Thinking of quitting residency

Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by PharmyOfNone, 10.29.14.

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  1. PharmyOfNone

    PharmyOfNone

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    I found this website after I googled "I want to quit my residency," and found a lot of medical residency threads.

    My pharmacy residency isn't working out. I'm easily putting in 70+ hours a week for a third of a pharmacist's wage, and I'm still not getting everything done that they expect. The other residents are in pretty similar boats, but they don't have pets, let alone spouses, so they don't have much to focus on but work.

    I'm genuinely considering quitting. The residency focuses on generating work credit, and not on learning, so effectively I'm an underpaid and overworked new pharmacist. My biggest fear is making it to the end and finding out I didn't "pass."

    If I had known it was going to be this crappy, I would have just gone straight to Publix instead.
     
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  3. YourMD

    YourMD 5+ Year Member

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    If you want to work in a hospital setting you will have to complete that residency. If you can find happiness working retail go ahead and quit.
     
  4. Sparda29

    Sparda29 En Taro Adun Gold Donor 7+ Year Member

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    What this guy said is bull****. You don't need a residency to work in a hospital.
     
  5. zelman

    zelman 7+ Year Member

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    I think this might be a conversation to have with your residency director.
     
  6. PharmyOfNone

    PharmyOfNone

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    Yeah, pretty sure I won't need a residency to staff anywhere. And I have no interest in competing in a "who's the better (not a) doctor?" competition, so clinical guru is out for me.

    Retail pros: when you leave work, you leave work. When you stay late (as a staffer), you bill for that time. And that time is pretty freaking pricy.
    Retail cons: Little time for clinical intervention or real counseling. Have to do it when you can.

    Residency pros: a wall document that says I completed a PGY-1
    Residency cons: the stuff in my first post

    Hmm...
     
  7. KidPharmD

    KidPharmD Pediatric Pharmacist 2+ Year Member

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    Talk to your RPD. I have never heard of a resident making it to the end and not "passing." How are your evals going? Do they use Resitrak? Maybe you need better time management (I know I did) to deal with residency.

    Also, I did a year of retail (CVS) and I did NOT leave work at work. I flinched everytime my phone rang on my day off due to so many calls from manager or supervisor.

    Second, I know that many (not all) hospitals are moving to requiring PGY1s for staffing. Also, you will probably have to hide/ignore your time in residency because dropping out might look worse than not doing it in the first place.

    Why did you choose to do a residency?

    P.S. I have a wife and kid, have to keep track of my work hours so we don't violate the rules, and still completed PGY1, so I think I understand some of where you are at.
     
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  8. YourMD

    YourMD 5+ Year Member

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    As a hospital employee that interacts with pharmacists daily I can assure you most of our staff is residency trained. That being said I am sure you'll be able to find a few Rph's that are not. Keep in mind they are the exception not the rule.

    Sparda! You're not adding anything of value with your inflammatory remarks. If your going to disagree with a comment made, at least offer a bit of advise to the OP. You seem like an angry individual. Take a chill pill.

    (edit) Here's a little analogy. You don't NEED a bachelors degree or volunteer hours to matriculate into medical school. But good luck being successful without those accolades.
     
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  9. PharmyOfNone

    PharmyOfNone

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    We use Resi-Trak, and I seem to be targeted for time management despite having similar issues as my co-residents. So far, the reviews have been antagonistic/negative, with more than a few "Needs Improvement" scores.
     
  10. WVUPharm2007

    WVUPharm2007 "Bubs Depot!" 10+ Year Member

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    I literally know about two dozen people that work in a hospital without a residency who graduated over the last 5 years or so.
     
  11. PharmyOfNone

    PharmyOfNone

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    Yeah, I recognize that a residency is desirable if you want to work in a hospital, but I definitely don't think it's anywhere near necessary yet.
     
  12. Dred Pirate

    Dred Pirate 2+ Year Member

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    this surprises me - I do not have a residency (graduated 10 years ago) but anyone we have hired in teh past 3 years either has a residency or 10+ years experience. I think a lot of residency is BS, we work our residents hard, but not overly hard in my opinion.


    To the OP if your intent was to work at Publix, I would have never gone down the residency path, but I have to admit, if there is any competition between you and someone else for a job, (and I say this as a hiring supervisor) good luck explaining why you quit your residency short of anything but a family/financial emergency.
     
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  13. fauxden

    fauxden 5+ Year Member

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    I know a guy who dropped out of a VA residency because he hated it. Went to retail.
     
  14. Digsbe

    Digsbe 5+ Year Member

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    I know a lot of the staffing positions in my area are becoming "hybrid" meaning staff pharmacists have clinical days where they round or do the work of clinical pharmacists. Most require PGY1's now or at least 5 years of hospital experience. A PGY1 is appearing to become the standard for staffing in a hospital.
     
