There isn't anything Lizzy, is there?

[Ppierce baller]

After reading through LizzyM's 2012 QandA session, I've realized why my cycle has been so unsuccessful. The path just isn't that paved for those who only score 30-32 on the MCAT and apply to top 50 programs. In real life and on here I honestly know of only one person (a reapplicant and long time SDN member who changed his handle name on here) who is having a successful season with such an MCAT score. Knowing that I was not the best test taker in the world and that I didn't come from HYPS, I thought there was a way around it, but I am here today telling anyone who will listen that there isn't.

The list of things that will make up for a sub-par MCAT score in the 30-32 range are incredibly short. From my experience they include:

1) URM status
2) Graduating from HYPS. You must have GOOD (to GREAT) letters from faculty from these institutions. The HYPS logos on your letters are key. You also need a GREAT GPA from here: 3.8+.
3) Winning a Rhodes or Marshall. No other awards carry any weight with adcoms. Of course you need to realize that 60%+ of those who win also qualify for #2. That's the kicker here.
4) One to multiple FIRST author publications. They must be first and there is no substitution here. I'm talking peer-reviewed journals only (preferably 4+ index).
5) Years abroad in third world countries making a profound difference that is affirmed by legislation, publications, or letters (from respected individuals). Week trips don't work.
6) Policy legislation. It needs to be profound. You need to take years off after graduation and push through multiple pieces of health care reform.
7) Parents on the faculty. Works every time.

That's pretty much it. As you can see, it's nearly impossible for most average Joe's (like myself) with high ~4.0 GPAs and 30-32 on the MCAT to succeed in the higher tier.

So what won't help. Well, given my credentials above and the fact that I have nearly every one of these things below checked off, I can tell you with certainty that these don't help negate the fact that your MCAT is deemed inferior.

1) High GPA from a school other than HYPS. Doesn't matter, UNLESS it is your ugrad and you are applying to their medical school. It may make a difference then.
2) Letter of recommendation from people other than HYPS. LizzyM said it herself, she doesn't really care about them compared to your numbers.
3) Tons of research. Anything other than a first author publication won't cover any ground with adcoms. The kids who never did research and got 35+ still beat you out.
4) ECs that don't lead to a Rhodes or Marshall (of that caliber). They have to be mind blowing and they have to make up for pedigree. This is nearly impossible. I thought mine were of this caliber, but now I have no idea what is.
5) Awards that aren't Rhodes or Marshall. LizzyM said it herself: she doesn't care about the Goldwater. You can put every other scholarship in list including the Fulbright.
6) Applying later than August. This will absolutely KILL your application. LizzyM said it best, you have to be an all-star from HYPS to get an interview this late.

Again, I'm not talking about kids who numbers absolutely blow, I talking about the middle ground applicants like myself with perfect GPAs, great ECs, and subpar MCATs (30-32).

So what is the best thing you can do to make sure you get a top 50 acceptance. Well be your average Joe BUT get the numbers. Besides being a good student you need the MCAT. Without the MCAT the road is much, much, much harder. Look at LizzyM's post about the cookie-cutter applicant. They have basically done nothing, but their MCAT is superior to the 30-32 slobs like me so they get the kick.

Applying to medical school is wonderful and awe-inspiring. I love it. Have fun. It's wonderful how we judge the future physicians in this country!

---

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[mzarrowsmith]

u mad brah?

 

[NickNaylor]

Your experiences can't be extrapolated to even a general experience. Maybe you have other glaring weaknesses in your app that you aren't aware of that are really the cause of your woes. Who knows. But some of what you say is just flat out incorrect and it's apparent that you don't know all that much about the process beyond your own very limited experience.

(sent from my phone)

 

[hizziaips]

IMO, you have a very narrow definition of "success". The average MCAT for a matriculant last year was 31.2, according to AMCAS. If you score 30-32 on the MCAT, you've still got an excellent chance at being admitted somewhere, provided that the rest of your app is decent. You don't need to do any of the extraordinary things that you mentioned above. Now, it's true that you may not be admitted to the school of your choice, but you can get in to medical school, and you can be a doctor. If becoming a doctor is your primary goal, then getting in anywhere is a successful cycle. (Please consider that ~57% of applicants don't get anywhere and would probably love to attend a non-top-50 school.)

Also, I agree with what NickNaylor said above.

 

[La Presse]

Number 6 on your first list? Wut.


Sent from my iPad using SDN Mobile app.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Number 6 on your first list? Wut.


Sent from my iPad using SDN Mobile app.

What, you never passed a bill or two in Congress? Amateur.

 

[deleted127837]

This may apply to Top 10~20, but not really Top 50. I've met people at multiple interviews outside the top 20 (or top 20 caliber schools that for whatever reason don't make the grade, like Mayo or Brown) that have 3.6s and 31s. I've met several people at top 5 universities that are not "Rhodes Scholar" EC-caliber people who have relatively low stats for what you would expect.

The difference I would hazard a guess at is that they showed dedication to what they've done instead of treating the whole process like a checklist. There is something substantial to be gained from entering college trusting that medical school will work out and then naturally exploring the things that interest you the most.

 

[CliveStaples]

When life gets tough, you can either get bitter or get better. The fact is, any perceived lack of success you might have are a product of yourself. You have a 30-32 MCAT and a high GPA and people with your stats are getting into schools and you aren't so they must have an edge. Something that is out of your control so it justifies your perceived pack of success. Why don't you be honest with yourself and determine what it is that your application lacks, not what other people must have as an advantage. With your numbers, you obviously must have a deficiency in something completely controllable. Maybe your interest in medicine isn't clear or maybe you haven't demonstrated leadership potential. That's up to you to figure out - but blaming the system doesn't help your predicament.

