Thinking about Navy HPSP? Think Again

[dimunoz]

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If any of you out there are considering signing up for the Navy HPSP please please know all the facts before signing on that dotted line. The recruiters fail to tell you many things until it is too late. First of all... think think think about where you want to be after internship year. Many many of you will deploy and many of you will be assigned your 3rd choice billet. If you are involved in a relationship with another medical student or resident who is Not involved with the military your relationship is likely to suffer tremendously. Many billets are located in undesireable locations where your significant other may not be able to do a residency. And the military gives NO preference to officers married to Non-military people (They probably will try to tell you otherwise). Also, if you are assigned to a ship or with the Marines your deployment can be up to 10 months if not more. I was definitely not told this by the recruiter. Be careful with who tells you what. Most people you come across will tell you what you want to hear. Make sure you are talking to the right people when asking your questions and don't settle for half ass answers. This is your life and once you sign, it becomes theirs. And about the money thing. Think about this..... for the years you lose doing your GMO at around what?.... $80,000, those are years you lose making full physician salary in the outside world. In our case. we come out even with no real financial benefit, only a lot of personal misery. Trust me, it usually sounds better than it actually is. Best of Luck Doctors.

 

[militarymd]

Tell us about your experience.....I think everyone is tired of hearing mine.

 

[dimunoz]

millmd, I've read many of your posts and they sound very much like what my husband and I are about to face. My husband & I met in med school and were both looking into the Navy HPSP. I, unlike my husband (boyfriend at the time) asked the inexperienced recruiter serious hardcore questions that he could not answer. He had me calling all over the country & even Puerto Rico to get my questions answered. When I repeatedly got shady anwers I knew the military was hiding something huge and I gave up the HSPS idea feeling like I had just left a Used Car lot. Unfortunately, my husband blindly signed up and now we are both left with a very gloomy future. I forewent ranking very prestigious residency programs in order to support my husband while he "Served his country". I matched at a less known program in a location where "they" told us would not be a problem getting my husband assigned to because there were numerous billets at this location. Well long story short, I'm headed to one state while my husband is sent to another. The billet was his third choice and he was basically threatened by his detailer into putting it down. I can only imagine what other lies and threats we are going to encounter. I just wanted to make others aware so that they are not surprised when the Navy rips the rug out from beneath them. Reminder.... the needs of the Navy come before almost EVERYTHING!

 

[Spang]

1. I really like the way you put 'Served his country' in quotation marks. Makes me want to sing the Star Spangled Banner.

2. Sorry if your husband got his 3rd billet choice, I'm sure hundreds of people involved in the civilian match every year have no idea what it's like not to get their first choice.

3. "Many of you will deploy.." Really? Deploy? In the military?

4. I would guess that the majority of officers are married to "Non-military people" and I would also guess that would make it difficult to give the majority of the people "preference."

5. I don't know where the "undesirable location" you speak of is, but I bet there's more than a few people who get out of bed there every morning and feel lucky to have what they have, despite living there.

6. Sorry for your "personal misery." I can't imagine how it would be for two young, presumably healthy people living in the richest nation in the world to tolerate one of them only making $80,000 while "Serving their country."

I would like to go on but my eyes are getting all misty thinking about your plight. God bless you and good luck.

 

[militarymd]

1. I really like the way you put 'Served his country' in quotation marks. Makes me want to sing the Star Spangled Banner.

2. Sorry if your husband got his 3rd billet choice, I'm sure hundreds of people involved in the civilian match every year have no idea what it's like not to get their first choice.

3. "Many of you will deploy.." Really? Deploy? In the military?

4. I would guess that the majority of officers are married to "Non-military people" and I would also guess that would make it difficult to give the majority of the people "preference."

5. I don't know where the "undesirable location" you speak of is, but I bet there's more than a few people who get out of bed there every morning and feel lucky to have what they have, despite living there.

6. Sorry for your "personal misery." I can't imagine how it would be for two young, presumably healthy people living in the richest nation in the world to tolerate one of them only making $80,000 while "Serving their country."

I would like to go on but my eyes are getting all misty thinking about your plight. God bless you and good luck.

The above poster's plight is something that people in Iraq could only dream of.....but what it boils down to is what your expectations are.....being told one thing by a recruiter then finding out what you signed up for is not what you thought you were signing up for can be worse than being told right off the bat that you ARE going to Iraq.

