The one IMPORTANT thing pre-meds are missing... Short and sweet.

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I have literally never seen a medical student lecture about SYSTEMS-BASED PRACTICE to get into medical school.

I haven't even heard of it until I started residency. I didn't think much of it until it clicked. It made the complicated healthcare system make a lot more sense. This is something I wish I knew about as a pre-med, so I wanted to share it.

When I was a kid and my grandparents were in the hospital, I thought that their doctors weren't good because I never saw them. I assumed the doctors were supposed to carry out the direct patient care roles that the nurses do. If you are unfamiliar with medicine and watch Chicago Med on TV, you would believe that the emergency medicine physician manages care in the ED and on the floors. If you are unfamiliar with systems-based practices as a resident or attending physician, then you will likely not provide the best patient care possible. You might end up shifting your work on others, or might take on a whole lot more than what you were supposed to do.

I did an audition rotation at an understaffed hospital that has a reputation for being a very malignant program. The residents there would act as patient transporters, do all labs, run the labs to the lab, etc... We do not do any of these duties at my residency program. Hence, systems-based practice. In medicine, you have a lot of specialties all getting pissed off at each other. You get turfing. Sadly, it's often the patient that has to suffer when someone decides to act passive-aggressively.

Also, knowledge of systems-based practice will help you realize who has what responsibilities so you don't label them lazy. 😉

I think you don't understand that people are concerned about EC's in order to become more competitive. This is not something unique to medicine but life.

Look at my post history. I spent quite a few years starting threads and am active in the pre-med forum answering questions about ECs.
 
Volunteering is necessary, even if not required. As I mentioned already, many med schools already what they want in the humanistic domains from their applicants, and these come from either volunteering, or employment.

As you yourself know, being a successful med student requires good time mgt skills. Pre meds need to.master this as well, and be able to volunteer AND be good students.

Otherwise, you're stuck with the 4.0 automatons.


True, I agree with this.



As I mentioned above, there are other ways to do this without necessarily picking up commitments that can significantly impact your grades and MCAT score.



That's sad and does happen. This happened in my class. It will happen no matter what since there are so many factors that drive someone into medicine. From passion to your parents.



Very true.



No I wouldn't. I don't buy clothes online but I know people that do. I like to know things before I buy them.



Yes. I'm looking for this too. I've met really smart people that can't communicate with others if their lives depended on it, no pun intended. I would love to find better ways to help find applicants, and I actually spoke to our PD today about trying to find research regarding this topic. I'd be interested to see how this process can be made better. Also, I am for certain activities or methods that would show an interest and commitment to medicine. I'm all for clinical volunteering, but am against jobs that would conflict with school and the MCAT.



I'm not and never was suggesting getting rid of all EC/experience requirements. On the contrary, I want things to be switched around, such as making volunteering an official requirement. Also, I am trying to give people another perspective regarding the pre-med process. I have seen people put all of their eggs in one basket and fail. It's something you don't read about very much here because the members on this site that fail will probably stop posting immediately.

I'm a first generation American. My parents fled the Soviet Union with $100 in their pockets and just a few suitcases because they wanted to escape the religious persecution of Jews in that country. They taught me a lot about being grateful and not taking things for granted. They also taught me that no one owes me anything. Such is the case with college. Plenty of people today have enough trouble finding well-paying jobs. Enough people are underemployed or even unemployed living in their parent's basement. No one is going to give them a cushy job just for having a diploma. People with soft science majors and poor grades would likely have a hard time finding a good job. I honestly want to help people so that they can make the best choices possible to avoid finding themselves underemployed or unemployed. Once someone is in medical school, then that's great. But for the people that try and can't make it, it really sucks.

But overall, I agree with what you were saying. I do not think that there is an all or nothing approach to the medical school admissions process, and instead, it should be somewhere in the middle.
 
Because I don't understand how my response was was supporting and echoing the sentiment quoted? If someone can explain to me a better way to handle admissions, then I'm all ears.
Do you have them blocked? Cuz I quoted them and said that their statement was supporting and echoing the quote. And thus was definitely an attack on you. Sorry man, things get weird when there are ignore lists.
 
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Scribing may help you at the start but the only way to truly get great at them is to pump out thousands of them doing it on your own. At the end of the day I doubt even 5 years of scribing would make any longer term difference.
It has made the first two years of med school far easier than it is for my peers; you can tell the students who scribed. So if you're going to spend time on an EC anyways, why not pick one that helps you out down the road?

I've never understood the whole "after 10yrs you won't notice a difference, so there's no advantage" advice. Sure, it's not the end of the world if you only volunteer instead of scribing, and nobody has to pre-study or take med-related classes...but saying that you can get through med school without something is not the same thing as saying that it doesn't make the journey easier. I've always been a fan of doing things that are equivalent amounts of work but make my life overall smoother, less stressful, and at times way easier.