Control what you can control. What does it mean that I scored a 29 and have a 3.5 GPA and I didn't go to HYPS and I'm not URM (by SDN standards) and I don't have tons of research or a first author publication and I don't have a Rhodes or Fullbright? I got 6 MD interviews and multiple acceptances. I beat out people with a higher GPA and MCAT score because the admissions committee thought I was a better applicant. Don't rue the day you scored in the low 30s on your MCAT - that's only holding you back at a small number of schools. Rue the day you decided to blame this process for your own insecurities.

Get back on the horse. Get rid of the bitter and get better.

 

[CsHead]

ftfy

 

[quiltlady]

You didn't apply very broadly if you have no interviews. It is possible your personal statement was not well received and it is possible your LORs were not stellar. If you have been rejected post interview, it isn't because you didn't have the credentials, it is because you don't interview well.

 

[Doctor Strange]

I tend to disagree.

 

[TheShaker]

I'll forgive the absurdity of some of the things in this post just because the stress of the application cycle is high around this time for later applicants.

 

[Geebeejay]

After reading through LizzyM's 2012 QandA session, I've realized why my cycle has been so unsuccessful. The path just isn't that paved for those who only score 30-32 on the MCAT and apply to top 50 programs. In real life and on here I honestly know of only one person (a reapplicant and long time SDN member who changed his handle name on here) who is having a successful season with such an MCAT score. Knowing that I was not the best test taker in the world and that I didn't come from HYPS, I thought there was a way around it, but I am here today telling anyone who will listen that there isn't.

The list of things that will make up for a sub-par MCAT score in the 30-32 range are incredibly short. From my experience they include:

1) URM status
2) Graduating from HYPS. You must have GOOD (to GREAT) letters from faculty from these institutions. The HYPS logos on your letters are key. You also need a GREAT GPA from here: 3.8+.
3) Winning a Rhodes or Marshall. No other awards carry any weight with adcoms. Of course you need to realize that 60%+ of those who win also qualify for #2. That's the kicker here.
4) One to multiple FIRST author publications. They must be first and there is no substitution here. I'm talking peer-reviewed journals only (preferably 4+ index).
5) Years abroad in third world countries making a profound difference that is affirmed by legislation, publications, or letters (from respected individuals). Week trips don't work.
6) Policy legislation. It needs to be profound. You need to take years off after graduation and push through multiple pieces of health care reform.
7) Parents on the faculty. Works every time.

That's pretty much it. As you can see, it's nearly impossible for most average Joe's (like myself) with high ~4.0 GPAs and 30-32 on the MCAT to succeed in the higher tier.

So what won't help. Well, given my credentials above and the fact that I have nearly every one of these things below checked off, I can tell you with certainty that these don't help negate the fact that your MCAT is deemed inferior.

1) High GPA from a school other than HYPS. Doesn't matter, UNLESS it is your ugrad and you are applying to their medical school. It may make a difference then.
2) Letter of recommendation from people other than HYPS. LizzyM said it herself, she doesn't really care about them compared to your numbers.
3) Tons of research. Anything other than a first author publication won't cover any ground with adcoms. The kids who never did research and got 35+ still beat you out.
4) ECs that don't lead to a Rhodes or Marshall (of that caliber). They have to be mind blowing and they have to make up for pedigree. This is nearly impossible. I thought mine were of this caliber, but now I have no idea what is.
5) Awards that aren't Rhodes or Marshall. LizzyM said it herself: she doesn't care about the Goldwater. You can put every other scholarship in list including the Fulbright.
6) Applying later than August. This will absolutely KILL your application. LizzyM said it best, you have to be an all-star from HYPS to get an interview this late.

Again, I'm not talking about kids who numbers absolutely blow, I talking about the middle ground applicants like myself with perfect GPAs, great ECs, and subpar MCATs (30-32).

So what is the best thing you can do to make sure you get a top 50 acceptance. Well be your average Joe BUT get the numbers. Besides being a good student you need the MCAT. Without the MCAT the road is much, much, much harder. Look at LizzyM's post about the cookie-cutter applicant. They have basically done nothing, but their MCAT is superior to the 30-32 slobs like me so they get the kick.

Applying to medical school is wonderful and awe-inspiring. I love it. Have fun. It's wonderful how we judge the future physicians in this country!

I think you missed the point when you were reading that thread.

I have a "subpar" MCAT by your description(let me pause to laugh at the thought of 30-32 being considered "subpar"), and I've had a very successful cycle, despite being a slob by your standards.

 

[La Presse]

What, you never passed a bill or two in Congress? Amateur.

Rather, if you are not a presidential candidate, say hello to Caribbean Schools.


Sent from my iPad using SDN Mobile app.

 

[flyers]

IMO, you have a very narrow definition of "success". The average MCAT for a matriculant last year was 31.2, according to AMCAS. If you score 30-32 on the MCAT, you've still got an excellent chance at being admitted somewhere, provided that the rest of your app is decent. You don't need to do any of the extraordinary things that you mentioned above. Now, it's true that you may not be admitted to the school of your choice, but you can get in to medical school, and you can be a doctor. If becoming a doctor is your primary goal, then getting in anywhere is a successful cycle. (Please consider that ~57% of applicants don't get anywhere and would probably love to attend a non-top-50 school.)

