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had a buddy speak to PD at one of the FM programs...said my app was among 800+ vying for one open spot....real numbers that dim the light that much more
THE SOAP 2013 Thread
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I totally agree with you. This is ridiculous.
one of the PDs that called me said they have 1000 applications. For 2 spots. THat made me feel small, but yet privileged to be talking to anyone there. :s
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What the hell? I thought FM was guaranteed, that there were more positions than applicants. Who are these people applying? Seriously 800?
totally agree. only in the US.
only in the US where everyone hands are in the physicians pockets, except the physicians own hands. no other career/jobs i know where government, insurance, etc dictates how much a physician gets paid and then tell the physician how to practice medicine.
never in my dream will i tell my lawyer how to practice law and how much he deserves to get paid or my electrician how to wire my house and how much he should get paid.
should start a twitter hashtag on #changethesystem
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You have to keep in mind that MANY applicants that have not matched into Neuro, IM, Peds, etc, etc... are also applying to FM as back up. So out of the 800-1000 maybe 300 are actually genuinely interested in FM.
Such a good point. I don't think the public realizes that a number of graduating MDs/DOs are not getting the additional training necessary to practice medicine, either... Its not just a waste of money/resources for the individual...
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I'm definitely starting to lose hope at this point. I got an email last night from a program, and I emailed them back right away, but have heard nothing from them since then. So, I have no interviews and no calls.
I originally applied for Psych, and this is my second time going through SOAP. I thought for sure I'd match this time. A couple of residents from one program emailed me after my interview, and said that they were impressed with my profile and would love to have me there. They even invited me for a 2nd look, and still I'm here balling my eyes out alone. Last year, there were 7 of us in our class that didn't match, but 3 got something during SOAP. It was real strange because usually at our school only 1 or 2 don't match per year, but this time 7. One person got a surgery prelim at the very last minute in June, and then there were 3 of us without anything. I know that one of the three of us matched, but I don't know aobut the other person. But I'm still not matched. My board scores are what hold me back, but I don't get many interviews to even explain that issues I was going through that affected my performance. Now, seems like I'm staring at another year without a residency. The only thing that I can do at this point is take Step 3 and absolutely knock it out the park. Hard to imagine me doing when I struggled with Steps 1 and 2, particularly step 1.
I originally applied for Psych, and this is my second time going through SOAP. I thought for sure I'd match this time. A couple of residents from one program emailed me after my interview, and said that they were impressed with my profile and would love to have me there. They even invited me for a 2nd look, and still I'm here balling my eyes out alone. Last year, there were 7 of us in our class that didn't match, but 3 got something during SOAP. It was real strange because usually at our school only 1 or 2 don't match per year, but this time 7. One person got a surgery prelim at the very last minute in June, and then there were 3 of us without anything. I know that one of the three of us matched, but I don't know aobut the other person. But I'm still not matched. My board scores are what hold me back, but I don't get many interviews to even explain that issues I was going through that affected my performance. Now, seems like I'm staring at another year without a residency. The only thing that I can do at this point is take Step 3 and absolutely knock it out the park. Hard to imagine me doing when I struggled with Steps 1 and 2, particularly step 1.
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I raised this exact issue with my friends (unfortuantely, one of whom is having to go through the SOAP right now.)
To put it simply the problem comes down to money. In a sentence, medical schools make money and residencies don't. You pay to go to medical school but you don't pay to go through residency. According to this AMA article, it costs more than $100,000 to train one resident each year. And the federal government only pays a part of that and the rest of the money has to come from state, local, the hospital itself, and other misc payers. And with the current disaster that is the government budget, it seems that funding is not going to increase anytime soon. http://www.amednews.com/article/20130204/opinion/130209978/4/
And of course with new medical schools and more applicants each year, the very unfortunate news is that things will get worse before they get better. Average USMLE scores are going up every year, and applicants will have to do more to stay competitive in terms of publications, electives, extra curriculars, and of course don't forget that winning smile! It really is disheartening to see people sacrifice so much of their life and end up with nothing. Before you know it, there won't be any "non-competitive" specialty anymore. edit: heck the days of the non-competitive specialty are already over it seems. There are people with no red-flags and not matching into FM/psych....
I fear that the "medical school bubble" may burst in the near-future just like the law school bubble is bursting as we speak. People will soon start to realize that a medical school admission does not mean becoming a doctor. And the media will have a field day when that happens.
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no prelim surg over here..
