thinking of waving the white flag

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I think you've got a lot of good advice here, particularly from the more experienced forum members incl. njbmd (always great advice!), pandabear whose icy-cold-bucket-of-water-over-the-head approach is always refreshing, and many moms at different stages of med school.

My one real disagreement is with the people who think you can magically raise your MCAT above a 30, or even to a 35, and solve all your problems. Sure, if one could get a 45, you might get some interviews, but it's not going to happen. I have taught many excellent students, but only a few who managed a 35 or above. This is simply not a realistic goal, IMHO.

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My one real disagreement is with the people who think you can magically raise your MCAT above a 30, or even to a 35, and solve all your problems. Sure, if one could get a 45, you might get some interviews, but tit's not going to happen. I have taught many excellent students, but only a few who managed a 35 or above. This is simply not a realistic goal, IMHO.
Even if she did get a 45 on the MCAT, that would do nothing to make up for her poor performance in the SMP, which is the actual problem here. I think that many applicants greatly overestimate how much a high MCAT will really help them if they have an asteroid-sized crater (not just a hole) in their academic record like this OP does. Pre-allo and Re-apps are full of these high-MCAT, low-GPA, no interview, no acceptance threads asking for the loophole out. The answer is that there *is* no loophole out--the only thing that can make up for a poor GPA is a stellar post bac or SMP. It would take on the order of *years* worth of A-level coursework to repair this kind of GPA damage, and even then, there is still no guarantee that one of the Chicago schools would be willing to give her a chance at the end. No, it's not impossible, but it would require practically superhuman effort.
 
Q, I agree with you completely - US med schools are looking for applicants who seem very, very likely to successfully complete their curriculum in 4 yrs or at worst 5, and to pass boards on first attempt.

When there are so many great applicants out there, it would be hard to convince them to take a chance on someone with a long history of only OK academic performance, with a single great test score.
 
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Pre-allo and Re-apps are full of these high-MCAT, low-GPA, no interview, no acceptance threads asking for the loophole out. No, it's not impossible, but it would require practically superhuman effort.

Q- I agree with you, but would only add that there are many Pre-Osteo students with lower gpa's and high MCAT scores that do get interviews/acceptances. Generally there is some forgiveness for gpa at DO schools. Not that I'm trying to imply it is a sure thing because it really isn't, EVER, a sure thing (for ANYone)!!

The other part is that not that many people really manage to raise their MCAT score by a significant amount with re-takes (but you would know more about that than I do).
 
How do you think the kids will feel about seeing their mom go from being at home and always there for them to totally unavailable? Is that really what's best for them?
...
I realized I wanted to have a family and had to pay the bills, so I turned to somsething more practical: medicine.
...
Finally, have you considered that having a family in and of itself is the successful accomplishment of a dream?
...
I know the biological clock is a female thing, but even as a man now aged 31 I get a little wistful when I see fathers out with their little kids, holding their hands, playing.

I understand your main comment which is "count your blessings", but I don't think you understand how contradictory your comment appears when you look at the whole.

Looking at what I've quoted above, you say first, "don't go into medicine as it will take you away from your kids" then "I went into medicine because I want a family and to pay the bills" then a little later "isn't family enough?" and then follow it with dreaming wistfully about being a father and holding your kids hand. If you really believe medicine and family are so incompatible, then what makes you think you will be a doctor AND will be the kind of dad that takes his kids to the park?

Personally, I believe that everything is a matter of compromise. Some people (not all) CAN manage to be good moms and dads and in medicine. They are likely not the top surgeons in the country and aren't flying everywhere to conferences, but they've lived their dream AND they have a family life. If you believe it is possible for you, then it is also possible for others.

Now do you understand Runtita?
 
Q, I agree with you completely - US med schools are looking for applicants who seem very, very likely to successfully complete their curriculum in 4 yrs or at worst 5, and to pass boards on first attempt.