Also, I agree with what NickNaylor said above.

He defined success pretty clearly - getting into a top 50 program. Each person has their own view of "success". I agree completely with the OP. As an OOS student applying to those top schools, everything the OP says applies. If you're in state and it's a state school then the OP is wrong.

Your experiences can't be extrapolated to even a general experience. Maybe you have other glaring weaknesses in your app that you aren't aware of that are really the cause of your woes. Who knows. But some of what you say is just flat out incorrect and it's apparent that you don't know all that much about the process beyond your own very limited experience.

(sent from my phone)

Actually I'm sure a LOT of people could back up what the OP is saying - I'm one of them. Some things the OP said were definitely off, but the gist of what he is saying is absolutely correct.

This may apply to Top 10~20, but not really Top 50. I've met people at multiple interviews outside the top 20 (or top 20 caliber schools that for whatever reason don't make the grade, like Mayo or Brown) that have 3.6s and 31s. I've met several people at top 5 universities that are not "Rhodes Scholar" EC-caliber people who have relatively low stats for what you would expect.

They have to have done something ridiculous to get into those types of programs with those types of stats. Those people are few and far between, contrary to what you sometimes read on SDN.

 

[mzarrowsmith]

ftfy

Thanks for taking care of that.

 

[GreenKitsune]

No offense OP but you're completely wallowing in self-pity. I purposefully held off a year on apps because I knew I had weaknesses that needed to be addressed.

 

[Ppierce baller]

Your experiences can't be extrapolated to even a general experience. Maybe you have other glaring weaknesses in your app that you aren't aware of that are really the cause of your woes. Who knows. But some of what you say is just flat out incorrect and it's apparent that you don't know all that much about the process beyond your own very limited experience.

(sent from my phone)

You scored a 41 on the MCAT. I think this conversation ends right there. Your medical school says it best....they only interview students with 34-38 on the MCAT. There is literally no way around it besides being incredibly out of the norm.

 

[flyers]

You scored a 41 on the MCAT. I think this conversation ends right there. Your medical school says it best....they only interview students with 34-38 on the MCAT. There is literally no way around it besides being incredibly out of the norm.

 

[Narmerguy]

After reading through LizzyM's 2012 QandA session, I've realized why my cycle has been so unsuccessful. The path just isn't that paved for those who only score 30-32 on the MCAT and apply to top 50 programs. In real life and on here I honestly know of only one person (a reapplicant and long time SDN member who changed his handle name on here) who is having a successful season with such an MCAT score. Knowing that I was not the best test taker in the world and that I didn't come from HYPS, I thought there was a way around it, but I am here today telling anyone who will listen that there isn't.

The list of things that will make up for a sub-par MCAT score in the 30-32 range are incredibly short. From my experience they include:

1) URM status
2) Graduating from HYPS. You must have GOOD (to GREAT) letters from faculty from these institutions. The HYPS logos on your letters are key. You also need a GREAT GPA from here: 3.8+.
3) Winning a Rhodes or Marshall. No other awards carry any weight with adcoms. Of course you need to realize that 60%+ of those who win also qualify for #2. That's the kicker here.
4) One to multiple FIRST author publications. They must be first and there is no substitution here. I'm talking peer-reviewed journals only (preferably 4+ index).
5) Years abroad in third world countries making a profound difference that is affirmed by legislation, publications, or letters (from respected individuals). Week trips don't work.
6) Policy legislation. It needs to be profound. You need to take years off after graduation and push through multiple pieces of health care reform.
7) Parents on the faculty. Works every time.

That's pretty much it. As you can see, it's nearly impossible for most average Joe's (like myself) with high ~4.0 GPAs and 30-32 on the MCAT to succeed in the higher tier.

So what won't help. Well, given my credentials above and the fact that I have nearly every one of these things below checked off, I can tell you with certainty that these don't help negate the fact that your MCAT is deemed inferior.

1) High GPA from a school other than HYPS. Doesn't matter, UNLESS it is your ugrad and you are applying to their medical school. It may make a difference then.
2) Letter of recommendation from people other than HYPS. LizzyM said it herself, she doesn't really care about them compared to your numbers.
3) Tons of research. Anything other than a first author publication won't cover any ground with adcoms. The kids who never did research and got 35+ still beat you out.
4) ECs that don't lead to a Rhodes or Marshall (of that caliber). They have to be mind blowing and they have to make up for pedigree. This is nearly impossible. I thought mine were of this caliber, but now I have no idea what is.
5) Awards that aren't Rhodes or Marshall. LizzyM said it herself: she doesn't care about the Goldwater. You can put every other scholarship in list including the Fulbright.
6) Applying later than August. This will absolutely KILL your application. LizzyM said it best, you have to be an all-star from HYPS to get an interview this late.

Again, I'm not talking about kids who numbers absolutely blow, I talking about the middle ground applicants like myself with perfect GPAs, great ECs, and subpar MCATs (30-32).

So what is the best thing you can do to make sure you get a top 50 acceptance. Well be your average Joe BUT get the numbers. Besides being a good student you need the MCAT. Without the MCAT the road is much, much, much harder. Look at LizzyM's post about the cookie-cutter applicant. They have basically done nothing, but their MCAT is superior to the 30-32 slobs like me so they get the kick.

Applying to medical school is wonderful and awe-inspiring. I love it. Have fun. It's wonderful how we judge the future physicians in this country!