  15. mustang sally

    mustang sally 7+ Year Member

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    I didn't do a residency so I probably don't know what I'm talking about but…it's just a year. Even if it totally sucks, after a year you're done and you'll likely have more opportunities because of having completed one. Unless you know you 100% want to do retail, I would just stick it out.
     
  16. YourMD

    YourMD 5+ Year Member

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    Even though I highly doubt your assertion, I'll go a step further and say that you can not validate your statement with anecdote. Common logic would tell you that hospitals are more inclined to hire those who have hospital training through completion of a residency, than they are to hire a PharmD who will likely need extensive training to perform at the same level of his/her colleagues.

    We post on these forums the get the best advice possible, not to hear 1 in a million stories of the few people who have managed to slip through the cracks. Hospitals PREFER residency trained Pharmacists. Period!
     
  17. zelman

    zelman 7+ Year Member

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    If you aren't in CA, you don't get paid for extra unscheduled time worked.
     
  18. WVUPharm2007

    WVUPharm2007 "Bubs Depot!" 10+ Year Member

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    Ok, who exactly are you? Some pre-med that has no idea what they are talking about?

    *I* went straight into hospital pharmacy without a residency for Christ's sake. While I was there, we hired two other new grads. I had an intern 2 years ago that works up in Lehigh Valley right now. Straight out of school. And where most of my examples come from, I graduated with a whole bunch of kids that went straight into hospital...more than a dozen. Granted, that as a few years ago. But more recently, a girl I know that went to a school in Nashville a few months ago is working at a childrens' hospital straight out of school.

    Just look at any school that keeps statistics of where their graduates work. They will list residency and hospital pharmacy as separate entities. Every school will have at 5-10 or so people going into hospital practice. Just go look.

    If you want to work somewhere like California or Austin, TX, Im sure they are so selective that you need a residency. But BFE Kansas or somewhere in the middle of Pennsyltucky...you'll be able to get a job without a residency. I've seen repeatedly.
     
    Last edited: 10.29.14
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  19. WVUPharm2007

    WVUPharm2007 "Bubs Depot!" 10+ Year Member

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    Where do you practice? My examples are mostly in rural areas.

    If we are just talking *just* the last 3 years, I can honestly say I know of 4 people. Two in PA, one in WV, one in Tennessee. 3 rural, one urban.
     
  20. njac

    njac Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    Admittedly, as a preceptor I am not afraid of the "needs improvement" at the beginning of the year.

    That's why you're here! To improve!

    If you exceeded expectations in August, why bother!
     
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  21. Dred Pirate

    Dred Pirate 2+ Year Member

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    I think you hit it on the head by saying rural areas, we are in a mid major metro area in the southeast (desirable place to live people tell me, but that is a different conversation). I cut my teeth in a VERY rural hospital in the midwest, and basically that is my advice to people, if you want city life right out of school, residency is almost a requirement, if you can go out and live an adventure, you can avoid it.
     
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  22. Dred Pirate

    Dred Pirate 2+ Year Member

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    exactly, if you don't get a "needs improvement" your preceptors are blowing smoke up your a$$. We all need improvement right out of school. If you don't think you do, you are way to full of yourself (which I love to get the students/residents that think that, then put them in a code situation and bail them out.
     
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  23. PharmyOfNone

    PharmyOfNone

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    I definitely didn't see myself on the retail pathway until I saw how miserable the pharmacists are at my facility. It's a toxic work environment, where they've created too much work for most of the RPhs. Extensive notes, for example. EXTENSIVE.

    What was his chief complaint?

    I totally agree with this sentiment, but do you drive your resident into the ground?

    My beef right now is that we aren't really given much in the way of learning experiences. We crank out numbers and that's about it.
     
  24. Transformer

    Transformer 7+ Year Member

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    I am a current first year resident and when I graduated from pharmacy school, I was offered a hospital staff pharmacist position in an extremely saturated market. So, WVU is right, there are graduates who transition to hospital staff pharmacist positions right out of school. How likely this happens depends on the job market, the hiring pharmacy supervisor/director, and the graduate's network and intern experiences.

    After a year of staffing, I decided to complete a residency, because I wanted to pursue a specialty that requires me to have residency training/experience. And if that doesn't work out this year, I have the reassurance that if I did move to a region where residency is highly desired, I have the ability to compete for a staff/clinical/hybrid position.

    To OP, I don't know your program or your exact situation, so I can't recommend what you should or should not do. But I can relate to the feeling of wanting to quit, because some days I really really need to get away or take a break. On the positive side, I feel I have learned more in the past 4 months of residency than I did in one year working as a hospital staff pharmacist. :)



     
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  25. PharmyOfNone

    PharmyOfNone

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    I feel like I haven't learned. I'm a more efficient note writer than I was at the beginning, but otherwise my clinical knowledge hasn't really expanded. I try to study on my own time, but there have been several 14 hour days recently. Add in family involvement, and there's not much time for anything else.