Also, crunched some numbers and...our average number of patients per doc per shift was 20-30, depending on season, time of day, and acuity. If I were scribing for that doc, I would write all 20-30 of those HPIs on my own after listening to their interview...there was no dictation. We were expected to watch the interview and distill it into a cogent HPI with appropriate PMHx pulled from prior medical records, triage notes, and the patient interview, and appropriate pertinent positives and negatives based on chief complaints. So let's say that I saw only 20pts on average, per shift (it was higher than that), and worked 3 shifts per week, which was my usual schedule. That already gets me to 4500 HPIs written over that year and a half period. Certainly not enough to be 'truly great' at them, but I did pump out thousands of them, on my own. And, since my docs reviewed the charts by the end of that shift and made any edits that they thought were necessary, and then dictated the clinical reasoning section into Dragon next to me, I got to see what they thought I was missing or had done poorly on every single one of those charts, and then I got to hear them talk through their differential and their entire decision making process for patients that I was very familiar with. Now, the number of truly complex and interesting HPIs mixed in there is obviously far lower than that, but it's definitely enough to be helping out in med school.
 
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Do you have them blocked? Cuz I quoted them and said that their statement was supporting and echoing the quote. And thus was definitely an attack on you. Sorry man, things get weird when there are ignore lists.

I haven't ever blocked anyone on SDN. The original poster that echoed the quote said that they weren't attacking me, so I apologized. I got very confused with the echoed one and then the one you sent. In fact, I have been incredibly confused since I got called lazy. I explained how our hospital system works and how ED physicians put in admit orders and then the patients can be seen in or out of the emergency department, therefore not tying up emergency department resources and rooms by having the patients wait for either medicine or surgery to see them. I do not recall how the admit system worked in medical school during my core rotation. So I'm not sure what I said, but it really pissed some people off.
 
While I understand your concerns with scribing jobs, it's also important to recognize just how beneficial they can be if they are timed right. I'm currently in a gap year between graduating undergrad and applying to medical schools, and I elected to get a scribing job. Why? Because I needed shadowing hours, clinical hours, and a job. Scribing knocked out all three of those in one, versus having to fight to get in clinical volunteering hours, non-clinical volunteering hours, and shadowing hours around an 8-5 job. It's much more manageable to work an 8-5 job and do some non-clinical volunteering in addition.
 
While I understand your concerns with scribing jobs, it's also important to recognize just how beneficial they can be if they are timed right. I'm currently in a gap year between graduating undergrad and applying to medical schools, and I elected to get a scribing job. Why? Because I needed shadowing hours, clinical hours, and a job. Scribing knocked out all three of those in one, versus having to fight to get in clinical volunteering hours, non-clinical volunteering hours, and shadowing hours around an 8-5 job. It's much more manageable to work an 8-5 job and do some non-clinical volunteering in addition.

Good! Scribing during a gap year was a good idea then! I'm all for it as long as the grades and MCAT don't take a hit. I've noticed some SDN users scribing during gap years, but also a lot of users that try to do it during their busiest months.
 
It has made the first two years of med school far easier than it is for my peers; you can tell the students who scribed. So if you're going to spend time on an EC anyways, why not pick one that helps you out down the road?

I've never understood the whole "after 10yrs you won't notice a difference, so there's no advantage" advice. Sure, it's not the end of the world if you only volunteer instead of scribing, and nobody has to pre-study or take med-related classes...but saying that you can get through med school without something is not the same thing as saying that it doesn't make the journey easier. I've always been a fan of doing things that are equivalent amounts of work but make my life overall smoother, less stressful, and at times way easier.


Also, crunched some numbers and...our average number of patients per doc per shift was 20-30, depending on season, time of day, and acuity. If I were scribing for that doc, I would write all 20-30 of those HPIs on my own after listening to their interview...there was no dictation. We were expected to watch the interview and distill it into a cogent HPI with appropriate PMHx pulled from prior medical records, triage notes, and the patient interview, and appropriate pertinent positives and negatives based on chief complaints. So let's say that I saw only 20pts on average, per shift (it was higher than that), and worked 3 shifts per week, which was my usual schedule. That already gets me to 4500 HPIs written over that year and a half period. Certainly not enough to be 'truly great' at them, but I did pump out thousands of them, on my own. And, since my docs reviewed the charts by the end of that shift and made any edits that they thought were necessary, and then dictated the clinical reasoning section into Dragon next to me, I got to see what they thought I was missing or had done poorly on every single one of those charts, and then I got to hear them talk through their differential and their entire decision making process for patients that I was very familiar with. Now, the number of truly complex and interesting HPIs mixed in there is obviously far lower than that, but it's definitely enough to be helping out in med school.

Listening and typing is not the same as actually decision making. That's the core of why shadowing is useless. I could buy it being mildly helpful during the first two years of medical school (a time where most schools don't even grade you on your HPIs), but beyond that I'm going to go with a big no.

And trust me you aren't just not 'truly great' at HPIs, you are barely touching your toe in the water. I like to think of clinical judgement similar to speech development and an MS2 isn't even cooing yet. If you are truly talented and work hard you may just get to babbling by start of intern year.
 