Since we're talking about the system, can I ask why are second (or even third) attempts on Steps held in such contempt? Is there a REAL reason behind it or is it just another filter that PD's use to comb through the 1000s of applicants
I'm asking because I had to repeat CK, my first attempt went bad because of a death in the immediate family. And im sure some others here are in the same boat
I'm asking because I had to repeat CK, my first attempt went bad because of a death in the immediate family. And im sure some others here are in the same boat
Went all day, 0/30 contacts. I am applying into IM. US grad (maybe, if I don't choose to postpone graduation). My step scores aren't good but that didn't stop me from getting a comfortable number of interviews, such that the odds of match were in my favor. Boy was I wrong.
Now it seems programs won't even glance in my direction. I was so close, it is so discouraging that it seems my med school career, after coming so far, is going end in a crash and burn.
Now it seems programs won't even glance in my direction. I was so close, it is so discouraging that it seems my med school career, after coming so far, is going end in a crash and burn.
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I got an email from one program last night, but never heard back from them. There weren't that many Psych spots available. I think there were about 14, and a few of them weren't participating in SOAP. So I ended up applying to other specialties such as IM and FM, which speaks to a comment above about why there are so many people vying for 1 or 2 spots in FM.
out of curiosity what do these programs say in emails?
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One of the program directors that I have spoken to on the interview trail put it bluntly, that passing/failing the Step exams is supposed to be a good indicator of whether or not someone will pass/fail boards for whatever specialty you are pursuing. So, that's why it hurts an applicant in the rankings, and why some programs won't even consider you if you had to repeat an exam. They want their Board Exam pass rate to remain high, so many are less likely to take a risk on someone who may have failed.
It is frustrating, because for many, they are going through personal issues. I passed all my shelf exams with no problems, and had classmates that failed multiple shelf exams, yet got matched easily. The main difference that I see between the shelf and Step exams is the length of time, but I guess they don't take shelf exams into much consideration.
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They pretty much said, that they appreciate my interest, and if I'm still interested in their program, they wanted me to email them as soon as possible to set up a phone interview or interview via Skype. I replied with my info, and never heard anything from them since then.
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A friend of mine is a PD in a specialty that has <100 spots nationwide (not very desirable though) and had one of their 5 spots go unmatched. She got almost 400 applications for that spot. In a specialty nearly nobody has heard of (no, I won't tell you what it is).
So if I had to guess, I'd say that the unmatched IM, FM, Peds and Psych programs probably got way more than 500 apps/spot.
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The plain and simple truth is that we are getting screwed big time and everybody knows it but no one is doing anything about it! How is it costing the hospital anything since residents are a source of cheap labor! Residents get paid 1/4 of a regular physician salary but work twice as much and on top of that the hospital is also being subsidized by the govt for the position! It seems to me that if the hospitals and govt wanted to they could create twice as many primary care positions as there are currently. If they don't want the student loan bubble to burst they better double up on there residency positions and STAT!
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It's taken me awhile to read through the thread. I believe questions posted earlier have all been answered.
Someone asked how the offer system works -- you get to see all of your offers at once. No more will appear in any given round. You can choose to accept any one offer (which declines the rest), or decline all of them and hope for something better the next round (not a strategy I would suggest).
If you have gotten an email from a program saying they are interested, you've responded, and then you get nothing back, I'd seriously consider calling them tomorrow AM. This is totally in line with the rules -- once a program initiates contact, you can contact them back. Be polite, simply mention that you received their email, are interested, and want to know if they need any further information.
Someone asked how the offer system works -- you get to see all of your offers at once. No more will appear in any given round. You can choose to accept any one offer (which declines the rest), or decline all of them and hope for something better the next round (not a strategy I would suggest).
If you have gotten an email from a program saying they are interested, you've responded, and then you get nothing back, I'd seriously consider calling them tomorrow AM. This is totally in line with the rules -- once a program initiates contact, you can contact them back. Be polite, simply mention that you received their email, are interested, and want to know if they need any further information.
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This is interesting because during my interviews I've been told by various faculty that to them standarized scores means nothing...except that you're good at taking standarized exams. Which everyone has to take to get past the specialty boards but has little correlation with how "good" of a doctor you are.
So it really depends on the place I think.
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To whoever mentioned knocking step 3 out of the park, I got a >230 on step 3. I'm already looking for jobs that I can use with my undergrad degree and other degrees I could pursue that could possibly enable me to pay off existing my student loans. After all, I'm in front of this computer checking my email all day long. May as well do something useful.
