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Any advice appreciated:

I have a 3.31 cGPA, 3.05 sGPA in Neuroscience at a top public school; I graduated in Dec. 2009. Is it worth applying to the SMP at Georgetown (specifically Gtown because I've been living at DC and I had worked in a lab there), given that I get somewhere in the mid-30s on the MCAT and that I can reasonably gambit killing my classes?

I also have several years of research experience in both undergrad and in full-time jobs post-undergrad. I'm also heavily volunteering and am soon shadowing a psychiatrist.

What I'm asking is, should I be re-taking classes somewhere, or should I apply straight to an SMP?

 

[Slowpoke]

I have been reading some threads on this subforum to clear up some questions for a friend looking into postbacs. Just wanted to say that this thread is very inspirational!

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Hello all, could use some advice. I am going into my 4th year of university with a 31R and a 2.7 :/, plenty of research and EC's but nothing spectacular. Do I have a shot at any SMP? Should I stay a 5th year then apply?

Thanks, could really use some advice.

 

[DrMidlife]

3.31 cGPA

^^that's consistent with Gtown

3.05 sGPA in Neuroscience

^^that's worrisome.

What I'm asking is, should I be re-taking classes somewhere, or should I apply straight to an SMP?

In your shoes I'd want more undergrad A's in hard science before taking on an SMP. SMPs are hard.

Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

Hello all, could use some advice. I am going into my 4th year of university with a 31R and a 2.7 :/, plenty of research and EC's but nothing spectacular. Do I have a shot at any SMP? Should I stay a 5th year then apply?

Thanks, could really use some advice.

As with my previous post, don't go on to an SMP without getting a large pile of A's in difficult undergrad science. SMPs are hard.

2.7 is below the cut for SMPs, regardless, unless you want to go DO. You have to suck it up and do more undergrad. Another full time year of all science with a 3.7+ would be good progress.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

As with my previous post, don't go on to an SMP without getting a large pile of A's in difficult undergrad science. SMPs are hard.

2.7 is below the cut for SMPs, regardless, unless you want to go DO. You have to suck it up and do more undergrad. Another full time year of all science with a 3.7+ would be good progress.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks! do you think I have a shot at a DO school or DO smp?

 

[DrMidlife]

Thanks! do you think I have a shot at a DO school or DO smp?

You could theoretically get into a DO school with your current GPA and that MCAT.

But I hope you don't do that.

Med school is hard, and it goes on for a long time. I'd speculate your 2.7 reflects an endurance issue - maybe you got some A's now and then, but you haven't kept up the pace for years-long chunks of time. If that's the case, then figure out how to get A's over a long period of time before you go to med school. You don't have any time to figure out how to thrive under a crushing load of all science in med school (or in an SMP).

One way to get lots of A's over a long period of time is a DO SMP. A lot of DO SMPs (actually, fairly traditional grad study; that "S" in "SMP" is arguable) are 2 years long, and you get to prove yourself in situ at the school that's most likely to accept you.

If you don't know anything about DOs, start by reading the Gevitz book and finding a DO to shadow. The pre-osteo and osteo forums here are pretty much the worst place to find out what DO means.

Best of luck to you.

 

[RoseGarden]

I am in a very similar situation as Turkelton.
AMCAS Cumulative GPA 3.08; Science GPA 2.85.
Graduated 2008 at a top university (not Ivy), Neuroscience major.
Did 2.5 years of research, have a few middle author publications.
Spent 1 year abroad volunteering and shadowing in a hospital, had some amazing clinical experiences.
Taking MCAT in April, am scoring 36-39 on practice MCATs.
I am planning to do an MHS at JHU Public Health in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. It has been four years since I've been in the classroom and I am determined to work hard to improve my GPA (though I am aware undergrad GPAs are weighted much more than grad GPAs). It is only one year but hopefully a great performance will prove that I have matured and am dedicated enough to do well in difficult science classes. Along with needing some GPA repair, I am deeply interested in Public Health and International Health. This program seems like the perfect opportunity. I've made some strides in fixing the problems I had in undergrad, but I won't really know until I get in there again...

 

[crazycooljoel]

Thanks! do you think I have a shot at a DO school or DO smp?

I agree with DrMidlife. Do not underestimate a DO school, it is actually more curriculum than an MD school in many cases. This is because in addition to learning everything an MD student learns for the USMLE, the DO version of the USMLE, the COMLEX, has the MD type academics in addition to the osteopathic manipulation medical education. DO students most often graduate with more credits than MD students because of the added osteopathic curriculum. They usually accept a little bit lower GPA and/or MCAT score because they look more at the applicant as a person than a number and are often non-traditional students doing career changes or some other similar thing. Osteopathy uses the philosophy of being holistic.

So as DrMidlife mentioned, I recommend the same. Don't apply to a DO school thinking that it'll be easier because they may accept lower numbers. Make sure you are prepared for the rigorous academics like a long and grueling marathon, because it's not a sprint. It is after all, an academic marathon in many ways. So yea, take more sciences, do well in them, don't take too much of a load at once, and study a LOT! Good luck!

 

[deleted248403]

I agree with DrMidlife. Do not underestimate a DO school, it is actually more curriculum than an MD school in many cases. This is because in addition to learning everything an MD student learns for the USMLE, the DO version of the USMLE, the COMLEX, has the MD type academics in addition to the osteopathic manipulation medical education. DO students most often graduate with more credits than MD students because of the added osteopathic curriculum. They usually accept a little bit lower GPA and/or MCAT score because they look more at the applicant as a person than a number and are often non-traditional students doing career changes or some other similar thing. Osteopathy uses the philosophy of being holistic.

lol drink the koolaid much?

