The **NEW & IMPROVED** official low gpa thread...

[DrMidlife]

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I am not sure if it is a right place to ask the question, but here is the situation.
I am graduating this August from Canadian University and my stats are really not good enough for this coming app cycle, but I want to try to submit the application for couple of SMPs and mid-low tier schools just to see how the process goes and familiarize myself with AMCAS application etc, while improving my stats. Is it a good idea or being a re-applicant next year will change smth for me?

AMCAS isn't an app service for SMPs. SMPs have their own individual processes. That said, it's a great idea to fill out (and not submit) an AMCAS app as part of your SMP application.

Being a reapplicant does have a downside. It's not a good idea to resubmit the same app, which means that the investment in essays and activity descriptions and such can't be recycled. It's expensive to apply. If there are some schools in which you're particularly interested, having a first "throwaway" application at those schools is a permanent impression that you have to account for the next time you apply - they keep all your apps and compare them side by side.

So I'd recommend familiarizing yourself with AMCAS by filling out (and not submitting) an app as a supplement to your SMP apps. Wait to apply to med school until you have your best possible app.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Sakeena]

Thanks a lot for advise!!!

 

[gbilla]

I've been reading this thread for a few days and I'm really impressed with all the help people on this thread give each other!

I was wondering what you guys think the best way forward for me would be? My stats are

UCLA Neurosci

cGPA:3.1
sGPA: 3.1
MCAT 1: 34L (12B, 11P, 11V)
MCAT 2: 35N (12B, 8V, 15V)
ECs: 2 years research, some shadowing, VERY little clinical volunteering.

Based on what I've learned reading this thread right now I'm planning to take 15-20 units at UC Berkeley extension this spring, find somewhere to get those clinical hours, and apply to SMPs for the Fall 2012 cycle (probably Georgetown, EVMS, UCin, Drexel). Does this make sense or will I need more post-bacc work to boost GPA to have a shot at MDs?

 

[davidb25]

Hey DrMidlife I was wondering what you thought about my situation:

I'm a senior and as of this fall semester I have a cGPA 2.56 and an sGPA 2.3, both GPA's largely effected by an F in Gen Chem 2. I have a slight-upward trend but nothing too special, I'm still struggling to figure out the best way to crank out A's, only problem is I ran out of time, it's my last semester.

What I was thinking of doing was applying to UT-Dallas Biomed Certificate in the spring so I could attend in the fall, though that assumes I'll get in. I plan on telling UT-dallas all about a couple unfortunate circumstances my freshman and sophomore year and I hope that will help them give me a shot at their program. Also, I'm a URM and while I don't like to say that it should help me, I thought I'd disclose it here incase you thought it might have weight in a state like Texas.

Does this sound logical, doing a post-bac of a year with such a low GPA? I think I'm on the cusp of realizing how to succeed in my classes as I had my best semester yet, 5 classes two A's, 3 B's this last semester. Assuming I get a ~3.6-3.7(unlikely, but I'm going to try like I've never tried before) gpa next semester, I'll graduate with ~2.7 cumulative. Assuming I get into this two semester post-bac, doing the math, I could theoretically have my cGPA approach 3.1 and sgpa approach 2.9.

I was thinking about studying for and taking the mcat the summer between my senior year of college and before first semester of the post-bac and hopefully getting ~31. Then broadly applying all over texas and to schools outside which may have special consideration for URM's like the GEMS program.

Does this sound logical? Too optomisitic? Any advice appreciated.

Here's my way-below-3.0 cookbook: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=11083370&postcount=3

UTD is a good place to be, and keeping your Texas residency is a good idea. I suggest you need multiple more years of undergrad, which UTD should allow. Down the road, you'll probably need to take advantage of a program like Georgetown GEMS (URM/disadvantaged med school prep). I don't know of similar URM/disadvantaged programs in Texas.

You need more than 1 additional undergrad year to get ready for the rigors of med school. Be thinking 2nd bachelors. UTD isn't the only option - it's just set up nicely for premeds.

I don't like that schedule - it's too fast. Take the MCAT after you've completed another full time year of undergrad science at 3.7+. Before that happens, you're not on top of the MCAT subject material and not in a position to succeed.

Yep. Don't put too much thought into applying to med school yet - you have a long row to hoe before it's time to apply.

I recommend taking it slow. Don't be in a hurry to get into med school. Given your GPA, I think it's a safe assumption that several more successful years in school, before med school, would make med school a reasonable place to be. Be very afraid of how hard med school is, and do everything you can to be ready. Be your own yardstick - pay no attention to how the other premeds are doing it. A premed with a way-below-3.0 doesn't get to follow the same rulebook as the high GPA kids.

Best of luck to you.

I know your advice is to take it slow and that you don't recommend me taking the MCAT after preparing for it during the summer, but I feel I can do well on the MCAT even though my GPA doesn't reflect it. I'm afraid if I don't study/take the MCAT this summer what else can I do to get closer to being competitive applicant?

I was thinking that I continue volunteering at the ER I volunteer at, maybe shadow a physican as well, and study for and take the MCAT. If I'm scoring in the 30+'s on practice FL's I take the MCAT. If not, put it off again until I'm done with a year or two of post-bac. How do you feel about that scenario?

 

[DrMidlife]

I know your advice is to take it slow and that you don't recommend me taking the MCAT after preparing for it during the summer, but I feel I can do well on the MCAT even though my GPA doesn't reflect it.

If you score above average (31+) on multiple FLs before the exam, go ahead.

What we see around here, quite a bit, is high practice test scores that aren't reflected on test day. My theory is this: those who successfully worked the most problems in the prereqs are the most prepared to get hit with anything during an MCAT exam. Practice tests are recycled from year to year; MCATs are not. That said, the only predictor we have for MCAT performance is practice tests.

I'm afraid if I don't study/take the MCAT this summer what else can I do to get closer to being competitive applicant?

The MCAT is not blocking you from med school. Your undergrad GPA is blocking you. Every class you take from here out, honestly, you have to get an A. And every A you get is a step towards med school.

So I suggest taking some classes and getting some A's, if you want to make progress.