I think there are many people, myself included, who would disagree with the majority of your post. Perhaps the easiest place to start is to simply reference some great statistical work Sector9 has done on the national acceptance rates of applicants with various GPAs, MCATs, and ethnicities.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=888650

You'll note, for example, that even the majority of applicants with only a 3.5 GPA & 31 MCAT get accepted somewhere. With a 3.7 GPA that number rises to 70%. Things like Marshall scholarships or publications are nice but the vast majority of applicants, even at top schools, do not have these.

I think you also either misread or misunderstood many of LizzyM's Q&A posts. Though she seemed to indicate that various committees that she has been a part of show some special consideration for HYPS students, the benefit seemed minor in most cases (0.5 LizzyM points) and nowhere near the dominant effect you seem to make it out to be. Keep in mind that your experience is just one of tens of thousands of applicants every year.

 

[La Presse]

You scored a 41 on the MCAT. I think this conversation ends right there. Your medical school says it best....they only interview students with 34-38 on the MCAT. There is literally no way around it besides being incredibly out of the norm.

You beat me to it. Thank God I'm unique.


Sent from my iPad using SDN Mobile app.

 

[Ppierce baller]

He defined success pretty clearly - getting into a top 50 program. Each person has their own view of "success". I agree completely with the OP. As an OOS student applying to those top schools, everything the OP says applies. If you're in state and it's a state school then the OP is wrong.

Yes, flyers. I'm sorrry, I wasn't very clear about it in my first post. I'm only talking about OOS right now. In state is a different ballgame unless we are talking about Umich or one of the Cali schools.

 

[Geebeejay]

He defined success pretty clearly - getting into a top 50 program. I agree completely with the OP. As an OOS student applying to those schools, everything the OP says applies. If you're in state and it's a state school then the OP is wrong.

With an MCAT in that range, I've gotten into a school that is, according to US News rankings, in the top 50, and I haven't done any of those preposterous ideas to "make up" for a "bad" score. I'm sure there are countless others.

Yall need to stop obsessing over irrelevant, arbitrary ranking websites and just work on getting into a medical school you like.

 

[NurWollen]

After reading through LizzyM's 2012 QandA session, I've realized why my cycle has been so unsuccessful. The path just isn't that paved for those who only score 30-32 on the MCAT and apply to top 50 programs. In real life and on here I honestly know of only one person (a reapplicant and long time SDN member who changed his handle name on here) who is having a successful season with such an MCAT score. Knowing that I was not the best test taker in the world and that I didn't come from HYPS, I thought there was a way around it, but I am here today telling anyone who will listen that there isn't.

The list of things that will make up for a sub-par MCAT score in the 30-32 range are incredibly short. From my experience they include:

1) URM status
2) Graduating from HYPS. You must have GOOD (to GREAT) letters from faculty from these institutions. The HYPS logos on your letters are key. You also need a GREAT GPA from here: 3.8+.
3) Winning a Rhodes or Marshall. No other awards carry any weight with adcoms. Of course you need to realize that 60%+ of those who win also qualify for #2. That's the kicker here.
4) One to multiple FIRST author publications. They must be first and there is no substitution here. I'm talking peer-reviewed journals only (preferably 4+ index).
5) Years abroad in third world countries making a profound difference that is affirmed by legislation, publications, or letters (from respected individuals). Week trips don't work.
6) Policy legislation. It needs to be profound. You need to take years off after graduation and push through multiple pieces of health care reform.
7) Parents on the faculty. Works every time.

That's pretty much it. As you can see, it's nearly impossible for most average Joe's (like myself) with high ~4.0 GPAs and 30-32 on the MCAT to succeed in the higher tier.

So what won't help. Well, given my credentials above and the fact that I have nearly every one of these things below checked off, I can tell you with certainty that these don't help negate the fact that your MCAT is deemed inferior.

1) High GPA from a school other than HYPS. Doesn't matter, UNLESS it is your ugrad and you are applying to their medical school. It may make a difference then.
2) Letter of recommendation from people other than HYPS. LizzyM said it herself, she doesn't really care about them compared to your numbers.
3) Tons of research. Anything other than a first author publication won't cover any ground with adcoms. The kids who never did research and got 35+ still beat you out.
4) ECs that don't lead to a Rhodes or Marshall (of that caliber). They have to be mind blowing and they have to make up for pedigree. This is nearly impossible. I thought mine were of this caliber, but now I have no idea what is.
5) Awards that aren't Rhodes or Marshall. LizzyM said it herself: she doesn't care about the Goldwater. You can put every other scholarship in list including the Fulbright.
6) Applying later than August. This will absolutely KILL your application. LizzyM said it best, you have to be an all-star from HYPS to get an interview this late.

Again, I'm not talking about kids who numbers absolutely blow, I talking about the middle ground applicants like myself with perfect GPAs, great ECs, and subpar MCATs (30-32).

So what is the best thing you can do to make sure you get a top 50 acceptance. Well be your average Joe BUT get the numbers. Besides being a good student you need the MCAT. Without the MCAT the road is much, much, much harder. Look at LizzyM's post about the cookie-cutter applicant. They have basically done nothing, but their MCAT is superior to the 30-32 slobs like me so they get the kick.

Applying to medical school is wonderful and awe-inspiring. I love it. Have fun. It's wonderful how we judge the future physicians in this country!