When there are so many great applicants out there, it would be hard to convince them to take a chance on someone with a long history of only OK academic performance, with a single great test score.
Yeah. I think a good MCAT score with a poor overall academic record suggests that you'd probably be capable of passing the boards. The thing is, you have to survive an intense med school curriculum long enough to even make it to the point where you are eligible to take them. *That* is why I think UG GPA matters so much to adcoms, and not just MCAT scores.

Q- I agree with you, but would only add that there are many Pre-Osteo students with lower gpa's and high MCAT scores that do get interviews/acceptances. Generally there is some forgiveness for gpa at DO schools. Not that I'm trying to imply it is a sure thing because it really isn't, EVER, a sure thing (for ANYone)!!
This is true, but you still have to retake the classes with poor grades and earn an acceptable overall (replaced) GPA. That isn't going to be a semester-long effort in the OP's case, considering that she must now overcome the SMP GPA as well as the UG GPA.

The other part is that not that many people really manage to raise their MCAT score by a significant amount with re-takes (but you would know more about that than I do).
I'd say this depends on why they didn't score so well in the first place. Some things (ex. lack of familiarity with the test, holes in basic science knowledge) are relatively easy to fix, and those people can make a huge score jump in just a few months. Other things (poor reading comprehension, poor test-taking strategy, timing problems, severe test anxiety) are not such easy problems to fix. Unfortunately, a lot of people fall into the second category and thus have a difficult time raising their scores much.
 
ortho, it's been my observation (and experience) that the gpa "forgiveness" at DO schools is more of a forgiving the overall gpa. They'll overlook an overall of 3.0 if you had craptastic grades from years ago, went back and ROCKED. But if you went back to show you can do better and ... well ... don't ... they are about as forgiving as allo schools.

the gap between allo and osteo schools and forgiving poor performance is changing. As students become more competitive and more students apply, it's harder and harder for students who have recently failed to get in. And I have to say not doing well enough in an SMP to continue and complete it pretty much falls into the "failing" category when it comes to med school applications.

the problem here isn't mommy's end numbers. It's more that she went to a program to show that she could hack the work load and she didn't make the grade. It's the recent work that's going to hold her back now.
 
My opinion, IF you want to continue THEN you should retake the MCAT. I know the schools you talked to said your MCAT wasn't the problem. My opinion is that they were dirty, dirty liars. Not delibaate liars, of course, but next year they won't remember having talked to you and I think if you have a 35 you might have a shot of undoing the damage you did without investing half a decade. Because medical schools love stats. Not to say that you definitely won't need to invest half a decade to undo the dammage, but it's the only way I could see it even possibly happening.

So yeah, I'd say try one more time for the MCAT, if you can kill it maybe continue. Work for 1 year to bring up your grades and try reapplying one more time. If you get under a 30 again, well then you definitely need 3-5 years to fix your situation, you've gotta ask if that would be worth it.
 
When you get married, you are obligated to put your husband's or wife's welfare before your own.

I appreciate the general idea that you're espousing, but a problem arises when either the sacrifices are unequal or incompatible. It isn't as simple as blindly putting your spouse before yourself, and it seems like the OP's situation is one of incompatible needs/goals since the location restriction is as good as not applying at all. FWIW, I actually have a few friends who put something along the lines of "I promise to do my best to be honest about my desires and take responsibility for my own happiness" in their vows. I thought it was beautiful.
 
I realize that this was posted several months ago, but I thought a few points might be helpful. I should mention at the outset that I'm an attorney in the process of applying to post-bacc programs; but with a very low uGPA from many years ago, I've done a lot of research into medical school admissions before embarking on my course. So, with that caveat...

First, your question is framed wrong. This isn't about "surrendering." This is about deciding on a course of action that will add to a sense of happiness and meaning in your life. Your question assumes at the outset that to discover you should pursue a non MD/DO path would be, in some sense, catastrophic. The assumption is faulty.