I was thinking that I continue volunteering at the ER I volunteer at, maybe shadow a physican as well, and study for and take the MCAT. If I'm scoring in the 30+'s on practice FL's I take the MCAT. If not, put it off again until I'm done with a year or two of post-bac. How do you feel about that scenario?

Yes. The opportunity cost of this: if it turns out you aren't ready to hit over 30, then you spent the summer not making progress. The very concept of retaking the MCAT is painful, because prep is so time consuming, thus I recommend taking it only once when you're best positioned to succeed.

Also: MCAT scores expire. If you're not able to get a competitive med school app together within about 2 years of your exam score, you have to retake. Yuck.

Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

Since you asked.

-3.18 BCPM, 3.33

So, you realize this is low? Are you applying DO only?

For MD or DO you'll be considered a risky applicant, when reviewers consider your ability to thrive under a heavy load of all science for multiple years (which is med school). Usually this ability is demonstrated by high GPA.

By contrast, a strong MCAT score is supposed to demonstrate that you can do well on hours-long standardized tests (which there are lots of in med school and beyond). So, get that 35+ by all means, if you can, but a 35+ still leaves you exposed to concern about GPA.

Whether you apply in June or not is up to you, but I suggest you aren't ready to apply due to a low undergrad GPA. Do you know what an SMP is?

Also, I'm not entirely sure of my residency situation (grew up in NY, parents in CA, currently living in IL). My parents want me to go to med school in CA, but I know these states are among the most competitive (if I remember correctly in the post by DrMidlife, around .05 seats per applicant). Assuming I can choose my state residency, which I would have to look up the policy on this, which state should I apply for?

You can't choose your state residency, not really. If your or your parents established a domicile in CA, you can claim CA. If your or your parents previously had a domicile on NY, ie they paid state taxes for a large chunk of your childhood, you can likely claim NY. A domicile means you are licensed to drive, registered to vote, paying sales tax, paying rent/mortgage/prop taxes, and typically working at a job. (The point of this is to ensure that state X's payers of state taxes aren't funding education for state Y's kids.)

You probably can't claim IL unless you're financially independent and you worked to support yourself prior to attending school in IL, or your parents lived and worked there too.

You generally can't get in-state residency if you were only in the state to attend school. You have to submit your driver's license, your parents' tax return (to show if you were a dependent), your voter registration, etc.

Best of luck to you.

 

[obeserabbit]

Hey guys, my cGPA is 3.28 and my sGPA is 3.17. I haven't taken the MCAT yet and I'm currently in an SMP. I was thinking of taking some more classes next summer and I had a few questions...

Am I restricted to only upper-division bio courses? Or do adcoms also look favorably on upper-division chem/physics/etc? I've taken many of the science courses such as immunology, genetics, microbiology, etc both in undergrad and in my SMP - would it make sense to retake these classes? What about taking non-science courses simply to boost GPA, i.e. language courses, psychology, etc? Do people do this, or is it looked down upon by adcoms?

 

[DrMidlife]

Am I restricted to only upper-division bio courses?

No. Who would do this restricting?

Or do adcoms also look favorably on upper-division chem/physics/etc?

Sure they do.

I've taken many of the science courses such as immunology, genetics, microbiology, etc both in undergrad and in my SMP - would it make sense to retake these classes?

What for? Are you doing poorly in the SMP?

PS: omg just take the MCAT already.

What about taking non-science courses simply to boost GPA, i.e. language courses, psychology, etc? Do people do this, or is it looked down upon by adcoms?

Don't take fluff. Lower division intro courses, after receiving a degree, are taken for one reason only in med school admissions.

If you're thinking about more undergrad because you're not doing well in the SMP, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Best of luck to you.

 

[vchou]

Thank you for the response DrMidlife!

To be honest, I haven't considered SMP because I didn't want to think of any more gap years. I was also thinking about applying to MD schools only, but I know I should apply to DO schools as well. I guess it was naive to ignore the possibility of DO and SMP. After a little research, I came across Tulane ACP, EVMS, UC, Drexel, etc. However, if I do well on my MCATs, I am still set on applying for MD and DO schools this June. If my MCAT is not as great as I hoped, I will go the SMP route and then apply.

The only thing that's keeping me hopeful is the chart from AAMC of acceptances based on MCAT and GPA. According to this, with a 33-35 MCAT and 3.20-3.39 GPA I have a 51.3% chance. But then again I hear this chart isn't all that accurate or something.

 

[deleted248403]

The only thing that's keeping me hopeful is the chart from AAMC of acceptances based on MCAT and GPA. According to this, with a 33-35 MCAT and 3.20-3.39 GPA I have a 51.3% chance. But then again I hear this chart isn't all that accurate or something.

The problem with that chart is that you can't see URM status or in-state status. Those two things swing things heavily.

Some schools are in-state students only or heavily favour URMs so if you are neither of those then that doesn't help, and those stats are misleading.

Not to be blunt, but I wouldn't take much hope from that table. Your GPA is a killer, and everyone thinks theyll rock the MCAT (33+) but statistically very few do.

 

[vchou]

Haha oh yeah that's what it was. As an asian male with CA residency, I guess its not a very good representation of my chances. Thanks for the clarification robflanker.

Hypothetically speaking, if you had 3.18 BCPM (3.33 cumulative) with a 33+ MCAT, would you go the SMP route or just take your chances and apply broadly?

 

[DrMidlife]

Hypothetically speaking, if you had 3.18 BCPM (3.33 cumulative) with a 33+ MCAT, would you go the SMP route or just take your chances and apply broadly?

SMP, no question. However, without a decent MCAT score, you don't have a strong SMP app. SMPs are competitive too.

Please keep in mind that you don't have that 33+ in the pocket. Practice tests are the only predictors we have, and unfortunately they're not great predictors.

Note that the UCs don't accept SMP-in-progress as an app asset - you have to finish the SMP and then apply for consideration at UCs.

Best of luck to you.

 

[obeserabbit]

No. Who would do this restricting?

Sure they do.

What for? Are you doing poorly in the SMP?

PS: omg just take the MCAT already.