 

[Neokaze92]

First time poster,

cGPA: 2.46 with 49 credit hours
Second year going into my third year

So I really need some advice.
Being a doctor was always something I pursued; I was always in and out of hospitals at a young age as my family are all immigrants and I was the only one bilingual enough to translate for any medical issue. However in my last year of high school I doubted myself; I thought about the "8+ years of schooling" I had to do and it scared me off. So I diverted from that path not know what to do entering university. So I took courses in business and philosophy thinking they would be interesting (philosophy) or useful (business), some courses were okay and some were just painful to take, my GPA ended up suffering. After visiting my uncle who's a pediatrician in San Francisco and job shadowing him, I got to see first hand what goes on and it got me inspired again to pursue the medical path. I am now starting to take all the science pre-reqs, and I am wondering how much will my first 2 years of undergrad affect my application?

 

[deleted248403]

First time poster,

cGPA: 2.46 with 49 credit hours
Second year going into my third year

So I really need some advice.
Being a doctor was always something I pursued; I was always in and out of hospitals at a young age as my family are all immigrants and I was the only one bilingual enough to translate for any medical issue. However in my last year of high school I doubted myself; I thought about the "8+ years of schooling" I had to do and it scared me off. So I diverted from that path not know what to do entering university. So I took courses in business and philosophy thinking they would be interesting (philosophy) or useful (business), some courses were okay and some were just painful to take, my GPA ended up suffering. After visiting my uncle who's a pediatrician in San Francisco and job shadowing him, I got to see first hand what goes on and it got me inspired again to pursue the medical path. I am now starting to take all the science pre-reqs, and I am wondering how much will my first 2 years of undergrad affect my application?

Very bad. Start getting all As from now on and after you've done that for a year. Then re-evaluate if you have a shot.

 

[johnnyscans]

First time poster,

cGPA: 2.46 with 49 credit hours
Second year going into my third year

So I really need some advice.
Being a doctor was always something I pursued; I was always in and out of hospitals at a young age as my family are all immigrants and I was the only one bilingual enough to translate for any medical issue. However in my last year of high school I doubted myself; I thought about the "8+ years of schooling" I had to do and it scared me off. So I diverted from that path not know what to do entering university. So I took courses in business and philosophy thinking they would be interesting (philosophy) or useful (business), some courses were okay and some were just painful to take, my GPA ended up suffering. After visiting my uncle who's a pediatrician in San Francisco and job shadowing him, I got to see first hand what goes on and it got me inspired again to pursue the medical path. I am now starting to take all the science pre-reqs, and I am wondering how much will my first 2 years of undergrad affect my application?

Is that your AMCAS GPA, or your university GPA? How many BCPM classes have you taken, and what is your GPA in those? Have you taken any of your MCAT classes, e.g Chem, Bio, Orgo, Physics, or is that your main focus for the next two years? At least it looks like you've got URM status going for you.

Two full time years at a 4.0 (which is extremely difficult) would have you finishing your fourth year with a sub-3.0 GPA. That's a ways away though. Your focus right now is getting the best grades you possibly can. Until you can routinely get A's, nothing else matters.

 

[freshbagels]

I'm a fifth year undergrad at a state school, set to receive dual B.S. degrees in Biochemistry and Genetics/Cell Biology in the spring. I've got a 2.75 cGPA and a ~2.78 sGPA - I was a rower for 4 years, and I prioritized my sport over my academics. I also had ADHD that was undiagnosed until last fall, and for which I now am being treated.

My last four semesters (including this current one) have comprised nearly every upper division molecular biology course that is offered, as both of my degrees are in the same school. I have an upward trend starting last fall, and am on pace to hopefully receive a ~3.7 GPA for this last semester (all upper div science classes, the majority of which are undergrad/grad combined.) I originally intended on applying for my traditional M.S. degree and then move in to a Ph.D. in the biomedical sciences, but after starting undergraduate research in earnest this last semester, I have discovered I do not enjoy benchwork or the grant/paper/grant/paper treadmill life that is academia as much as I thought I would. My GRE scores are 169V/159Q/5.5W, and I haven't taken the MCAT yet.

I'm currently applying to SMPs and traditional M.S. programs that have deadlines after my graduation (very early May), as my current semester and letters of recommendation from the research I am doing are integral to my application being at all competitive. I plan to begin shadowing and volunteering this summer as well, and continue my graduate work. Assuming I do well on the MCAT (I'm aiming for a 34+ - obviously will require some refresher work on my ochem/physics), and have a successful SMP/2-year M.S., do I stand a chance to be accepted to a U.S. M.D. program?

 

[johnnyscans]

I'm a fifth year undergrad at a state school, set to receive dual B.S. degrees in Biochemistry and Genetics/Cell Biology in the spring. I've got a 2.75 cGPA and a ~2.78 sGPA - I was a rower for 4 years, and I prioritized my sport over my academics. I also had ADHD that was undiagnosed until last fall, and for which I now am being treated.

My last four semesters (including this current one) have comprised nearly every upper division molecular biology course that is offered, as both of my degrees are in the same school. I have an upward trend starting last fall, and am on pace to hopefully receive a ~3.7 GPA for this last semester (all upper div science classes, the majority of which are undergrad/grad combined.) I originally intended on applying for my traditional M.S. degree and then move in to a Ph.D. in the biomedical sciences, but after starting undergraduate research in earnest this last semester, I have discovered I do not enjoy benchwork or the grant/paper/grant/paper treadmill life that is academia as much as I thought I would. My GRE scores are 169V/159Q/5.5W, and I haven't taken the MCAT yet.

I'm currently applying to SMPs and traditional M.S. programs that have deadlines after my graduation (very early May), as my current semester and letters of recommendation from the research I am doing are integral to my application being at all competitive. I plan to begin shadowing and volunteering this summer as well, and continue my graduate work. Assuming I do well on the MCAT (I'm aiming for a 34+ - obviously will require some refresher work on my ochem/physics), and have a successful SMP/2-year M.S., do I stand a chance to be accepted to a U.S. M.D. program?

The problem you're going to run into is actually getting your applications read. A 2.75 will very rarely make it into the hands of someone who's going to read the rest of your application. As much as it sucks, the first step of the application process is a huge numbers game- numbers = ranking for med schools, and you better believe they have egos. With that said, it becomes clear that you have not shown the ability to thrive under a heavy science courseload-the purpose of your GPA. For the best chace at US MD that probably needs to get closer to a 3.0. Also, you understand the risk and difficulty associated with an SMP, right? You also know that a masters will be viewed as a solid EC, and probably won't overshadow your poor cpga/sgpa?