Listening and typing is not the same as actually decision making. That's the core of why shadowing is useless. I could buy it being mildly helpful during the first two years of medical school (a time where most schools don't even grade you on your HPIs), but beyond that I'm going to go with a big no.

And trust me you aren't just not 'truly great' at HPIs, you are barely touching your toe in the water. I like to think of clinical judgement similar to speech development and an MS2 isn't even cooing yet. If you are truly talented and work hard you may just get to babbling by start of intern year.

Agreed. When I worked in the OR, I shadowed a vascular surgeon who encouraged me to scribe for him and practice note writing. When I started doing primary care in the Navy and had to do my own H&Ps, come up with my own differential, and make clinics judgements on my own, I realized just how different it is to do it on your own.
 
Listening and typing is not the same as actually decision making. That's the core of why shadowing is useless. I could buy it being mildly helpful during the first two years of medical school (a time where most schools don't even grade you on your HPIs), but beyond that I'm going to go with a big no.

And trust me you aren't just not 'truly great' at HPIs, you are barely touching your toe in the water. I like to think of clinical judgement similar to speech development and an MS2 isn't even cooing yet. If you are truly talented and work hard you may just get to babbling by start of intern year.
Never said I had done any decision making. We were discussing HPIs. And on those, I'm nowhere near 'truly great' and never claimed to be. I actually never claimed to be anything other than "not as ****ty as most M2s are." But the process was still very helpful. Our HPIs were never about transcription; the doc would have their patient interview as normal, and by the time the patient encounter wrapped up and you walked back to the desk, unless it was a complicated patient or multiple patients in a single visit, the history should be done. We would write the HPI, ROS, PE, and then when they came in put in labs and my rudimentary interpretation of them, and the radiology reports. It was also within my job description to let the doctor know when he needed to address a patient again, say, if an abnormal lab came back (meaning I had to learn what was abnormal vs what was 'important abnormal' for those pts), if he had enough to sign them out, when it had been too long and they hadn't made it to imaging and we needed to kickstart things, etc. I tracked down the docs for consults, I would comb prior medical records to get information that was needed for the history, I documented all procedures, their timestamps, which equipment and meds were used, etc. I owned every inch of that chart except for the 'Clinical Reasoning' section, which my copy didn't have. Usually I'd try to put in the anticipated Dx and what I figured the d/c instructions would be based on that (most docs had a set of instructions with some variations they used for most common Dx's). Once I signed my chart, the doctor would open a 'new' chart which would copy every bit of information from my document and give them the additional 'Clinical Reasoning' tab, where they would record their differential diagnosis and why they managed the patient the way they did and came to their final Dx. They dictated this all through Dragon, so I basically got to do a chart, know every value in that chart and what it had looked like in person, and then hear the doctor literally correct my work and then talk through their entire thought process on the patient before signing it.

If you can't see how doing that for thousands of different patients would be useful, and more useful than someone who isn't working, has no access to the charts, no reason to pay attention to which questions are specifically asked of which patients, which labs are run or given importance, and to sit there watching as nitpicky docs tweaked and edited the charts they wrote so they could see what they did poorly and what they forgot to include/included that was unnecessary...then I don't know what to tell you. It has been incredibly helpful for me, more so than anything we've done in these first two years. I get way less access to charts now, way less responsibility, way less education about clinical matters now that I'm in med school. The docs I was working with used to let me ask questions when there was downtime, and then they'd not only answer them, but print out articles for me to read on the subjects - what you should aim to do with the BP in an AAA patient while they waited for transfer, the new technique they'd found for reducing nursemaid's elbow, etc...and while I was there, I had access to all of the same sites I basically use to learn now that I'm in med school, and I used them, because it was fascinating.

It is helpful in PBLs, which is 95% of our curriculum. It is helpful anytime they have us doing patient interviews, or physical exams, because you know the language, the flow, and you've seen it done literally thousands of times with varying complaints. It is useful whenever you discuss labs or imaging, because transcribing those into the chart and adding a simple interpretation was also a part of the job. Does it replace any of that? No, but if I have to choose between a volunteering gig where you're treated like a small child and learn very little, vs a job like my scribe position where it has made these first two years of med school waayyy easier and will still be helping as I go into 3rd year, I unequivocally choose the latter, and I don't understand how that is controversial.
 