Don't take fluff. Lower division intro courses, after receiving a degree, are taken for one reason only in med school admissions.

If you're thinking about more undergrad because you're not doing well in the SMP, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks for the reply. So far, I'm doing fine in the SMP, but I'm thinking about taking more undergrad just to raise my GPA and strengthen my application.

 

[vchou]

Note that the UCs don't accept SMP-in-progress as an app asset - you have to finish the SMP and then apply for consideration at UCs.

That blows about the UCs.

How do you feel about Loyola's MAMS compared with other programs? From what I see, it's a lot more expensive, it's an MA instead of an MS, and you don't compete with med students. But it says 75% of its students get into med programs after, and if you have 3.5GPA in their program with 30 on the MCAT, you automatically get into Loyola's Stritch. It's also convenient because I'm in Chicago, but their tuition definitely isn't. Cost of living isn't too bad though, I can find sublets for about 400, although definitely not the nicest places.

Again, thanks for the advice! I'd be lost if it weren't for SDN and its wonderfully helpful community.

**Edit: Just found DrMidlife's thread on all SMPs. Amazing. Thank you.

 

[obeserabbit]

That blows about the UCs.

How do you feel about Loyola's MAMS compared with other programs? From what I see, it's a lot more expensive, it's an MA instead of an MS, and you don't compete with med students. But it says 75% of its students get into med programs after, and if you have 3.5GPA in their program with 30 on the MCAT, you automatically get into Loyola's Stritch. It's also convenient because I'm in Chicago, but their tuition definitely isn't. Cost of living isn't too bad though, I can find sublets for about 400, although definitely not the nicest places.

Again, thanks for the advice! I'd be lost if it weren't for SDN and its wonderfully helpful community.

**Edit: Just found DrMidlife's thread on all SMPs. Amazing. Thank you.

i think a 3.5/30 only guarantees you an interview

 

[vchou]

"A guaranteed admission interview at the Loyola University Chicago Stritch School of Medicine for students who achieve a GPA in MAMS of 3.5 or higher and whose most recent MCAT score is a 30 or higher."

You're right, I missed the word "interview" in that sentence. My brain reads what it wants.

 

[DrMidlife]

For what it's worth, I like Loyola MAMS, and I've met 2 people (one on each coast) who rescued a 3.1-ish med school app with that program. It's not a do-the-first-year-of-med-school-as-an-audition-for-med-school SMP, but it gets low GPAs into med school. Boom.

As for program costs, I suggest that the generic low-GPA-non-URM Californian has no choice but to invest a lot of time and a lot of money to get into a US MD school anywhere. Plan to have a quarter million in med school loans. If you get lucky and get into a UC and you only have $150k in med school loans, that's a bonus. Gotta pay to play.

Also, not directed at anybody in particular: private student loans are completely inconsistent with a low GPA comeback. If you have some, read the fine print on your master promissory note about deferments and repayment before you sign up for an SMP.

Best of luck to you.

 

[vchou]

It's definitely good to hear success stories for low GPAers that went through SMPs. Does anyone know about Rosalind Franklin's MSBS program? I can't seem to find much in the archives or its website about how its students are doing in recent years, as in percentage of them getting accepted or promises of guaranteed interviews.

Thanks for the heads up about the loans, I'll bet not paying attention to the fine print can really screw you over.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Hi all. Just found this thread and I have to say it is really informative, so I'd like to contribute my story! I got my BS in engineering in 2010 and I've been doing an informal post-bacc at my local university, taking classes whenever I can afford them. I graduated with a cGPA of 3.4 and a sGPA of 3.25. Currently I'm at a cGPA of 3.5 and a sGPA of 3.4, which will hopefully be a 3.5 after the 2 classes I'm taking this spring. I'm taking the MCAT in 2 weeks and have been averaging a little over 32. I'm hoping to at least hit my average, but you can never be too sure until you get your scores back. I've been volunteering at a hospital the past 2 years, and should have about a year's worth of non-clinical volunteering by the time I apply. My other ECs include 8 years of work at a golf course, with two years as a supervisor, a lot of hours teaching golf to kids, and about 50 hours of shadowing. I'm planning on applying in June, as early as I possibly can. Does this seem like a solid plan, given my stats, or are more post-bac needed? I would really like to just go through this process once, if at all possible. Thanks, and good luck to all the others in this thread!

 

[DrMidlife]

UCLA Neurosci

cGPA:3.1
sGPA: 3.1
MCAT 1: 34L (12B, 11P, 11V)
MCAT 2: 35N (12B, 8V, 15V)
ECs: 2 years research, some shadowing, VERY little clinical volunteering.

Based on what I've learned reading this thread right now I'm planning to take 15-20 units at UC Berkeley extension this spring, find somewhere to get those clinical hours, and apply to SMPs for the Fall 2012 cycle (probably Georgetown, EVMS, UCin, Drexel). Does this make sense or will I need more post-bacc work to boost GPA to have a shot at MDs?

Your MCAT will get you into an SMP. Anything you can do to pump up your undergrad will help, with SMPs and then with med schools.

Get going on clinical volunteering; this isn't optional.

Best of luck to you.

 

[deleted248403]

I have the option of taking an upper level biology course (Biology of Cancer) or an upper level chemistry class (Biophysical Chemistry). The cancer Bio class is 3 units but also more conveniently scheduled. The biophysical chemistry class is 1 unit more but also less convenient.

Is there any one class that would look better on my transcript? Thanks!

No difference

 

[johnnyscans]

Hi all. Just found this thread and I have to say it is really informative, so I'd like to contribute my story! I got my BS in engineering in 2010 and I've been doing an informal post-bacc at my local university, taking classes whenever I can afford them. I graduated with a cGPA of 3.4 and a sGPA of 3.25. Currently I'm at a cGPA of 3.5 and a sGPA of 3.4, which will hopefully be a 3.5 after the 2 classes I'm taking this spring. I'm taking the MCAT in 2 weeks and have been averaging a little over 32. I'm hoping to at least hit my average, but you can never be too sure until you get your scores back. I've been volunteering at a hospital the past 2 years, and should have about a year's worth of non-clinical volunteering by the time I apply. My other ECs include 8 years of work at a golf course, with two years as a supervisor, a lot of hours teaching golf to kids, and about 50 hours of shadowing. I'm planning on applying in June, as early as I possibly can. Does this seem like a solid plan, given my stats, or are more post-bac needed? I would really like to just go through this process once, if at all possible. Thanks, and good luck to all the others in this thread!

