting a couple interviews and acceptances, I think she went to school somewhere in TX (not baylor/sw) it's tough tho.
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There are contradicting bits of advice and opinions all over the place, so never take any one opinion as the absolute truth. With that said, I did want to remark that I've heard the opposite regarding graduate-level coursework.
In my case, I'm doing a master's degree in biology. We were told by an administrator for our program (who happens to double as an admissions committee member at this institution) that most committee members do not regard graduate-level work to be as difficult as medical school coursework. This administrator felt differently, but seemed to be in the minority. So be prepared for that.
(In a way, it makes sense. While my course work has arguably required a greater understanding than my wife's medical school coursework, my wife had a heck of a lot more material - and more varied material - at any given moment than I did. It's the breadth vs. depth comparison, and it's true that excelling in one doesn't mean you can excel in the other. So, while somewhat disheartening, claiming that excellence in graduate-level coursework doesn't necessarily ensure excellence in medical school coursework is true. To say that one is more difficult than the other is a matter of opinion, though.)
Thats the hardest decision when deciding what option to take. Everyone tells you something different. I know two people who took grad level biomed science courses in a accelerated masters program and got admissions into med school. But then there are others who either did not or were told something different.
But you are right, the difficulty between med school vs grad school coures is relatively the same. They differ as you pointed out in their philsophy of depth vs breadth. Its tough though, depending on the school, certain classes are mixed with grad and med students and are taught the same way so there is nothing written in stone. It really depends on the grad school/med school structures at each different university.
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It depends, certainly you won't work as hard in a grad program than you will in med school, especially years 2 and 3. It depends, I suppose, I was in the most difficult major at arguably the most difficult undergrad in the country, and it certainly wasn't as much work as med school, but a lot of that is because your margin for error is less when you're talking about going for the most competitive fields.
Very true. I'm glad you pointed that out because in the end your opinion is what matters and the purpose of this board is to collect advice and information that you may not find on websites (in my opinion). That said, I try to make clear in my posts what is purely opinionated (and possibly unfounded) in what I think other members who ask for advice should do.
That said, I think I should have been a bit more clearer in what I was referring to as graduate coursework. I remember getting vague ?s whenever I referred to osteopathic masters programs as osteopathic SMPs or DO SMPs so I occasionally refer to them as graduate coursework or a graduate degree. In a sense all SMPs are but on these boards the term gets tossed around so much and argued about that I call osteopathic "SMPs" as simply graduate work from time to time. I think the title they use the most is Masters of Biomedical Science.
Unlike traditional Masters programs, their curriculum is heavily tailored towards medical school courses or modified medical school courses taught by the basic science faculty for MS1s to involve less clinical material. For example:
AZCOM MBS Curriculum: First year is Histology, Human Anatomy, Neuroanatomy, Biochemistry, Immunology, Microbiology, Pharmacology, Physiology, and Medical ethics. Second year is then almost purely research in a lab with a medical school faculty mentor along with w/e other medical school electives you choose to take.
It's more of a hybrid between a research based traditional Masters and that of an SMP. Some DO SMPs will have courses that are slightly modified like i mention above and some others will make attendance with MS1s mandatory in the same lecture. Some will be less research oriented and others will require an oral defense and abstract poster presentations and publications. It just depends where you apply to. These were what I was referring to by graduate coursework but yes you are absolutely right in that graduate courses are generally more in depth and the breadth vs. depth argument is valid imho.
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deleted248403
DO schools average, MD do not
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Isn't it: DO schools replace, MD average?
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deleted248403
Yeah your right, I shouldn't post when I first wake up - I need to have coffee before posting.
DOs do replace
Apologies
DOs do replace
Apologies
What would help is if you gave us a bit more background to worth with such as:
1. cGPA/sGPA
2. What is your major
3. What are you trying to pursue (MD, DO or DMD/DDS)
4. Where are you located and do you want to relocate
5. Time you would want to start applying to "said" program
6. Taken MCAT or DAT? If so what score
7. Have you done any extracurricular activities and have LOR? (do you have all the other things needed besides GPA and MCAT/DAT in applying)
8. Is cost an issue and if so realistically about what would you be able to afford (range)
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1. 3.2 cGPA and a 2.1sGPA (23 credits)
2. My major is History, I was originally pre-med but I was immature and didn't put the time into it so I switched.
3. I would love to do MD but I'm not sure if that's realistic so DO is fine too.
4. I live in Philadelphia, and I'd be willing to go to any med school in the U.S. that would accept me.
5. I'd probably start taking classes this fall at a local state school
6. No, I haven't taken the MCAT yet.
7. I've done some volunteering at a hospital but I plan on doing a lot more this summer to reinforce that this is what I want to do before I go into more debt and fully commit, and of course I'll be taking more the next few years while I'm bringing up my GPA.
