Thinking about attending a DO school. What are the downsides?

[tijames]

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Figured the allopathic group would be bet to answer this.


I'm interested in ortho especially- can I attend well respected residency and fellowships as a DO?

 

[aSagacious]

I encourage you to search phrases like 'MD vs DO', 'osteopathic vs allopathic', etc as this topic has been discussed ad nauseum and you are bound to find many threads that address your question.

 

[tantacles]

I encourage you to search phrases like 'MD vs DO', 'osteopathic vs allopathic', etc as this topic has been discussed ad nauseum and you are bound to find many threads that address your question.

+1

inb4 someone posts the beating a dead horse icon.

 

[octupus]

+1

inb4 someone posts the beating a dead horse icon.

you mean this?

 

[tantacles]

you mean this?

Yeah, I just didn't want to be mean and post it myself, that's all.

 

[octupus]

Yeah, I just didn't want to be mean and post it myself, that's all.

Oh thanks! I've always wanted to post that and you've given me the perfect opportunity.

OP, yes, you can match into ortho as a DO, but keep in mind it's competitive. even if you attend a MD school, it will still be competitive.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=137433

http://www.aoao.org/residents/residencies.iphtml

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=1669230&postcount=5

 

[235788]

OP its going to be 20x harder to match ortho as a DO than a MD because of the number of spots. Start considering emergency med.

 

[Catalystik]

Here is raw data. Go down to grid number 5 and 6 to see total DO grads matching into NRMP and AOA residencies in Ortho: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12109604

 

[ppappui]

I have applied to both MD and DO this cycle and have been accepted to a DO school, so I'll give you my opinion on it.
Since there are more allopathic residency spots, especially in the specialty area, a lot of students in my accepted school take the USMLE on top of the COMLEX. That's 2 exams you have to prepare for, which are less than a month apart. So that is 1 qualm I have about a DO school.
Also, DO's are not internationally recognized as MDs and thus cannot practice in certain countries. If you're looking into going abroad to practice in the future, a DO degree will likely hold you back, especially if you want to go to East Asia or Western Europe.
Since DO schools teach OMM, this is one more thing that you need to study on top of the basic sciences. Generally, it is 1 hour of lecture and at least 2 hours of lab work per week. In my accepted school, it's a total of 4 hours a week.

These are the general obstacles that faces a DO student that an MD student does not need to worry about. The rest, such as curriculum, facilities, faculty, research, rotations, etc are purely school-related, so I suggest you research the school: If you want P/F instead of letter grade, for example.
Good luck

 

[tiedyeddog]

The downside? You making a thread about it when you should have searched. That is the true sadness in all of this madness.

 

[octupus]

Also, DO's are not internationally recognized as MDs and thus cannot practice in certain countries. If you're looking into going abroad to practice in the future, a DO degree will likely hold you back, especially if you want to go to East Asia or Western Europe.
Good luck

more difficult... definitely. as far as western Europe and Asia, DO have practicing rights in a handful of countries like UK, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Taiwan, and Hong Kong.

http://www.westernu.edu/bin/ime/international-practice-rights.pdf

 

[Rippey]

Figured the allopathic group would be bet to answer this.


I'm interested in ortho especially- can I attend well respected residency and fellowships as a DO?

you won't be doing ortho if you go DO... i guarantee it

 

[DryHopped]

you won't be doing ortho if you go DO... i guarantee it

Are you saying through an allopathic residency? If so, that is probably true. But, the OP could land a DO ortho spot which would allow them to become an orthopedic surgeon. I know that may not be considered a "respected" route by some on this forum (which is ridiculous) but it is possible and will give the OP the training to become a competent surgeon.

 

[235788]

many DO schools lack the resources to do clinical research...

Plus the class sizes are absurdly large, compared to many MD schools

 

[AU750]

you won't be doing ortho if you go DO... i guarantee it

There are plenty of osteo residencies you can do ortho in, so yes I guarantee you can.

many DO schools lack the resources to do clinical research...

Plus the class sizes are absurdly large, compared to many MD schools

Many class sizes are much smaller than MD ones. Not sure which schools you are speaking of.

 

[SpecterGT260]

The AOA has an exclusive match with ortho as one of the choices. IIRC the odds are significantly better - perhaps even than MD because of the lower competition

 

[SpecterGT260]

There are plenty of osteo residencies you can do ortho in, so yes I guarantee you can.


Many class sizes are much smaller than MD ones. Not sure which schools you are speaking of.