I'm going to jump around a lot in my answer, so I apologize ahead of time if it's hard to follow.

-Do you have a compelling reason why you are pursuing a career in medicine. With a 2010 graduation date some adcoms may read into this as you simply being unmotivated. Make sure your essay paints a clear, vivid picture of why you are choosing a career in medicine. That said, 8 years of work experience at a single job means you're dedicated, and will hopefully provide you with a really good LOR. I'm in a similar boat with one of my past jobs - 6 summers of work experience + leadership experience running two separate youth programs.

-A 3.5 cGPA/3.5sGPA with a >3.7 post-bacc GPA is not too far off from the average. Do you have any type of upward trend? How many post-bacc credits have you taken if you smoke your MCAT you have a shot at MD and a very good chance at DO. My opinion - it all comes down to your MCAT. How are you at taking tests? No really, are you going to be able to show up on test day with 100% confidence in your ability to get above a 32 (the MD average)?

-When you apply with one of your credentials below average (in your case, GPA), you want everything else to be above and beyond the average. If you score well on your MCAT and have a compelling personal statement and very well-written letters of recommendation AND you apply early, you should get into a US medical school (MD or DO, depending on MCAT and final GPA). If you bomb your MCAT, things may not work out as beautifully.

-An anecdote (just to back up my claim): one of my best friends was in the same position as you, except he graduated in 2008 and spent the years since then as an EMT and fire fighter. He has paid direct patient care, 2 years of clinical volunteering, LORs from top dogs in multiple departments, a post-bacc cGPA/sGPA of 3.93 and an overall cGPA/sGPA of 3.6ish. He was an assistant-chief ocean lifeguard, helped me run the two youth programs, and is generally a well-spoken, social, likable individual. He scored a 26 on his MCAT when he was averaging a 32/33 in his Kaplan course. He received zero MD interview invites and eventually 2 DO acceptances. He's always known that he was a poor test taker and it's what did him in - he refuses to invest the emotional energy into preparing for it again. When you show up to take the MCAT 2 weeks from now, be ready to kick ass.

That said, good luck. If you need to PUSH THE MCAT BACK. Do not rush it. You can take it in March/April and still get an early application in.

As I've mentioned a few times in this thread, I'm retaking a few of the core pre-reqs and upper division science to improve chances of a good SMP and med school. I'm trying to figure out my schedule next semester.

I have the option of taking an upper level biology course (Biology of Cancer) or an upper level chemistry class (Biophysical Chemistry). The cancer Bio class is 3 units but also more conveniently scheduled. The biophysical chemistry class is 1 unit more but also less convenient.

Is there any one class that would look better on my transcript? Thanks!

Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk

1 credit hour will have a minimal impact on your GPA. Choose whichever class is more convenient and will hold your interest enough to enable you to more easily earn an A. IMO, Biology of Cancer is more interesting than Biophysical Chemistry. . . but that's just my opinion. The key - get an A and don't hijack your schedule.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I'm going to jump around a lot in my answer, so I apologize ahead of time if it's hard to follow.

-Do you have a compelling reason why you are pursuing a career in medicine. With a 2010 graduation date some adcoms may read into this as you simply being unmotivated. Make sure your essay paints a clear, vivid picture of why you are choosing a career in medicine. That said, 8 years of work experience at a single job means you're dedicated, and will hopefully provide you with a really good LOR. I'm in a similar boat with one of my past jobs - 6 summers of work experience + leadership experience running two separate youth programs.

-A 3.5 cGPA/3.5sGPA with a >3.7 post-bacc GPA is not too far off from the average. Do you have any type of upward trend? How many post-bacc credits have you taken if you smoke your MCAT you have a shot at MD and a very good chance at DO. My opinion - it all comes down to your MCAT. How are you at taking tests? No really, are you going to be able to show up on test day with 100% confidence in your ability to get above a 32 (the MD average)?

-When you apply with one of your credentials below average (in your case, GPA), you want everything else to be above and beyond the average. If you score well on your MCAT and have a compelling personal statement and very well-written letters of recommendation AND you apply early, you should get into a US medical school (MD or DO, depending on MCAT and final GPA). If you bomb your MCAT, things may not work out as beautifully.

-An anecdote (just to back up my claim): one of my best friends was in the same position as you, except he graduated in 2008 and spent the years since then as an EMT and fire fighter. He has paid direct patient care, 2 years of clinical volunteering, LORs from top dogs in multiple departments, a post-bacc cGPA/sGPA of 3.93 and an overall cGPA/sGPA of 3.6ish. He was an assistant-chief ocean lifeguard, helped me run the two youth programs, and is generally a well-spoken, social, likable individual. He scored a 26 on his MCAT when he was averaging a 32/33 in his Kaplan course. He received zero MD interview invites and eventually 2 DO acceptances. He's always known that he was a poor test taker and it's what did him in - he refuses to invest the emotional energy into preparing for it again. When you show up to take the MCAT 2 weeks from now, be ready to kick ass.

That said, good luck. If you need to PUSH THE MCAT BACK. Do not rush it. You can take it in March/April and still get an early application in.

Thanks for the advice johnnyscans. Regarding the MCAT comments; I'm typically a good test taker, at least I like to think I am. However, I did take the MCAT a year ago, without being totally ready, and got a 30 (11PS/7V/12BS), so I guess this contradicts my good test taker comment a bit😳. Whatever the case, I won't walk into the MCAT unprepared again, so whether that translates to a good score or not is yet to be seen.

Regarding the upward trend; I have somewhat of an upward trend, with a 3.75 senior year, and a 3.9 over 20 post-bacc credits (will be 28 credits by the time I apply).