8. I'm about 60k in debt (ugh!) so cost is an issue which is why I'm going to a state school.
I know I have a steep mountain to climb and that 2-3 years probably isn't realistic either but I'm hoping to get into an SMP if I do well.
2. My major is History, I was originally pre-med but I was immature and didn't put the time into it so I switched.
3. I would love to do MD but I'm not sure if that's realistic so DO is fine too.
4. I live in Philadelphia, and I'd be willing to go to any med school in the U.S. that would accept me.
5. I'd probably start taking classes this fall at a local state school
6. No, I haven't taken the MCAT yet.
7. I've done some volunteering at a hospital but I plan on doing a lot more this summer to reinforce that this is what I want to do before I go into more debt and fully commit, and of course I'll be taking more the next few years while I'm bringing up my GPA.
8. I'm about 60k in debt (ugh!) so cost is an issue which is why I'm going to a state school.
I know I have a steep mountain to climb and that 2-3 years probably isn't realistic either but I'm hoping to get into an SMP if I do well.
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A caveat which may or may not make a difference: although osteopathic medical schools replace the grade for the purposes of calculating your GPAs, the original grades are still visible in your application. The original grade is marked as one which the applicant has re-taken, but it doesn't disappear.
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Based on some very quick (and quite possibly very sloppy) math, you could get your sGPA to a 3.06 by taking 30 units and earning a 3.8 average. That in concert with a good MCAT score (32+ would be a good goal) would put you in the running to land a spot in a good SMP. In total, you would be looking at a year of undergraduate-level coursework followed by a year in a SMP.
If you wanted to go the cheapest route, you're probably looking at taking a bunch of science units (>60) at a state university as a second bachelors student, and aiming for a very high GPA. For example, 60 units of 3.9 GPA science work would bring your overall sGPA to a 3.40. That's still below average for MD schools but within the realm of possibility. With that GPA and a strong MCAT, you'd also be in a decent position for osteopathic schools. This route would break down to about four full academic semesters of full-time enrollment (15 units/semester) combined with a take-no-prisoners attitude.
If you make your sole focus getting into a DO school, you might be able to save some significant time (and money) by retaking your poor science grades (assuming they're among the usual pre-requisites) along with some new upper division coursework (genetics, biochemistry, microbiology, etc) to demonstrate that you can handle the big leagues. With a strong performance, well-planned retakes and a good MCAT, you might be able to apply for osteopathic schools in 1-1.5 years.
DrMidLife is due to swoop in at any moment and offer the same great advice she usually does: start slow, and make sure you can hang before you go all out. You're already in a bad spot and there's no sense in jumping in feet first until you know you can handle the work and perform at the level necessary to succeed.
Good luck!
Okay so I bolded the statements that are probably the most important as of now and I'll respond in my opinion the problems and what you would need to do to each point. Remember this is simply my opinion and others may disagree and that it may sound negative and overly harsh but I'm trying to be as realistic as possible. To really gain anything on these boards, one often needs to have a thick skin.
- Being a history major is fine you just need to take the pre-requisite courses for applying to medical school. The problem is your cGPa is not good and your sGPA is terrible. 21 units (quarter units?) would equate to about 5 4 unit classes roughly and I have no idea which ones of the pre-req courses (gen chem, orgo, gen bio, physics) that you have taken.
-The question of where are you from/relocating was not for medical school but more to see if you are nearby or would be willing to attend a formal post-bacc program. I do not know of any in the Philadelphia area, and the only programs that I do know of that are willing to give a certificate and a formal program for students who have completed a few but not all of the pre-reqs as well as offer upper division science courses are UVA post-bacc and UT Dallas.
-Keep it in mind that when you do take the MCAT, you need a high score to compensate for your poor early performance and if that means getting test prep (Kaplan or TPR) or self study materials (EK), the former will cost you several thousand and the latter not as much. Do as many practice tests as possible to gauge yourself on your progress and how you might perform on the real thing.
-I'm going to go out on a limb and say just volunteering and putting even huge amount of hours isn't going to cut it. You're a non-traditional with a pretty mediocre GPA in History and a very troubled start early in the sciences and you will have to address the question of why did you decide to change directions and why would you be a good physician. If you look around these boards you're going to start seeing members who are also in the same boat with a poor GPA with laundry lists of things on their CV. Just to throw out a few ideas, research publications, research abstracts, EMT certification, CNA licenses, ED scribe, overseas volunteering at a hospital, physician/specialty shadowing, OR experience, mercy corp, etc. Do volunteering as it's a great thing, but use it as a means to an end and look to expand and make yourself unique and as comprehensive as possible.