I think your best bet is to explore the profession (and others) while taking another year of scence courses. Earn all As. Then apply to the best SMPs you can get into. Right now with no shadowing/volunteering in a clinical setting and your grades you simply aren't an attractive SMP candidate.

 

[freshbagels]

The problem you're going to run into is actually getting your applications read. A 2.75 will very rarely make it into the hands of someone who's going to read the rest of your application. As much as it sucks, the first step of the application process is a huge numbers game- numbers = ranking for med schools, and you better believe they have egos. With that said, it becomes clear that you have not shown the ability to thrive under a heavy science courseload-the purpose of your GPA. For the best chace at US MD that probably needs to get closer to a 3.0. Also, you understand the risk and difficulty associated with an SMP, right? You also know that a masters will be viewed as a solid EC, and probably won't overshadow your poor cpga/sgpa?

I think your best bet is to explore the profession (and others) while taking another year of scence courses. Earn all As. Then apply to the best SMPs you can get into. Right now with no shadowing/volunteering in a clinical setting and your grades you simply aren't an attractive SMP candidate.

After checking over my list of schools to apply to, the only SMP is U. North Colorado - the rest are post-bacc pre-health programs, ranging from 12-24 months, or traditional M.S. degrees. I do have the ability to excel with difficult coursework (taking my current semester as the example), but I obviously need a way to demonstrate that to the adcoms. My poor GPA is pretty much a direct result of my apathy towards my academics in light of the time commitment required by my sport. Now that I am both unburdened by 30+ hours a week of practice, regatta travel, etc. and have started being treated for ADHD (which had plagued my entire academic career), I feel that I am entirely capable of succeeding under the difficult load an SMP/MD requires.

If I am estimating correctly, a good (3.8+) post-bacc and a solid MCAT (34+) score could allow me entrance to a linked SMP, which, assuming I do well in, sets me up to at least be given a second look by medical schools.

 

[DrMidlife]

After checking over my list of schools to apply to, the only SMP is U. North Colorado - the rest are post-bacc pre-health programs, ranging from 12-24 months, or traditional M.S. degrees. I do have the ability to excel with difficult coursework (taking my current semester as the example), but I obviously need a way to demonstrate that to the adcoms. My poor GPA is pretty much a direct result of my apathy towards my academics in light of the time commitment required by my sport. Now that I am both unburdened by 30+ hours a week of practice, regatta travel, etc. and have started being treated for ADHD (which had plagued my entire academic career), I feel that I am entirely capable of succeeding under the difficult load an SMP/MD requires.

If I am estimating correctly, a good (3.8+) post-bacc and a solid MCAT (34+) score could allow me entrance to a linked SMP, which, assuming I do well in, sets me up to at least be given a second look by medical schools.

You have to answer for all of your undergrad work, not just the most recent year or two. A sub-3.0 is the kiss of death, unfortunately. This is going to be a long road for you...

U of North Colorado has a one-year masters in biomedical sciences. That doesn't make it an SMP. You might be able to get into RVU from there.

Same with Colorado State's one year masters: http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/bms/planb.htm

If you want to go DO, look at the biomed sci masters programs at DO schools. They'll take you with a 2.75.

If you want to go US MD, do a sixth year of undergrad to show that your one 3.7 semester wasn't a fluke. Then do a real SMP like Gtown/Boston/Loyola/EVMS.

You might be able to do the VCU postbac from a 2.75, if your MCAT is strong.

Your competition published original research and got 4.0's while rowing crew. You have to convince a med school to take you over a kid with great stats.

Best of luck to you.

 

[OBGYN2be]

.

 

[johnnyscans]

I've been a longtime lurker, but with my newly published MCAT score, I think it's time to get assessed. My cgpa is a 2.98 and my sgpa is a 2.62. I got a 31L and have been looking into some of the URM programs. Am I headed towards the right direction?

I think you need to take a good hard look at your sGPA and ask yourself if you have what it takes to pull out A's from this point forward. A 2.62 sGPA is pretty horrendous. Do you have the academic resilience to pull off killer grades in any future coursework?

 

[OBGYN2be]

I believe I do. I think my gpa is an accurate representation of undergrad career but not necessarily my academic capacity. I want to show that through SMPs.

 

[scarshapedstar]

I've been a longtime lurker, but with my newly published MCAT score, I think it's time to get assessed. My cgpa is a 2.98 and my sgpa is a 2.62. I got a 31L and have been looking into some of the URM programs. Am I headed towards the right direction?

Science should be your strong point... What was the breakdown on your MCAT score?

 

[OBGYN2be]

11p/11v/9b

 

[DrMidlife]

I've been a longtime lurker, but with my newly published MCAT score, I think it's time to get assessed. My cgpa is a 2.98 and my sgpa is a 2.62. I got a 31L and have been looking into some of the URM programs. Am I headed towards the right direction?

I believe I do. I think my gpa is an accurate representation of undergrad career but not necessarily my academic capacity. I want to show that through SMPs.

11p/11v/9b

That MCAT score is great, and in your shoes I'd view it as "permission" to proceed. (We see a whole lot of "with my crap GPA and an imaginary 30+ WAMC?" around here...it's a relief to have a tangible good score to work with.)

But undergrad GPA is really important. Unlike the MCAT, which is a predictor of board scores, undergrad GPA predicts long term classroom capabilities. You need to show that you are capable of doing A work over years of hard science, which is what you'll find in med school. Showing med schools is important, obviously, but showing yourself is also critical. Getting into med school before you're ready to succeed would be a huge mistake.

I don't think you should be looking at SMPs. I think you should be looking at URM postbacs, particularly those that allow multiple years of coursework. Georgetown GEMS, Wake Forest, and the UCalif's have programs, and you can find an old list of more here, category 5. An URM postbac is going to give you a small class and strong support. I suggest you should contact some programs and see if they allow you to do the coursework equivalent of a 2nd bachelors (2 years).

