Third time applying with GPA 3.7 MCAT 34 (LOW verbal) ................?

[Mmeow]

I'm a re-applicant for 2015 cycle. I have not received all of my results yet (about 4 schools left.. but highly unlikely that I would get an II from them) but I am feeling this cycle again has no luck for me. I only had one II so far from my in-state school, which I was rejected a few days ago.

First time applied (2014 cycle)
The main reason I got rejected was because I applied so late. I ended up not finishing the secondaries for the majority of schools (only applied to about 5 schools) that I applied. I did not know that it would put me in a "re-applicant" category the next cycle. Stupid mistake....
undergrad one of top UCs
GPA 3.74 (lowest grade B with molecular bio major, no re-takes or withdrawals)
MCAT 31 (BS 11 VR 9 PS 12)
200 hrs of volunteering
1 publication in physical chem journal (second author) during high school
2 weeks of shadowing in another country
3 months of research (summer) experience during undergrad - got recommendation
LORs from two professors (barely knows me.. but I think they are OK ones.)

Second time (2015 cycle)
applied 20 schools.. probably not getting II because of my way-too-low verbal score for the retake (it's my second language... to make an excuse..) I hoped that my English grades might make it up.. but I guess not.
MCAT 34 (BS 14 VR 6 PS 14)
besides the previous ECs.. I added on
100+ more hrs of volunteering
3 months of shadowing and assisting in OB/GYN clinic (7 hours a week) - got recommendation
work experience of teaching high school kids with SAT II sciences

I just need advices on applying for the third time with my stats.... Is applying the third time gonna put me in a big disadvantage? Is it worth a shot? and if I should give it another shot, what do you think I should do (EMT? CNA? Research?) to make my app better? I'm thinking of doing research possibly because I would probably go into research if i fail the third time... (really need to make a plan B now..) Should I re-take the MCAT? Should I apply this coming cycle again? or should i wait one year doing other things (probably working)?

If you are against re-applying, what are the good career options for a person like me (who wanted to go to med school but things didn't work out)? I'm sure I will pursue something in science cuz its the only thing i am good at.. Research? Other health professions?

Any comments, thoughts, suggestions.... ANYTHING.. would be appreciated. Thanks.

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[Goro]

Try DO schools and the newest MD schools; a VVR9 -> VR6 is going to be lethal for most other MD schools.

 

[DrMidlife]

If you're willing to give up on med school, then yeah, give up on med school. There are an infinite number of other things you can do for a whole lot less training time/money. If you honestly have no idea what other careers are interesting to you, then go find out.

That said, having to apply more than once is normal in California, even with great numbers.

But yes, that verbal trend is worrisome. If you really want to get the job done right and apply strongly in June, you should take the new MCAT and show that you are serious about addressing your verbal/humanities capabilities which matter forever.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Man this is rough to read. No reason you shouldn't be able to make it if it's your dream. I think in this case, all the applications, all the MCAT retakes... Idk, if I were an adcom I'd see that as dedication at the very least. You're not a stubborn 3.2/24 applicant applying over and over. You've just got one weakness. I think add some DO schools and apply broadly to schools that seem to not take the MCAT so seriously. You're clearly capable of learning material in English with the double 14s in the sciences. I guess take a shot at the new MCAT and go again. Personally, if I were an adcom at a low stat school, I'd probably snatch you up just because I think there's potential the MCAT isn't catching that other people aren't seeing. That verbal section is just weird. Very tough to get a grasp of, even for a native speaker. Not to say it doesn't measure anything, but I think a deficiency in that area, especially with ESL, it doesn't mean you can't be a great doctor.

Good luck.

And if my gap years have taught me anything, it's that there are a LOT of careers out there other than medicine, and most will give you a better quality of life. It's true what they say. Only go into this if you can't see yourself doing anything else.

 

[Superbman]

nvm

 

[oldstock]

I got accepted with a 24 MCAT BS-10 PS-8 VR-6 and a 3.8ish GPA to an MD school. I think you're just not applying to the right schools. For some ECs try getting involved with the community, for example I coached a baseball team since I graduated high school at the local boy's and girl's club. Ecs shouldn't be all healthcare man, I mean part of being a doctor is interacting with the community. You have to show that you actually enjoy that. I had 7 interviews when I applied, I had to start canceling them because I already was accepted and didn't care to interview. But in all my interviews, I remember resorting back to the kids I coached. I would talk about them and how I influenced them, but also how they influenced me. Medical school interviews (and secondaries as well) aren't all about medicine! And I don't mean going to your local red cross shelter and serving homeless people chili. Do something meaningful to you. I love baseball and I enjoy watching my team go from nothing to league champs.

When choosing schools, always research how many out of state applicants matriculate.
use this:
http://medical-schools.findthebest.com

If you didn't get many secondaries applying to 20 schools, it's because you didn't research them and see which schools take out of state applicants. Obviously you don't want to apply to public schools who only take their in-state residents.
You have the scores to get into medical school. No need to retake the MCAT in my opinion.

I think for you to get accepted, you HAVE TO get involved with your community. Most of my ECs were community things.

Applying a third time will not hurt you. It should show devotion—it'll look rather persevering.

I don't know your whole story. Did you get help with correcting your PS? do you have a teacher review your secondary responses? All that matters. Are you getting interviews? If not, well then you know your secondaries or Primary needs changes. You have the grades, the educational ECs and the volunteering (although I'm not sure what you volunteered with). Maybe you should get help writing your responses and essays, and choosing which schools to apply to.

