Thinking of Pursuing Derm

[EmmaNemma]

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I know that pursuing derm for any medical student can be somewhat of a trap. In that, you can end up unmatched with a strong application. Does anyone know what the outlook is for DO students who want to pursue this specialty? What percentage end up matching somewhere? How many osteopathic spots are there? Since the match is for PGY-2 positions, what do that unmatched do? Is there any point to applying to the Allopathic match? Thanks.

 

[muhali3]

Those that go unmatched either do a research fellowship or do a transitional/preliminary year and then apply again. I can't answer the rest of your questions.

 

[Kuba]

Let me preface this by saying how ridiculously premature this conversation is if your title is correct and you are still pre-med and/or starting this year. Hell, I would say its premature even for our 1st and 2nd years.

Anyway, the osteopathic derm match is a bit different than you prob think. In the allo world, you are correct that derm is a pgy-2 spot and people match their senior year. In osteop, some spots are pgy2, but you apply during pgy-1, and some are essentially fellowships after 3 years in IM or FM for which you either match straight out of med school or during that initial residency. Everyone I know that really wanted derm actually has gotten it so far. It's a ll about perceverance in the DO Derm world. Having said that, they have all beeen stellar applicants also, and it helps that Nova has by far the largest number of derm spots of the DO schools.

Oh, and to answer the unmatched now that you understand the process a little better - almost all that did not match straight into a "fellowship" out of med school go on to the a TRI at a program that has derm spots. Essentially a year long audition.

 

[countthestars]

Aren't some of these derm spots unfunded? Where essentially YOU have to pay the program to train you? If you look on the osteopathic opportunities page, the derm program in Mesa Arizona doesn't have salary listed for OGME2, 3, and 4. The Derm program Ft Lauderdale pays like 10k a year...uhhh talk about below minimum wage. The one in Palm beach pays 22k a year. Try living in Palm beach + paying back your loans on that salary!

 

[fergustsi]

while i agree the salaries are token and insulting, you can supplement your salary via moonlighting. i mean its derm, not exactly work hour heavy. just doing 2-3 shifts a month moonlighting and you should be able to live just fine.

 

[BodyMechanic]

As Kuba alluded, there are a few ways to get into DO Derm. The traditional route, which is the route most people pursue, is to do a Traditional Internship (TRI) and during the summer of your TRI year you apply and audition at programs.

There are currently two med/derm programs (Columbia in WPB and Summa Western Reserve in Ohio), one Fam med/derm in Far Rock Away, NY, and a couple of more sketchy programs like Broward/NSU and Wellington Regional.
And I say sketchy because they rarely take a person straight out of internship, they usually take an IM/FM resident at their own program.

Most Derm residencies that are traditional provide regular resident pay. A few give you peanuts.

As for Allo Derm; it's rare for a DO to get a spot. I know one girl at my school who got a spot a few years ago, and if you look at the match stats, that is a few people here and there only.

 

[heroes31]

As Kuba alluded, there are a few ways to get into DO Derm. The traditional route, which is the route most people pursue, is to do a Traditional Internship (TRI) and during the summer of your TRI year you apply and audition at programs.

There are currently two med/derm programs (Columbia in WPB and Summa Western Reserve in Ohio), one Fam med/derm in Far Rock Away, NY, and a couple of more sketchy programs like Broward/NSU and Wellington Regional.
And I say sketchy because they rarely take a person straight out of internship, they usually take an IM/FM resident at their own program.

Most Derm residencies that are traditional provide regular resident pay. A few give you peanuts.

As for Allo Derm; it's rare for a DO to get a spot. I know one girl at my school who got a spot a few years ago, and if you look at the match stats, that is a few people here and there only.

So if you are interested in Broward/NSU you first have to complete 3 years of IM and then do 3 years of Derm? Why is it that Derm residencies pay so little as compared to every other residency/fellowship?

 

[BodyMechanic]

So if you are interested in Broward/NSU you first have to complete 3 years of IM and then do 3 years of Derm? Why is it that Derm residencies pay so little as compared to every other residency/fellowship?

It doesn't have to be IM and Broward. You can do FM too. If any of the Derm residents would correct me if I'm wrong; All the "regular" Derm residencies (i.e. TRI -> Derm spot) that I know of pay regular salaries like all other residencies.

You have to understand that the government will only fund one residency per each person; now the government covers fellowships, etc., but Derm is not a fellowship. So these dual programs, or the programs that want you to complete a residency prior to doing Derm have to fund you directly via the hospital. Meaning the hospital can't pocket the cash for their CEOs and has to pay you to train in a specialty that doesn't bring in the money for the hospital. It's all about the money. That's why the Touro Derm program got shut down; the hospital used those newly emptied spots for a Pulm Fellowship, which brings in free labor for the hospital.