I think as a rule DO schools have larger class sizes. In a system with dozens of "equal but different" organizational structures it is pretty inappropriate to find 1 exception and ascribe any meaning to it. That said... Individual class size shouldn't affect matching so the point is moot

 

[drizzt3117]

The AOA has an exclusive match with ortho as one of the choices. IIRC the odds are significantly better - perhaps even than MD because of the lower competition

There are ~80 spots for ortho in the AOA match and 680 in the ACGME, I'm not sure there's better odds because it's very rare for DO students to match in the ACGME match.

 

[SpecterGT260]

There are ~80 spots for ortho in the AOA match and 680 in the ACGME, I'm not sure there's better odds because it's very rare for DO students to match in the ACGME match.

There are also significantly more MD students. I believe DO students go into primary care at a higher rate than MD which opens seats in AOA match.

For 5500 DO students, there are 68.75 students per AOA ortho seat. Compared to 18600 MD students, there are 27.35 students per AMA seat.

Anecdotally I know that the graduating class at my school had so many ortho applicants that they had to sit some down and talk chances. If ortho application rates in MD schools exceeds DO as would be expected with the high primary care rates, the odds could be much better than you think.

 

[AU750]

There are also significantly more MD students. I believe DO students go into primary care at a higher rate than MD which opens seats in AOA match.

For 5500 DO students, there are 68.75 students per AOA ortho seat. Compared to 18600 MD students, there are 27.35 students per AMA seat.

Anecdotally I know that the graduating class at my school had so many ortho applicants that they had to sit some down and talk chances. If ortho application rates in MD schools exceeds DO as would be expected with the high primary care rates, the odds could be much better than you think.

Also factor in at least half the DO students match into MD residencies which puts those numbers even closer. Granted the DO students who apply only DO are, in most cases, either highly competitive applicants or below average applicants. The highly competitive ones go for the specialties and the less competitive ones go for the others.

 

[drizzt3117]

Also factor in at least half the DO students match into MD residencies which puts those numbers even closer. Granted the DO students who apply only DO are, in most cases, either highly competitive applicants or below average applicants. The highly competitive ones go for the specialties and the less competitive ones go for the others.

half the DO students aren't matching into ACGME ortho. In 2011 only two DO grads matched into ACGME ortho.

Source: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf

I am sure the ortho application rate among MD students than among DO, but how much higher, I don't know if it's 3x.

 

[AU750]

half the DO students aren't matching into ACGME ortho. In 2011 only two DO grads matched into ACGME ortho.

Source: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf

I am sure the ortho application rate among MD students than among DO, but how much higher, I don't know if it's 3x.

Right but that wasn't my point. Based on this quote:

"For 5500 DO students, there are 68.75 students per AOA ortho seat. Compared to 18600 MD students, there are 27.35 students per AMA seat"

I meant half (of those 5500) will match ACGME in anything (FP to derm). Leaving roughly 2750 DO students for AOA match only. That leaves 31.9 students per ortho seat (there are 86 AOA ortho seats).

 

[SpecterGT260]

half the DO students aren't matching into ACGME ortho. In 2011 only two DO grads matched into ACGME ortho.

Source: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf

I am sure the ortho application rate among MD students than among DO, but how much higher, I don't know if it's 3x.

That isnt the point.


In another NBME paper it said that there were only 800 or so total applicants to MD ortho out of 16000 students total. 5%.

So if 5% of DO students apply AOA ortho, that means there are 275 students for 80 seats, basically 3.4 students per seat. Them ain't bad odds.... and that is assuming a similar DO showing for ortho compared to MD

 

[whatbout2morrow]

Here is raw data. Go down to grid number 5 and 6 to see total DO grads matching into NRMP and AOA residencies in Ortho: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12109604

👍

Pay attention to the "NRMP + AOA Matching Percentages".

Orthopedic surgery -> 3.85% for US MD and 2.56% for US DO

 

[AU750]

👍

Pay attention to the "NRMP + AOA Matching Percentages".

Orthopedic surgery -> 3.85% for US MD and 2.56% for US DO

I saw that earlier too. Great work by OP of that. So yes Ortho is easier as MD, but as stated before you would expect more MD students to apply for it than DO students so who knows?

 

[whatbout2morrow]

I saw that earlier too. Great work by OP of that. So yes Ortho is easier as MD, but as stated before you would expect more MD students to apply for it than DO students so who knows?

True. Applicant vs Match data would be more useful.