-Being in a financial problem at this point in time is tough for you. You're looking at school to a) complete the rest of your pre-reqs, b) to take upper division science courses afterward, c) paying for an SMP (22-55K), d) medical school. SMPs are not easy to get into, most require an application that is almost identical to a medical school application and are really expensive. Fortunately for you, you might have an option in not having to relocate and pay for housing as Philadelphia has a couple SMP programs in PCOM, Temple, Drexel and UPenn. You can do research into each school and the programs they offer for more details.
In general before applying to an SMP you should be hitting a 3.0 with a high GRE score or an MCAT score around 30+. I'm generalizing quite a bit but those are very generic rough stats that would begin to have SMPs look at you. I would go and find an AACOMAS or AMCAS coursework calculation and do my own calculations in finding out how many units/classes/grades I would need to achieve that 3.0 mark. You don't have too many units done so it shouldn't be impossible. Know that the osteopathic route through AACOMAS will allow you to take a retaken grade for a previous class as your replaced grade. I would look into what your local university has to offer and work out a tentative schedule for the next two years of what you can realistically accomplish as well as start mapping/brainstorming what clinical activities are available (there should be plenty, you're in phi). You might even think of extending it through 3 years before re-evaluating by having a year to find a job/work to pay off some debt before it becomes too overwhelming.
IMHO, your units are recoverable from by just accomplishing good grades from here on out. If it is quarter units, you've only taken 5 classes and you still have quite a few to go and there are plenty of upper division sciences to take as well. Off the top of my head 1.5-2 years including summers could probably get you to the 3.0-3.2 range where you can consider an SMP. OR if you went the DO route and did the grade repeat, if you get a 3.2 and a MCAT ranging from 28-32 you should be able to realistically start looking at receiving interviews.
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hey everyone,
im currently a sophomore at 4 year state university
state college gpa = 3.46
state college science gpa = 3.10
i have 18 credits from community college, a 15 of which are science
cc gpa = 4.0
im REALLY hoping the CC will help, and not be looked down upon or raise a red flag.
im taking organic II this semester, which is EXTREMELY hard, it will bring my GPA down. i might even have to re-take it, it sucks.
yet to take mcat. definately will take kaplan course for that, and apply very very early to boost chances. if you have any advice, please reply or message me.
thank you 🙂)
im currently a sophomore at 4 year state university
state college gpa = 3.46
state college science gpa = 3.10
i have 18 credits from community college, a 15 of which are science
cc gpa = 4.0
im REALLY hoping the CC will help, and not be looked down upon or raise a red flag.
im taking organic II this semester, which is EXTREMELY hard, it will bring my GPA down. i might even have to re-take it, it sucks.
yet to take mcat. definately will take kaplan course for that, and apply very very early to boost chances. if you have any advice, please reply or message me.
thank you 🙂)
D
deleted248403
I am anti-CC so I will not say it is going to help.
People disagree on how valuable it is and whether or not it counts the same but I don't think under any scenario someone will be impressed at CC grades. They just might not knock points off for it.
People disagree on how valuable it is and whether or not it counts the same but I don't think under any scenario someone will be impressed at CC grades. They just might not knock points off for it.
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I disagree, I think it is fine as long as you're getting As.
D
deleted248403
That was my point Drizzt.
IMO, under the best case scenario its fine. But I don't think it helps because, IMO, CC aren't as rigorous as a 4-yr univ. (I appreciate there may be some crappy 4yrs that the best CC is better than, but i'm not sure anyone here is qualified for that comparison)
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From what I've heard, CC credits are good for org, gen chem, phys, bio, etc, but are worthless for upper level biosci courses like micro, biochem, endo, etc. If you are getting a 4.0 in the pre-reqs at a CC it most likely will not hurt (as this is what many middle-aged non-trads do). If you are doing slightly worse it probably could.
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Scenario 1) someone has 4.0 at a cc for 2 years and 3.8 for 2 years at a 4 year.
Scenario 2) someone has 3.8 at the same 4 year as person 1
I'd argue person 1 is better off.
Scenario 2) someone has 3.8 at the same 4 year as person 1
I'd argue person 1 is better off.
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Provided scenario 1 occurs in that order, i'd argue they're the same, with a slight nod to scenario 2
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Not to beat a dead horse and offend anyone, but IMO, the difference between a 3.8 and 3.9 is minute, and getting 3.8 at a college-level as opposed to spending 2 years at a glorified high school level is more impressive. Agree to disagree.
That said, to any premeds reading, both are exceptional achievements and both routes are excellent ways to get you into med school.
That said, to any premeds reading, both are exceptional achievements and both routes are excellent ways to get you into med school.
D
deleted248403
And in my mind person 2 would be, just because of my massive anti-CC bias.
Each to his own, not sure it makes a huge difference but just fail to appreciate how a CC 4.0 "helps" your resume. IMO, it just doesn't hurt...
