Thinking of Medcial School

[AxisNP]

I am considering Medical School. So I have a lot of questions. I hope some here can answer them.

1) How are the course usually laid out? For instance is it 8 hours a day? 12 hours one day then 4-6 other days? Is it semesters? etc.

2) I am 38 years old now. I need two physics courses as pre-requisites. So I am thinking like in 3 years (if I get accepted). Do you think this is too old?

3) Do any of you have jobs as well as children and how do/did you work medical school around this?

4) I have heard from a couple PA's that there are medical schools that have are shorter (2 years) but are more intense and are designed for NPs. Does anyone know of these?

5) Do you think an MCAT prep course is a good idea? Do you recommend any?

6) I would prefer to take my physics courses at a community college but have been told many medical schools won't accept these, is this correct?



In case anyone is wondering, I am thinking on this because multiple times in my life I have been told I should. First time was a professor in undergraduate school who refused to write me a reference unless it was medical school. Obviously I didn't listen. Then periodically other times. I eventually did end up in Nursing School. ANyway, the nurses I work with and a couple of the Physicians I work with have strongly suggested I consider medical school.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you,

AxisNP

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted6669]

several comments....
all of the programs less than 4 years in length which give advanced standing to pa/np folk are not worth attending due to credentialing issues(most are outside of this country).
community college is fine. lots of folks do it.
consider a D.O. program. they tend to favor older students(like us) with medical/life experience.
I have kids and know people in md/do programs with kids. it can be done.
every school is different in terms of schedule. if what you are really asking is "can I work part time?" the answer is probably yes, at least for the first 2 years then occassionally years 3 and 4. a friend of mine( a pa) worked 20 hr/week years 1 and 2 and per diem years 3 and 4 and graduated at the top of his med school class and went on to become chief resident in his EM residency.
do you want to go back for money, prestige, increased scope of practice, or increased medical knowledge? make sure you know what you will be getting out of this for giving up 7 productive years of your life. unless I get a scholarship I won't break even for over 20 years when compared to what I would have made as a pa during med school and residency. in addition to school debt, paying the mortgage, etc there would be over $800,000 of lost wages. on the mcat prep issue I can't offer an opinion. not quite there yet. still need a little chemistry. took physics with lab last year(without calc). it was a fun class. best of luck whatever you decide.

 

[lloydchristmas]

Why are you considering med school? Not happy with NP? Why? Just wondering, as I am embarking on NP instead of MD school for several BIG reasons. Could you possibly renegotiate your position with your collaborating doc, or work somewhere else where you could negotiate a sweet deal (ie percentage of all collected fees)?

 

[AxisNP]

Considering medical school to have more autonomy really.

I ended up as an NP instead of going to medical school because I was married then and put a spouse through graduate school. Plus at that time my children were small. Ok they are still small but not babies now.

So yes I am asking if a single parent can do this. I've had some physicians who say that it shouldn't be a big deal and others say differently. I can make pretty good money part time as an RN and/or and NP.

Ok I was told it would be 4 years of school. Explain to me the 7 years you mentioned. That is where the age thing comes in. I had read that on average medical students in this state were 45 years old. So it gave me some hope here.

I can get about half of medical school expenses paid for and not have to pay that back. That is also money that I can use to live off of or use to pay tuition.

As you can tell I am in the collecting information process right now.

AxisNP

 

[deleted6669]

7= 4 years of med school plus a minimum of 3 years as a resident at minimum wage.

 

[OneRadMan]

"I am considering Medical School. So I have a lot of questions. I hope some here can answer them.

1) How are the course usually laid out? For instance is it 8 hours a day? 12 hours one day then 4-6 other days? Is it semesters? etc."

Depends on the medical school. Where I attended, first year was pretty rough, 8am-5pm every day, with 5-6 hours of studying each night. Second year was 8am-2pm, some days 4pm, with 3-4 hours of studying each night. 3rd and 4th years totally depend on what clinical rotation you are on. For surgery, expect about 4am-7pm, 6 days a week. For radiology and psych, expect nothing more than a few hours in the morning. Most medical schools go by semesters. I have heard of a few on trimesters, but not sure which ones they are.

"2) I am 38 years old now. I need two physics courses as pre-requisites. So I am thinking like in 3 years (if I get accepted). Do you think this is too old?"