I've broken this down into three sections:

-Re-assess your thinking about careers.
-UNDERSTAND why you have not achieved your goals academically. Is this something that can be remedied?
-Evaluate the suggestions offered in these postings.

Re-Assessment

Before anything else, you need to take stock. Why do you want to be a doctor? Have you fallen into the "either I'm a doctor or I'm nothing" way of thinking? It's not true. Come up with a list of careers that you think can be fulfilling. Flesh it out. For each item, write WHY you think it would be fulfilling. Ask yourself 1) what will be enjoyable about it, 2) what will be meaningful about it, and 3) in what way will it utilize your strengths?

There are some books on positive psychology (not the pop self-help books we see so many of; positive psychology is an evolving, respected branch of psychology, one of the chief proponents of which is a former President of the APA, which relies on scientific evidence for its theories and prescriptions) that you should look into. Martin Seligman is a good author to start with. You should find the research highly useful in formulating a list of options, and in escaping the "doctor or nothing" thinking that I suspect you've fallen into.

Understanding

Why didn't you perform better in the SMP? Was it a lack of available time? Was the material simply too difficult? What were your study habits? How many hours per week did you devote to study? HOW did you study? Did you use flashcards, paste sticky-notes around the house, recite certain facts and theories daily back to yourself?

Approach this scientifically. Observation: you scored x, y, z... in your SMP, leading to a 2.88. What explains this?

This is important. If you don't understand why, then your performance will not improve. Your understanding here will lead to improvement in any future academic/learning endeavor, whether in the medical field or elsewhere.

Once you understand, ask yourself whether adjustments can be made that will result in improved performance. Test your conclusions. For instance, take some non-credit courses at a local college, applying your adjustments. Has your performance improved? If so, by how much?

Evaluation

Okay, now about the simple chances of admission to med school and the advice offered in this thread:

1. The MCAT option. Adcoms are using your grades and MCATs to determine your likely range of success both within the medical school curriculum and on the Steps. The MCAT is actually the better predictor of performance on the Steps than your uGPA, all else being equal. Bringing up your MCAT will indicate to the adcoms that you are capable of making improvements, and are capable of scoring well on the Steps.

But their concern will be that you will not be able to perform satisfactorily in the medical school, and a higher MCAT will not by itself alleviate that concern, especially given a now lengthy academic record with recent performance stats for med-specific courses.

So the MCAT option is not the answer. It will help, certainly, and improving it should be part of any plan for re-application.

2. The uGPA Option. Improving this will take a very long time. How long depends on the numbers. Crunch them. Do the math. You should understand that more recent grades will be probably be weighted more heavily than less recent grades, so a simple averaging will likely result in an over-estimation of the time to correct the uGPA. A substantial number of recent uGPA credits in classes of reasonable difficulty and with high grades will help you beyond the effect on the simple, non-weighted, average uGPA.

Doing this would show that you can change your work/study habits, and improve. It indicates increased likelihood of success in medical school. But there remains the SMP. Since the SMP closely, if not exactly, replicates the med-school curriculum, this is likely a very strong indicator of your future academic performance in med-school (I have not seen any studies on this). Adcoms will weigh this very heavily, in my view.

A possible option to address the SMP might be to get a masters in a closely related science, performing well in the courses.

If you managed to do all those things: 1) improve your uGPA, 2) obtain a masters in a related science with a strong GPA, 3) improve your MCATS, and finally

4) use all three as evidence to persuasively explain why your previous record is misleading as to your chances of success in medical school, e.g. "Before I was doing x,y,z wrong, due to a,b,c. I figured out what was wrong, and fixed them. As a result I have now been able to do 1, 2, and 3."