Or you could have applied to DO schools or even to a broader mix of MD schools and had an excellent shot at acceptance. It makes me sad when people or so set on a name brand that they end up getting rejected even with perfectly good stats. Everyone should have some safeties. Having a successful application cycle is all about realizing where you stand, seething reasonable goals, and applying smartly. Are you going to learn anything at Harvard or JH that you wouldn't learn at Drexel?

That said, I understand where you are coming from and I totally agree with you that the way we judge med school applicants can be messed up. With your stats you deserve a seat in med school, and if you are persistent, I am 100% positive that you will get one.

 

[flyers]

Yes, flyers. I'm sorrry, I wasn't very clear about it in my first post. I'm only talking about OOS right now. In state is a different ballgame unless we are talking about Umich or one of the Cali schools.

Exactly. You're probably going to get flamed more but I see what you're saying, and I agree with a lot of it. But that's how the process goes unfortunately!

 

[Doctor Strange]

You scored a 41 on the MCAT. I think this conversation ends right there. Your medical school says it best....they only interview students with 34-38 on the MCAT. There is literally no way around it besides being incredibly out of the norm.

I personally know several people that have applied, gotten interviewed, and successfully been accepted to top 50 schools with these "sub-par" stats you're speaking of. Sure, the schools are on the lower end of the 50 spectrum, no doubt, but they got in just the same.

Is it more of an uphill battle? Of course, but there are a lot of people with the stats you're describing, and schools can't interview them all. As an applicant, you know this and apply strategically. Applying to all top 50 schools, for example, is not smart.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

From your experience of doing what exactly...reading SDN threads?

Anyway, I'm not quite sure what the surprise is. You can see the 25th-75th percentile MCAT range for each school in the MSAR. If you're hitting below that 25th percentile range I would naturally assume that you would need some other parts of your application to stand out. Whether they are the specific things you mentioned can be debated but I don't think it's any surprise that you have to make up for low numbers at a school that wants higher numbers.

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

You scored a 41 on the MCAT. I think this conversation ends right there. Your medical school says it best....they only interview students with 34-38 on the MCAT. There is literally no way around it besides being incredibly out of the norm.

That's not true. I know someone who interviewed at U Chicago and got a 30 on the MCAT. The person actually took the exam twice but is still an exceptional applicant nevertheless.

 

[Ppierce baller]

When life gets tough, you can either get bitter or get better. The fact is, any perceived lack of success you might have are a product of yourself. You have a 30-32 MCAT and a high GPA and people with your stats are getting into schools and you aren't so they must have an edge. Something that is out of your control so it justifies your perceived pack of success. Why don't you be honest with yourself and determine what it is that your application lacks, not what other people must have as an advantage. With your numbers, you obviously must have a deficiency in something completely controllable. Maybe your interest in medicine isn't clear or maybe you haven't demonstrated leadership potential. That's up to you to figure out - but blaming the system doesn't help your predicament.

Control what you can control. What does it mean that I scored a 29 and have a 3.5 GPA and I didn't go to HYPS and I'm not URM (by SDN standards) and I don't have tons of research or a first author publication and I don't have a Rhodes or Fullbright? I got 6 MD interviews and multiple acceptances. I beat out people with a higher GPA and MCAT score because the admissions committee thought I was a better applicant. Don't rue the day you scored in the low 30s on your MCAT - that's only holding you back at a small number of schools. Rue the day you decided to blame this process for your own insecurities.

Get back on the horse. Get rid of the bitter and get better.

Look, I'm not saying that I am a bitter prick or anything like that. I'm am literally very happy for you. As an "underdog" in this process, I like to see people being given the benefit of the doubt despite their scores. I'm just stating the fact of what it is like to be an excellent student outside of one aspect of your application and apply to medical school. If I could increase my MCAT score substantially, I would. I'm just not in that position and I am currently doing everything possible to "compensate" for when I reapply. I just don't think there really is any way to compensate (aside from doing the utterly remarkable). If you could see my application now, it is far from bad, but I'm sitting here unsuccessful. So instead of attacking me, please help me understand why my thinking is incorrect when an adcom spelled out that my experience this year is not out of the norm.

Congrats though, I hope you end up matching a specialty of your choice and have a fruitful career.

 

[pre med 2014]

Lol

 

[flyers]

With an MCAT in that range, I've gotten into a school that is, according to US News rankings, in the top 50, and I haven't done any of those preposterous ideas to "make up" for a "bad" score. I'm sure there are countless others.

Yall need to stop obsessing over irrelevant, arbitrary ranking websites and just work on getting into a medical school you like.

I personally know several people that have applied, gotten interviewed, and successfully been accepted to top 50 schools with these "sub-par" stats you're speaking of. Sure, the schools are on the lower end of the 50 spectrum, no doubt, but they got in just the same.

Point taken. I think the OP's argument would make more sense if you only apply it to top 40 programs. Even though rankings are somewhat arbitrary (and I agree with the bolded part of your post), the gist of what the OP is saying is still true, especially if applied to top 40 programs. And I think applicants should be made aware of that, because you wouldn't necessarily understand that fact if you only browsed through SDN.

 

[dsoz]

Why the focus on top 50 programs? If your stats are so "poor" with "only" a 30-32 MCAT (greater than 80th percentile) then you should look at lesser schools. Have you considered going Caribbean? Just kidding.

Your OP makes you sound like an entitled, spoiled, brat. There are a lot of people that would be very happy with your scores. It would give them an easy acceptance to ANY medical school, just not the top 50 schools.