Lastly, I'm not sure what you mean regarding adcoms seeing my graduation date as a sign of a lack of motivation. Could you elaborate a bit? I know the gpa is a sign of lack of motivation, but I didn't know being out of school for 2 years before applying was also a red flag.

 

[johnnyscans]

Thanks for the advice johnnyscans. Regarding the MCAT comments; I'm typically a good test taker, at least I like to think I am. However, I did take the MCAT a year ago, without being totally ready, and got a 30 (11PS/7V/12BS), so I guess this contradicts my good test taker comment a bit😳. Whatever the case, I won't walk into the MCAT unprepared again, so whether that translates to a good score or not is yet to be seen.

Regarding the upward trend; I have somewhat of an upward trend, with a 3.75 senior year, and a 3.9 over 20 post-bacc credits (will be 28 credits by the time I apply).

Lastly, I'm not sure what you mean regarding adcoms seeing my graduation date as a sign of a lack of motivation. Could you elaborate a bit? I know the gpa is a sign of lack of motivation, but I didn't know being out of school for 2 years before applying was also a red flag.

My friend whose story I shared was asked on every interview why he didn't pursue medicine right out of undergrad. Maybe you wanted to complete a publication or finish a volunteer assignment, but just make sure you're ready to answer the question maturely and intelligently. You have a good answer - you were taking post-bacc credits to boost your application to enable you to get into the best school possible. I'm not questioning your motivation, just making sure that you're ready to give a mature, well though-out answer when asked about it.

In regards to your MCAT retake - Please please please make sure you are able to do better the second time around. A 30 isn't horrible. A 30 who retakes and scores <30. . . that might cause you some trouble. Scare tactics aside, good luck and kick some ass. I'm sure the additional classwork will have boosted your PS/BS, and now you know what to expect from VR.

 

[Excision]

Hi.

So I'm currently sitting on a 3.278 scGPA. I am a senior and am majoring in Cell and Molecular Biology with a minor in Chemistry. I am taking 13 hours of science credits this semester, specifically:

Endocrinology
Cancer Biology
Pathogenic Microbiology
Pathogenic Microbiology of Eukaryotes (parasitology)

Assuming I make A's in the above, that will bring my scGPA to a 3.405. I feel confident I can make these A's as I currently have an upward grade trend, and have kicked the old habits which have brought me down academically.

I plan continue post-bacc work in the Fall of 2012 and Spring of 2013 I will take the following:

Biochemistry 1 and 2 (my university has a molecular biochemistry course which I opted to take instead of taking multiple biochem courses).
Anatomy
Physiology
Pathophysiology

Assuming A's in these courses, my scGPA will be a 3.521. I could opt to retake 2 courses I made C's in (Chem II and Genetics), however, scoring A's in the courses would only bump my GPA to a 3.556. I don't believe it is worth it.

So my question, should I start thinking about a formal post bacc program? Or is my planned post bacc work in conjunction with an above average MCAT score, solid EC's, and volunteer work sufficient for application to an MD program?

Thanks

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

My friend whose story I shared was asked on every interview why he didn't pursue medicine right out of undergrad. Maybe you wanted to complete a publication or finish a volunteer assignment, but just make sure you're ready to answer the question maturely and intelligently. You have a good answer - you were taking post-bacc credits to boost your application to enable you to get into the best school possible. I'm not questioning your motivation, just making sure that you're ready to give a mature, well though-out answer when asked about it.

In regards to your MCAT retake - Please please please make sure you are able to do better the second time around. A 30 isn't horrible. A 30 who retakes and scores <30. . . that might cause you some trouble. Scare tactics aside, good luck and kick some ass. I'm sure the additional classwork will have boosted your PS/BS, and now you know what to expect from VR.

Thanks for the encouragement! I feel much better going into the MCAT this time around. Much better understanding of PS and BS topics and I haven't scored below a 10 on any of the AAMC's I have taken so far(after tons of practice VR passages).

 

[DrMidlife]

Assuming A's in these courses, my scGPA will be a 3.521.

So many sig figs! Call it a day at 3 of 'em.

I could opt to retake 2 courses I made C's in (Chem II and Genetics), however, scoring A's in the courses would only bump my GPA to a 3.556. I don't believe it is worth it.

Not necessarily correct. For MD schools, when you retake a class, it's a new grade added to all your existing grades, with no forgiveness of a previous grade for the same course. So for MD schools, retaking ochem is no more advantageous than taking a new course, from a GPA improvement standpoint. For DO schools, a retake wipes the old grade.

In your shoes I would take on some suffering to pop 3.6. And it probably wouldn't make any difference.

So my question, should I start thinking about a formal post bacc program? Or is my planned post bacc work in conjunction with an above average MCAT score, solid EC's, and volunteer work sufficient for application to an MD program?

No postbac needed. Your GPA is average. By which I mean it's within one standard deviation of the average matriculant GPA. Which means it's average. Which means half of med students had a GPA lower than yours.

If your MCAT is 31+, it won't be your stats that keep you out of med school. Point being, work on your MCAT and robustify your app.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Excision]

Not necessarily correct. For MD schools, when you retake a class, it's a new grade added to all your existing grades, with no forgiveness of a previous grade for the same course. So for MD schools, retaking ochem is no more advantageous than taking a new course, from a GPA improvement standpoint. For DO schools, a retake wipes the old grade.

The C's were included in my projected GPA calculation, in addition to the assumed A's received upon retaking those particular courses.

In your shoes I would take on some suffering to pop 3.6. And it probably wouldn't make any difference.

So you're saying I should pursue a 3.6?

Thanks

 

[medadvicewanted]

Hello, I am looking for some advice on post bacs. I have around a 2.9-3.0 UG GPA (not sure what science gpa is) Obviously I am not in prime position to be accepted into medical school and I know this. However, I still strongly desire to get into medical school. Therefore, I am looking at Post-Bacc programs and seeing whether I have a chance with my current GPA. I am thinking about Wayne State University and Toledo, however I would honestly go to any school that accepted me for a post-bacc. Can anyone offer any advice on what I should do? Furthermore, I really have no idea what to do to better improve my chances other than a post-bacc/masters program. I don't know what usual applicants for post-baccs look like and what their GPA's are. Any help is appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

 

[Isoprop]

So you're saying I should pursue a 3.6?