 

[haujun]

millmd, I've read many of your posts and they sound very much like what my husband and I are about to face. My husband & I met in med school and were both looking into the Navy HPSP. I, unlike my husband (boyfriend at the time) asked the inexperienced recruiter serious hardcore questions that he could not answer. He had me calling all over the country & even Puerto Rico to get my questions answered. When I repeatedly got shady anwers I knew the military was hiding something huge and I gave up the HSPS idea feeling like I had just left a Used Car lot. Unfortunately, my husband blindly signed up and now we are both left with a very gloomy future. I forewent ranking very prestigious residency programs in order to support my husband while he "Served his country". I matched at a less known program in a location where "they" told us would not be a problem getting my husband assigned to because there were numerous billets at this location. Well long story short, I'm headed to one state while my husband is sent to another. The billet was his third choice and he was basically threatened by his detailer into putting it down. I can only imagine what other lies and threats we are going to encounter. I just wanted to make others aware so that they are not surprised when the Navy rips the rug out from beneath them. Reminder.... the needs of the Navy come before almost EVERYTHING!

The Navy's expectation of your husband's duties as an officer will not be changed because he decide to tie the knot with you. You may be surprised to find out that far more sacrifices are expected and given from military spouses every day and they still do not cry out as you did here because they truely understand the duty as a soldier.

 

[dimunoz]

My point is only to reinforce what many have written before me......sign up for HPSP if it is a soldier you want to be. Otherwise don't do it all.

 

[dry dre]

1. I really like the way you put 'Served his country' in quotation marks. Makes me want to sing the Star Spangled Banner.

2. Sorry if your husband got his 3rd billet choice, I'm sure hundreds of people involved in the civilian match every year have no idea what it's like not to get their first choice.

3. "Many of you will deploy.." Really? Deploy? In the military?

4. I would guess that the majority of officers are married to "Non-military people" and I would also guess that would make it difficult to give the majority of the people "preference."

5. I don't know where the "undesirable location" you speak of is, but I bet there's more than a few people who get out of bed there every morning and feel lucky to have what they have, despite living there.

6. Sorry for your "personal misery." I can't imagine how it would be for two young, presumably healthy people living in the richest nation in the world to tolerate one of them only making $80,000 while "Serving their country."

I would like to go on but my eyes are getting all misty thinking about your plight. God bless you and good luck.

Frank Burns, is that you?

 

[MoosePilot]

My point is only to reinforce what many have written before me......sign up for HPSP if it is a soldier you want to be. Otherwise don't do it all.

Good advice. If you don't want to be a soldier, sailor, or airman - don't sign up to be one.

 

[bobbyseal]

This physician married into the HPSP. It seems pretty typical that it is generally the spouses who get screwed over by the military, especially when the spouse has a career of his/her own.

Her story seems typical of how the military preys upon students going to private medical schools where the debt seems outrageous. While so many of us who are in medical school like to say, "well, you know what you got yourself into." Frankly, I don't think many of us do. I know I didn't. That being said, I'm not going to welsh on my commitment.

Give it some more time, and when you start to realize the earning potential you have as a physician, you may change your tune. Now, that I'm heading into residency and starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel, I realize how drastic the pay and lifestyle differential is within the military.

I think a lot of people on this board are often quick to flame people who complain about the HPSP. Frankly, I don't really buy the love it or leave it attitude.

 

[Mirror Form]

I forewent ranking very prestigious residency programs in order to support my husband while he "Served his country". I matched at a less known program in a location where "they" told us would not be a problem getting my husband assigned to because there were numerous billets at this location. Well long story short, I'm headed to one state while my husband is sent to another.

Ouch, that is very unfortunate. Being stationed apart will be tough, but there is a good chance that you could try switching residency programs. It's inconvenient, but worth looking into. Keep in mind that when married to the military, you can't just expect things to happen as planned. You need to have contingencies for things like this and be prepared to deal with them. I mean come on, we all know not to believe somebody when they tell you that you'll definitely get your #1 ranked program (in the military or civilian world).

Also, one question: since the military match occurs well before the civilian match, how did you not know where he had matched when making your rank list?

 

[dry dre]

I think a lot of people on this board are often quick to flame people who complain about the HPSP. Frankly, I don't really buy the love it or leave it attitude.

I wish more people felt this way.

When I was in, the "Old Corps" blowhards helped to maintain an environment that pushed out (what I would describe as) more rational servicemembers. In the service, being hard is often the macho, hard-core way to be. At the same time, the old saying "it's easy to be hard, hard to be smart" applies.

Despite what some people tend to think, strict order/discipline and common sense are not mutually exclusive, particularly as rank and education increases. Unfortunately many people are stuck in E-2 mode for life, in the officer and enlisted ranks.

Is it impossible to run a medical corps that more aligns the needs of the servicemembers with the needs of the service? There are countless stories in this forum where idiotic servicemembers in positions of authority get it wrong on both accounts... To tell people to "suck it up" serves neither the needs of the country or the servicemembers. Rant off.