 

[willen101383]

I have applied to both MD and DO this cycle and have been accepted to a DO school, so I'll give you my opinion on it.
Since there are more allopathic residency spots, especially in the specialty area, a lot of students in my accepted school take the USMLE on top of the COMLEX. That's 2 exams you have to prepare for, which are less than a month apart. So that is 1 qualm I have about a DO school.
Also, DO's are not internationally recognized as MDs and thus cannot practice in certain countries. If you're looking into going abroad to practice in the future, a DO degree will likely hold you back, especially if you want to go to East Asia or Western Europe.
Since DO schools teach OMM, this is one more thing that you need to study on top of the basic sciences. Generally, it is 1 hour of lecture and at least 2 hours of lab work per week. In my accepted school, it's a total of 4 hours a week.

These are the general obstacles that faces a DO student that an MD student does not need to worry about. The rest, such as curriculum, facilities, faculty, research, rotations, etc are purely school-related, so I suggest you research the school: If you want P/F instead of letter grade, for example.
Good luck

The only difference in actual material between the 2 exams is OMM. Most people who take both (at my school something like 30%) schedule the 2 exams about a week apart. Study for the usmle..take it....study OMM for a week and you are golden.

People act like this is somehow a huge issue...but you already studied for usmle by studying for comlex...so your only real commitment is 8 hours in a testing center vs sitting on ur ass that day relaxing. Not a big deal considering the countless number of exams you take on your pathway to being a physician.

 

[SpecterGT260]

👍

Pay attention to the "NRMP + AOA Matching Percentages".

Orthopedic surgery -> 3.85% for US MD and 2.56% for US DO

I saw that earlier too. Great work by OP of that. So yes Ortho is easier as MD, but as stated before you would expect more MD students to apply for it than DO students so who knows?

all of those numbers are straight out of an NRMP paper published anually.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf

I looked it over earlier..... the issue is it doesn't give total applicant data.

Those match percentages are talking about % of the total class who went into any given specialty. The numbers could just as easily say it is easier to go ortho as DO because there is less competition. From what I see they don't give % match rate for the specialty to it is still up in the air.

Also.... 3.85% * 23421 (total US seniors for that year)= 901 applicants (+ a slightly shorter applicant). Where did those other 231 applicants go? there were only 670 spots for that year.....


Edit: on the link i posted page 11 has SOME applicant data. looks like 820 us MD seniors applied ortho for the 670 spots.

EDIT EDIT: found this on another paper. only 1600 DO's went through the AOA match in 2007. If we keep with the 5% application rate we used earlier this is 5% * 1600 = 80.
THAAAAAATSSS convenient lol.

 

[AU750]

All in all, I think we can say getting ortho as a DO is probably not as daunting as many seem to think. In actuality it may be quite similar. Difference is the MD residencies will, for the most part, be more established and have a wider array of locations. Being able to crack bones (do OMM) as an orthopod can't hurt either.

 

[mipp0]

People also don't consider quality of rotations, associated medical center/hospital, commute, chances of getting into prestigious/well known residencies, quality of residency, chances at fellowship, quality of fellowship, opp. for research, LOR from well known professors, chances of joining a well established, high volume medical group, chances of practicing in California, etc.

MDs would have the advantage for the above, for the most part.

There are some well regarded DO schools, and it will be more work (lot more work), but it's possible to do very well and match well. Same can't be said for IMGs. Truly an up-mountain battle for them...

 

[LieutenantDan]

Does anyone have any thoughts on how DO compares to MD for competitiveness in trying to obtain an ACGME residency with regard to differences in the degree alone? Take for example 2 applicants with identical stats and USMLE scores, one from a high-tier DO program and another from a mid-tier MD program, applying for a residency that is not ultra-competitive but not easy either, like neurology or general surgery.
Would there be a significant advantage to an MD over a DO in this case or would most ACGME residency programs treat them equally?

I only ask because I was told this by a 4th year osteopathic student:

"As a DO student pre-matched into allopathic residency, I would still highly recommend doing your best to get into an MD school. With some variation depending on allopathic institution, specialty, and region, with the same effort you will have experiences matching that range from somewhat disadvantaged to nearly impossible as an osteopathic applicant.

You're in the comfortable position of already being accepted into medical school, but don't "settle" for osteopathic school if your heart is set on allopathic residency. While you can still get where you want to go now, pre-matching is out the door next year and matching will continue to get harder as a non-MD candidate in the future."

 

[drizzt3117]

Read the chart I affixed to your post...