    Residents are now being threatened with further negative evals if we're late on any documentation. More salt in the wound.
     
  26. BeLikeBueller

    BeLikeBueller Doctor of Comic Relief 2+ Year Member

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    If you ever want to work in a hospital (not even clinical - just staff) in a desirable/metropolitan location, you probably need to suck it up and finish your residency. Every hospital I've been at on rotation this year, same story - new staff position opens up, half of the candidates are residency trained, the other half go straight into the recycle bin.

    Sorry the job market sucks so bad! Best of luck to you though!
     
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  27. awval999

    awval999 New Member 10+ Year Member

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    It's not that you can't get a hospital job without residency. It will just be harder without one.
     
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  28. YourMD

    YourMD 5+ Year Member

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    ^^^Agreed! Trying to get WVUPharm2007 to understand this is like pulling teeth. But I digress. To OP, if you desire to work in a hospital setting the best you can do is complete your residency. If not, You MAY have an uphill battle trying to gain hospital employment. Goodluck!

     
  29. oldstock

    oldstock Banned Banned

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    why zelman is banned ?? did he say something bad ??
     
  30. KARM12

    KARM12 Super Member 10+ Year Member

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    Dude, you're crying about a negative eval? Do you know who reads these other than your program director/preceptors? NO ONE!

    Needs improvement is no big deal. Isn't that the point of doing a residency, to improve your skills? I've been in my job for while and there are areas I need improvement that would make me more efficient. People need to grow a thicker skin. Everyone is used to hearing how wonderful and special they are...the one time someone tells you to work on something you freak out. Documentation should be compelted in a timely manner...it isn't useful otherwise.

    What did you think a residency was?
     
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  31. OmiPharmD

    OmiPharmD Pharmacist 2+ Year Member

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    This. We prefer residency trained pharmacists in the hospital now. It's really changed the past couple years. It isn't impossible but it is getting more difficult.

    The 'needs improvement' on your evaluation isn't terrible. Keep working on it! In our program we have only not passed one resident and he was dismissed in the middle of the residency after ongoing issues. What is your institution's track record?

    Good luck with whatever path you choose.
     
  32. gwarm01

    gwarm01 7+ Year Member

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    I was hired directly out of school without a residency in a major metropolitan area. Including myself we hired four pharmacists that year. Two were residency trained and two were not. Funnily enough, the general consensus is that us lowly non-residency trained pharmacists were generally more capable and hit the ground running much more easily than the other two. I think management was shocked because they really expected to see super-star level performance out of one of them.

    That said, you are definitely handicapping yourself by quitting the residency. The winds of change have been blowing for a long time, and with each passing year it will be more and more difficult to get your foot in the door without one. I was honestly surprised to be offered a position myself, and that was nearly two years ago. I've found myself considering doing a residency even now. I suppose I'm afraid it will close doors in the future. I could imagine a scenario where the hospital mandates PGY1 and gets rid of everyone else.
     
  33. BenJammin

    BenJammin No Apologies 5+ Year Member

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    There is a difference between hating residency because you're disliking clinical and hospital work and hating residency because the other pharmacists are jerks to you. If it was the former I would tell you to quit tonight and not look back but it seems to be more of the latter. Just deal with it for the next few months.
     
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  34. Hope1974

    Hope1974 5+ Year Member

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    Find a job and then quit. You don't need a residency to work in hospital. It's hard to land on the east coast but not impossible. In other areas it's easier. Also, I know of 3 residents that quit- one just quit where I work. Her whole reasoning for doing a residency like others is because they believe it will help them get a job in a hospital. Why do all that work for less pay? It's not like medical residencies where your pay goes up after u finish.
     
  35. OldPhotography

    OldPhotography 2+ Year Member

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    I work for Publix right now as a pharmacy tech and I just got accepted to pharmacy school. I am glad that I saw your post because after reading so many things about clinical pharmacy, I was wondering if the grass would be greener on the other side. Don't get me wrong - I love Publix and I could see myself working as a pharmacist there especially since I've been with Publix since I was 14 (I'm 20 now) but I would love the opportunity to be involved in a patient's therapy moreso than filling it and saying "take it with this, don't do this... etc."
     
  36. zelman

    zelman 7+ Year Member

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    I wasn't. Just changed my avatar.
     
  37. oldstock

    oldstock Banned Banned

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    good to hear :)
     
  38. FarmD711

    FarmD711 2+ Year Member

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    lol......not so much.
     
  39. Sparda29

    Sparda29 En Taro Adun Gold Donor 7+ Year Member

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    I work in a hospital. I never did a residency. My work included clinical work that didn't require additional training.