 

[helo doc]

Good points have been made on both sides of this debate, however for all of those considering signing on the dotted line, take the original posted advice and "think again". This is 3-4 years of your life, at a minimum. This is not a lease on a new car. This is not buying a house. This is your life. The old saying of "sounds too good to be true, so it can't be that good" is very appropriate. You're signing up for the MILITARY. We DEPLOY to BAD PLACES. There will be lots of SEPARATION FROM LOVED ONES. Generally speaking the PAY ISN'T GREAT. You must be willing to TAKE ORDERS and serve at the pleasure of those appointed above you. It's NOT FOR EVERYONE. So, before you sign, THINK AGAIN. Take some time and think it over. Read the posts on this forum, the positive and negative. If you decide to sign on, you'll have done so with your eyes wide open. Hopefully, this will obviate the need in the future to get on the forum and sing the "somebody done me wrong" song.

Like anything else in life, you take the good with the bad. Would I do it again? Quicker than you can say "My recruiter lied to me." Is it all fun and games? Not even close. Worth the pain? You betcha.

Semper Gumby,
Helo Doc

 

[Trajan]

If you don't want to be a Naval officer, don't join the Navy. If you do, HPSP is a very good deal.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

If you don't want to be a Naval officer, don't join the Navy. If you do, HPSP is a very good deal.

financially speaking, hpsp is not a "very good deal". at best it's an equivalent financial deal if you plan on a career as a pediatrician/fp/psych or as a lower-paying medical specialist.

the only way that hpsp makes financial sense is if you're planning on being a military doctor anyway. it's a bad option if you are just looking for a free ride in med school.

 

[MS3NavyFS2B]

If any of you out there are considering signing up for the Navy HPSP please please know all the facts before signing on that dotted line. The recruiters fail to tell you many things until it is too late. First of all... think think think about where you want to be after internship year. Many many of you will deploy and many of you will be assigned your 3rd choice billet. If you are involved in a relationship with another medical student or resident who is Not involved with the military your relationship is likely to suffer tremendously. Many billets are located in undesireable locations where your significant other may not be able to do a residency. And the military gives NO preference to officers married to Non-military people (They probably will try to tell you otherwise). Also, if you are assigned to a ship or with the Marines your deployment can be up to 10 months if not more. I was definitely not told this by the recruiter. Be careful with who tells you what. Most people you come across will tell you what you want to hear. Make sure you are talking to the right people when asking your questions and don't settle for half ass answers. This is your life and once you sign, it becomes theirs. And about the money thing. Think about this..... for the years you lose doing your GMO at around what?.... $80,000, those are years you lose making full physician salary in the outside world. In our case. we come out even with no real financial benefit, only a lot of personal misery. Trust me, it usually sounds better than it actually is. Best of Luck Doctors.

THINKING ABOUT READING HER POST: THINK AGAIN: don’t pay much attention to this grammatically-inept, thought-deprived, emotionally-driven, ignorant rambling of American pseudo-prose.

CHECK IT OUT:

She writes, “The recruiters fail to tell you many things until it is too late.” Is it their fault? Most of us have a more active internal locus of control than this.

She writes, “think think think about where you want to be after internship year. Many many of you will deploy and many of you will be assigned your 3rd choice billet.” This is interesting. How many civilian applicants get their first choice residency?

She writes, “If you are involved in a relationship with another medical student or resident who is Not involved with the military your relationship is likely to suffer tremendously.” What about those of us involved in a relationship with another human being outside of medicine . . . will those relationships suffer, too, or is the suffering limited only to those in medicine? I not even sure what she means here. Isn’t internship and residency a difficult time for everyone (except for my lover and I)?

She writes, “And the military gives NO preference to officers married to Non-military people (They probably will try to tell you otherwise).” LOL…well, I suppose if preference was given to all “officers” married to “non-military people” we would have a serious national security issue, wouldn’t we?

She writes, “Many billets are located in undesireable [sic] locations where your significant other may not be able to do a residency.” Gosh, how could I forget . . . not only must the military train military doctors, but now they must provide training for non-military doctors, as well. Phewwwwww, this one is about as sharp as a beeswax candle.

She writes, “your deployment can be up to 10 months if not more.” Wait, she applied to the NAVY HPSP, right?

She writes, “don't settle for half ass answers.” Thanks, I don’t. Do you?

She writes, “Think about this..... for the years you lose doing your GMO at around what?.... $80,000.” Think about this . . . PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Do the mathematics: it doesn’t pay financially to do it after 10 years (in most specialties at today’s interest rates). This one is presuming a financial benefit, but there isn’t one to be had in the first instance, which I find amusing (since her reasoning for joining was financial, which also SUCKS FOR YOU).

Good luck dimunoz. You’ll need it.

FLY NAVY, baby.

 

[dry dre]

Again, to all considering going into the military, note the malignant attitudes represented here...you will end up having to work with them, often in close quarters. People who "get off" on military hardship are always the ones who seem more likely to stay in, attain rank, and end up being the same irresponsible leadership that can be read about elsewhere on these boards.