Thanks

The difference between a 3.55 and a 3.6 wouldn't mean much in terms of admissions. There are diminishing returns when salvaging your GPA especially if you have already 1+ years of an upward trend.

I would concentrate on MCAT at that point.

 

[Isoprop]

Hello, I am looking for some advice on post bacs. I have around a 2.9-3.0 UG GPA (not sure what science gpa is) Obviously I am not in prime position to be accepted into medical school and I know this. However, I still strongly desire to get into medical school. Therefore, I am looking at Post-Bacc programs and seeing whether I have a chance with my current GPA. I am thinking about Wayne State University and Toledo, however I would honestly go to any school that accepted me for a post-bacc. Can anyone offer any advice on what I should do? Furthermore, I really have no idea what to do to better improve my chances other than a post-bacc/masters program. I don't know what usual applicants for post-baccs look like and what their GPA's are. Any help is appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

With your GPA, I would look into noncompetitive programs with cheap in-state tuition. Something like Cleveland State University if you're an Ohio resident. You would need at least 1 year of solid post-bacc work and take the MCAT. Along with this, you need good LORs, clinical experience, volunteer experience, and possibly research experience.

From there, you can either try to take more classes to increase your GPA or try for an SMP.

GL.

 

[johnnyscans]

With your GPA, I would look into noncompetitive programs with cheap in-state tuition. Something like Cleveland State University if you're an Ohio resident. You would need at least 1 year of solid post-bacc work and take the MCAT. Along with this, you need good LORs, clinical experience, volunteer experience, and possibly research experience.

From there, you can either try to take more classes to increase your GPA or try for an SMP.

GL.

My advice exactly. When you have a weak GPA, fix it as best as possible, then make sure the rest of your application is gangbusters. You want to have varied shadowing experience, both clinical and nonclinical volunteering, solid research experience, killer LORs, a well-written personal statement and, in the case of a career-changer, a great LOR from your previous job.

My personal strategy is to take 60 credits of science coursework (both MCAT pre-reqs and upper level) to show a gigantic upward trend from undergrad to now. Outside of the classroom I stay super busy- 20-25 hrs a week volunteering in my lab, 3-6 hours of clinical volunteering a week, 3-6 hours of nonclinical volunteering a week and sporadic shadowing across multiple disciplines. I am a very good test taker and will do everything in my power to demolish the MCAT. When I send in my applications I want to be certain that the weakest part of my application is my undergraduate GPA.

Good luck.

 

[soundnin]

i never noticed this thread before, but man do i belong here!

undergrad AMCAS GPA = 3.29
undergrad AMCAS BCPM GPA = 3.20

+ post bac overall (just orgo 1&2 at HES) = 3.33
+ post bac BCPM = 3.31

MCAT = 33Q

EC:
1. many years of research. 10 publications (2 first authors) with a few in journals like Nature, Cell, and/or their sister journals.
2. just started volunteering at MGH last month (3h/week), so if i apply this cycle, i will have about 75h under my belt around June.
3. so far only 10h of shadowing under one MD. always looking for more.

... i am planning to apply to about 12-15 programs this coming cycle (2011 for 2012 matriculation), and as a backup, to apply to SMP's if i don't get any interview invites. thoughts?

I have yet to see a story on SDN about a GPA comeback into an MSTP scholarship. The advice you get here may not be all that useful. If you find that a 3.3/33 is sufficient to go MSTP (with all those pubs), please do come back and let us know.

That said, since you asked, I think your GPA is too low to apply MD much less MSTP... to let you in on where you can expect to get grilled when/if you get interviews.

maybe i wasn't clear, but i took orgo 1 and 2 postbacc and got two A's (4.0). the GPA listed is the running overall GPA...

... thanks, if some miracle happens, of course i would report it to the SDN community. i am hoping my pubs will get me noticed by adcoms.

so i'm reporting back near the end of interview season for MD/PhD (or in the middle for some programs). i ended up applying to 28 programs, 25 of them MSTP, the other 3 fully funded MD/PhD. i haven't heard back from about 4 (2 of which i most likely cannot go to because scheduling would be too tight, and the other 2 are not MSTP), received 4 MSTP interview invites, and rest rejection pre-interview (some pre-secondary).

i attended 1 interview back in september and was invited back for 2nd visit (their program interviews so many people that the 2nd visit counts as a 2nd interview). i was accepted to the program i interviewed at last week. i just attended another interview yesterday and my last one scheduled is still coming up.

so, just logging this in the low GPA applicant database as a success story, as everyone who responded to my original posts here and elsewhere all advised me to go DO (or DO/PhD) or do a postbacc or SMP! 😀 sure, i've always had 1 interviewer from each school ask about my GPA (usually the oldest faculty member who interviews me), but it's not hard to explain it when those grades are about 7-8 years old.

 

[Isoprop]

congrats! we love hearing success stories!

 

[DrMidlife]

i was accepted to the program i interviewed at last week

👍👍 I'm very happy to be wrong, and glad you came back with this report. Congrats!!!

so, just logging this in the low GPA applicant database as a success story, as everyone who responded to my original posts here and elsewhere all advised me to go DO (or DO/PhD) or do a postbacc or SMP! 😀

I clearly underestimated the weight your pubs carry.

sure, i've always had 1 interviewer from each school ask about my GPA (usually the oldest faculty member who interviews me), but it's not hard to explain it when those grades are about 7-8 years old.

I want to caution folks, about thinking that old grades don't matter in general, because of this anecdote.

Counter-anecdote: at a DO school interview, I was expected to have an explanation for every grade I ever received lower than a B. I have 25 years of transcripts. The interviewer started at the beginning (1984). When I said "we're talking about events from more than 20 years ago" the interviewer blinked, twice, and returned to my transcripts. I have no clue why they chose to interview me, if they were going to do that, and of course I got rejected.

My point is: don't assume that the distant past is past. Also: clearly, publish!

Best of luck to you.