Does anyone have any thoughts on how DO compares to MD for competitiveness in trying to obtain an ACGME residency with regard to differences in the degree alone? Take for example 2 applicants with identical stats and USMLE scores, one from a high-tier DO program and another from a mid-tier MD program, applying for a residency that is not ultra-competitive but not easy either, like neurology or general surgery.
Would there be a significant advantage to an MD over a DO in this case or would most ACGME residency programs treat them equally?

I only ask because I was told this by a 4th year osteopathic student:

"As a DO student pre-matched into allopathic residency, I would still highly recommend doing your best to get into an MD school. With some variation depending on allopathic institution, specialty, and region, with the same effort you will have experiences matching that range from somewhat disadvantaged to nearly impossible as an osteopathic applicant.

You're in the comfortable position of already being accepted into medical school, but don't "settle" for osteopathic school if your heart is set on allopathic residency. While you can still get where you want to go now, pre-matching is out the door next year and matching will continue to get harder as a non-MD candidate in the future."

 

[Gut Shot]

Figured the allopathic group would be bet to answer this.


I'm interested in ortho especially- can I attend well respected residency and fellowships as a DO?

Possible downsides to DO school (some already mentioned):
- "Spending" valuable time on OMM
- Third year clerkships often ambulatory, primary care oriented, and could be all over the country
- Likelihood of having to take USMLE in addition to COMLEX
- A disproportionate number of DO residency programs are in Ohio and Michigan
- In the match an allopathic grad with stats comparable to yours will usually be chosen over you
- The AOA's got your balls forever

 

[SpecterGT260]

Does anyone have any thoughts on how DO compares to MD for competitiveness in trying to obtain an ACGME residency with regard to differences in the degree alone? Take for example 2 applicants with identical stats and USMLE scores, one from a high-tier DO program and another from a mid-tier MD program, applying for a residency that is not ultra-competitive but not easy either, like neurology or general surgery.
Would there be a significant advantage to an MD over a DO in this case or would most ACGME residency programs treat them equally?

I only ask because I was told this by a 4th year osteopathic student:

"As a DO student pre-matched into allopathic residency, I would still highly recommend doing your best to get into an MD school. With some variation depending on allopathic institution, specialty, and region, with the same effort you will have experiences matching that range from somewhat disadvantaged to nearly impossible as an osteopathic applicant.

You're in the comfortable position of already being accepted into medical school, but don't "settle" for osteopathic school if your heart is set on allopathic residency. While you can still get where you want to go now, pre-matching is out the door next year and matching will continue to get harder as a non-MD candidate in the future."

for ACGME residencies it will go from nearly identical in some specialties to strongly in favor of MD.

There is occasional talk that some like primary care prefer DO to MD.... this is mostly a specific interpretation of the fact that DOs in general are over-represented in primary care and primary care ACGME residencies.

 

[GomerPyle]

And the sad truth - people will never respect you as much as an MD. You weren't good enough to get into an allopathic school.

I am not saying that we are all respect hungry, but for the amount of stress and hard work we put into medicine, one of the greater rewards/benefits is the respect of the public...

 

[flatearth22]

And the sad truth - people will never respect you as much as an MD. You weren't good enough to get into an allopathic school.

I am not saying that we are all respect hungry, but for the amount of stress and hard work we put into medicine, one of the greater rewards/benefits is the respect of the public...

michaeljacksoneatingpopcorn.gif

 

[418865]

And the sad truth - people will never respect you as much as an MD. You weren't good enough to get into an allopathic school.

I am not saying that we are all respect hungry, but for the amount of stress and hard work we put into medicine, one of the greater rewards/benefits is the respect of the public...

this is getting SOOO old...in every single of my clinical volunteering experience..I haven't seen a SINGLE instance where say the head of a department (MD, PhD) looked down upon an attending or a CNA..or an MD looked down upon a DO or RN (hell, I didn't even know who is what until I actually looked at their badge). Real world is so much different than the whole SDN rhetoric on how MDs are SO MUCH MORE respected than DOs blah blah..sure u might get some patients wondering what DO stands for...but even that...I didn't see...on the other hand, I have heard patients denying treatment from a doctor coz of their race.

 

[LieutenantDan]

And the sad truth - people will never respect you as much as an MD. You weren't good enough to get into an allopathic school.

I am not saying that we are all respect hungry, but for the amount of stress and hard work we put into medicine, one of the greater rewards/benefits is the respect of the public...

I dont think this is universally the case, both of my parents are allopathic physicians and they have tremendous respect for some DOs in the community. My mom is an attending in a military IM residency and she says that DOs are often her best residents.