I spent over 5 years in the Corps as an enlisted man and I hate whining more than the next guy. At the same time, it is irresponsible to lure in people who have no concept of what the military is. In the least, when you DO bring these people in, you can't be surprised and **** on them left and right when they feel that they weren't informed as to what they signed into.

It shouldn't be amazing to people with higher education that not everyone knows what military life is like...

 

[Trajan]

financially speaking, hpsp is not a "very good deal". at best it's an equivalent financial deal if you plan on a career as a pediatrician/fp/psych or as a lower-paying medical specialist.

the only way that hpsp makes financial sense is if you're planning on being a military doctor anyway. it's a bad option if you are just looking for a free ride in med school.

Read what I said again. If being a Naval officer is an experience that you would like to have, then HPSP allows you to have that life experience and go to school for free. That is a good deal.

In my situation, I seriously considered attending West Point or Annapolis when I was younger, but opted for a college where I could get a classical liberal education. Though I was thrilled to study classics at a liberal arts college, I sometimes wondered if an academy would have been a better place for me, as I still had the desire to serve in the military for a few years. I also wanted to attend medical school. HPSP allows me to do both, and as a bonus the government pays for my medical education (roughly a quarter million dollars). Honestly, a career in the Navy is probably not in my future (never say never, but it's unlikely). Nevertheless, I don't believe that 4-5 years of active duty service is a waste of time as do some disgruntled HPSP'ers.

All things said, this is a very good deal for me personally, professionally, and financially.

 

[Croooz]

THINKING ABOUT READING HER POST: THINK AGAIN: don’t pay much attention to this grammatically-inept, thought-deprived, emotionally-driven, ignorant rambling of American pseudo-prose.

CHECK IT OUT:

She writes, “The recruiters fail to tell you many things until it is too late.” Is it their fault? Most of us have a more active internal locus of control than this.

She writes, “think think think about where you want to be after internship year. Many many of you will deploy and many of you will be assigned your 3rd choice billet.” This is interesting. How many civilian applicants get their first choice residency?

She writes, “If you are involved in a relationship with another medical student or resident who is Not involved with the military your relationship is likely to suffer tremendously.” What about those of us involved in a relationship with another human being outside of medicine . . . will those relationships suffer, too, or is the suffering limited only to those in medicine? I not even sure what she means here. Isn’t internship and residency a difficult time for everyone (except for my lover and I)?

She writes, “And the military gives NO preference to officers married to Non-military people (They probably will try to tell you otherwise).” LOL…well, I suppose if preference was given to all “officers” married to “non-military people” we would have a serious national security issue, wouldn’t we?

She writes, “Many billets are located in undesireable [sic] locations where your significant other may not be able to do a residency.” Gosh, how could I forget . . . not only must the military train military doctors, but now they must provide training for non-military doctors, as well. Phewwwwww, this one is about as sharp as a beeswax candle.

She writes, “your deployment can be up to 10 months if not more.” Wait, she applied to the NAVY HPSP, right?

She writes, “don't settle for half ass answers.” Thanks, I don’t. Do you?

She writes, “Think about this..... for the years you lose doing your GMO at around what?.... $80,000.” Think about this . . . PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Do the mathematics: it doesn’t pay financially to do it after 10 years (in most specialties at today’s interest rates). This one is presuming a financial benefit, but there isn’t one to be had in the first instance, which I find amusing (since her reasoning for joining was financial, which also SUCKS FOR YOU).

Good luck dimunoz. You’ll need it.

FLY NAVY, baby.

Wear a uniform...then talk.

She isn't the officer and is just showing how upset and frustrated someone who isn't informed or is lied to can become. It's YOUR responsibility to learn the truth and accept it for yourself. If you get halfass answers and end up unhappy then that's your problem...however this guy has now put her in this position. So does she leave him or just deal with the unfortunate deck of cards she's been dealt?

 

[llort]

i think dimunoz and nueronix should get married to each other so neither has to continue to worry about how their significant others choice to join the military will affect their lives.

 

[Neuronix]

i think dimunoz and nueronix should get married to each other so neither has to continue to worry about how their significant others choice to join the military will affect their lives.

PS: 100% agreement with dry dre's post.

 

[Mirror Form]

i think dimunoz and nueronix should get married to each other so neither has to continue to worry about how their significant others choice to join the military will affect their lives.

Hahahahahahahahaahahaha 👍

 

[Mirror Form]

Again, to all considering going into the military, note the malignant attitudes represented here...you will end up having to work with them, often in close quarters. People who "get off" on military hardship are always the ones who seem more likely to stay in, attain rank, and end up being the same irresponsible leadership that can be read about elsewhere on these boards.