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There's a difference between "scores don't matter" and "passing doesn't matter." This is completely reasonable (IMHO) as in the first case...you've met a (non-statistically relevant) minimum standard of your profession while in the latter case you haven't.
TL;DR - Scores may not matter, but passing does.
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Knocking Step 3 out of the park means a 250+ (maybe 260). Step 3 is the easiest of the exams by far. My Step 1 was stone-cold average, 2CK was much better but not stellar, 3 (with basically no studying) was 30+ points above 1.
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Wow I feel bad for anyone who has go through this.
Reading through the thread, it seems like the SOAP process is a brutal one.
There are quite a few specialty spots open in path, anesthesia, and radiology, more than psych, I believe.
Reading through the thread, it seems like the SOAP process is a brutal one.
There are quite a few specialty spots open in path, anesthesia, and radiology, more than psych, I believe.
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I completely agree. It is so frustrating to be a US grad (almost), a quarter of a million in debt and possibly not have a job. All the more frustrating is many programs justify accepting FMG over AMG because of the upcoming doctor shortage and meanwhile US grads are getting shafted. Having worked with quite a few FMG as a student, boards scores of 250+ does not automatically equate superior patient care. I'm sure I will get a lot of hate but I really wish NRMP+SOAP was only open to AMG and CMG initially.
Got one more IM cat interview at around 7pm ET. >15 mins. the usual what happened? can you/will you be willing to relocate? explain intentions for next year (I think because I originally applied for something more competitive and it would be pretty obvious I need with my application). No guarantee. I was told they were calling as many applicants as possible and they were just as nervous about being unfilled (doubt it).
this year seems to have been strange. Many of our colleagues are on radio silence and not answering phones/emails -> suspected SOAPers, which is super sad since all of them have amazing scores, first time pass rates and got plenty interviews, so I am in awe of what happened? I can just hope for the best for my wife and I.
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Hmmm... Nuc med?
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Yep, pretty much. I even tell some of the underclassmen that they probably shouldn't even worry about how well they do on the Step unless they are going into something really competitive. The main thing is to pass on the first attempt.
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craptastic. that was going to be my strategy next time, to take step 3. I am still saving to pay for this test. I can barely afford rent, yet the $1000 + I spent this application season is for nothing. So far, this degree isn't paying out in any way whatsoever. Might as well work at McDonalds, would be nice to have Dr. on my name tag at the drive through. 🙂 haha. ok, gonna stop complaining before I become eternally bitter.
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Pretty sure I'm in this position because of my scores. My advisors and one of my two interviews for this process asked me why I think I didn't match and then all agreed with me it was my step scores given the rest of my app was strong and focused. I passed on my first attempt for all my steps but they were in 200s.Just hated studying for them so I only studied basics until I consistently passed mock exams, I even took step 2 ck and cs on back to back days just because I wanted to get it over with. That's not to say all PDs care about step scores that much but enough of them apparently do to where I didn't match. And for SOAP, programs are probably screening by the Step scores with the limited time they have compared to the number of apps, even before "red-flags" or being an IMG which require them to actually read your application.
Worst thing is I don't think PDs going to give a **** if I ace step 3 cause most people taking it are just going to study basics to pass, at least not enough to offset spending a year doing 'research' which is going to do wonders to my motivation for studying for that exam.
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This seems about right. Unfortunately it is in the best interest of medical schools to collect tuition. I'm aware of a few older students at my school who for whatever their reasons failed both 1&2 or step 1 twice and yet still the school counseled them to continue on with the medical school curriculum to graduation (having eventually passed the steps) only to have to scramble for a spot or take a year off to repeat and repeat match without the school's help. The 3 that I know of (because I met them doing research with them) all say they wish the school would have just told them up front how hard it would be to match given the failures and cut them loose before collecting two more years of tuition or at the least would have guided them properly, instead one guy attempted to match into anesthesiology with two failures and nobody from our school advised against that. Hindsight is 20/20. He should have known better but our counselors are all very "positive" and "hopeful" The truth early on would have hurt bad but it's better than false hope.
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You're frustrated and it's understandable
I just wanted to say at the end of this VERY drawn out day, that my wife and I are thankful for sdn and this thread and the camaraderie received from most people. It has helped us get through the day.
I am happy aProgDirector is here now and can maybe ease some of our fears, he brings some of balance to all this craziness.
Best of luck to everyone, I know the night will have many owls tonight, I know we won;t be able to sleep very well.