We shall have to agree to disagree
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Trust me, when you're applying to top tier schools, the difference between 3.8 and 3.8 is NOT minute, unfortunately. Admissions is a lot about numbers and statistics of the incoming class. At our school, we use a point system for admissions with bonuses for certain milestones and both >35 MCAT and 3.9 or above GPA are milestones that give you extra points.
Not to be condescending but once you're in the app cycle, you'll realize how annoyingly I
important numbers are and how little adcoms care about things that you think are really important.
Not to be condescending but once you're in the app cycle, you'll realize how annoyingly I
important numbers are and how little adcoms care about things that you think are really important.
Story:
Took Biomedical Engineering at Drexel University. On account of just plainly not being ready for college, clinical traumatic history that most likely cant be dug up on my records (possibly may count against me? nothing jail-ish), a high school sweetheart that tore my heart up and chucked it out the door, I did poorly and got a cGPA of 1.8.Drexel University was on a co-op program and so I stuck it out at that school for 3 yrs (1 full yr and 6 months for the next 2 yrs)
Got kicked out of that school and went to community college for 1.5 years with a cGPA of 3.69.
Combined total for Drexel and CC was 2.38
Miraculously finished my A.A in Liberal Arts and went to NYU. I have another 3 terms (December 2011) until I complete my undergrad degree in applied psychology. If I end up with a 3.5 or 3.6 at NYU my cGPA of all 3 schools will be a 2.7.
Should I incorporate doing my prereqs at NYU or do a Post Bacc which I am trying to avoid. NYU is already a lot of money as it is and med school will be as well... I'm trying to find a strategy and plan. Should I do the Post Bacc or just do the courses now.
I've been woking for the last three years and have done some hospital work and will continue to do some volunteering for the next two years. Please let me know what route you think is best.
Thanks
Took Biomedical Engineering at Drexel University. On account of just plainly not being ready for college, clinical traumatic history that most likely cant be dug up on my records (possibly may count against me? nothing jail-ish), a high school sweetheart that tore my heart up and chucked it out the door, I did poorly and got a cGPA of 1.8.Drexel University was on a co-op program and so I stuck it out at that school for 3 yrs (1 full yr and 6 months for the next 2 yrs)
Got kicked out of that school and went to community college for 1.5 years with a cGPA of 3.69.
Combined total for Drexel and CC was 2.38
Miraculously finished my A.A in Liberal Arts and went to NYU. I have another 3 terms (December 2011) until I complete my undergrad degree in applied psychology. If I end up with a 3.5 or 3.6 at NYU my cGPA of all 3 schools will be a 2.7.
Should I incorporate doing my prereqs at NYU or do a Post Bacc which I am trying to avoid. NYU is already a lot of money as it is and med school will be as well... I'm trying to find a strategy and plan. Should I do the Post Bacc or just do the courses now.
I've been woking for the last three years and have done some hospital work and will continue to do some volunteering for the next two years. Please let me know what route you think is best.
Thanks
It's really up to you because the best advice we offer to you as a neutral party may not be th best route for you to take because of financial concerns. Obviously a top post-bacc program like Scripps/Goucher/BM would be ideal but that would not work because of your GPA and your financial concerns.
Let's hypothetically say you get your 2.7. You have quite a few units you still have to take with a full year of Gen Chem, Gen Bio, Orgo, Physics and whatever upper division science courses you will wish to take as well. I suggest you go find a AMCAS or AACOMAS grade calculator spreadsheet (MD vs. DO respectively) and calculate what kind of GPA you would realistically be looking at after all is said and done. 3.5-3.6+ and 32+ MCAT is what would begin to be competitive for allopathic schools, 3.3 with a 30+ MCAT would be competitive for osteopathic schools. Yes people get in with lower stats but as a guideline that's what you should shoot for.
As for formal post-bacc programs to satisfy pre-med requirements there are many but they may also be out of your price range. UVA, St. Louis, Columbia etc. are all formal post-baccs for pre-med. Cheaper options would include UT Dallas, SFSU, HES etc. You can do some research there. The other option of course is to do it at your local state school. If you worry about it counting against you that you do these pre-reqs at a local 4 year school as opposed to a formal program, for the most part it won't unless the program has linkages which would only give you an added advantage. It's really what you make of it and the grades/how heavy of a courseload you choose to take. Just shoot for all As and obtain solid LOR from science professors and you shouldn't have an issue.
As I said it's up to you. Formal post-baccs I would generally say if it's not UT Dallas, SFSU or HES, you would have serious trouble getting in with your GPA not to mention the financial problems. Dallas has it's advantages by finalizing linkages to the state's other medical schools in if you obtain a 3.75 in their program and a 30 on the MCAT you automatically get interviews at all schools (don't quote me on this, read from a current student that this was getting finalized). The other ones do not but they have a solid reputation on working for many other SDN members. Anyway, good luck on w/e you choose. PM me if you have any other questions.