You should be able to complete 2 semesters of physics in one year. No, I don't think 38 is too old! But remember, you are looking at 1 year to finish physics, one year to get in, 4 yrs med school and 3-5 years residency. So you are looking at about 9-11 years until you can start paying off your $150,000 med school debt.

"3) Do any of you have jobs as well as children and how do/did you work medical school around this?"

I think it would have been impossible to have a job during 1 and 2nd year. Many schools/hospitals have externs that pay about $12-15/hr for 3rd and 4th year med students. It's a handy way to get good clinical experience on the side. Only expect to get in a few shift a month, two shifts/week max, since many students are externs and need to spread the wealth.

I don't have kids, but I have many friends who do. They ALL have a supportive spouse who stays home with the kids.

"4) I have heard from a couple PA's that there are medical schools that have are shorter (2 years) but are more intense and are designed for NPs. Does anyone know of these?"

There are a few 6 year programs that accept newly graduated high school students. The 6 years includes 2 years of intensive undergraduate study followed by 4 years of med school. There are only a couple programs left, most are being phased out. Plus, they are all work and no play. I would try to avoid this type of program.


"5) Do you think an MCAT prep course is a good idea? Do you recommend any?"

For you, yes. Sounds like you have been out of the loop for a while, so a refresher course on basic chemistry, organic chemistry, biology and physics would be very useful. Plus, you can learn what the format of the test is, number of questions, time allowed, and what the writing sample is about. There are two major MCAT test prep companies, Kaplan and Princeton Review. I took Kaplan, and it worked out very well for me. In fact, I ended up teaching there for a few years afterwards. A word of warning, these MCAT test prep courses are VERY expensive. We are talking $1200+ (that's how much it cost 5 years ago when I took it). If you have the money, do it. If not, try to find some old books or sample exams from someone who has taken the course before.

"6) I would prefer to take my physics courses at a community college but have been told many medical schools won't accept these, is this correct?"

No, that is not correct. Medical schools require the basic courses be completed at an accreditied college or university.

I would consider applying to both MD and DO schools. To get into an allopathic/MD school, you should shoot for >3.7 GPA and >29 MCAT. This is not written in stone, but the higher the better. DO schools tend to accept people with lower scores, but I'm not sure how much lower, since I attended an MD school.

One last piece of advice. If you are going to try for med school, you have to give it your all! Jump in with both feet and fight like mad. Once you get in, you are pretty much set.....

Good Luck!

 

[AxisNP]

That was great information.

I had a GPA of 3.8 in graduate school and I am a member of the Nursing Honors society. So I would think that this would be an asset.

I agree on the MCAT course since it has been a long time since taking many of the sciences. Though I do feel a little confident I had to take 2nd semester Chem prior to grad school. It had been nearly 14 years since I had taken the 1st chem course. But I still managed to pull off an A. I don't think I could take an exam but a refresher course would be enough.


My concern are the hours. I had a feeling it was long hours. I am a single mom. So it might not be feasible. I know as an RN/NP I could probably still get some kind of weekend or every other weekend job. But I was hoping the hours wouldn't go too far past when the girls are out of school. My youngest won't be even in school for another 3 years.


As I stated in another post I am still in the collecting information stage of this. I don't want to do it half-way. I agree with you on jumping in with both feet. But then I am a person that if I decide to do something I do it.

Can the DO do Psychiatry? I have read a tiny bit about this. I would have to go out of state for the DO. We don't have any schools here.

Again thanks for all the information.

AxisNP

 

[AxisNP]

The reasons for medical school are actually several. One is autonomy. In the state I live in the NP still has to have the MD on their license.

Some of it is money, but not completely. I really didn't research the financial end of being an NP all that well. It was after becoming an NP that I found out that NP's (as per the national average stats) tend to make less than I did as an RN only. The first offer I had was less than I was making as an RN. I was pretty shocked.

Then there was the suggestion from others. My supervising physician was also my preceptor my last semester of clinical for my NP. He states often that I should have gone to medical school. He even kept some of my papers for reference. He is also planning on leaving the practice. So when he does I will have to look for another MD as a supervising physician. As well as pay money to the medical board for the transfer. This kind of goes back to autonomy. I do have another physician who has already asked me to work with him. So it's not like I haven't networked and such. I am not worried about not having a job, at least not yet.