When I was applying, I would have been happy getting in anywhere. Every medical school in the US will give you an excellent education. I applied to about 20 schools, both MD and DO. I did my research to match my application list to schools where I would be willing to move and that had LizzyM scores +/-2 from my stats. Very few of the schools where I applied were top 50 schools. But the schools would have fit me, that is more important than USNews ranking. I just happened to get lucky with my (top 50) acceptance at my state school. I even have the exact MCAT range you are referring to. Of the 7 items you listed as needed to get into a top program, I have ZERO.

It sounds to me like you need to eat a slice of humble pie and apply to a few schools that are ranked a little lower, but are still excellent schools. Then you will get an acceptance, and you will still be a physician.

dsoz

 

[Ppierce baller]

No offense OP but you're completely wallowing in self-pity. I purposefully held off a year on apps because I knew I had weaknesses that needed to be addressed.

Again, yes I do feel pretty bad these days. There are some things I wish I could go back and change and reshape the way I viewed my college years. Besides the MCAT there aren't any glaring weaknesses in my applications, its actually quite strong. These medical school just won't interview you unless your numbers are top notch and there is no such thing as "compensation"...well except for those points I listed.

I will either try to change the numbers or the schools by next year. I'm just trying to help others understand this process so there aren't people in my situation come next year.

 

[ilikevegetables]

You scored a 41 on the MCAT. I think this conversation ends right there. Your medical school says it best....they only interview students with 34-38 on the MCAT. There is literally no way around it besides being incredibly out of the norm.

I agree with you that it's tougher to get into a top program with a lower MCAT, as the test is definitely something admissions committees take into consideration. Still, I think you probably meant to quote this from Pritzker's admission site:

Our entering class has MCAT scores ranging from 27 through a 44, though the majority of students present scores in the 34–38 range.

http://pritzker.uchicago.edu/admissions/faq.shtml

... which makes it clear that those with "subpar" scores are not entirely disqualified. Also, on the other hand, check out the threads for top schools - you'll see tons of people with stellar scores getting rejected.

 

[Textbookversion]

Why in gods name do you need to go to a top "50" school. Top 50 is kind of a silly distinction anyway. I didn't apply to any "top 50" schools despite having a higher MCAT/similar GPA to you.

Because I am at a geographically convenient school am I going to fail as a doctor? Will people look at my diploma and say "OMG LAWL really they were outside the top 50 in the early 2010's how can you live with yourself having gone to that school?"

Are residency programs going to say, "hey man I'd love to rank you higher but I checked the USNWR rankings for your school and we have applicants from a school ranked 48th, and you are lower than that, sorry but USNWR is in charge we just can't take you."

Frankly it is pretty silly and shows how delusional premeds are. Going to a top 10ish school will make a difference for an academic career and for matching at the tippy-top residencies. Other than that, your performance in medical school is going to determine where you end up.

The reality is that in a couple of years people are going to call me "doctor" and for now you're just another washout that couldn't make it.

 

[CliveStaples]

Look, I'm not saying that I am a bitter prick or anything like that. I'm am literally very happy for you. As an "underdog" in this process, I like to see people being given the benefit of the doubt despite their scores. I'm just stating the fact of what it is like to be an excellent student outside of one aspect of your application and apply to medical school. If I could increase my MCAT score substantially, I would. I'm just not in that position and I am currently doing everything possible to "compensate" for when I reapply. I just don't think there really is any way to compensate (aside from doing the utterly remarkable). If you could see my application now, it is far from bad, but I'm sitting here unsuccessful. So instead of attacking me, please help me understand why my thinking is incorrect when an adcom spelled out that my experience this year is not out of the norm.

Congrats though, I hope you end up matching a specialty of your choice and have a fruitful career.

I'm not trying to attack you - I just don't want to permeate the myth that what your academics convey is something unacceptable to med schools. What LizzyM represents is the opinion of one person at one school that she admits is more numbers oriented than the average school. She even admits that in that single room are people that are more or less attracted to different things in an application - that's why you can't just point to one thing like your MCAT to be the problem. Yes, that might be the problem if the average matriculating mcat score is a 34, but not many schools in the country have that high of an average, and thus they have the luxery of selecting against the 30-32 people. But this is the exception, not the rule. Posters above me have already shown the aggregate numbers and the numbers from the AAMC website are widely available, and with an MCAT and GPA at or above the national average, the only thing keeping you from getting into an average MD program has got to be something else.

You're going to get in. You're determined and you're academically capable. I hope that it's this year, but if not then I hope you have a productive and fulfilled year, regardless. I really do look forward to getting to be a colleague of yours in the larger medical community one day.

 

[Ppierce baller]

I think there are many people, myself included, who would disagree with the majority of your post. Perhaps the easiest place to start is to simply reference some great statistical work Sector9 has done on the national acceptance rates of applicants with various GPAs, MCATs, and ethnicities.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=888650

You'll note, for example, that even the majority of applicants with only a 3.5 GPA & 31 MCAT get accepted somewhere. With a 3.7 GPA that number rises to 70%. Things like Marshall scholarships or publications are nice but the vast majority of applicants, even at top schools, do not have these.

I think you also either misread or misunderstood many of LizzyM's Q&A posts. Though she seemed to indicate that various committees that she has been a part of show some special consideration for HYPS students, the benefit seemed minor in most cases (0.5 LizzyM points) and nowhere near the dominant effect you seem to make it out to be. Keep in mind that your experience is just one of tens of thousands of applicants every year.