If you're ready to get straight A's in a couple more years of coursework, and you are able to get into a supportive URM postbac this coming Fall, then you'd be set up to apply MD in June 2014 and you wouldn't need to take the MCAT again. You'll want to get going on URM postbac apps right away - deadlines are soon.

Best of luck to you.

 

[OBGYN2be]

Thanks for the recommendation. I really wanted to use my MCAT to show that I am capable. I never looked into the UCs so thanks for that rec. Unfortunately GEMS and Wake Forest are for previous applicants and I've yet to apply. I'll apply to the other programs an I'll keep u guys posted.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Hi all. Just found this thread and I have to say it is really informative, so I'd like to contribute my story! I got my BS in engineering in 2010 and I've been doing an informal post-bacc at my local university, taking classes whenever I can afford them. I graduated with a cGPA of 3.4 and a sGPA of 3.25. Currently I'm at a cGPA of 3.5 and a sGPA of 3.4, which will hopefully be a 3.5 after the 2 classes I'm taking this spring. I'm taking the MCAT in 2 weeks and have been averaging a little over 32. I'm hoping to at least hit my average, but you can never be too sure until you get your scores back. I've been volunteering at a hospital the past 2 years, and should have about a year's worth of non-clinical volunteering by the time I apply. My other ECs include 8 years of work at a golf course, with two years as a supervisor, a lot of hours teaching golf to kids, and about 50 hours of shadowing. I'm planning on applying in June, as early as I possibly can. Does this seem like a solid plan, given my stats, or are more post-bac needed? I would really like to just go through this process once, if at all possible. Thanks, and good luck to all the others in this thread!

I'm going to shamelessly bump my old post here for the sake of closure. I just got my MCAT score back yesterday and got a 31O. I'm pretty disappointed in myself, but I've decided I'm going to have a go at this upcoming cycle. Not sure what else to do besides cross my fingers and hope, but if anyone has any further advice, I would love to hear it.

 

[DrMidlife]

I'm going to shamelessly bump my old post here for the sake of closure. I just got my MCAT score back yesterday and got a 31O. I'm pretty disappointed in myself, but I've decided I'm going to have a go at this upcoming cycle. Not sure what else to do besides cross my fingers and hope, but if anyone has any further advice, I would love to hear it.

Twins! I got not one but two 31O's.

What you could plan on is:
1. Apply early and broadly to well researched schools. That means submit on June 1. That means you need to not only read the MSAR that comes out in April, you need to review the admissions pages (read the FAQ!!!) at each med school you target. Have your LORs submitted to AMCAS in July. Pre-write your secondaries (you can find the essay prompts on SDN).
2. Think about an MCAT retake in maybe September.
3. If your MD apps don't get you accepted by maybe October, start SMP apps.
4. Pinch pennies.
5. If you're in California, forget the above. Get into a good SMP for Fall 2012 and don't apply MD until you finish the SMP and have a better MCAT.

Best of luck to you.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Twins! I got not one but two 31O's.

What you could plan on is:
1. Apply early and broadly to well researched schools. That means submit on June 1. That means you need to not only read the MSAR that comes out in April, you need to review the admissions pages (read the FAQ!!!) at each med school you target. Have your LORs submitted to AMCAS in July. Pre-write your secondaries (you can find the essay prompts on SDN).
2. Think about an MCAT retake in maybe September.
3. If your MD apps don't get you accepted by maybe October, start SMP apps.
4. Pinch pennies.
5. If you're in California, forget the above. Get into a good SMP for Fall 2012 and don't apply MD until you finish the SMP and have a better MCAT.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks for the response DrMidlife! I will definitely be applying early and broadly. Thankfully, I am not a California resident (Wisconsin, for the record). I do have money secured for applying this cycle to as many schools as necessary (maybe ~30?), but if I don't get in, all bets are off for the following cycle. At that point, even though I really want to persue medical school, I might consider trying to find an engineering job and re-visit med school after saving up some money.

Also, I just took a look through your MDapps and wanted to say congrats. I hope you are enjoying medical school.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Twins! I got not one but two 31O's.

What you could plan on is:
1. Apply early and broadly to well researched schools. That means submit on June 1. That means you need to not only read the MSAR that comes out in April, you need to review the admissions pages (read the FAQ!!!) at each med school you target. Have your LORs submitted to AMCAS in July. Pre-write your secondaries (you can find the essay prompts on SDN).
2. Think about an MCAT retake in maybe September.
3. If your MD apps don't get you accepted by maybe October, start SMP apps.
4. Pinch pennies.
5. If you're in California, forget the above. Get into a good SMP for Fall 2012 and don't apply MD until you finish the SMP and have a better MCAT.

Best of luck to you.

I forgot to address this in my last post. Regarding #2, would the MCAT retake be for the purpose of update letters to schools who have either not made a decision or who have waitlisted me, or are you referring to the following cycle? The reason I ask is because my searching around SDN has led me to the impression that taking the MCAT 3 times is a sort of a "no no", unless I could jump to the mid-30s. Would the benefit of a more balanced score (maybe +1 or 2 ) outweight the stigma of a 3rd attempt?

 

[DrMidlife]

I forgot to address this in my last post. Regarding #2, would the MCAT retake be for the purpose of update letters to schools who have either not made a decision or who have waitlisted me, or are you referring to the following cycle? The reason I ask is because my searching around SDN has led me to the impression that taking the MCAT 3 times is a sort of a "no no", unless I could jump to the mid-30s. Would the benefit of a more balanced score (maybe +1 or 2 ) outweight the stigma of a 3rd attempt?

If you don't get an MD acceptance, and you need to do an SMP, you'll want to also do anything and everything in your power to improve your app. A few more MCAT points is one of the few things (possibly) under your control.

31O is good for SMPs, but if you get a few more points ahead of SMP apps, that helps you have lots of SMPs to choose from.

Best of luck to you.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

If you don't get an MD acceptance, and you need to do an SMP, you'll want to also do anything and everything in your power to improve your app. A few more MCAT points is one of the few things (possibly) under your control.