Well, I don't think it's surprising that people who actually believe in serving their country get annoyed when other people who signed up for the military just for $$ start complaining. It's especially annoying when the people complaining about not enough $$ are going to be filthy rich. Both Neuronix and Dimunov are physicans who are married to other physicians (so they'll probably be in the top few percent, if not one percent, of family incomes). They're going to have more money then they know what to do with, so when they start complaining about it, who doesn't want to tell them to shut up? Ah, it's so sad that they'll have to survive on just 350k per year until their spouse's get out of the military so they can get 500k.

The deployments are a legitmate reason to not like the military, but they're something that is fairly easy to research. So if you didn't look into them before signing, it's nobody's fault but your own.

 

[Neuronix]

Well, I don't think it's surprising that people who actually believe in serving their country get annoyed when other people who signed up for the military just for $$ start complaining.

Absolutely. So tell your recruiters to stop lying to prospectives. I got a flyer in the mail a few days ago about Navy Dental (why I have no idea). The whole thing talked about debt and money. Only once did it mention anything about serving your country.

It's especially annoying when the people complaining about not enough $$ are going to be filthy rich.

I wish. People going into medicine are going to filthy rich? You've got to be kidding me. Maybe in a few subspecialties these days. BTW, I must repeat: there is no amount of money that is worth leaving your small children. Everyone thinking about HPSP needs to think about that.

They're going to have more money then they know what to do with, so when they start complaining about it, who doesn't want to tell them to shut up? Ah, it's so sad that they'll have to survive on just 350k per year until their spouse's get out of the military so they can get 500k.

We're here to warn prospectives, not to piss you off. If you can't help responding, that's your problem, not ours. Read the thread title: "Thinking about Navy HPSP." not "If you've already signed"

The deployments are a legitmate reason to not like the military, but they're something that is fairly easy to research. So if you didn't look into them before signing, it's nobody's fault but your own.

No, the military takes no blame in repeatedly lying to people both in and outside of it. Of course not. Everyone should just know that their recruiter is lying to them and that once they sign there's no way out. I'm sorry, not everyone in the world was born as cynical as you. Before this forum was created there was NO WAY TO OBTAIN OBJECTIVE INFORMATION ABOUT HPSP until you signed, unless you had some sort of connection. We're just spreading the word about what it's like to be on the inside. No need to flame.

 

[GeoLeoX]

Before this forum was created there was NO WAY TO OBTAIN OBJECTIVE INFORMATION ABOUT HPSP until you signed, unless you had some sort of connection.

sadly true. the good news is that there has been information about the military posted since i joined this forum five years ago. (and yes, I know that the military residency forum is new, but the information was still here).

G

 

[dry dre]

Well, I don't think it's surprising that people who actually believe in serving their country get annoyed when other people who signed up for the military just for $$ start complaining.

Man, how medical school can bring out the latent patriotism is many of us (read as trip to a recruiter). Where was everyone at age 18 when recruiters were offering jobs where you carry a gun and/or work 60-120 hours/week for less than 20k/year and <11k for college? Ooh, that deal was sweet...


Just curious....what percentage of the enlisted force do you think did NOT sign up for financial reasons?

 

[chopper]

Just curious....what percentage of the enlisted force do you think did NOT sign up for financial reasons?

Before 9/11, I'd say most had some kind of financial reason (or related - like future education benefits, etc). After 9/11, I think the 'patritiotism factor' went way up (ala Pat Tillman). But that feeling is dying down as Iraq drags on.

 

[Croooz]

Just curious....what percentage of the enlisted force do you think did NOT sign up for financial reasons?

I'd say a large percentage enllisted for other than financial reasons. Especially in the Navy there are ALOT of SEAL wannabe's who never made it to BUD/S or didn't complete BUD/S for whatever reason. (DOR, medical, academic) If there are roughly 150/class & 4 classes/year with a 25% pass rate then that leaves about 450 disgruntled sailors.... 😉

Glad to see another prior enlisted puke among us. Maybe now some will listen, in stereo, that made the decision to sign up what NOT to say while in uniform...especially not around the enlisted ranks. This goes for those complaining dependents at the commissary or PX. It just sucks to have to hear about how bad someones husband is having it who has a medical degree, bars on their shoulders, and no debt. Then you, the enlisted, walk up to pay your food with some kind of assistance (WIC, food stamps....) Still need to start & finish college as well as provide for your family and then there's that stuff Gunny asked you to do, there's a pending deployment which you get pulled for so now you have to get your affairs in order and explain to your young bride how she'll have to move into base housing by herself when they call and go to Navy Relief for some help with the move and car that needs repairs.......

Ooops, that's not the point now is it?

The point is make a smart decision, follow thru with it, make it better for those you're with and for those that follow. Trust me that many HPSP'ers in the military focus on the wrong thing. You're in, deal with it and decide to make it better, as much as you can for your troops and fellow docs. It won't be easy but standing around wallowing in your misery as a medical officer in the US military isn't going to make it better for anyone. Get your eyes off yourself and look around...you can do more than just provide medical care.