Again, please note that I'm not just talking about getting in anywhere. Sure there are a lot of kids sitting in seats at Drexel or Wayne state with the stats I'm describing. I'm just trying to say that average applicants (as I've defined above) stand literally no chance at the top 40-50 schools because admissions has become so number driven to the point where anyone with under a 34-35 is deemed unqualified (unless they hit the marks I described above). I've read many LizzyM posts, and she she seems to be the real deal and tells things how adcoms at here level perceive students. This forum is meant to help students, and I'm just trying to paint the other side of the picture that just doesn't get discussed enough.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Again, please note that I'm not just talking about getting in anywhere. Sure there are a lot of kids sitting in seats at Drexel or Wayne state with the stats I'm describing. I'm just trying to say that average applicants (as I've defined above) stand literally no chance at the top 40-50 schools because admissions has become so number driven to the point where anyone with under a 34-35 is deemed unqualified (unless they hit the marks I described above). I've read many LizzyM posts, and she she seems to be the real deal and tells things how adcoms at here level perceive students. This forum is meant to help students, and I'm just trying to paint the other side of the picture that just doesn't get discussed enough.

Top 50? How many schools do you think there are?

My school is easily top 25 by any analysis and we have many people with the stats you cite. most, actually. There are only a handful of schools with higher avg stats than you are describing.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[flyers]

I agree with you that it's tougher to get into a top program with a lower MCAT, as the test is definitely something admissions committees take into consideration. Still, I think you probably meant to quote this from Pritzker's admission site:



http://pritzker.uchicago.edu/admissions/faq.shtml

... which makes it clear that those with "subpar" scores are not entirely disqualified. Also, on the other hand, check out the threads for top schools - you'll see tons of people with stellar scores getting rejected.

Seriously? Ok, so there was that one Nature author who had a 27 MCAT, cured a disease, and perhaps was URM

But seriously come on, you can't buy into the "stats marketing" that schools provide. They just aren't realistic. And if you think they are realistic (for example, expecting to interview at Pritzker with a <33-34 MCAT and standard application otherwise), then boy are you in for a rude wake-up call come application time.

And that's what's happening to the OP. Applicants need to be better informed about the real numbers behind this process, rather than the garbage on some schools' websites.

 

[Ppierce baller]

... which makes it clear that those with "subpar" scores are not entirely disqualified. Also, on the other hand, check out the threads for top schools - you'll see tons of people with stellar scores getting rejected.

Yes, but let's be real here. Those kids who get into Uchicago with under a 34 are definately on that list I described in my first post. The difference between students who get rejected from top schools with top stats and those with low (30-32) is that the top stats will inevitably get accepted by another top school. Don't look at it like that. Those of us with low stats hope for one interview from a top school and have such a slim margin of error it's not even funny. One slip up and we are done. The margin of error gets larger and larger as your MCAT creeps up.

 

[hizziaips]

Again, please note that I'm not just talking about getting in anywhere. Sure there are a lot of kids sitting in seats at Drexel or Wayne state with the stats I'm describing. I'm just trying to say that average applicants (as I've defined above) stand literally no chance at the top 40-50 schools because admissions has become so number driven to the point where anyone with under a 34-35 is deemed unqualified (unless they hit the marks I described above). I've read many LizzyM posts, and she she seems to be the real deal and tells things how adcoms at here level perceive students. This forum is meant to help students, and I'm just trying to paint the other side of the picture that just doesn't get discussed enough.

Med school admissions is competitive. The problem you're facing is that many of your target schools have enough applicants scoring 35+ to fill their classes many times over, and many of these applicants also have very strong ECs. So you're correct in that you have to go above and beyond to compensate for a lower MCAT score.

My advice is this: The admissions process is what it is. I can understand your frustration, but you're not going to change the way things work. If you want to be a doctor, perhaps your best chance is to target schools outside the top 50. There are many excellent schools at which you can receive a great education.

 

[Ppierce baller]

Top 50? How many schools do you think there are?

My school is easily top 25 by any analysis and we have many people with the stats you cite. most, actually. There are only a handful of schools with higher avg stats than you are describing.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

Are you talking about UWashington by any chance? Is it a state school? I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear in my opening post, I only referring to private institutions (for the most part).

 

[Narmerguy]

Point taken. I think the OP's argument would make more sense if you only apply it to top 40 programs. Even though rankings are somewhat arbitrary (and I agree with the bolded part of your post), the gist of what the OP is saying is still true, especially if applied to top 40 programs. And I think applicants should be made aware of that, because you wouldn't necessarily understand that fact if you only browsed through SDN.

Again, please note that I'm not just talking about getting in anywhere. Sure there are a lot of kids sitting in seats at Drexel or Wayne state with the stats I'm describing. I'm just trying to say that average applicants (as I've defined above) stand literally no chance at the top 40-50 schools because admissions has become so number driven to the point where anyone with under a 34-35 is deemed unqualified (unless they hit the marks I described above). I've read many LizzyM posts, and she she seems to be the real deal and tells things how adcoms at here level perceive students. This forum is meant to help students, and I'm just trying to paint the other side of the picture that just doesn't get discussed enough.

I suppose I'm confused what the point you're trying to make is. Is there a subset of schools at which it becomes increasingly difficult to get accepted with mediocre MCAT scores? Of course there is. Thousands of students score above a 36.