I still work at the hospital for extra income. I brought the subject up to some of the RN's I work with and again was given a lot of support.

The last reason is most likely the real reason. I have a tendency to always look to the next school project as soon as I finish another. I think the longest I have been out of school was maybe 7 years ( was busy putting a spouse through grad school and having kids). My bachelors is in Psychology, then nursing school, then NP for graduate school.

The main down side is that I am a single mom. So it might not work. I am just not certain yet. Which is why I am asking a lot of questions.

Why did you decide on NP rather than medical school?

AxisNP

 

[lloydchristmas]

Originally posted by AxisNP
The reasons for medical school are actually several. One is autonomy. In the state I live in the NP still has to have the MD on their license.

Some of it is money, but not completely. I really didn't research the financial end of being an NP all that well. It was after becoming an NP that I found out that NP's (as per the national average stats) tend to make less than I did as an RN only. The first offer I had was less than I was making as an RN. I was pretty shocked.

Then there was the suggestion from others. My supervising physician was also my preceptor my last semester of clinical for my NP. He states often that I should have gone to medical school. He even kept some of my papers for reference. He is also planning on leaving the practice. So when he does I will have to look for another MD as a supervising physician. As well as pay money to the medical board for the transfer. This kind of goes back to autonomy. I do have another physician who has already asked me to work with him. So it's not like I haven't networked and such. I am not worried about not having a job, at least not yet.

I still work at the hospital for extra income. I brought the subject up to some of the RN's I work with and again was given a lot of support.

The last reason is most likely the real reason. I have a tendency to always look to the next school project as soon as I finish another. I think the longest I have been out of school was maybe 7 years ( was busy putting a spouse through grad school and having kids). My bachelors is in Psychology, then nursing school, then NP for graduate school.

The main down side is that I am a single mom. So it might not work. I am just not certain yet. Which is why I am asking a lot of questions.

Why did you decide on NP rather than medical school?

AxisNP

I am choosing the NP route because there are many things I don't like about being a doctor. When I reference my reasons, I'm speaking about my future position, not NPs in general.

1. I don't like to be on call at all. I want to be off when I'm off. Not many docs get to do that. Granted, derm, opth, and some ER docs get to be off when they're off, but derm and opth are tough to get into and ER docs pay outrageous malpractice.

2. Malpractice... $30K/year??? With numbers like those going up, and medicare/medicaid causing reimbursement to go down, it's not looking good for medicine in the future. This is inversely proportional to the future of PA/NPs, because this will force the acceptance of PA/NPs to help doctors increase their productivity, and also take care of all the primary care that will be left without care when all the docs get away from it because they'll starve trying to pay back $250K on a salary that's barely six figures. I personally know several primary care docs that said if they had to pay back the tuition rates that private schools are at now, they'd have to do something else.

3. I was about 6 months from starting med school about 4 years ago, and I went backwards 2 years in undergrad to get a BSN so I could be a NP after having a long talk about all this with a friend of mine who's been a doc for about 15 years. He offered me a job with him in his free standing clinic (work comp, weight loss, and cash only urgent care) for 50% of collected charges. He has a PA now, but will replace him with me when I graduate. Right now, the PA sees about 150 patients/week. The average pays $70. That's over $250K/yr if the numbers don't fluctuate much. I'm taking risk doing this, but risk is directly proportional to success. And, the doc doesn't have to invest benefits in me (at that pay, I'll buy my own).

4. Time away from career is incredibly important to me. This goes along with the no-call comment, but the primary care docs here work 80+ hours/week (one works over 100 hours every week!). I don't like work that much. I enjoy too many other things. This played a big factor in it.

There are several other reasons, but my wife is yelling at me to come to bed. So, I must go now. Good luck, and check out oldpremeds.com for more help from other non-traditionals.

 

[tedsadoc2002]

if you haven't looked yet, browse the thread "transition . . ."

Yes, DO's are psychiatrists (a few of my classmates went on to do that) You can work in the summers between years (but that depends on the school, I only had the summer bet. first and second year, and lighter rotations in my thrid year, but the sale of my house helped me out too) Someone in the class before me continued to work in L&D during first and second year and she did just fine.

Be prepared to budget tightly and live on loans (it can be done, I did it).

Age, not a problem (I started around the time frame that you are talking about).