Pheeeew....RANT over....had some ugly flashbacks. 😎

 

[Neuronix]

Glad to see another prior enlisted puke among us. Maybe now some will listen, in stereo, that made the decision to sign up what NOT to say while in uniform...especially not around the enlisted ranks.

I know you always get angry when I say this, and I'm not trying to minimize anyone's hardship. But, there is one difference. Med students are signing up 4 - 9 years (depending on residency/length of residency) before they actually have to do their 4+ years of service. That's most of their 20s, and their lives could be radically different by the time they actually have to serve. The enlisted men sign and know they're serving the immediate next 4 years of their life. It's a little different, and I think that's why HPSPs should be allowed out of the contract (with payback obviously) if things change for them.

 

[Croooz]

I know you always get angry when I say this, and I'm not trying to minimize anyone's hardship. But, there is one difference. Med students are signing up 4 - 9 years (depending on residency/length of residency) before they actually have to do their 4+ years of service. That's most of their 20s, and their lives could be radically different by the time they actually have to serve. The enlisted men sign and know they're serving the immediate next 4 years of their life. It's a little different, and I think that's why HPSPs should be allowed out of the contract (with payback obviously) if things change for them.

round & round we go....

How long do enlisted men & women have to stay till they are able to get out and land on their feet? The fallacy is believing that enlisted only sign up for 2-4 years. There are those who get duped into 6 years. There are many schools which you must be an E5 to be able to get to apply to. Due to manning quotas some take years and years to make it to E5. There are programs that will incur a payback EVEN within the enlisted ranks.

The difference is 95% of enlisted are coming in expecting to get crapped on and deal with it. 95% of HPSP come in with "this isn't supposed to be this way..." The other difference is the military hasn't paid some school between $75k-$250k for this person...upfront.

Like I said we can go round & round with this but you're just not going to convince me that a HPSP has it worse or any harder than the enlisted. Med school is paid for and with the stipend the majority of enlisted would view that as a sweet deal. This is the exact discussion that I would love for those HPSP students to internalize and just accept that you will not convince the smartest or dumbest enlisted of how bad it is for you....just not going to happen. In front of your troops speak factually about your situation IF you have to, don't make it sound like complaining but above all do your best to help your troops with their goals.

round & round

 

[cdreed]

round & round we go....

How long do enlisted men & women have to stay till they are able to get out and land on their feet? The fallacy is believing that enlisted only sign up for 2-4 years. There are those who get duped into 6 years. There are many schools which you must be an E5 to be able to get to apply to. Due to manning quotas some take years and years to make it to E5. There are programs that will incur a payback EVEN within the enlisted ranks.

The difference is 95% of enlisted are coming in expecting to get crapped on and deal with it. 95% of HPSP come in with "this isn't supposed to be this way..." The other difference is the military hasn't paid some school between $75k-$250k for this person...upfront.

Like I said we can go round & round with this but you're just not going to convince me that a HPSP has it worse or any harder than the enlisted. Med school is paid for and with the stipend the majority of enlisted would view that as a sweet deal. This is the exact discussion that I would love for those HPSP students to internalize and just accept that you will not convince the smartest or dumbest enlisted of how bad it is for you....just not going to happen. In front of your troops speak factually about your situation IF you have to, don't make it sound like complaining but above all do your best to help your troops with their goals.

round & round

As a former E-4 now HPSP student, I couldn't agree more. I am grateful that I have the opportunity to further my education... and the last thing that any enlisted personnel want or need to hear is how bad a Medical Officer has it. Come on. A physician's financial and personal well-being by far surpasses that of the typical NCO.

 

[militarymd]

Like I said we can go round & round with this but you're just not going to convince me that a HPSP has it worse or any harder than the enlisted. Med school is paid for and with the stipend the majority of enlisted would view that as a sweet deal.

For those of you who are saying great things about HPSP.....You are comparing Apples and Oranges.

HPSP should be compared to a loan.....not the enlisted!!!

Enlisting should be compared to taking a job at Walmart stocking shelves after high school....in which case enlisting is an OUTSTANDING opportunity.

Comparing enlisting to HPSP is nuts.....just like taking the HPSP scholarship if you know the details.....which the majority of HPSP students do not....That is what the original post was meant to convey.

 

[SquidDoc]

Enlisting after high school allowed me to serve my country, and at the same time come out with a ton of great service and leadership experience. I came out with an undergrad degree paid for, new car, and landed a job as a microbiologist when I got out after my first 5 years. Not too many of my typical college-bound friends from high school did that well. Its all about what you make of it, and yes, when I was enlisted, I got pretty tired of hearing officers whine...the good ones never did that in front of anyone!