 

[donkeykong1]

are Transitional year internships subsidized like residencies?

 

[patel2]

it's interesting that FM leads into a derm fellowship.

I feel like the types of people who aim for FM versus Derm have extremely different mindsets...and that those who did the FM residency hoping to be one of the few who get into derm (and then don't match into it) will not be happy with their career choice

 

[Kuba]

it's interesting that FM leads into a derm fellowship.

I feel like the types of people who aim for FM versus Derm have extremely different mindsets...and that those who did the FM residency hoping to be one of the few who get into derm (and then don't match into it) will not be happy with their career choice

Why not? Do a weekend laser course, weekend botox, weekend restalin, etc and you do pure cosmetics! Much less work than 3 years of derm memorizing histopathology! Sweet deal if you ask me.

 

[EmmaNemma]

Let me preface this by saying how ridiculously premature this conversation is if your title is correct and you are still pre-med and/or starting this year. Hell, I would say its premature even for our 1st and 2nd years.

Anyway, the osteopathic derm match is a bit different than you prob think. In the allo world, you are correct that derm is a pgy-2 spot and people match their senior year. In osteop, some spots are pgy2, but you apply during pgy-1, and some are essentially fellowships after 3 years in IM or FM for which you either match straight out of med school or during that initial residency. Everyone I know that really wanted derm actually has gotten it so far. It's a ll about perceverance in the DO Derm world. Having said that, they have all beeen stellar applicants also, and it helps that Nova has by far the largest number of derm spots of the DO schools.

Oh, and to answer the unmatched now that you understand the process a little better - almost all that did not match straight into a "fellowship" out of med school go on to the a TRI at a program that has derm spots. Essentially a year long audition.

Out of curiousity, how many of your classmates matched derm. I am starting Nova this year. Thanks.

 

[Kuba]

Out of curiousity, how many of your classmates matched derm. I am starting Nova this year. Thanks.

This year 5 people wanted derm. 1 got one of the 3+3 spots and 4 chose to go TRI to try to get the 1+3 spots. That's my class, so we don't know yet how they end up. However, last year I know 2 girls got the 3+3 spots and 2 guys went to Largo (one of our clinical affiliates) that has a derm residency. They ended up matching to the traditional route spots during their TRI, but not at largo. One is in Texas and the other is in PA. Like I said, I haven't actually had a friend who wanted to pursue derm that hasn't gotten it but I think it's just he small sample size.

 

[EmmaNemma]

This year 5 people wanted derm. 1 got one of the 3+3 spots and 4 chose to go TRI to try to get the 1+3 spots. That's my class, so we don't know yet how they end up. However, last year I know 2 girls got the 3+3 spots and 2 guys went to Largo (one of our clinical affiliates) that has a derm residency. They ended up matching to the traditional route spots during their TRI, but not at largo. One is in Texas and the other is in PA. Like I said, I haven't actually had a friend who wanted to pursue derm that hasn't gotten it but I think it's just he small sample size.

Makes sense. Thanks.

 

[EmmaNemma]

This year 5 people wanted derm. 1 got one of the 3+3 spots and 4 chose to go TRI to try to get the 1+3 spots. That's my class, so we don't know yet how they end up. However, last year I know 2 girls got the 3+3 spots and 2 guys went to Largo (one of our clinical affiliates) that has a derm residency. They ended up matching to the traditional route spots during their TRI, but not at largo. One is in Texas and the other is in PA. Like I said, I haven't actually had a friend who wanted to pursue derm that hasn't gotten it but I think it's just he small sample size.

Kuba-

Did any of the 5 students apply to the allopathic match? If so, how did they do? I know they were unsucessful in matching. However, did any of them get interviewed? Thanks.

 

[GoSpursGo]

The Osteopathic forum is a forum for osteopathic medical students to discuss questions relevant to their current education. Pre-med students should ask their questions in the Pre-Medical Osteopathic, which is where I'm moving this thread.

 

[drctother]

I know that pursuing derm for any medical student can be somewhat of a trap. In that, you can end up unmatched with a strong application. Does anyone know what the outlook is for DO students who want to pursue this specialty? What percentage end up matching somewhere? How many osteopathic spots are there? Since the match is for PGY-2 positions, what do that unmatched do? Is there any point to applying to the Allopathic match? Thanks.

Enlighten me. What makes someone so keen to get into Derm besides money? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you want to study medicine for some reason other than solely money and lifestyle. I especially say this considering you are pre-med and I doubt very much you have had much exposure to derm

 

[MedicineMike]

Enlighten me. What makes someone so keen to get into Derm besides money? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you want to study medicine for some reason other than solely money and lifestyle. I especially say this considering you are pre-med and I doubt very much you have had much exposure to derm

I am pretty interested in derm and not for the money. Sure the lifestyle is great, but I have always had a strange fascination with skin diseases and mini procedures. Will this change once I start school?..probably. Gotta keep your options open...