 

[medadvicewanted]

Can I get into the Wayne State University BMS program with a 2.94 GPA? I am also taking biochem and human phys right now as "personal enrichment" I graduated in Dec. with a bachelors in psych and a minor in biology and have taken all premed requirements

 

[davidb25]

I've completed a few post-bac apps, but I'm still really discouraged. After doing the math, if I complete a year of post-bac with a ~3.8. I can basically level out both my cGPA and sGPA at 2.9-3.0.

Although the grade trend would be hugely upward, is that worth it? That GPA is still nowhere near competitive. I feel my GPA is beyond salvageable.

 

[johnnyscans]

I've completed a few post-bac apps, but I'm still really discouraged. After doing the math, if I complete a year of post-bac with a ~3.8. I can basically level out both my cGPA and sGPA at 2.9-3.0.

Although the grade trend would be hugely upward, is that worth it? That GPA is still nowhere near competitive. I feel my GPA is beyond salvageable.

You tell me if it's worth it. Do you want to be a physician or no? Are you willing to sacrifice money and sanity to get there? If you are certain that there is no other career for you, read on.

Do two years (60 credits) of post bacc work at >3.7, annihilate your MCATs (>32), apply to top SMP programs with linkages, annihilate your SMP, apply broadly and early to MD/DO. If both your cGPA and sGPA are atrocious you're going to definitely need an SMP. Sometimes low cGPA but average/above average sGPA can get in without an SMP, but you are most likely going to need one, unless you have some unbelievable research experience or EC activity.

Also...

Make sure everything outside of your GPA is the best it can be - research, volunteer, leadership, teaching, anything and everything to put you above the average candidate. A caveat though - make these items sustained, not 3 month box-checkers. Show long term commitment to activities that are both important to you and help better the lives of others. Hands down the weakest part of your application needs to be your GPA. Everything else should be flawless and exceptional.

Nothing is beyond salvageable. You're just going to have to work your ass off.

 

[davidb25]

You tell me if it's worth it. Do you want to be a physician or no? Are you willing to sacrifice money and sanity to get there? If you are certain that there is no other career for you, read on.

Do two years (60 credits) of post bacc work at >3.7, annihilate your MCATs (>32), apply to top SMP programs with linkages, annihilate your SMP, apply broadly and early to MD/DO. If both your cGPA and sGPA are atrocious you're going to definitely need an SMP. Sometimes low cGPA but average/above average sGPA can get in without an SMP, but you are most likely going to need one, unless you have some unbelievable research experience or EC activity.

Also...

Make sure everything outside of your GPA is the best it can be - research, volunteer, leadership, teaching, anything and everything to put you above the average candidate. A caveat though - make these items sustained, not 3 month box-checkers. Show long term commitment to activities that are both important to you and help better the lives of others. Hands down the weakest part of your application needs to be your GPA. Everything else should be flawless and exceptional.

Nothing is beyond salvageable. You're just going to have to work your ass off.

I absolutely want it, unfortunately for me I double majored in biology and economics. I've taken a boat-load of credits already and the economist in me makes is making it hard to ignore the obviously daunting opportunity costs that this path will likely have.

As of now, I'm not a very strong student. I know I can work at it but as of now I know the possibility of failure is very real. I'm very nervous to invest more of my parents money, and more of my own money in loans in something that may never happen.

 

[johnnyscans]

I absolutely want it, unfortunately for me I double majored in biology and economics. I've taken a boat-load of credits already and the economist in me makes is making it hard to ignore the obviously daunting opportunity costs that this path will likely have.

As of now, I'm not a very strong student. I know I can work at it but as of now I know the possibility of failure is very real. I'm very nervous to invest more of my parents money, and more of my own money in loans in something that may never happen.

What has caused you to be a poor student in the past? If you're planning on pursuing this path you better be damned sure you can get A's. If you think undergraduate is tough, you're in for a rude awakening once you hit that little thing called medical school.

Maybe try one class at first. See if you can get an A. Then go from there.

 

[kt275]

Hi thank you very much for sharing!
I was hoping you would enlighten me with the type of program you enrolled in at Drexel.
I am in a similar situation as you were once in, so I am looking for several programs to enroll in for this fall. Thank you in advance.

 

[kt275]

Wanted to take a second and post an update on this thread. I am an M2 and I am now on my LAST major class of my preclinical curriculum. Things have been going really well, and I have had no real trouble getting the grades I want to get in med school which I am so thankful for! I am starting to prep for both my COMLEX and USLME in the next few months and getting married in a month ahhhh! Good luck to anyone that might be interviewing right now, and congrats to anyone who may have gotten an acceptance this cycle!


Just a little about my background:

Graduated in 2006 from a small no name SUNY school with a 2.45 GPA and something like a 1.5 science GPA. Had started working in healthcare in undergrad and was interested in medicine but couldnt pull it together. Graduated, got my clinical lab scientist licensure (MT) and started working in a lab. I was really loving it, and I took 2 classes at Syracuse University and got As. Inspired I decided to try to take the MCAT. Enrolled in Kaplan, 27O. I applied to about 20 post bacc programs, got rejected to all but 1. Moved to Philly in 2007 to start at Drexel University. After my first year I have a 3.95 GPA. I apply to medical school (DO only) and end up getting 5 interviews. I got one acceptance 2 WLs and 2 rejections out of those interviews! The school wasnt my first choice, but I had done it! The summer before I was going to matriculate I had a severe eye injury causing my retina to detach in that eye. I had emergency surgery but was left with visual issues and headaches for months. I decided to defer for a year to let my eye heal and start school on better footing. During my year off I worked full time, in a lab as always, but I ended up reapplying to PCOM bc I wanted to stay in Philly. Ended up getting an interview on the very first day of interviews in the 2009 cycle!!! Accepted about a month later. PCOM really was like my ultimate school and at 7500 interviews for 1 seat in my class I am incredibly lucky. I overcame such a horrible GPA to ultimately get accepted to, and be successful in medical school. Happy holidays guys 🙂

Hi thank you very much for sharing!
I was hoping you would enlighten me with the type of program you enrolled in at Drexel.
I am in a similar situation as you were once in, so I am looking for several programs to enroll in for this fall. Thank you in advance.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

Hey, already asked this before, but just wanted to ask here since this is a low GPA thread, and well, my GPA just sucks.