Conclusion

So, you're going to need to do some real introspection about your reasons for being attracted to the MD/DO route (is it a healthy attraction, or a fling with a dubious stranger that has gotten out of hand), using the research produced by positive psychology to guide yourself; you're going to need to understand why your academic record stands as it does, and what adjustments would be necessary to change the performance (and HOW and AT WHAT COST will those adjustments be attained); you're going to need to crunch the numbers and see how much time it would take to persuade adcoms that your old record is no longer a good indicator of future performance.

And after all that, you can decide what to do.

The good news is that there is never just one career option that is "best" for anyone. You're going to come out of this well, and with options, regardless of the verdict you give to the MD/DO route.
 
I realize that this was posted several months ago, but I thought a few points might be helpful. I should mention at the outset that I'm an attorney in the process of applying to post-bacc programs; but with a very low uGPA from many years ago, I've done a lot of research into medical school admissions before embarking on my course. So, with that caveat...

First, your question is framed wrong. This isn't about "surrendering." This is about deciding on a course of action that will add to a sense of happiness and meaning in your life. Your question assumes at the outset that to discover you should pursue a non MD/DO path would be, in some sense, catastrophic. The assumption is faulty.

I've broken this down into three sections:

-Re-assess your thinking about careers.
-UNDERSTAND why you have not achieved your goals academically. Is this something that can be remedied?
-Evaluate the suggestions offered in these postings.

Re-Assessment

Before anything else, you need to take stock. Why do you want to be a doctor? Have you fallen into the "either I'm a doctor or I'm nothing" way of thinking? It's not true. Come up with a list of careers that you think can be fulfilling. Flesh it out. For each item, write WHY you think it would be fulfilling. Ask yourself 1) what will be enjoyable about it, 2) what will be meaningful about it, and 3) in what way will it utilize your strengths?

There are some books on positive psychology (not the pop self-help books we see so many of; positive psychology is an evolving, respected branch of psychology, one of the chief proponents of which is a former President of the APA, which relies on scientific evidence for its theories and prescriptions) that you should look into. Martin Seligman is a good author to start with. You should find the research highly useful in formulating a list of options, and in escaping the "doctor or nothing" thinking that I suspect you've fallen into.

Understanding

Why didn't you perform better in the SMP? Was it a lack of available time? Was the material simply too difficult? What were your study habits? How many hours per week did you devote to study? HOW did you study? Did you use flashcards, paste sticky-notes around the house, recite certain facts and theories daily back to yourself?

Approach this scientifically. Observation: you scored x, y, z... in your SMP, leading to a 2.88. What explains this?

This is important. If you don't understand why, then your performance will not improve. Your understanding here will lead to improvement in any future academic/learning endeavor, whether in the medical field or elsewhere.

Once you understand, ask yourself whether adjustments can be made that will result in improved performance. Test your conclusions. For instance, take some non-credit courses at a local college, applying your adjustments. Has your performance improved? If so, by how much?

Evaluation

Okay, now about the simple chances of admission to med school and the advice offered in this thread:

1. The MCAT option. Adcoms are using your grades and MCATs to determine your likely range of success both within the medical school curriculum and on the Steps. The MCAT is actually the better predictor of performance on the Steps than your uGPA, all else being equal. Bringing up your MCAT will indicate to the adcoms that you are capable of making improvements, and are capable of scoring well on the Steps.

But their concern will be that you will not be able to perform satisfactorily in the medical school, and a higher MCAT will not by itself alleviate that concern, especially given a now lengthy academic record with recent performance stats for med-specific courses.

So the MCAT option is not the answer. It will help, certainly, and improving it should be part of any plan for re-application.

2. The uGPA Option. Improving this will take a very long time. How long depends on the numbers. Crunch them. Do the math. You should understand that more recent grades will be probably be weighted more heavily than less recent grades, so a simple averaging will likely result in an over-estimation of the time to correct the uGPA. A substantial number of recent uGPA credits in classes of reasonable difficulty and with high grades will help you beyond the effect on the simple, non-weighted, average uGPA.