Never said I had done any decision making. We were discussing HPIs. And on those, I'm nowhere near 'truly great' and never claimed to be. I actually never claimed to be anything other than "not as ****ty as most M2s are." But the process was still very helpful. Our HPIs were never about transcription; the doc would have their patient interview as normal, and by the time the patient encounter wrapped up and you walked back to the desk, unless it was a complicated patient or multiple patients in a single visit, the history should be done. We would write the HPI, ROS, PE, and then when they came in put in labs and my rudimentary interpretation of them, and the radiology reports. It was also within my job description to let the doctor know when he needed to address a patient again, say, if an abnormal lab came back (meaning I had to learn what was abnormal vs what was 'important abnormal' for those pts), if he had enough to sign them out, when it had been too long and they hadn't made it to imaging and we needed to kickstart things, etc. I tracked down the docs for consults, I would comb prior medical records to get information that was needed for the history, I documented all procedures, their timestamps, which equipment and meds were used, etc. I owned every inch of that chart except for the 'Clinical Reasoning' section, which my copy didn't have. Usually I'd try to put in the anticipated Dx and what I figured the d/c instructions would be based on that (most docs had a set of instructions with some variations they used for most common Dx's). Once I signed my chart, the doctor would open a 'new' chart which would copy every bit of information from my document and give them the additional 'Clinical Reasoning' tab, where they would record their differential diagnosis and why they managed the patient the way they did and came to their final Dx. They dictated this all through Dragon, so I basically got to do a chart, know every value in that chart and what it had looked like in person, and then hear the doctor literally correct my work and then talk through their entire thought process on the patient before signing it.

If you can't see how doing that for thousands of different patients would be useful, and more useful than someone who isn't working, has no access to the charts, no reason to pay attention to which questions are specifically asked of which patients, which labs are run or given importance, and to sit there watching as nitpicky docs tweaked and edited the charts they wrote so they could see what they did poorly and what they forgot to include/included that was unnecessary...then I don't know what to tell you. It has been incredibly helpful for me, more so than anything we've done in these first two years. I get way less access to charts now, way less responsibility, way less education about clinical matters now that I'm in med school. The docs I was working with used to let me ask questions when there was downtime, and then they'd not only answer them, but print out articles for me to read on the subjects - what you should aim to do with the BP in an AAA patient while they waited for transfer, the new technique they'd found for reducing nursemaid's elbow, etc...and while I was there, I had access to all of the same sites I basically use to learn now that I'm in med school, and I used them, because it was fascinating.

It is helpful in PBLs, which is 95% of our curriculum. It is helpful anytime they have us doing patient interviews, or physical exams, because you know the language, the flow, and you've seen it done literally thousands of times with varying complaints. It is useful whenever you discuss labs or imaging, because transcribing those into the chart and adding a simple interpretation was also a part of the job. Does it replace any of that? No, but if I have to choose between a volunteering gig where you're treated like a small child and learn very little, vs a job like my scribe position where it has made these first two years of med school waayyy easier and will still be helping as I go into 3rd year, I unequivocally choose the latter, and I don't understand how that is controversial.

You see that's the thing, a good HPI involves decision making throughout the entire process. You can't have one without the other. You can fill out infinite templates or copy infinite HPIs from other people, but without that constant decision making guiding the interview it's simply not the same.

And you could tell going to clown college is helpful for a pbl curriculum and I would believe you. I have no experience in that nor do I want any.
 
You see that's the thing, a good HPI involves decision making throughout the entire process. You can't have one without the other. You can fill out infinite templates or copy infinite HPIs from other people, but without that constant decision making guiding the interview it's simply not the same.

And you could tell going to clown college is helpful for a pbl curriculum and I would believe you. I have no experience in that nor do I want any.
If you refuse to read, I can't help you. There were no templates and no copying.
I'm sorry that you are so adamant about how something you have no experience with affects another thing you have no experience with.
 
If you refuse to read, I can't help you. There were no templates and no copying.
I'm sorry that you are so adamant about how something you have no experience with affects another thing you have no experience with.

If you say scribing helps with MS1+2 pbl I won't argue with you. Anything past that is gonna be a no.

I also think you missed the point of what I said but that is alright.
 
If you say scribing helps with MS1+2 pbl I won't argue with you. Anything past that is gonna be a no.

I also think you missed the point of what I said but that is alright.
I didn't miss your point, you were just blatantly ignoring what I said in order to make it, so I chose to ignore you in return.
 
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Never said I had done any decision making. We were discussing HPIs. And on those, I'm nowhere near 'truly great' and never claimed to be. I actually never claimed to be anything other than "not as ****ty as most M2s are." But the process was still very helpful. Our HPIs were never about transcription; the doc would have their patient interview as normal, and by the time the patient encounter wrapped up and you walked back to the desk, unless it was a complicated patient or multiple patients in a single visit, the history should be done. We would write the HPI, ROS, PE, and then when they came in put in labs and my rudimentary interpretation of them, and the radiology reports. It was also within my job description to let the doctor know when he needed to address a patient again, say, if an abnormal lab came back (meaning I had to learn what was abnormal vs what was 'important abnormal' for those pts), if he had enough to sign them out, when it had been too long and they hadn't made it to imaging and we needed to kickstart things, etc. I tracked down the docs for consults, I would comb prior medical records to get information that was needed for the history, I documented all procedures, their timestamps, which equipment and meds were used, etc. I owned every inch of that chart except for the 'Clinical Reasoning' section, which my copy didn't have. Usually I'd try to put in the anticipated Dx and what I figured the d/c instructions would be based on that (most docs had a set of instructions with some variations they used for most common Dx's). Once I signed my chart, the doctor would open a 'new' chart which would copy every bit of information from my document and give them the additional 'Clinical Reasoning' tab, where they would record their differential diagnosis and why they managed the patient the way they did and came to their final Dx. They dictated this all through Dragon, so I basically got to do a chart, know every value in that chart and what it had looked like in person, and then hear the doctor literally correct my work and then talk through their entire thought process on the patient before signing it.