 

[countthestars]

Enlighten me. What makes someone so keen to get into Derm besides money?

The money actually isn't as much as say what an orthopedic surgeon would make. I think Derm makes around 250 to 300k a year. Aside from the money, the ability to do many procedures, have a life outside of medicine, have no call, pretty much have no emergencies to have to deal with, the ability to open up your own practice with good hours, always having patients filling up your practice looking for a good dermatologist since the wait-list of many practices is crazy long and the ability to make a difference in people's quality of life and them being forever grateful that you cured their skin condition/rash/skin cancer is why derm is pretty competitive...

 

[countthestars]

it's interesting that FM leads into a derm fellowship.

I feel like the types of people who aim for FM versus Derm have extremely different mindsets...and that those who did the FM residency hoping to be one of the few who get into derm (and then don't match into it) will not be happy with their career choice

I would actually have to say that FM would actually be more willing to do derm procedures since you are taught some derm in FM residency.

 

[patel2]

.

 

[SeminoleVesicle]

My dermatologist is a DO...it's not impossible, but the odds certainly aren't as encouraging as MD.

 

[patel2]

My dermatologist is a DO...it's not impossible, but the odds certainly aren't as encouraging as MD.

I think there are pros/cons to getting into dermatology as an MD versus a DO. MDs can match 4th year, and so it's more of a straight guaranteed path, and as a DO, it is virtually impossible to match at an MD spot. But the odds of being competitive in derm are super low as an MD as well...some combination of 250+ boards, multiple pubs, honors on most rotations and AOA are typically things needed to be competitive...I mean, probably only ~5% of MD students could even consider derm as a potential specialty based on these sorts of barriers alone.

At least the DO world has more routes into the field- I.e. things like a fellowship from IM/FM, proving yourself intern year etc., but there are cons to that as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that boards/honors/AOA etc. are important, but not quite as important, to match DO derm, since you are completing an internship and/or entire residency before you are even eligible to apply. So it seems your skills/work ethic/charima/personality probably play an equally important role to securing a spot as numbers. On the other hand, the point that I was trying to drive home earlier is that someone who has their heart set on DO dermatology after completing intern year or after a FM/IM residency, is probably not going to be happy stuck in an AOA primary care specialty if they aren't able to succesfully match into dermatology after this...

 

[VeeTeeHokies]

I think there are pros/cons to getting into dermatology as an MD versus a DO. MDs can match 4th year, and so it's more of a straight guaranteed path, and as a DO, it is virtually impossible to match at an MD spot. But the odds of being competitive in derm are super low as an MD as well...some combination of 250+ boards, multiple pubs, honors on most rotations and AOA are typically things needed to be competitive...I mean, probably only ~5% of MD students could even consider derm as a potential specialty based on these sorts of barriers alone.

At least the DO world has more routes into the field- I.e. things like a fellowship from IM/FM, proving yourself intern year etc., but there are cons to that as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that boards/honors/AOA etc. are important, but not quite as important, to match DO derm, since you are completing an internship and/or entire residency before you are even eligible to apply. So it seems your skills/work ethic/charima/personality probably play an equally important role to securing a spot as numbers. On the other hand, the point that I was trying to drive home earlier is that someone who has their heart set on DO dermatology after completing intern year or after a FM/IM residency, is probably not going to be happy stuck in an AOA primary care specialty if they aren't able to succesfully match into dermatology after this...

I'm curious about a lot of the things you mention here as well. I know that publications tend to be very important, especially with the more competitive residencies, for instance I've heard somewhere along the line that the average Radiation Oncology match has 9 publications. Because allopathic schools seem to have many more research opportunities than their osteopathic counterparts (not to say that there aren't research opportunities at DO schools), it stands to reason that this is one of the barriers that DO students face when entering the allo match for competitive specialties. To what extent is research looked for in those entering the AOA match for competitive specialties such as derm?

Also we mustn't forget that when going the FM/IM route into a Derm fellowship (or any other fellowship for that matter), if one doesn't match they can continue to apply every year until they get it. Perseverance pays off, as my Dad's cardiologist is a DO and he said that he had to apply twice before he got his fellowship.

 

[patel2]

From the Western U Derm Website (lol at the quality of the site...must have been made in the 90s).
http://www.pacificdermresidency.com/page4.html

Desired Qualifications for Consideration:

1. Top 15% of Medical School Class
2. GPA > 85% or 3.5
3. Board Scores > 85%
4. Dermatology related research and/or publications
5. Special talents: leadership, speaking, writing, art, music, etc...
6. Letters of Recommendations from rotations with Osteopathic Dermatologists
7. Attendance at AOCD meetings
8. Student Membership in AOCD