31O is good for SMPs, but if you get a few more points ahead of SMP apps, that helps you have lots of SMPs to choose from.

Best of luck to you.

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks again for the help DrMidlife.

 

[Disaster]

Hi. I have a 2.98 GPA currently as a third-year. I know I definitely need to get my GPA above a 3.0 at least, but my question is what's the best way to do it?

1. Post-bacc?
2. SMP?
3. Staying at my university 1-2 more years (delaying gradation)?
4. Other option?

I'm currently thinking #3. I was thinking a minor in business, but that won't bring up my science GPA. I did poorly in general chemistry 2, organic chemistry and some upper-level biology courses like microbiology and human biology. Should I retake those at my current university or retake those at a post-bacc program?

I'd welcome any advice.

 

[DrMidlife]

I'm currently thinking #3.

Yes, but think bigger. You need to do a multiple year strong performance in lots of hard sciences, to demonstrate to med schools and to yourself that you can handle the rigors of med school. Retaking some classes isn't that performance. A 2nd bachelors (or the addition of a 2nd major or a couple of minors) might be that performance.

What do you need to do to get straight A's, for a really long time, in really hard classes, mostly science? That's the big question I encourage you to prioritize.

I did poorly in general chemistry 2, organic chemistry and some upper-level biology courses like microbiology and human biology. Should I retake those at my current university or retake those at a post-bacc program?

Do whatever gets you a couple years of mostly A's in mostly hard science. Also: how about straight A's this semester? That would be a great first step.

Look at how you'll pay for all this. Student loans for 5th year and beyond are limited. Private loans are a disaster if you go on to med school - they'll grow out of control and you don't get any forbearance in residency.

Look at transferring to another school after June. Do you need to be in smaller classes? In a different town, closer or farther from your parents? Do you need to be at a school that offers more upper div science? Get apps done right away if so - deadlines are probably already here.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Disaster]

Retaking some classes isn't that performance. A 2nd bachelors (or the addition of a 2nd major or a couple of minors) might be that performance.

What about a post-bacc? I've read that post-baccs can help people with low GPAs. With regard to a second major, could that be a non-science major? It's the biology and chemistry courses that I've made C's and B-'s in, but I've made A's in non-science classes. I'm worried that if I just take non-science classes to act as GPA boosters, admissions will notice a discrepancy between my sGPA and cGPA, and will figure I took courses just to "stuff" my cGPA. Is this a problem or a solution?

Look at how you'll pay for all this.

I'm blessed with very supportive parents who're financially stable. That being said, your point is duly noted; I don't want to throw money down the sink where I can help it.

What do you need to do to get straight A's, for a really long time, in really hard classes, mostly science? That's the big question I encourage you to prioritize.

This is a question that's puzzled me for some time. It's bizarre because my grades are all over the place. In non-science classes (e.g. classics and government), I made easy A's. In my labs, I made A's. Even in physics, which I abhor and consider myself unproficient in, the lowest grade I've made was a B+. It's the biology & chemistry courses that are killing me, with an average of C+. It's frustrating because I've changed study habits but can't score consistently. A learning specialist said I have exam anxiety, and a few professors have said that I just haven't found what it takes to "click" yet.

But that's a personal problem, and I didn't post here to mope. While I do hope that eventually I can do well in a chemistry class, my question is what's a good idea until I find what it takes to "click?"

For instance, how does retaking courses before graduation compare to taking them after graduation (post-bacc)? I've heard that it's more difficult to raise your GPA after graduation than before. But I've also heard that joining the workforce for a bit (so, after I've my degree) is not a bad idea. What are your thoughts?

Look at transferring to another school after June.

I'm that guy who studies for hours every day but still scores below average on the exams 🙁 . I'm not the only one who has that problem, I imagine. But now that I'm about to be in my fourth year, and after having put in all my effort and know-how into improving my grades and still falling short, this is a question I'm starting to seriously consider.

Best of luck to you.

Thank you very much, and thank you for your thoughts 🙂 . I'm just trying to weigh all my options.

 

[Caracci]

Hey everyone,

I'm a Canadian applicant from BC so would like to ask a question about how US schools look at non-degree courses.

I graduated from my undergrad 2 years ago, pretty low GPA (3.4ish) and science GPA even lower. I'm going to a local university this summer as a "non-degree" student and am planning to take some prereqs (ie calculus, physics...and plan on killing them!!). Do I need to take a full course-load for US schools to consider it as part of my undergrad GPA, or do they accept one or two courses into that average?

Any help would be really appreciated!!

Thanks! 🙂🙂

 

[AlienJola]

Hello, long time lurker and first time poster here 🙂 I finally caved in and registered to gauge my chances at applying for a post-bacc program!

I have a ~2.75 in both cGPA and sGPA. I did relatively well early on in freshman/sophomore year, but personal problems (failed relationship, depression, passing away of a close relative, minor relapse into depression) hit my GPA hard. Much of the reason why I want to apply to a post-bacc program is to bring up the awful GPA and/or to prove that I can handle graduate-level coursework, and from what I gathered a post-bacc was one way to go about those goals.

I have a 27Q MCAT (8V, 9P, 10B), which I took shortly after I graduated after I found out that I needed an MCAT score to get into a program I was interested in. I know it's not an optimal score, as I didn't have time to prepare and the requirement caught me off guard at the time, but it was something that needed to be done and I did it. I definitely plan on retaking it whenever chance I can.

My extracurriculars are solid. I have some medical experience from volunteering at hospitals and the local fire department as part of first response, 200+ hours in each. I also have a lot of non-medical work experience, which helps I guess? (stuff like camp counselor, restaurant kitchen staff, tutor, etc.)

My recommendations are, surprisingly enough, solid as well. They all come from people who knew me pre- and post-depression, so they still hold me in a positive light. I consider myself fairly lucky in that regard, I guess 😛

Let me know what you guys think, please, in regards to post-bacc or anything else for that matter! Many thanks in advance for all your help!