I am proud of being prior-enlisted, and I will never forget where I came from. What exactly did the "prior enlisted puke" comment from from? 😕

 

[militarymd]

Enlisting after high school allowed me to serve my country, and at the same time come out with a ton of great service and leadership experience. I came out with an undergrad degree paid for, new car, and landed a job as a microbiologist when I got out after my first 5 years. Not too many of my typical college-bound friends from high school did that well. Its all about what you make of it, and yes, when I was enlisted, I got pretty tired of hearing officers whine...the good ones never did that in front of anyone!

I am proud of being prior-enlisted, and I will never forget where I came from. What exactly did the "prior enlisted puke" comment from from? 😕

Like I said, compared to stocking shelves at Walmart, its a great deal.....Compared to HPSP....well...not such a great deal.

 

[deegs]

Like I said, compared to stocking shelves at Walmart, its a great deal.....Compared to HPSP....well...not such a great deal.

I think what's objectionable about your statement is that it implies that the "other choice" for a person enlisting is a job as a Walmart stockboy. This is an elistist attitude that unfortunately characterizes too many members of the officer corps; sounds to me like you never got to know any of the enlisted while you were in the military.... On average, they are capable of much, much more....

 

[militarymd]

I think what's objectionable about your statement is that it implies that the "other choice" for a person enlisting is a job as a Walmart stockboy. This is an elistist attitude that unfortunately characterizes too many members of the officer corps; sounds to me like you never got to know any of the enlisted while you were in the military.... On average, they are capable of much, much more....

Tell me this....what kind of job are you "capable" of getting with a high school education under your belt at the age of 18 that is "much, much more" than stocking shelves at Walmart?????

 

[dry dre]

I originally brought up the 18yo issue on account of the "serving my country" talk that was being thrown around by future medical officers.

I don't know how to easily or diplomatically explain this here, but when I was in, it would have created laughter to hear a medical officer say aloud that they were "serving their country." Medical officers were perceived to be half civilian, half military...hell, most docs have one foot out the door the day after they show up (payback time). I can't imagine that this has changed much.

 

[militarymd]

Tell me this....what kind of job are you "capable" of getting with a high school education under your belt at the age of 18 that is "much, much more" than stocking shelves at Walmart?????

I think what's objectionable about your statement is that it implies that the "other choice" for a person enlisting is a job as a Walmart stockboy. This is an elistist attitude that unfortunately characterizes too many members of the officer corps; sounds to me like you never got to know any of the enlisted while you were in the military.... On average, they are capable of much, much more....

No rebuttal?

 

[MoosePilot]

I originally brought up the 18yo issue on account of the "serving my country" talk that was being thrown around by future medical officers.

I don't know how to easily or diplomatically explain this here, but when I was in, it would have created laughter to hear a medical officer say aloud that they were "serving their country." Medical officers were perceived to be half civilian, half military...hell, most docs have one foot out the door the day after they show up (payback time). I can't imagine that this has changed much.

Well, no matter what someone else thinks, being a military doctor *is* serving your country. The one who was blown up in Iraq is a national hero just like our other combat deaths.

 

[dry dre]

Well, no matter what someone else thinks, being a military doctor *is* serving your country. The one who was blown up in Iraq is a national hero just like our other combat deaths.

You don't have to be in the military to serve your country.

The point was, on the continuum of Tunnel Rat<--------->Donald Trump service to country, I don't think that Medical Officers are as close to the Tunnel Rat end of things as many future medical officers here tend to view themselves (I'm NOT saying saying that they're closer to Donald Trump).

 

[MoosePilot]

You don't have to be in the military to serve your country.

The point was, on the continuum of Tunnel Rat<--------->Donald Trump service to country, I don't think that Medical Officers are as close to the Tunnel Rat end of things as many future medical officers here tend to view themselves (I'm NOT saying saying that they're closer to Donald Trump).

I don't follow your line of thought at all. You seem to be crafting a contiuum where pretty much everyone serves the country and the main distinguishing feature is how unpleasant, difficult, and unrewarding their service is.

I don't see serving your country in this light at all.

 

[dry dre]

I don't follow your line of thought at all. You seem to be crafting a contiuum where pretty much everyone serves the country and the main distinguishing feature is how unpleasant, difficult, and unrewarding their service is.

I don't see serving your country in this light at all.

I don't see serving one's country in this light either.

AT THE SAME TIME, to hear medical officers get all romantic and talk about "serving their country," well, they must think that they're going to liberate France or something. There's a subtlty in this that I can't explain...you either get it, or you don't.

If anything, medical officers should know not to get all self-patriotic and romantic around enlisted servicemembers who have jobs that suck worse than most medical officers can appreciate (folks, residency ain't the worst thing going), who are making about as much as their counterparts back home at Walmart (on a per hour basis).