Do you have any family members, church or other friends that could help out with the kids? I know of women that went through med school as parents and single parents and made it.

As mentioned before, the length of your school day is dependent on the program. I was in school almost an entire day my first year (0800-1700) but second year was awesome (0800-1300, most days). My niece on the other hand never had to be in class later than noon during both basic science years and she has the summers bet. her first and second and second and third years off.

Best of luck with your choices. Just study and weigh out your options carefully.

ted, D.O.
Emergency Medicine, PGY-1
somewhere in the city

 

[AxisNP]

tedsadoc,

Thanks for the information. Is DO school the same time frame? 4 years plus 3?

Just curious.

I will look where you mentioned.

Again thanks,

AxisNP

 

[Castro Viejo]

Originally posted by AxisNP
Thanks for the information. Is DO school the same time frame? 4 years plus 3?

The length of osteopathic (DO) training and MD training are essentially the same with four years of "undergraduate" medical education and 3-7 years of postgraduate training (residency). The thing that might lengthen the DO route of becoming a doctor is a thing called the "osteopathic internship," which only five states in the US currently require for the purposes of licensure.

"Internship" is an outdated term that medicine still uses to describe the first-year of residency training. For example in one-month I'll be starting my residency in surgery (a five-year residency), but that first-year will be considered by surgical internship.

All DOs have the option of doing an osteopathic internship. An osteopathic internship is one-year in length and requires rotations through different services, some lasting only a month, others lasting several months. As mentioned before, only five states still require an osteopathic internship for DO licensure. If memory serves, they are Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Louisianna, Michigan, and Ohio. I'm sure the DOs here can tell you exactly which five, but I believe those are the five.

Even as a DO who is not seeking licensure in one of those five states, you may want to do an osteopathic internship for several reasons. The first being that without an osteopathic internship you can never be a professor or member of the faculty of an osteopathic medical college. The second is without an osteopathic internship, I don't believe you can be a member of the American Osteopathic Association (AOA). This may not seem important, but it may be in the future.

So because of the osteopathic internship, a DO's length of training can potentially be 4 years of osteopathic medical school plus 1 year of osteopathic internship plus 3-7 years of residency training.

Good luck in your pursuits.

 

[group_theory]

For the record

the 5 states are Pennsylvania, Michigan, West Virginia, Oklahoma, and Florida

Some of those states will allow you to have a training license while others will not.

There are some AOA residency where the 1st year of the residency is considered the AOA internship (these are called fast-tracked).

UCONN has an osteopathic internship where it is also accredited by the ACGME/ABIM so you only have to do 2 years of ACGME internal medicine residency afterwards.

Then there is a process where you can get your ACGME 1st year internship accepted as an AOA-equivalent internship. There are rules and requirements to do and I don't know how easily the waiver is granted.

Anyway, these are things to consider when you're deciding between DO and MD.


Sincerely,

your friendly neighborhood osteopathic basher

 

[AxisNP]

Thank you for the information. I had not heard of DO until about a year ago. And that was because I was doing a web search on medical schools and ran across the AOA website.

I think my real dilemma is not the length of time of medical school but the invested time. Going 7 years and barely being around for my children doesn't sound like a good idea. I'm saying that because it sounds like between work and school there won't be any other time left.

I think I am still going to get prepared. The concept is, who knows what will come available in the next 3 years. So just in case I get a great idea, win the lottery, find a new spouse, or something else ( I actually have the something else in mind) I will be ready to go and not sitting around wishing I had taken the courses I need.

I am very glad that taking the physics at a community college will be ok. I know when I looked at Bowman Gray Medical School they stated they would not accept community college courses. But I am hoping on the total package and not just where I took the courses.

Any suggestions would be wonderful, ideas, etc. Like I said I think the main thing holding me back is not wanting to place my kids on hold. It doesn't work well with kids. And I LOVE being with my kids. I know that sounds odd these days, or maybe I am just cynical. LOL

AxisNP

 

[Castro Viejo]

Originally posted by AxisNP
I am very glad that taking the physics at a community college will be ok. I know when I looked at Bowman Gray Medical School they stated they would not accept community college courses. But I am hoping on the total package and not just where I took the courses.