 

[mack123]

Hello everyone.. I've been reading the threads for some time now and appreciate all the insight you all share. I'm considering a career change into medicine. Currently, I work in investment management but am getting burned out and disinterested. I have always been interested in medicine and science but never pursued it. Prior to my work in finance I worked as a health care advocate, battling insurance companies on behalf of patients.

Based on what I've been reading here at the forums, I don't know if I have a realistic chance at a post bac or eve med school. I want to solicit some opinions here and see what people think.
A little about me.. dual major undergrad in economics and health policy. Ugpa 2.8. Crappy, I know. I wasn't ready for school.. but I did it. Grades trend strongly upwards.
I'm 1/4 of the way through an MBA program (while working full time). From what I've read, graduate GPA won't matter for admissions for med school, however, my GPA is currently a 3.8. I performed strongly on the GREs, particularly the quantitative section. I also have volunteered ~ 500 hours at The Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania.

Do I have any shot at a postbac program, specifically in or around philadelphia? Will postbac programs also consider graduate GPAs for admissions? Would it be better to do post bac on my own and not thru any official program? Thanks for your help!

 

[johnnyscans]

I have a ~2.75 in both cGPA and sGPA. I did relatively well early on in freshman/sophomore year, but personal problems (failed relationship, depression, passing away of a close relative, minor relapse into depression) hit my GPA hard. Much of the reason why I want to apply to a post-bacc program is to bring up the awful GPA and/or to prove that I can handle graduate-level coursework, and from what I gathered a post-bacc was one way to go about those goals.

I have a 27Q MCAT (8V, 9P, 10B), which I took shortly after I graduated after I found out that I needed an MCAT score to get into a program I was interested in. I know it's not an optimal score, as I didn't have time to prepare and the requirement caught me off guard at the time, but it was something that needed to be done and I did it. I definitely plan on retaking it whenever chance I can.

As you said, GPA needs some work. The problem is budging both when you've already completed at least 32 credit hours of sGPA courses and 120 credit hours of cGPA courses. Also, downward trend is no bueno. I'm going to guess you're going to want to do a year or two of solid upper lever science coursework. This will serve several purposes.
1. It will reteach you how to study and earn As. Make no mistake, there's no room for Bs from here on out.
2. It will show adcoms that you can handle upper level science coursework. This makes an even more compelling statement if you find ways to stay super busy while enrolled. I firmly believe that anyone can get an A in one or two classes if that's the only thing their doing. 8 credits + working + research + volunteering. . . now that makes a statement
3. While it's not a steadfast rule, there are programs with a hard cutoff at 3.0. You mention you have great LORs. That's awesome - too many people overlook the importance of solid recommendations. That said, if you don't meet the GPA/MCAT sliding scale cutoff they'll never get read, which is a bummer.

Oh, and on that note, as you said you're going to want to retake your MCAT. 27 is, to the best of my knowledge, below both the DO and MD average. Take as many months as necessary to set yourself up for success.

If you're looking for a program, I'd recommend something that provides flexibility while remaining affordable.

Hello everyone.. I've been reading the threads for some time now and appreciate all the insight you all share. I'm considering a career change into medicine. Currently, I work in investment management but am getting burned out and disinterested. I have always been interested in medicine and science but never pursued it. Prior to my work in finance I worked as a health care advocate, battling insurance companies on behalf of patients.

Based on what I've been reading here at the forums, I don't know if I have a realistic chance at a post bac or eve med school. I want to solicit some opinions here and see what people think.
A little about me.. dual major undergrad in economics and health policy. Ugpa 2.8. Crappy, I know. I wasn't ready for school.. but I did it. Grades trend strongly upwards.
I'm 1/4 of the way through an MBA program (while working full time). From what I've read, graduate GPA won't matter for admissions for med school, however, my GPA is currently a 3.8. I performed strongly on the GREs, particularly the quantitative section. I also have volunteered ~ 500 hours at The Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania.

Do I have any shot at a postbac program, specifically in or around philadelphia? Will postbac programs also consider graduate GPAs for admissions? Would it be better to do post bac on my own and not thru any official program? Thanks for your help!

From what I've read around here, graduate GPA (outside of SMPs) are viewed as nice extracurricular activities. Good grades may not necessarily help you, but it certainly won't hurt you. The reason behind this is that they have no clue as to what type of grading policy your program has instituted. I know people who have waltzed through their MBA with a 3.9/4.0, while others have fought tooth and nail for a 3.0.

I'm not sure about your competitiveness for the Philly programs. Have you taken any undergraduate science classes? What was your sGPA in undergrad? All GPA numbers were calculated using the AMCAS calculator (google is your friend), right? Do you want a less-structured, do-it-yourself type program or a formal, highly structured one?

 

[DrMidlife]

What about a post-bacc? I've read that post-baccs can help people with low GPAs.

"Post-bacc" is not a helpful term here - all it means is taking more classes after you have a bachelors. Doing a 2nd bachelors is a postbac. Doing Harvard Extension or Berkeley Extension is a postbac. Taking classes at a CC (not too many!) is a postbac. Big name formal structured premed programs like Bryn Mawr/Goucher/Scripps are postbacs (into which you can't get because your GPA is too low). Some people call SMPs postbacs (which makes no sense if there's a masters degree on the other side).

What you need is to find a school (or schools) that will let you take a TON of science coursework, where you have the opportunity to get a TON of A's. I suggest you need at least one more year of full time undergrad (all science) probably followed by an SMP, if you want to get into a US MD school. If you want to go to a DO school, look into the MS programs hosted at DO schools.

With regard to a second major, could that be a non-science major? It's the biology and chemistry courses that I've made C's and B-'s in, but I've made A's in non-science classes. I'm worried that if I just take non-science classes to act as GPA boosters, admissions will notice a discrepancy between my sGPA and cGPA, and will figure I took courses just to "stuff" my cGPA. Is this a problem or a solution?

If you want to go to law school, sure, do non-science. But if you want to go to med school, then you need to prove you can get a lot of A's in a very heavy load of hard science coursework over a long period of time.