 

[MoosePilot]

I don't see serving one's country in this light either.

AT THE SAME TIME, to hear medical officers get all romantic and talk about "serving their country," well, they must think that they're going to liberate France or something. There's a subtlty in this that I can't explain...you either get it, or you don't.

If anything, medical officers should know not to get all self-patriotic and romantic around enlisted servicemembers who have jobs that suck worse than most medical officers can appreciate (folks, residency ain't the worst thing going), who are making about as much as their counterparts back home at Walmart (on a per hour basis).

I see what you're saying. By the same token, though, I don't serve my country in the same way that the infantry guys did. They went from Kuwait to Baghdad in an incredible marathon push. I heard rumors that they didn't sleep for days. I saw pics of when they did sleep in the shadows of their vehicles or in flooded holes in the ground. The guys going door to door in Fallujah are another good example.

However, when they're ready to get out of Baghdad, I know they're happy to get on my plane. The plane I brought in through potential SAM coverage and/or small arms fire. We've had three cargo airplanes hit going into country. I don't know, I definitely consider it service. I know there are easier jobs I could do for the same pay.

On some of those flights, I've had docs riding in with me. I've taken several docs into and out of country. They risked getting hit going in with me and then they risked getting mortared or rocketed on the ground. Like I said earlier, one doctor already died in a rocket attack.

That is service. There are many other jobs you could get as a doctor that pay more and are easier. People enter the military with some education and then do some job - you can't impugn some of their service because it's not as menial, because they're risking death and contributing to their country's defense just the same.

 

[militarymd]

......who have jobs that suck worse than most medical officers can appreciate (folks, residency ain't the worst thing going), who are making about as much as their counterparts back home at Walmart (on a per hour basis).

Have you done a residency? If not, you cannot compare the sacrifice of the enlisted to the sacrifice of going through residency....


I'm still waiting for a deegs to tell me what "great" things you can do other than Walmart type jobs with a HS diploma at age 18?

 

[dry dre]

Have you done a residency? If not, you cannot compare the sacrifice of the enlisted to the sacrifice of going through residency....

True.

Note to self for June 2010: I now realize that, given the number of fellow house officers who were shot, kidnapped, committed suicide, lost extremities, have PTSD, and often have no skills to offer the civilian workforce and no job opportunities, residency is indeed comparable or worse than enlisted service.

 

[dry dre]

you can't impugn some of their service because it's not as menial, because they're risking death and contributing to their country's defense just the same.

I absolutely agree with you, and mean to suggest nothing of the sort.

 

[militarymd]

I absolutely agree with you, and mean to suggest nothing of the sort.

But you ARE.

 

[militarymd]

I'm still waiting for a deegs to tell me what "great" things you can do other than Walmart type jobs with a HS diploma at age 18?

Comes back to this....some people can offer certain things....things that soldiers endure....other can offer others....becoming physicians to take care of sick and ill people.

Some of the young enlisted may have the potential to eventually become physicians, but the young enlisted are at a completely different stage in life than those who become physicians....If you don't realize that, than I don't what to say to you.

 

[dry dre]

But you ARE.

I don't know from what you are taking this. I've been saying quite the opposite (maybe you're thinking of something someone else has said?)

I'm saying that, if ANYONE is going to start bragging about serving their country it shouldn't be the new meat who signed up to get money for med school AND start spouting what great patriots they are. Puhleeeze.

I originally asked where all these great patriots were at age 18 when they could have signed up for jobs where they would carry a gun, or work one of a thousand countless 'thankless' jobs that civilians simply can't begin to appreciate.

To be clear, part III: I am not discounting the enlisted service...if anyone, I'm discounting the officer corps who considers it a great sacrifice to do what a MEDICAL OFFICER does relative to what the average enlisted man does.

 

[dry dre]

Some of the young enlisted may have the potential to eventually become physicians, but the young enlisted are at a completely different stage in life than those who become physicians....If you don't realize that, than I don't what to say to you.

I agree, and I'm one of them. But I don't buy the "different stage of life" statement, other than in a broad generalization.

When I compare my average med school classmate (we've now graduated) to the average enlistedman I served with, I don't see such a "stage in life" difference. Certainly, there is a difference in education, but work ethic? Responsibility? In the net, no way. Many of the students AND RESIDENTS that I've worked with would be subject to a late night lesson (Code Red if you like) for piss poor attitude, lack of responsibilty, laziness, lack of integrity, etc, etc, etc. When does this great "stage in life" change thing occur?

If I realize anything, it's that we differ a bit in that I don't value judge the enlisted man as inately immature, irresponsible, or having of any other trait that makes them "at a different stage of life." The #1 thing I learned about people-life in the military is the capability of the average person. People of all colors and backgrounds can naturally excel when given opportunity and responsibility.