If you can't see how doing that for thousands of different patients would be useful, and more useful than someone who isn't working, has no access to the charts, no reason to pay attention to which questions are specifically asked of which patients, which labs are run or given importance, and to sit there watching as nitpicky docs tweaked and edited the charts they wrote so they could see what they did poorly and what they forgot to include/included that was unnecessary...then I don't know what to tell you. It has been incredibly helpful for me, more so than anything we've done in these first two years. I get way less access to charts now, way less responsibility, way less education about clinical matters now that I'm in med school. The docs I was working with used to let me ask questions when there was downtime, and then they'd not only answer them, but print out articles for me to read on the subjects - what you should aim to do with the BP in an AAA patient while they waited for transfer, the new technique they'd found for reducing nursemaid's elbow, etc...and while I was there, I had access to all of the same sites I basically use to learn now that I'm in med school, and I used them, because it was fascinating.

It is helpful in PBLs, which is 95% of our curriculum. It is helpful anytime they have us doing patient interviews, or physical exams, because you know the language, the flow, and you've seen it done literally thousands of times with varying complaints. It is useful whenever you discuss labs or imaging, because transcribing those into the chart and adding a simple interpretation was also a part of the job. Does it replace any of that? No, but if I have to choose between a volunteering gig where you're treated like a small child and learn very little, vs a job like my scribe position where it has made these first two years of med school waayyy easier and will still be helping as I go into 3rd year, I unequivocally choose the latter, and I don't understand how that is controversial.

I’m sure it helps. But I think the tone of your post implies that it helps more than it does. Having any sort of experience with something will give you a leg up because, as you said, you will already know the language and be familiar with the process. So when you’re then learning the basics, you will have an advantage. But that’s really as far as it goes. Once the others catch up, everyone is on a level playing field again.
 
I’m sure it helps. But I think the tone of your post implies that it helps more than it does. Having any sort of experience with something will give you a leg up because, as you said, you will already know the language and be familiar with the process. So when you’re then learning the basics, you will have an advantage. But that’s really as far as it goes. Once the others catch up, everyone is on a level playing field again.
OK and? I've been out of college for a while and everyone's back on the same page, but you won't see me telling high schoolers that something that makes 3/4 of their college years easier isn't worth it because by the time they graduate, all of the people who had to work harder along the way will have caught up.

Scribing was, for me, without a doubt more educational and productive than the first 2yrs of medical school. If that's not worth a strong endorsement of its value, then why the hell do we even have preclinical years in the first place?
 
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OK and? I've been out of college for a while and everyone's back on the same page, but you won't see me telling high schoolers that something that makes 3/4 of their college years easier isn't worth it because by the time they graduate, all of the people who had to work harder along the way will have caught up.

Scribing was, for me, without a doubt more educational and productive than the first 2yrs of medical school. If that's not worth a strong endorsement of its value, then why the hell do we even have preclinical years in the first place?

I didn’t say it’s isn’t worth it. I’m saying it isn’t necessary, and at some point the advantage it gives you goes away. That’s all. Being a scribe isn’t going to make you a better doctor. It’ll just make it easier to learn the basics of doing an HPI and expose you to some good clinical decision making. That’s all good.
 
I’m sure it helps. But I think the tone of your post implies that it helps more than it does. Having any sort of experience with something will give you a leg up because, as you said, you will already know the language and be familiar with the process. So when you’re then learning the basics, you will have an advantage. But that’s really as far as it goes. Once the others catch up, everyone is on a level playing field again.

Scribing, at least to me, is like putting the cart before the horse. It's good that it proved to be valuable for @mehc012, but I'd guess that this is more the exception than the norm. Our PBL sessions during the very first week of MS-1 taught us how to interpret CBCs and BMPs, and then CMPs during week two. Our clinical medicine course(s) had us create bits and pieces of what ultimately would build an H&P excluding the plan. All of the knowledge we gained gradually built up. My very first medicine rotation involved the use of Meditech, which was pretty good for learning H&Ps since it forced me to type and think through most of it instead of using templates. Later on I used Epic, which was template nirvana, but it took a lot of work out of it. Even as an MS-3 and MS-4, medical students still weren't formulating plans. While I feel incredibly comfortable now formulating plans on most patients that do not have consults, there are residents that are all over the place with that. Some have an easier time than others.

With that said. I think a lot of scribing will amount to transcribing and not so much thinking through the thought process, since you technically don't learn any of that stuff until you start medical school. If there are people who had experiences that actually taught them the medical school stuff before medical school, then more power to them. But I don't think this would be the norm by a long shot.
 