If you're trying to suggest that the only way to get into these schools is by pushing through healthcare reform legislation, being a minority, or publishing a bunch of papers, you'll need to substantiate that in some way. Einstein is ranked 39th and their median MCAT is a 33 (with a 10th-percentile score of 30 for accepted students). That means that 40% of their accepted students are scoring either a 30, 31,32, or 33. 10% of them are scoring a 30 or below. There aren't enough Rhodes Scholars in a year to fill those numbers.

I understand that you may be frustrated at striking out this cycle. That happens. But before you adopt unrealistic views on what it takes to get accepted to these schools, why don't you explore the SSD forum (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=688) where you'll find a network of students who also interview and get accepted at these schools. You'll find that many of them have MCAT scores below 32.

 

[KnuxNole]

Big question: Why ONLY top 50 schools? That doesn't make sense at all. Of course you're gonna be below average....You can argue that applying to a Top10/ school is giving them free money. Why focus on schools that wont want you for a second, when you can focus on schools within your own league. It's like dating....don't only chase 10/10 bombshells and wonder why you can't get any dates...


Why not apply to ANY MD medical school? That way, you'll be average/above average. Not applying broad enough is a crutch for people. Lots of medical schools are strong. Like others said, getting in to any med school in general is hard(half of applicants fail to do so....)

 

[jcaptian]

With an MCAT in that range, I've gotten into a school that is, according to US News rankings, in the top 50, and I haven't done any of those preposterous ideas to "make up" for a "bad" score. I'm sure there are countless others.

Yall need to stop obsessing over irrelevant, arbitrary ranking websites and just work on getting into a medical school you like.

Truth.

 

[aspiring20]

OP, you have fantastic stats and (from you've described) great ECs. it really is shocking that you havent gotten any good news by this time of the cycle. but like what many others have said, if you have to apply again (which i hope you don't), don't focus too much on the usnews week rankings and apply to plenty of schools that aren't ranked.

and it also seems that you applied in august? that could be the only reason why you havent received any good news. if there's a next time, send in your primary by the end of june. also, are there any major red flags on your app? i mean things like serious IAs (cheating, etc), criminal convictions (serious ones, not nonsense parking tickets or MIPs), etc?

anyways, everyone on here knows that you'll become a doctor. it's just a matter of time.

 

[diamondgal1337]

This may apply to Top 10~20, but not really Top 50. I've met people at multiple interviews outside the top 20 (or top 20 caliber schools that for whatever reason don't make the grade, like Mayo or Brown) that have 3.6s and 31s. I've met several people at top 5 universities that are not "Rhodes Scholar" EC-caliber people who have relatively low stats for what you would expect.

The difference I would hazard a guess at is that they showed dedication to what they've done instead of treating the whole process like a checklist. There is something substantial to be gained from entering college trusting that medical school will work out and then naturally exploring the things that interest you the most.

Sorry I had to repost this. I see so many people just doing stuff because they think they have to and not committing fully to it..and then you try to talk about your half-assed experiences and spin it into something where it looks so special..adcoms can see through BS most of the time.

 

[Ppierce baller]

Sorry I had to repost this. I see so many people just doing stuff because they think they have to and not committing fully to it..and then you try to talk about your half-assed experiences and spin it into something where it looks so special..adcoms can see through BS most of the time.

See, this just wasn't me. I really had a passion for what I did. I did it (well several great things) every day of the week for years at a time even while holding a heavy work-load. If that didn't show dedication, I honestly don't know what ever will. I was sincere. I also described this in my essays and descriptions because I have had to do similar types of writing when applying for collegiate and national awards. Just, none of it matters at this level it seems. Try hard on the MCAT and in school, it's just too hard to make it back up when they deem your academics inferior. Good luck.

 

[ilikevegetables]

Seriously? Ok, so there was that one Nature author who had a 27 MCAT, cured a disease, and perhaps was URM

But seriously come on, you can't buy into the "stats marketing" that schools provide. They just aren't realistic. And if you think they are realistic (for example, expecting to interview at Pritzker with a <33-34 MCAT and standard application otherwise), then boy are you in for a rude wake-up call come application time.

And that's what's happening to the OP. Applicants need to be better informed about the real numbers behind this process, rather than the garbage on some schools' websites.

Yes, but let's be real here. Those kids who get into Uchicago with under a 34 are definately on that list I described in my first post. The difference between students who get rejected from top schools with top stats and those with low (30-32) is that the top stats will inevitably get accepted by another top school. Don't look at it like that. Those of us with low stats hope for one interview from a top school and have such a slim margin of error it's not even funny. One slip up and we are done. The margin of error gets larger and larger as your MCAT creeps up.

Sorry guys, maybe I set you up a little bit for this one . I am an applicant that applied to Pritzker (among several great programs on my list) with under a 34, without any of the characteristics in your list, OP, and I received an interview invite. I do think the rest of my application is strong, but I don't have any of those things that you list. I agree that candidates in my position need to be all the more impressive in other respects in order to "make up for" the MCAT score, but I don't think that there is a specific list of accomplishments that can do the job. I'm not an adcom member, but I'd venture a guess that they're looking for things that are slightly less tangible than the MCAT, like competencies (being able to do well academically, yeah, but also being able to lead, to work well in groups, perhaps to conduct sound research).

Granted, expecting to get an interview invite to *any* one school is dicey business.

 

[Frazier]

Med school admissions is competitive. The problem you're facing is that many of your target schools have enough applicants scoring 35+ to fill their classes many times over, and many of these applicants also have very strong ECs. So you're correct in that you have to go above and beyond to compensate for a lower MCAT score. ....

This.