While I do hope that eventually I can do well in a chemistry class, my question is what's a good idea until I find what it takes to "click?"

If you've got money to spend, you could get a chemistry grad student to work with you individually as if you're taking a class, but without affecting your GPA.

But come on. You're talking about med school and you're talking about having no clue how to get A's in science. If you want to figure this out, get serious. Make what you want what you need. Find the 19 year olds who get great grades on exams and interrogate them about exactly what, in detail, they do to get those great grades on exams. Go take a couple of lower level math/stats/science classes at a CC to get more practice. Spend all your spare time on khanacademy. Question everything in what happens to you during a test and tell yourself the truth. You are very simply not going to find a pill or a technique that removes this problem: you have to figure it out.

For instance, how does retaking courses before graduation compare to taking them after graduation (post-bacc)?

An MD/DO app calculates your cumulative undergrad GPA including postbac courses. It also breaks your undergrad GPA into fr/so/jr/sr/pb. It also divides all of these into science, non-science and overall. And then med schools can do whatever they want with those numbers. You'd need to look through some med school admissions website FAQs to see specific weightings.

I've heard that it's more difficult to raise your GPA after graduation than before.

OK, why would that be true? Is there something other than math going on in a GPA calc? No. Is there something magical about graduating that changes the math in a GPA calc? No. What's true is that a big pile of numbers that averages out to a 3 stays very close to a 3 as you throw 4's on that pile. If it took you 4 years to get a 3.0, and you do 4 more years at a 4.0, you'd end up with a 3.5. It's just math.

But I've also heard that joining the workforce for a bit (so, after I've my degree) is not a bad idea. What are your thoughts?

Getting a job and paying your own rent is a very good idea for anybody who wants to learn about responsibility and independence. Those things lead to maturity, and they lead to opportunities for leadership. Maturity, leadership, responsibility, and independence are great things for a doctor to have.

Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

I'm a Canadian applicant from BC so would like to ask a question about how US schools look at non-degree courses.

Every college course you ever take is considered in med school admissions. You're required to submit every transcript when you apply. Whether you get a degree or not isn't part of GPA calcs.

The instruction manual for AMCAS explains all of this quite well. https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/amcas/how_to_apply/

Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

I have a ~2.75 in both cGPA and sGPA. I did relatively well early on in freshman/sophomore year, but personal problems (failed relationship, depression, passing away of a close relative, minor relapse into depression) hit my GPA hard. Much of the reason why I want to apply to a post-bacc program is to bring up the awful GPA and/or to prove that I can handle graduate-level coursework, and from what I gathered a post-bacc was one way to go about those goals.

Whatever you mean by "postbac program", what you need is a whole bunch of A's in a whole bunch of additional undergrad classes, mostly hard science.

From a 2.75, you need at least 2 more years (60+ semester hours) of undergrad, for two reasons. Reason #1: less than 2 years of work won't be enough to get you up over 3.0. If you don't get up over 3.0, you will have a much harder time getting med schools (or SMPs) to view you as viable. Reason #2: you need to show that you can do very well over multiple years of difficult coursework, because that's what med school is, and that's what med school admissions committees are looking for in applicants.

As you obsessively read the existing, thorough information in this forum, you'll see how thousands of people have attacked this exact problem. A 2nd bachelors is an option that gives you some federal loans, and registration priority, and other benefits like advising and clubs and such. Harvard Extension and Berkeley Extension and UT Dallas are examples of non-degree programs that offer some structure and tons of science. DO schools offer traditional grad study that gets people into med school.

The standard, predictable, reliable formula for getting into med school does not include steps for recovering from a low GPA. You have to be considerably more mature and resourceful than a squeaky-clean 21 year old who never did anything wrong.

You'll have to do the work to figure out how to pay for additional undergrad schooling. Avoid credit cards and avoid private loans, because these are unsustainable in med ed.

Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

Prior to my work in finance I worked as a health care advocate, battling insurance companies on behalf of patients.

Love that EC.

Based on what I've been reading here at the forums, I don't know if I have a realistic chance at a post bac or eve med school. I want to solicit some opinions here and see what people think.

You need to demonstrate that you can succeed under a heavy undergrad load of mostly science to get into med school. As in the above 3 posts, there are lots of ways to acquire that heavy undergrad load of mostly science.

Grades trend strongly upwards.

Good. If you haven't taken any science, the good news is that your science GPA could be nice and high. The bad news is that the math & science you need to prepare for med school is likely much more difficult than any coursework you've ever seen, so getting A's isn't a given.

I'm 1/4 of the way through an MBA program (while working full time). From what I've read, graduate GPA won't matter for admissions for med school, however, my GPA is currently a 3.8.

An MBA is completely non-predictive of medical school performance, and thus it has no bearing on the med school admissions impact of your undergrad GPA. If your MBA GPA was low, that would be a red flag.

If you're able to produce a demonstration of academic prowess in undergrad science, you will then get the opportunity to show how interesting you are (in addition to being a credible applicant) because you have a deep understanding of health policy/econ/biz. Keep up with current events by following NYT/WSJ health news.

Best of luck to you.

 

[mfas]

I have cgpa of 2.85, sgpa of 3.45 undergrad, and am currently in grad program in cellular biology. I did no science and got bad grades in all of those classes for the first 2.5 years undergrad. I knocked out all my pre reqs in the next 2.5 years, taking 3-4 science courses per semester with 2 upper level courses in there. I received B's and above in all of my science work. I took the Mcat 4 years ago and got 25o, and know I will do better 2nd time around. I'm doing research and taking hard sciences in grad school with >3.5gpa. Do I have a shot at D.O. Without retaking classes like french or theater crafts from 7+ years ago?

 

[DrMidlife]

I have cgpa of 2.85, sgpa of 3.45 undergrad, and am currently in grad program in cellular biology. I did no science and got bad grades in all of those classes for the first 2.5 years undergrad. I knocked out all my pre reqs in the next 2.5 years, taking 3-4 science courses per semester with 2 upper level courses in there. I received B's and above in all of my science work. I took the Mcat 4 years ago and got 25o, and know I will do better 2nd time around. I'm doing research and taking hard sciences in grad school with >3.5gpa. Do I have a shot at D.O. Without retaking classes like french or theater crafts from 7+ years ago?