    The only hospital I know of in NYC that requires residency of staff pharmacists is Montefiore, and that only applies to morning pharmacists since they are expected to round and follow patients for half the day before coming down for dispensing duties.

    My clinical work in the hospital didn't require rounding but I was still able to follow patients. I was pretty much the vancomycin and renal dosing guy. Any orders regarding them had to be reviewed by me.
     
    Last edited: 10.29.14
  40. BidingMyTime

    BidingMyTime Lost Shaker Of Salt 10+ Year Member

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    Reality is, there are not enough resident trained pharmacists to staff hospitals. Whether or not hospitals might prefer resident trained pharmacists is a moot point, because even when they advertise residency required......if they don't get any residency trained applicants (or only questionable residency trained applicants), then they are still going to hire a pharmacist.

    Now prestigious, teaching hospitals in big cities, they can get by with only hiring residency trained pharmacists, due to the sheer number of applicants they get. Other hospitals, not so much so. Sure, being residency trained is a plus on your resume, but not being residency trained won't keep you from working in a hospital (as long as you aren't picky about the hospital you work at.)
     
  41. WVUPharm2007

    WVUPharm2007 "Bubs Depot!" 10+ Year Member

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    Hey, fella, I never said it was easier, I said that it happens all the time. And that I personally know of several examples. Like, I don't know...me. And I also said that its typically more likely to happen in rural areas. You are putting words in my mouth. Learn to read.
     
  42. kaidou1412

    kaidou1412 2+ Year Member

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    Military pharmacy residency is not a bad option. I've seen more than half dozen of them.
     
  43. zelman

    zelman 7+ Year Member

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    a half dozen you say? Should be enough for every new grad, then. Problem solved.
     
  44. KidPharmD

    KidPharmD Pediatric Pharmacist 2+ Year Member

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    Since everyone is positing their anecdotes, I will express mine.

    I live in major metropolitan city with ~12 hospitals in 5 systems. I had occasion to call all of these directors yesterday (for something completely unrelated) and also ask the last time they hired a non-residency trained new grad for a full time position. The answer - 6 years ago. Every full time staff pharmacist in our city in the last 5 years was either PGY1 trained or had previous experience. BTW that was the time when the biggest system openly added PGY1 or experience to the required qualifications of job postings.
     
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  45. kaidou1412

    kaidou1412 2+ Year Member

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    um...what?
     
  46. Sparda29

    Sparda29 En Taro Adun Gold Donor 7+ Year Member

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    Only reason to consider doing a residency is to get a clinical coordinator position.

    If these hospitals are requiring PGY1 for their staff positions, what the **** are they requiring for their clinical coordinator spots, PGY2? Is it that you can no longer jump straight to clinical coordinator after residency?

    Man, I was born 25 years too early. One of the directors I've worked with in the past was hired at a major NYC hospital as a director of pharmacy, straight out of pharmacy school back in the BS of Pharmacy days. He did shadow the DOP his entire time as an intern though.
     
  47. zelman

    zelman 7+ Year Member

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    I think you mean 25 years too late.

    And staff positions in Boston all require years of experience or PGY-1 (or 2 for specialty hospitals like dana farber). There is no such thing as an entry level position here.
     
  48. KidPharmD

    KidPharmD Pediatric Pharmacist 2+ Year Member

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    I think that you will find that pharmacy changes (as do almost all professions) and that you may quickly find yourself the exception rather than the rule. I wonder what would happen if you asked DOP's if they would want a residency trained pharmacist if they had a staff position open tomorrow. They might even accept a non-PGY1 pharmacist, but maybe not in favor of one with a residency.
     
  49. 297point1

    297point1 1,000+ Post Club 7+ Year Member

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    I've seen it happen in a PGY-2. The bad news was delivered at the end of May.
    I never learned the particular details that led to the decision to withhold the certificate of completion (it seemed like an ongoing series of little things instead of one or two major screw-ups), but the whole thing wasn't pleasant.
     
  50. HouTX

    HouTX 2+ Year Member

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    sounds like you have to try to really fail residency (or naplex) or they will end up passing
     
  51. Doc Hawaii

    Doc Hawaii 7+ Year Member

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    I know of a major hospital in Southern California that fired a PGY-1 resident prior to graduation, and 2) delayed graduation for another (both PGY-1s). Depends on management and the resident. This facility has high standards. Seems like there are 1+ PGY-1 residents that nearly fail one or more rotation in the same system. However, what I heard is that the residents are given numerous opportunities to improve.

    Anyways....anecdote relayed...

    I know of numerous full-time pharmacists (including classmates) that work inpatient all over California without a PGY-1. Some places require residency or experience, while others it seems like luck-right place/right time/right personality. You will never know until trying.
     

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