Doing this would show that you can change your work/study habits, and improve. It indicates increased likelihood of success in medical school. But there remains the SMP. Since the SMP closely, if not exactly, replicates the med-school curriculum, this is likely a very strong indicator of your future academic performance in med-school (I have not seen any studies on this). Adcoms will weigh this very heavily, in my view.

A possible option to address the SMP might be to get a masters in a closely related science, performing well in the courses.

If you managed to do all those things: 1) improve your uGPA, 2) obtain a masters in a related science with a strong GPA, 3) improve your MCATS, and finally

4) use all three as evidence to persuasively explain why your previous record is misleading as to your chances of success in medical school, e.g. "Before I was doing x,y,z wrong, due to a,b,c. I figured out what was wrong, and fixed them. As a result I have now been able to do 1, 2, and 3."

Conclusion

So, you're going to need to do some real introspection about your reasons for being attracted to the MD/DO route (is it a healthy attraction, or a fling with a dubious stranger that has gotten out of hand), using the research produced by positive psychology to guide yourself; you're going to need to understand why your academic record stands as it does, and what adjustments would be necessary to change the performance (and HOW and AT WHAT COST will those adjustments be attained); you're going to need to crunch the numbers and see how much time it would take to persuade adcoms that your old record is no longer a good indicator of future performance.

And after all that, you can decide what to do.

The good news is that there is never just one career option that is "best" for anyone. You're going to come out of this well, and with options, regardless of the verdict you give to the MD/DO route.

good advice

The MCAT alone will not prove anything to ADCOMS. You need consistent strong course work to prove that you are capable of handling the rigors of med school (and the boards for that matter, since Step 1 is a lot more knowledged based that the MCAT. The MCAT is more of a good at standardize test taker type of test). It looks a lot LOT better to have a 3.7+ consistent GPA with a 30 MCAT than someone with a 2.9 and 38
 
well, this app season did not go well for me.

basically when i called all of them to find out what to do to better my chances, i was told the same thing...raise my cum gpa. to do that is virtually impossible given i have a combined close to 300 credit hrs between grad and undergrad, so even if i took 30 credit hrs and got straight A's, it would raise my cum gpa by a whopping 0.05 which is really not enough to make much of a difference.
and then there is the smp which essentially has screwed me over. one lousy question away....which i keep kicking myself for since i changed my answer. but that is neither here nor there, since i can not change it. but it is a HUGE black mark against me.
i feel like a dog chasing it's tail. i keep going around and around in circles and getting nowhere.
basically i am stuck. i do not have the ability to apply broadly due to dh's work and the house situation (just purchased our house 3 yrs ago) and spending 4 yrs away from my kids is also not something i am quite willing to do, not to mention the extra expense that would add on.

so i am sitting here and i am strongly contemplating giving up, waving the white flag of surrender and moving on. i am thinking of getting my bsn, working as a nicu nurse then pursuing my np in neonatology.

You need to apply to more schools. 4 schools in illinois is not enough!
 
Whatever you do, don't let anyone else make the decision for you. I've seen a fair share of nontrads with GPAs of 2.5 or 3.9 who post on this site, asking anonymous strangers if medicine is right for them and if they stand a chance at getting in. Really no reason to do that - you should be the one asking yourself this question. We can answer specific questions about prequisites classes, community college credits, applications, MCATs, etc. but we can't serve as a mirror to the applicant's own ambitions.
 
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while i would be willing to put in the work, i do not see that this would make much of a difference application wise. it would take literally YEARS to raise my gpa anywhere near a 3.5, a sacrifice that going on 34 this yr i am also not willing to make.

Unfortunately/fortunately it is also about the schools wanting to see your drive and desire to be a physician- so even though it means raising your undergraduate GPA ever so slightly, those two years of 4.0 academics shows passion and dedication to the field.

I know it's silly, but DO schools replace grades rather than average them, so if you've got some C's (or worse) on your transcript, I would re-take those and GET A's in them...then re-apply.