Yeah, get that MCAT as high as you can and you might be okay. Definitely over 30 if you want confidence.

DMU has a hard 3.0 cutoff, so don't bother there. But other DO schools are going to look at your upward trend, your grad work, and your MCAT and take you seriously.

Best of luck to you.

 

[mfas]

Yeah, get that MCAT as high as you can and you might be okay. Definitely over 30 if you want confidence.

DMU has a hard 3.0 cutoff, so don't bother there. But other DO schools are going to look at your upward trend, your grad work, and your MCAT and take you seriously.

Best of luck to you.

Thank you.

I have wanted to hear something like this for a while and all the number lovers have said no! my position academically made sense that I look competitive barring all my early issues. I didn't think that retaking the non science courses killing my gpa made sense considering how old they are. I have began studying and will be ready to beast the mcat in june to hopefully be fully applied with these fresh scores in July.

Heres to hope.

 

[tyrionlannister]

This is the most interesting thread. All sorts of folks with all kinds of origins and outlooks. I flamed out of college my first time around ten years ago. I didn't even withdraw from my last semester. So, after recently finishing my undergrad degree, my cgpa is 3.17 and my sgpa is 3.31. On the AMCAS application, it looks like this for cgpa/sgpa by year:
Freshman: 1.15/1.29, Sophomore: 2.22/1.71, Junior: 4.00/4.00, Senior: 3.73/3.67

So, my grades tell the story that I am able to get the results when I have focus, so I'm not too worried about perception. What I am worried about is that my low gpa will make a school not want me so as to not hurt their statistics. My MCAT is a 38Q, taken almost 1 year ago. Will my high test score be enough to balance out my crap gpa? Thanks to anyone with thoughts on this.

 

[johnnyscans]

This is the most interesting thread. All sorts of folks with all kinds of origins and outlooks. I flamed out of college my first time around ten years ago. I didn't even withdraw from my last semester. So, after recently finishing my undergrad degree, my cgpa is 3.17 and my sgpa is 3.31. On the AMCAS application, it looks like this for cgpa/sgpa by year:
Freshman: 1.15/1.29, Sophomore: 2.22/1.71, Junior: 4.00/4.00, Senior: 3.73/3.67

So, my grades tell the story that I am able to get the results when I have focus, so I'm not too worried about perception. What I am worried about is that my low gpa will make a school not want me so as to not hurt their statistics. My MCAT is a 38Q, taken almost 1 year ago. Will my high test score be enough to balance out my crap gpa? Thanks to anyone with thoughts on this.

Do you always pay your debts?

All kidding aside I think if you apply broadly and early you stand a good chance of earning an acceptance.

 

[DrMidlife]

This is the most interesting thread. All sorts of folks with all kinds of origins and outlooks. I flamed out of college my first time around ten years ago. I didn't even withdraw from my last semester. So, after recently finishing my undergrad degree, my cgpa is 3.17 and my sgpa is 3.31. On the AMCAS application, it looks like this for cgpa/sgpa by year:
Freshman: 1.15/1.29, Sophomore: 2.22/1.71, Junior: 4.00/4.00, Senior: 3.73/3.67

So, my grades tell the story that I am able to get the results when I have focus, so I'm not too worried about perception. What I am worried about is that my low gpa will make a school not want me so as to not hurt their statistics. My MCAT is a 38Q, taken almost 1 year ago. Will my high test score be enough to balance out my crap gpa? Thanks to anyone with thoughts on this.

That's a great last 2 years, and I think your story will have folks rooting for you. Your MD app results will be hit or miss, because you have no control over what kind of eyeballs will review your app. I definitely think you should apply this June with the best app you can put together, so that you don't "lose" that 38Q.

See the reapplicant forum for great coverage of app mistakes to avoid. You can't control your GPA calc, but you can control lots of other things that sink the unprepared. If you don't have a ton of clinical exposure yet, start right away - like this afternoon.

Best of luck to you.

 

[tyrionlannister]

That's a great last 2 years, and I think your story will have folks rooting for you. Your MD app results will be hit or miss, because you have no control over what kind of eyeballs will review your app. I definitely think you should apply this June with the best app you can put together, so that you don't "lose" that 38Q.

See the reapplicant forum for great coverage of app mistakes to avoid. You can't control your GPA calc, but you can control lots of other things that sink the unprepared. If you don't have a ton of clinical exposure yet, start right away - like this afternoon.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks for the encouraging words. I've been a full-time clinical hemodialysis technician for 4 and 1/2 years, so I'm hoping that works in my favor as well.

 

[tyrionlannister]

There are some schools that will screen your application out based on things like a <3.2gpa or a low MCAT, but there are also many great schools that don't engage in these screening practices. Your application as a whole tells a story about who you are, and some adcoms look for the (relatively common) situation where someone doesn't find their direction until a little later in life. If you can show them you have the ability with good recent grades in tough course loads and good MCAT scores, and if you can show them you have the will with clinical experience, then that's a story that's convincing. Withdraws from a decade ago don't matter if they obviously don't reflect who you are now.

 

[DrMidlife]

So, with that said, I am officially joining the Low GPA thread.

I just went today from feeling like I had a fighting chance to get into med school, to feeling rather like I now have no chance.

If you read this low GPA thread, you'll learn stuff about your chances. There have been vast hordes of 3.15's who asked WAMC and were answered in this thread. Many go on to med school after doing the work to recover.

I graduate in May, and planned to begin right thereafter with a postbac. Should I redirect myself now and save time and money, taking a different direction? Am I out of the running?

If you're willing to quit, then quit. Otherwise, go after a GPA comeback like your career depends on it (because it does).

I've been told 7 W's is the absolute cutoff point.

There's no "cutoff" for W's much less an absolute cutoff. I think I had 7 or 8. Don't get any more. Be able to explain what you learned & why it won't happen again (even though it was 10 years ago).

Best of luck to you.