I didn’t say it’s isn’t worth it. I’m saying it isn’t necessary, and at some point the advantage it gives you goes away. That’s all. Being a scribe isn’t going to make you a better doctor. It’ll just make it easier to learn the basics of doing an HPI and expose you to some good clinical decision making. That’s all good.
No, but the premise in this thread was that it wasn't valuable/worth it, which is what I was arguing against in the first place. If you aren't saying that, we're on the same page...I never said that scribing would make you a better doctor. It helps out at the beginning of med school; I'm just saying that's not so insignificant as to be written off.
 
I know!!! I love making posts just for you! 😍 :biglove:

I agree with where you are coming from. You need to work hard as a pre-med but be SMART about it. Don't kill yourself doing so many extracurricular that it irreversibly damages your GPA. Pick a few things that you can be good at or are passionate about.

I do agree with others that non-clinical volunteering is a must and that some aspects def have changed since you have applied, which you may be unintentionally ignorant about so far.

I am a scribe now during my gap year, and I deg agree with your other posts that you DONT recommend it during the school year. Full-time especially i feel like it would kill me!
 
No, but the premise in this thread was that it wasn't valuable/worth it, which is what I was arguing against in the first place. If you aren't saying that, we're on the same page...I never said that scribing would make you a better doctor. It helps out at the beginning of med school; I'm just saying that's not so insignificant as to be written off.

Yes, I don’t necessarily agree that it can’t be valuable. I didnt view the tone as it not being worth it, but rather that the benefits it confers are limited and may not be worth it if you can’t balance grades/MCAT studying with it.
 
Yes, I don’t necessarily agree that it can’t be valuable. I didnt view the tone as it not being worth it, but rather that the benefits it confers are limited and may not be worth it if you can’t balance grades/MCAT studying with it.

Exactly. I didn't say that any of these things are worthless, because they aren't. But with the numerous things pre-meds already need to juggle, it would not be worth doing.
 
Scribing, at least to me, is like putting the cart before the horse. It's good that it proved to be valuable for @mehc012, but I'd guess that this is more the exception than the norm. Our PBL sessions during the very first week of MS-1 taught us how to interpret CBCs and BMPs, and then CMPs during week two. Our clinical medicine course(s) had us create bits and pieces of what ultimately would build an H&P excluding the plan. All of the knowledge we gained gradually built up. My very first medicine rotation involved the use of Meditech, which was pretty good for learning H&Ps since it forced me to type and think through most of it instead of using templates. Later on I used Epic, which was template nirvana, but it took a lot of work out of it. Even as an MS-3 and MS-4, medical students still weren't formulating plans. While I feel incredibly comfortable now formulating plans on most patients that do not have consults, there are residents that are all over the place with that. Some have an easier time than others.

With that said. I think a lot of scribing will amount to transcribing and not so much thinking through the thought process, since you technically don't learn any of that stuff until you start medical school. If there are people who had experiences that actually taught them the medical school stuff before medical school, then more power to them. But I don't think this would be the norm by a long shot.
I guess I just can't fathom someone sitting next to a doctor 12hrs per day, seeing which questions they ask and which tests they order, hearing their clinical reasoning as they dictate it, and seeing how thousands of patients are treated and which abnormal labs are important vs which are common, looking at thousands of CXRs and then reading their interpretations, and not learning from it. Like, would you have to actively turn your brain off? Do they not ask their docs any questions, or look up the basic diseases they see and the pathophys, or ask during downtime why X patient was treated with Y drug, or why it wasn't an issue that the last person had a slightly high white count, or whatever. How do you work in the hospital and not learn about medicine; isn't that the entire premise of 3rd year? There are places where interns do almost nothing but the charting, are they not learning anything?
 
My very first medicine rotation involved the use of Meditech, which was pretty good for learning H&Ps since it forced me to type and think through most of it instead of using templates.

Yeah, I liked the way we did them on the ship. We had a computer in the treatment room, but it was broken, so the only one we could use to put the note into AHLTA was in the admin side. So we had blank paper templates that were written SOAP note style with a section for vitals, PMH/PSH/etc, and then big blocked out sections to free form write in everything. We put it into AHLTA later when we had a break or before the next patient if we needed to put in an order/rx.

It let me focus more on the patient than clicking boxes and let me think through the problem more rather than worrying about getting things in the computer and which things to check.
 
I guess I just can't fathom someone sitting next to a doctor 12hrs per day, seeing which questions they ask and which tests they order, hearing their clinical reasoning as they dictate it, and seeing how thousands of patients are treated and which abnormal labs are important vs which are common, looking at thousands of CXRs and then reading their interpretations, and not learning from it. Like, would you have to actively turn your brain off? Do they not ask their docs any questions, or look up the basic diseases they see and the pathophys, or ask during downtime why X patient was treated with Y drug, or why it wasn't an issue that the last person had a slightly high white count, or whatever. How do you work in the hospital and not learn about medicine; isn't that the entire premise of 3rd year? There are places where interns do almost nothing but the charting, are they not learning anything?