I am happy aProgDirector is here now and can maybe ease some of our fears, he brings some of balance to all this craziness.
Best of luck to everyone, I know the night will have many owls tonight, I know we won;t be able to sleep very well.
I know you are frustrated but as an American IMG I can say I have worked as hard if not harder to get where I am, and I can only hope that my first time pass rate and high scores are good enough to be able to get back home and work.
I wish you the best of luck, and hope we ALL match and have a job come tomorrow.
Why do residencies accept non-US IMGs? It makes more sense to first accept AMGs then have the left over spots for US IMGs. Taxpayers help pay for these spots right?
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I agree. People that don't think scores matter are deceiving themselves.
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I feel your pain. I assume that you are applying for a competitive field. I can't imagine that with scores in the 200's with passing on the first attempt, that you'd have problems getting into some of the less competitive fields. That's where my scores are, but I had to take both steps twice.
I've been doing research for this past year, so I only dabbled in trying to study for Step 3. if I don't find something, I'm still going to need to do some research because I can't be completely broke especially having to pay for applying again. Besides, programs want to see that you're doing something with yourself anyway. So, it won't be too easy to study for it, unless I just take a month off and dedicate myself to only studying. It also doesn't help that I'm a year removed from patient care, so a lot of stuff is not as fresh in my head 🙁
On a couple of interviews they actually asked me if I plan on taking Step 3, so I think that they may be looking to see the results of that before they decide if they want to move me up on their list. So, pretty much I think it's my only hope at this point
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AHH I'm sorry! I'm just incredibly frustrated for having decent scores with first passes but wrongly putting all hope into the wrong specialty for match. At the moment I am just in a very foul mood, feeling incredibly hopeless and scared. Please disregard my earlier post or rather amend it with American IMG too. I think I will be done for the night.
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I'm not a forum person but the camaraderie in this thread made my day easier to pass by. Happy Movie Marathon-ing and chugging that cup of coffee with your wife.
Don't worry about my feelings, I understand how scared and frustrated you are.... we'll pull through, you'll see, I can only dream and hope that there are not THAT many high score, first time pass everything, no year behind applicants whatever, whatever out there and that the first round tomorrow will make all of them happy!!!!
Everyone deserves this hard work to pay off
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I don't think there's a less competitive field anymore. I am applying for Anesthesiology which because of Anesthesiologist Nurses has become less competitive (I think last year average step scores were same as IMs)
I am a US IMG and I have a two year gap in my medical education. I failed step one on my 1st attempt with a 183 but I took it again and scored a 220. This thread has made me terrified to proceed with my medical education. I have been accepted to some pharmacy schools for the upcoming year and I am considering whether I would be better off cutting my losses.
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Welp. 2048 and 0/30 still. EFFFFFFF.
I keep running over everything I could have done wrong in my head. Failed a couple classes in first year, but passed everything else and killed third year and fourth year so far. Did pretty well on USMLE Step 1 and 2 which I took even though I'm graduating from a DO school. Didn't do well on the COMLEX though.
Oh well. Nothing I can do now, which I know. I'm just trying to hold on to the (rapidly fading) glimmer of hope that I'll get an offer without getting contact. I know it's not going to happen.
👎
Good night everyone! Good luck tomorrow!
I keep running over everything I could have done wrong in my head. Failed a couple classes in first year, but passed everything else and killed third year and fourth year so far. Did pretty well on USMLE Step 1 and 2 which I took even though I'm graduating from a DO school. Didn't do well on the COMLEX though.
Oh well. Nothing I can do now, which I know. I'm just trying to hold on to the (rapidly fading) glimmer of hope that I'll get an offer without getting contact. I know it's not going to happen.
👎Good night everyone! Good luck tomorrow!
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I share the same sentiments that this thread has been nothing short of a godsend, albeit, I have just been trolling like a thuggish lurker. Thanks to all. 🙂
Here's a question that I don't think anyone has addressed? Is the list of unfilled programs going to be continually updated? In other words, how are we going to avoid wasting our 2nd and 3rd round applications? If a program that had only one position available fills it soon after the first round of offers, I surely don't want to blow an application on it. Any ideas?
Here's a question that I don't think anyone has addressed? Is the list of unfilled programs going to be continually updated? In other words, how are we going to avoid wasting our 2nd and 3rd round applications? If a program that had only one position available fills it soon after the first round of offers, I surely don't want to blow an application on it. Any ideas?