And, I would highly, highly recommend talking to CCOM folks every chance you get because that appears to be your best option.

?

If CCOM is your top choice, focus on retakes of some of your undergraduate courses and complement it with upper level science courses- show that you can do the basics better and succeed in the more difficult courses.

:luck: with your decision!
 
I agree with the majority of folks here who say don't give up, yet.

You are right, going back to school to raise your GPA is a nonstarter. But you certainly CAN raise your MCAT score. Getting an even score (ie 10, 10, 10) that is 30 or above is in your sites and proves to the committees that you can handle the work.

In addition, you have control over the following items:
1. Who you choose for recommendation
2. Applying to a wide breath of schools (MD, DO, off shore)
3. Writing the best personal statement possible
4. AMCAS activities placement and content
5. Secondary essay responses
6. Interview performance

I'd say you have MANY ways to improve the application!

Good luck:)

MDadmit
 
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well, this app season did not go well for me.

i feel like a dog chasing it's tail. i keep going around and around in circles and getting nowhere. basically i am stuck. i do not have the ability to apply broadly due to dh's work and the house situation (just purchased our house 3 yrs ago) and spending 4 yrs away from my kids is also not something i am quite willing to do, not to mention the extra expense that would add on. so i am sitting here and i am strongly contemplating giving up, waving the white flag of surrender and moving on. i am thinking of getting my bsn, working as a nicu nurse then pursuing my np in neonatology.

So, after reading this thread for the first time (3 years later), how did this situation resolve itself? Sounds like despite all the given advice to quit while ahead, the OP was accepted to Midwestern after all?
 
So, after reading this thread for the first time (3 years later), how did this situation resolve itself? Sounds like despite all the given advice to quit while ahead, the OP was accepted to Midwestern after all?

last three years in a nutshell...

had applied to midwestern's 2 yr smp program...was waitlisted and eventually got in off the waitlist right before orientation
did exceedingly well in the program (top 1/4 of my class)
retook the mcat, got a 30 Q
reapplied to onlyillinois schools (due to husbands job being here and owning our house and not being able to relocate)
was placed on alternate list for ccom for class of 2014, ultimately getting called off alternate list and finished my first eyar of med school in may

now i sit here counting down until august 8th waiting the start of my second year


i guess i would have to say to anyone who has been told it is impossible, that you can not do it you can never acheive your dream....just to believe in yourself and find someone anyone who believes in you. when i applied to ccom i had people on my side who knew me and who knew the work eithic i had and what i was capable of....this made a HUGE difference!!!!

when the chips are down...keep trudging...anything ispossible. it only takes one person, just one, to look at you as a person with the incredible potential to become a doctor rather than the sum of your numbers which may not be stellar.
 
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congrats!!!! There is a midwestern group from old premeds that is looking to form a regional chapter. I am sure that they would love to have you talk about your experiences.
 
and yes the cape is standard ;)

That is simply awesome!!

You go girl! Pickin em up and knockin em down. Persistence is more important than just about anything.

You are amazing!
 
I rarely post on here (mostly because I don't want everything I say to get picked apart and make me feel terrible about myself :)), but after reading your story and all of the replies you received, many of which told you that your feat was nearly impossible, I think it is SO fantastic that you were able to, not only get into MS, but get into one that worked for your family situation. My highest congratulations! You are truly an inspiration!
 
congrats!!!! There is a midwestern group from old premeds that is looking to form a regional chapter. I am sure that they would love to have you talk about your experiences.

yep, i post over there (under a different psuedonym) and have already volunteered to have my brain picked :laugh:
 
Thumbs up from a 32 year old MS4. You've made it past some of the hardest parts of this career path! Also thanks for the posts about oldpremeds. Had no idea that existed.
 