You definitely learn from it. It’s just way different when it’s your patient and you’re doing it on your own.
 
Not sure how relevant my opinion is considering I'm still a pre-med, but I think that being an EMT has given me a substantial amount of confidence in treating my patients. My compassion has grown and it has made me an overall more empathetic human being. I've already gone through the pain of losing patients. I've already proven that I can perform in high pressure situations. Not to mention I have endless experiences to talk about in my interviews.

If there's a piece of trash on the ground, I pick it up. While I'm not going to "go grab a broom and dustpan," I'm certainly going to take the time to help my team when I can. Being an EMT has taught me how to be a team member and how to appreciate other medical professionals. I definitely recommend.

On an off note: I'll never forget the time I was in my OB-GYN clinical, and I calculated the APGAR faster than the student doctor standing next to me.
 
I guess I just can't fathom someone sitting next to a doctor 12hrs per day, seeing which questions they ask and which tests they order, hearing their clinical reasoning as they dictate it, and seeing how thousands of patients are treated and which abnormal labs are important vs which are common, looking at thousands of CXRs and then reading their interpretations, and not learning from it. Like, would you have to actively turn your brain off? Do they not ask their docs any questions, or look up the basic diseases they see and the pathophys, or ask during downtime why X patient was treated with Y drug, or why it wasn't an issue that the last person had a slightly high white count, or whatever. How do you work in the hospital and not learn about medicine; isn't that the entire premise of 3rd year? There are places where interns do almost nothing but the charting, are they not learning anything?

There's no point in arguing since these experiences can be as helpful or not helpful to people. It clearly helped you, and I'm happy that it did. The point is, you can go to medical school without having any of this background and be successful.
 
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There's no point in arguing since these experiences can be as helpful or not helpful to people. It clearly helped you, and I'm happy that it did. The point is, you can go to medical school without having any of this background and be successful.
I mean, you can go to medical school without any science background at all and be successful. People way overhype the difficulty of medical school. But they also overhype what you actually get to do and experience there. People are too used to the idea that med students are useless to actually bother seeing what they can do and learn clinically. I'm glad I got to do at least a short stint of something useful and educational before getting bogged down in this swamp of wasted time.
 
I am sorry, didn't mean to go into politics at all. I brought this up as an example of a career that can be also occupied without previous related experiences.

This was a topic of previous post.

Yeah, I get it. It's definitely true. But you know people will read that in a less logical tone.
 
Nowhere did I say that people should have ZERO clinical experience before going to medical school. The extreme ends of the spectrum have never been brought up, which is zero clinical experience to a foreign MD that immigrated to the United States and needs to pass at USMLE exams and do a residency all over again to become licensed (I know a few that used to practice in Russia and the former Soviet Union). It's all about finding that fine balance. As @LizzyM has said for YEARS on SDN: If you can smell the patient, it's clinical experience. It's not if you can do glucose sticks, clean the patient's poop, feed the patient, or draw blood, then it's clinical experience. Medical school starts you at the very beginning, so no one needs anything beyond volunteering. If you held an entry-level clinical job, then good for you! We are all really proud of you! No one is saying what you did is a waste of time, or negating the value of your experience! All I'm saying is you do not need clinical experience beyond volunteering, that's it. This is not PA school that requires 1000+ paid clinical hours, as it is a fast-track approach. This is medical school, which starts you at the beginning. Whatever you decide to do beyond volunteering and shadowing is either icing on the cake, or the undoing of your future.
 
And to reiterate the point of the post, it's to signify that the healthcare system is incredibly complex, far more than other simpler organizations. It is important for different people to work together to provide the best possible and efficient care for patients. Everyone has their own duties and responsibilities, which often have blurry lines versus less complex types of organizations. This is a good thing for people to know at the very beginning as pre-meds, and not only realize it while they start residency.

It's so important that it is an ACGME core-competency and not something I randomly pulled out of my ass: https://knowledgeplus.nejm.org/blog/acgme-core-competencies-systems-based-practice/
 
which is zero clinical experience to a foreign MD that immigrated to the United States and needs to pass at USMLE exams and do a residency all over again to become licensed
those who immigrate here with M.D. degrees already had practiced medicine in their countries before coming here. So, they got plenty of clinical experience.
 
those who immigrate here with M.D. degrees already had practiced medicine in their countries before coming here. So, they got plenty of clinical experience.
He was expressing a range, where 'zero experience' was the lowest possible, and 'foreign MD retaking school to get credentialed here' was the highest possible amount of experience prior to USMD school.
 
Sure learn a lot new on SDN as I was not aware of scribing, at least it does not exist where I work.
Currently using Epic and with smart phrases doing a H&P is rather fast so spend more time playing “Sherlock Holmes” (the William Osler approach to patients) to quickly gather a diagnosis and plan by simply asking the right questions and verifying it with the focused exam and, if needed, labs.
Of course, years of experience helps as every time you see and care for a patient, it’s on hands research that you are gathering
 
Thanks. I don't disagree with anything you're saying. A friend of mine got lost down the "I'm going to be the best scribe in the city" well, she didn't study enough for orgo or the MCAT because of it and she's still paying for it. Which is sad, because I honestly think she would make a good physician.