While it is a perfectly acceptable alternative to take a component of your premed courses at a community college, I would definitely try to limit this. Admissions Committees at most of the MD medical schools somewhat frown upon applicants who took premed courses at community colleges for one very simple, though possibly unfounded, reason: community college courses are less rigorous than a "senior" 4-year college.

Having been an med school admissions officer in the past, I can tell you that applicants who took a course in a community college and got an A against a background of Bs and Cs in other premed courses at a senior college were not favored.

Why do you particularly need to take the physics course at your local community college? If at all possible, I would try to take the course at the local senior-level college.

Good luck.

 

[AxisNP]

I only have to take physics. And it would be easier, due to expense and local, to take it at the community college. All my other sciences are at Universities. And I graduated with honors from graduate school. So hopefully two courses at a community college won't be a problem.

AxisNP

 

[DocWagner]

Go for it...

I have met several PA's that have transitioned into medical school, and one of my attendings used to be a Nurse Practitioner. And from the spirit of your writing, it sounds much more deep than simply money and independent practice that motivates you toward medical school. Likely it is a desire for learning...and an intense learning experience.
As a former professional (a PT), I can tell you that getting into a mode of studying takes a while, usually giving the younger med students an advantage (those recently out of full course loads in college), but you will do well your clinical years. It was rough, but the most rewarding and challenging thing I have ever done in my life!!
As for family, well, the top student in my medical school was a mother of 2! At least a 3rd of the med students were married.
As for residency, well, your schedule depends on your choice for residency...as an EM resident, moonlighting is easily available (though more difficult than in the past) and certainly supplements your income in the 2nd or 3rd year (adds 10k-30k to your salary which is already in the mid 40's). Primary care residents generally get paid a bonus (depending upon geographic location) of up to 10k and most residencies at the very least offer free grub while in the hospital...being a resident if rough, but I can imagine NO other way to learn.
Regarding EM docs and malpractice, well, it is usually included in your compensation package and the salary plus malpractice coverage is always better than 200k/yearly...starting. Very nice indeed.
And to answer a previous posters question regarding liability...a recent article in American Medical News quoted several FP docs shying away from PA's etc because of liability worries (not a nationwide trend, but an undercurrent of decent). Certainly not all docs will wish to carry the liability load of PA's and NP's for ever, and thus their malpractice rates will climb just like us in medicine. It is inevitable.

As for fun...let me tell you, I worked with several several FP's in St.Louis (as a 3rd year med student) that had 4 day a week schedules and made plenty of money...and as an EM doc, the 13-15 day/month schedules are frequently offered.
You know what you want to do...take a deep breath and dive into it!

 

[AxisNP]

Thanks for you information.

I have been told that a Psychiatric residency is the easiest. I don't know if that is true or not. I would go into that. Or at least at this point I think that I would.

My plan right now is to get the pre-requisites in line. Then go from there. Mostly I don't want 3 years to go by and an opportunity to show itself and for me to smack my head wishing I had done this already. I think I have done that enough.

Again thanks,

AxisNP

 

[Castro Viejo]

Psychiatry? The easiest? I'm assuming you're talking about workload and hours. I suppose. It's easy to land a good psychiatry residency coming from a US medical school and life is generally good for psychiatrists, but don't pick an area of specialization just based on that.

Dermatology and Radiology also offer a great lifestyle, but getting into either of these is quite difficult.

 

[Noeljan]

Hey there
I think you should go for it, if that is what is in your heart. I just graduated with my BSN(about a month ago) and I am applying this year to medical school. I think you can do it
PS Are you a member of Sigma Theta Tau? I saw that you said nursing honor society so I was wondering because I am a member Good luck.

 

[AxisNP]

******: No I wasn't choosing Psychiatry based on an easy residency. I have worked in Psychiatry for nearly 17 years. Also I am a Psychiatric NP. So I would be surprised if that wasn't the area I ended up in. I really don't know for sure if that is true about it being an "easy residency". It's just something I had heard. I could be wrong and had heard wrong. And if it is easy it might also be the worst paying as well.

Noeljan: Thanks! Yes I am a member of Sigma Theta Tau. Nice to meet a fellow member. Well like I said, or at least think I said, my plan right now is to go ahead and get the prerequisites, take the mcat, etc. That way at least I am ready. Then at least in a couple to three years I can't lament I am not ready. I still at least have to get the physics out of the way.

AxisNP