Wonderful! It feels great to get a positive update from you. :)
 
congrats mommy2three
 
Yeah, this is a great story. Awesome. Now I am hoping to get out of the same hole as her, only difference being a 36 MCAT and applying more widely, but without an SMP...we'll see. About 10 secondaries complete so far...:xf:
 
OMG! Congratulations mommy!!! Somehow I started to read this thread instead of going to bed like I should have and I am so thrilled to see that you did it! Wow. You really are an inspiration.

Wonderful! :D
 
Another awesome and inspirational story with a happy ending!

Congratulations!
 
I was scared reading the replies you got in 2009 because I'm in a similar situation... (I have low undergrad GPA but all my post bac classes has been A's. Currently waiting for my mcat score to be released)
I'm extremely happy for you that you were able to get in med school and everything is working out the way you want it. Your story gave me hope!
 
I feel your pain, but I wouldn't give up quite yet. I had a 3.1 GPA as well, and I got soundly rejected from all 7 schools I applied to my first time around.

But then I got back up, redid my essays, and applied more widely the second time.

A few things I would do. It's all very well to say that you should improve you UGPA, but you're right, there's little you can do. What you CAN do is improve your MCAT score. I know it sounds far fetched, but a 35 will go a long way to alleviate their concerns about your academic ability. A 35 on a single test is easier than pulling up your GPA to 3.5.

Secondly, you only applied to four schools. I know you had to stay in Chicago (I read your MDapp), but four schools isn't enough even to cover chance in this game. I applied to 16 and got into one. That's the kind of odds you may also be facing. Perhaps you can wait and reapply when you would be willing to move?

You can go to med school. I certainly believe it. But you may have to take more time, get more experience, improve your MCAT, and consider leaving that lovely city. It just depends what you want more.

I agree with this post.

I have a 3.09 ugrad GPA... but my frosh and soph years are pathetic. somehow I earned an MS in Exercise Physiology and I have a lot of clinical research experience, ton of shadowing and volunteer hours and 4 publications (only 1 first author), and a first authorship in prep. If you have something similar for well-roundedness and the determination... as this OP stated... a GOOD Mcat score can certainly carry solid weight (from what I've spoken to numerous adcoms from both Md and DO schools (b/c I said **** that and e-mailed admissions officers)... but the lower your GPA, the higher your Mcat score. A post-bacc (formal or informal) can't hurt your chances (unless you blow it)... and one can only assume you're doing a post-bacc if you're 100% dedicated to medicine.

I firmly believe we all make mistakes and we all pay a price, but it shouldn't cost us everything we want in life. With that said... amazing GPA's and MCAT scores can make for good doctors, but those with discipline, rash, but sound cognitive abilities and who are well rounded... putting in the hard work and effort to go to medical school - despite being burned out and feeling ****ty still push through... and then fight through the 100 hour residency weeks... for crap pay.. (yes typing in ellipses) ... those make great doctors in my opinion.

A person who works hard for a post-bacc, SMP, etc... with decent MCAT or better and some good EC's, IMO, is just as good as someone with the EC's... a good GPA, and decent or better MCAT scores.

I don't believe in smart or not smart. It's all relative to how hard you work. Yes, some have a better inclination for making good decisions and are quick on their feet without being too brash to make a choice/decision... but if you really want it, take it. It's yours too. Yes, you may not specialize in a particular area of medicine or surgery, but you can earn that right just as much as anyone else.

I will contradict myself and say not everyone has the capacity to engage in higher education/advanced studies... ie pursuing medical careers or academic careers. That is determined by a floor level of intelligence that must be met to be considered for such achievements. Those that lack it... usually are easily weeded out.

Congratulations on your achievements OP!
 
M23
I gotta say in my head I was one of the naysayers. Congrats to you on proving all of us wrong. Congrats on finishing M1 & have a great summer!
 
You start M2 on my birthday. It is a great day indeed! Congrats again, and I am hoping I can get in as well!! Don't have great stats, but not horrible, so here's to hoping/wishing/praying!
 
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