However, I can't follow your advice to not consider myself an ass if I don't have X hours of volunteering. I'm one of the thousands of nobody premed spermatids trying to impregnate the medical school egg, so I am compelled to conform.

Ewww! :laugh:
 
I don’t follow OPs logic. Most scribe-written HPIs are too heavily templated and not very good, but I can’t think of a better premed activity than scribing. Puts you closer to the doctor process than MA or EMT.

And it’s not news that division of labor exists in every industry...?
 
I don’t follow OPs logic. Most scribe-written HPIs are too heavily templated and not very good, but I can’t think of a better premed activity than scribing. Puts you closer to the doctor process than MA or EMT.

And it’s not news that division of labor exists in every industry...?

I haven’t seen or used any scribe written H&Ps so far in practice, so I can’t really comment on how they look. I’ve seen all sorts of H&Ps from medical students, APRNs, PAs, residents, fellows, and attendings. There are some that suck and some that are good which comes from all different levels of people.

If pre-meds find that scribing is good for them, then that’s great. But if pre-meds find that it’s too time consuming and impacts their grades and MCAT, then that’s bad. It doesn’t matter if you become a chief scribe if you can’t get into medical school. Therefore, the best activity should be the one that gets you a medical school acceptance in hand, since that’s the ultimate goal. Anything that will give you “experience” but fail to get you admitted won’t suffice.

Division of labor exists in every industry, but it becomes very fuzzy in healthcare. That’s probably why it’s one of ACGME’s six core competencies. That’s why giving some random industry example, like an investment banker cleaning the office toilets or baggage handler flying a commercial airliner may seem silly, but in healthcare you can see all types of things that are less obvious. I rotated at a hospital with a known malignant residency program, and the resident’s didn’t everything from collecting labs to transporting patients.
 
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What a stupid rant. Premeds do this garbage to stand out on applications, and it works because mongoloids sitting on boards lap it up. If you suddenly sent out a memo telling them you didn't care, no pre med is going to turn around and waste a year scribing because they genuinely "think it will be a better doctor". You want to push this rant as a physician? Type up an email to your local medical school admissions office (or just PM one of the spergs on here), but don't waste your breath on premeds who deep down hate tutoring underprivleged minorities just as much as everyone else.

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What a stupid rant. Premeds do this garbage to stand out on applications, and it works because mongoloids sitting on boards lap it up. If you suddenly sent out a memo telling them you didn't care, no pre med is going to turn around and waste a year scribing because they genuinely "think it will be a better doctor". You want to push this rant as a physician? Type up an email to your local medical school admissions office (or just PM one of the spergs on here), but don't waste your breath on premeds who deep down hate tutoring underprivleged minorities just as much as everyone else.

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Sorry you didn’t find ECs you enjoyed. I have enjoyed all my volunteer activities and did them before I even decided to go this route. And that includes tutoring, which was one of my most meaningful.
 
What a stupid rant. Premeds do this garbage to stand out on applications, and it works because mongoloids sitting on boards lap it up. If you suddenly sent out a memo telling them you didn't care, no pre med is going to turn around and waste a year scribing because they genuinely "think it will be a better doctor". You want to push this rant as a physician? Type up an email to your local medical school admissions office (or just PM one of the spergs on here), but don't waste your breath on premeds who deep down hate tutoring underprivleged minorities just as much as everyone else.

<--- clicked on the wrong board

I would love to volunteer as an ADCOM at a medical school. Sadly, I am unable to do this now during residency. I will try after when I hopefully move back to Chicago. I think that if enough pre-meds begin to make a shift in their activities, then they can force change. But if you look at companies like Scribe America, they make a killing on cheap and willing labor.
 
I would love to volunteer as an ADCOM at a medical school. Sadly, I am unable to do this now during residency. I will try after when I hopefully move back to Chicago. I think that if enough pre-meds begin to make a shift in their activities, then they can force change. But if you look at companies like Scribe America, they make a killing on cheap and willing labor.

well if you do, you'll have to come argue with me about what we think of applicants.

I get what you wrote here even if you didn't do it in the clearest fashion, and your point something I certainly understand as an attending but probably wouldn't have understood as a premed. The job of a CNA or scribe may be clinical, but it bears little resemblance to that of the physician, and it tells me little about your preparedness to enter training to be an MD. Your job as a physician is to be "the decider" to copy a surprisingly insightful turn of phrase by our 43rd president.

In truth though, there aren't many jobs or opportunities for college students that give you the role of shot caller. Every patient I see involves me doing a running risk assessment in my head and I have to assess what are the risks and benefits to any decision that I make? If I'm selecting an applicant, I want to know two things: How well do they make decisions and how well do they assess risk. I think the standardized interview questions are a good idea but applicants can find ways to be coached at these so they're not perfect either.