And in general respect is something that is earned, not afforded to you by virtue of the letters after your name. No matter what career path you choose, it is your actions and not your title that determine whether people respect you.

 

[DrBowtie]

this is getting SOOO old...in every single of my clinical volunteering experience..I haven't seen a SINGLE instance where say the head of a department (MD, PhD) looked down upon an attending or a CNA..or an MD looked down upon a DO or RN (hell, I didn't even know who is what until I actually looked at their badge). Real world is so much different than the whole SDN rhetoric on how MDs are SO MUCH MORE respected than DOs blah blah..sure u might get some patients wondering what DO stands for...but even that...I didn't see...on the other hand, I have heard patients denying treatment from a doctor coz of their race.

Let's be honest though...would this person outwardly share their true feelings with you? There are plenty of secret racists, sexists, elitists, etc.

 

[418865]

It'd be quite funny though if say an MD walks by the hall, and several patients stop him/her to praise his/her hard work, dedication and being smart enough to go to MD school instead of DO...and we all know DOs aren't real doctors anyway.

 

[418865]

Let's be honest though...would this person outwardly share their true feelings with you? There are plenty of secret racists, sexists, elitists, etc.

true there definitely are...at the end, the real life is much different and more complex than what people say in the forum (about the whole MD vs. DO thing at least)...

 

[drizzt3117]

this is getting SOOO old...in every single of my clinical volunteering experience..I haven't seen a SINGLE instance where say the head of a department (MD, PhD) looked down upon an attending or a CNA..or an MD looked down upon a DO or RN (hell, I didn't even know who is what until I actually looked at their badge). Real world is so much different than the whole SDN rhetoric on how MDs are SO MUCH MORE respected than DOs blah blah..sure u might get some patients wondering what DO stands for...but even that...I didn't see...on the other hand, I have heard patients denying treatment from a doctor coz of their race.

I've seen MDs make fun of DOs... It just is what it is. Most of that happened in surgery but I've seen it in other fields too.

 

[flatearth22]

I've seen MDs make fun of DOs... It just is what it is. Most of that happened in surgery but I've seen it in other fields too.

What was the nature of it? Was it an indictment on the individual for not being able to get into an MD school or rather the quality of the DO education (ie OMM)?

 

[418865]

wow it's quite dumb that an MD you've seen made fun of a DO (assuming the reason was that they've DO beside their name instead of MD)..next you'll see a Radiologist making fun of an IM for not matching into a competitive residency program like him/her..

 

[tiedyeddog]

wow it's quite dumb that an MD you've seen made fun of a DO (assuming the reason was that they've DO beside their name instead of MD)..next you'll see a Radiologist making fun of an IM for not matching into a competitive residency program like him/her..

Uhm, yeah? I see this is your first rodeo.

It is my great pleasure to

you to medicine.

 

[ChiDO]

DO's have their own ortho residency programs. Many of them are top notch, rotate at phenomenal places along side MD ortho residents. There were 82 ortho spots this past year for the DO match with 200+ applicants vs. the MD match which has 630 spots with 800+ applicants (i'm pulling these ##"s from memory).

As for fellowships, basically you can apply to all as an MD or DO; they take the best applicants for the "best" spots. For example, Dr. James Andrews (sports) has DO ortho fellows in his program in FL and GA.

 

[rafman]

Sorry to post another question or change the topic a little, but how would a DO fare trying to match into a mid tier to low tier university hospital internal med program?

 

[AU750]

DO's have their own ortho residency programs. Many of them are top notch, rotate at phenomenal places along side MD ortho residents. There were 82 ortho spots this past year for the DO match with 200+ applicants vs. the MD match which has 630 spots with 800+ applicants (i'm pulling these ##"s from memory).

As for fellowships, basically you can apply to all as an MD or DO; they take the best applicants for the "best" spots. For example, Dr. James Andrews (sports) has DO ortho fellows in his program in FL and GA.

When he used to be partners with Larry Lemak and his son David I shadowed David in their practice. I remember they had a DO fellow. To be associated with them in the sports ortho world is huge.

 

[koennen]

DO's have their own ortho residency programs. Many of them are top notch, rotate at phenomenal places along side MD ortho residents.

Care to name some of these top notch DO ortho residency programs as well as the phenomenal places at which they rotate along side MD ortho residents?

 

[DrBowtie]

Sorry to post another question or change the topic a little, but how would a DO fare trying to match into a mid tier to low tier university hospital internal med program?

Good chance.