Major: Bio
Years of school: 4 (I am doing my undergrad in 5 years so I still have one year left)

GPA: 2.45.

Last semester was my worst semester ever. I had a 2.7 GPA on a downward trend BEFORE going in last semester, and now I am on academic probation after taking six classes, failing 3 of them and dropping one.

It shames me to exist and to say that it was because of my stupid decision of abusing weed that has pretty much ruined me.

However, this semester I am taking 4 classes. I still want to be a doctor more than anything, but I am unable to stop hating myself despite my best efforts.

Does anyone think that I can still be an MD?

If not, what do I have to do to have a chance at DO or an SMP if needed?

 

[deleted248403]

Hey, already asked this before, but just wanted to ask here since this is a low GPA thread, and well, my GPA just sucks.

Major: Bio
Years of school: 4 (I am doing my undergrad in 5 years so I still have one year left)

GPA: 2.45.

Last semester was my worst semester ever. I had a 2.7 GPA on a downward trend BEFORE going in last semester, and now I am on academic probation after taking six classes, failing 3 of them and dropping one.

It shames me to exist and to say that it was because of my stupid decision of abusing weed that has pretty much ruined me.

However, this semester I am taking 4 classes. I still want to be a doctor more than anything, but I am unable to stop hating myself despite my best efforts.

Does anyone think that I can still be an MD?

If not, what do I have to do to have a chance at DO or an SMP if needed?

Before anyone engages him, he has two other threads in pre-allo (linked here) which have been beaten this same question to death:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=872353
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=877490

OP - stop asking the same question. Your GPA went down last semester from a 2.7 to a 2.45. Stop failing ****, get some As. Get one semester of good grades and then we'll talk.

Otherwise this is circular (like your last two threads...) where you ask for people to tell you good news, and then proceed to tank your classes. You can find someone to tell you that Giesle will leave Tom Brady and come for you, but it doesn't mean its true.

YOU are the one who is in the classroom and needs to do well this semester. There is no other way to slice this pie.

 

[DeucesHigh3]

Hey, already asked this before, but just wanted to ask here since this is a low GPA thread, and well, my GPA just sucks.

Major: Bio
Years of school: 4 (I am doing my undergrad in 5 years so I still have one year left)

GPA: 2.45.

Last semester was my worst semester ever. I had a 2.7 GPA on a downward trend BEFORE going in last semester, and now I am on academic probation after taking six classes, failing 3 of them and dropping one.

It shames me to exist and to say that it was because of my stupid decision of abusing weed that has pretty much ruined me.

However, this semester I am taking 4 classes. I still want to be a doctor more than anything, but I am unable to stop hating myself despite my best efforts.

Does anyone think that I can still be an MD?

If not, what do I have to do to have a chance at DO or an SMP if needed?

Dude, you need to stop whining and put on your daddy-pants. You've gotten a ton of good advice from people who have been in your situation and have pushed through it. There is nothing stopping you now except your attitude and willingness to work.

At the beginning of 2007, I had a 2.62GPA across 134 credit hours. I wish I only had three failures -- I had *ten*. It sucked. I was sure I would never be a physician. But I didn't piss and moan about it online. I knocked out 3 science-heavy semesters at a 3.95, re-took an expired MCAT, rocked an SMP, and now I'm getting all Honors as an MS1 at a US allo school. What part of that can't you do? 😕

 

[davidb25]

Dude, you need to stop whining and put on your daddy-pants. You've gotten a ton of good advice from people who have been in your situation and have pushed through it. There is nothing stopping you now except your attitude and willingness to work.

At the beginning of 2007, I had a 2.62GPA across 134 credit hours. I wish I only had three failures -- I had *ten*. It sucked. I was sure I would never be a physician. But I didn't piss and moan about it online. I knocked out 3 science-heavy semesters at a 3.95, re-took an expired MCAT, rocked an SMP, and now I'm getting all Honors as an MS1 at a US allo school. What part of that can't you do? 😕

Absolutely amazing, I plan to do something similar. I'm probably going to graduate with ~ 2.7.

What did those 3 science heavy semesters bring your cGPA and sGPA to, if you dont mind me asking? 4 science heavy semesters at 3.7 + would only bring me up to roughly 2.95, still not competitive.

 

[DrMidlife]

4 science heavy semesters at 3.7 + would only bring me up to roughly 2.95, still not competitive.

Some SMPs (and some med schools) will look favorably on 4 science-heavy semesters at 3.7+, regardless of your cuGPA. Rock that MCAT.

Best of luck to you.

 

[DeucesHigh3]

Absolutely amazing, I plan to do something similar. I'm probably going to graduate with ~ 2.7.

What did those 3 science heavy semesters bring your cGPA and sGPA to, if you dont mind me asking? 4 science heavy semesters at 3.7 + would only bring me up to roughly 2.95, still not competitive.

I ended up with a 2.92BCPM, 3.04 AO, and 2.98 total on my AMCAS. Yes, I probably should have taken a CC summer class to bump the cumulative up to a 3.0, but it wasn't necessary as it turned out.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

Dude, you need to stop whining and put on your daddy-pants. You've gotten a ton of good advice from people who have been in your situation and have pushed through it. There is nothing stopping you now except your attitude and willingness to work.

At the beginning of 2007, I had a 2.62GPA across 134 credit hours. I wish I only had three failures -- I had *ten*. It sucked. I was sure I would never be a physician. But I didn't piss and moan about it online. I knocked out 3 science-heavy semesters at a 3.95, re-took an expired MCAT, rocked an SMP, and now I'm getting all Honors as an MS1 at a US allo school. What part of that can't you do? 😕

Thats really inspirational. Congrats. Are you a URM (Im asking out of pure curiosity, even if you are I still think that is amazing)?

 

[DeucesHigh3]

Thats really inspirational. Congrats. Are you a URM (Im asking out of pure curiosity, even if you are I still think that is amazing)?

Heh nope, middle-class white male.