Like I said, I got in with a 24 MCAT, I see no reason for you to not get in. I really think it's your sec. apps, schools chosen, and primary. But I'm just guessing—I could be completely wrong. I don't mean anything to be perceived as offensive either.

Good luck

while your story above is encouraging, I think 24 MCAT is low to be admitted to a medical school, even when it is accompanied by a 3.8 GPA. Of course I do not know your whole story. I do think there must be more to your story than what is said above.

but I agree the OP should have been admitted to med school already.

 

[oldstock]

while your story above is encouraging, I think 24 MCAT is low to be admitted to a medical school, even when it is accompanied by a 3.8 GPA. Of course I do not know your whole story. I do think there must be more to your story than what is said above.

but I agree the OP should have been admitted to med school already.

24 MCAT 3.8 GPA baseball team coach = 7 med school interviews = accepted to great schools like U of Minnesota, Mayo. wow wow wow.

Sorry that sounds really extraordinary so I looked at your posts and I think this may be the hint,

Also, does Colorado have a large Spanish-speaking population?

imho, if you are indeed Hispanic, your advice might not be appropriate for the OP, who might not be in the same applicant category.

 

[DrMidlife]

24 MCAT 3.8 GPA baseball team coach = 7 med school interviews = accepted to great schools like U of Minnesota, Mayo. wow wow wow.

Either this is total BS or you are URM.

For the general population a 24 on the MCAT means you're not going to MD school. And schools that admit students with a low MCAT are not doing any favors, because there's nothing but constant unrelenting hours-long multiple choice exams in med school.

 

[oldstock]

Either this is total BS or you are URM.

For the general population a 24 on the MCAT means you're not going to MD school. And schools that admit students with a low MCAT are not doing any favors, because there's nothing but constant unrelenting hours-long multiple choice exams in med school.

It is not me. It is Superbman who got such stats and he got in all the great med schools. My parents should have lived in Mexico or something jk

I got accepted with a 24 MCAT BS-10 PS-8 VR-6 and a 3.8ish GPA to an MD school. I think you're just not applying to the right schools. For some ECs try getting involved with the community, for example I coached a baseball team since I graduated high school at the local boy's and girl's club. Ecs shouldn't be all healthcare man, I mean part of being a doctor is interacting with the community. You have to show that you actually enjoy that. I had 7 interviews when I applied, I had to start canceling them because I already was accepted and didn't care to interview. But in all my interviews, I remember resorting back to the kids I coached. I would talk about them and how I influenced them, but also how they influenced me. Medical school interviews (and secondaries as well) aren't all about medicine! And I don't mean going to your local red cross shelter and serving homeless people chili. Do something meaningful to you. I love baseball and I enjoy watching my team go from nothing to league champs.

When choosing schools, always research how many out of state applicants matriculate.
use this:
http://medical-schools.findthebest.com

If you didn't get many secondaries applying to 20 schools, it's because you didn't research them and see which schools take out of state applicants. Obviously you don't want to apply to public schools who only take their in-state residents.
You have the scores to get into medical school. No need to retake the MCAT in my opinion.

I think for you to get accepted, you HAVE TO get involved with your community. Most of my ECs were community things.

Applying a third time will not hurt you. It should show devotion—it'll look rather persevering.

I don't know your whole story. Did you get help with correcting your PS? do you have a teacher review your secondary responses? All that matters. Are you getting interviews? If not, well then you know your secondaries or Primary needs changes. You have the grades, the educational ECs and the volunteering (although I'm not sure what you volunteered with). Maybe you should get help writing your responses and essays, and choosing which schools to apply to.

Like I said, I got in with a 24 MCAT, I see no reason for you to not get in. I really think it's your sec. apps, schools chosen, and primary. But I'm just guessing—I could be completely wrong. I don't mean anything to be perceived as offensive either.

Good luck

 

[Superbman]

Well he is urn too. So I assumed since he lives in cali and doesn't speak English.

And I didn't get in the mainland I get in PR. So that's what I'm saying, fix your app and apply to the right schools.

 

[Superbman]

He has good scores. I see no reason to discourage him. Just fix your apps and apply outside of Cali

 

[Superbman]

Or she

 

[oldstock]

Well he is urn too. So I assumed since he lives in cali and doesn't speak English.

And I didn't get in the mainland I get in PR. So that's what I'm saying, fix your app and apply to the right schools.

not any ESL pre-med is URM

and you got accepted to U of Minnesota, Mayo, and a couple others too right ??

 

[Superbman]

And I thought this was under the URM forum I didn't realize it wasn't. These two forums Are right next to each other.

 

[Superbman]

No. I didn't get accepted to mayo.

 

[Superbman]

Or any others

 

[oldstock]

And I thought this was under the URM forum I didn't realize it wasn't. These two forums Are right next to each other.

be careful when you do careful surgery later, right hand/leg is next to the left one jk (bad joke I know lol)

 

[Superbman]

Haha okay, well if you're urm, make sure to pick the right schools! And my mistakes again? I thought it was the URM forum!!!!!!!!

 

[oldstock]

No. I didn't get accepted to mayo.

Or any others

I am too late to quote your posts where you said you got accepted to U of Minnesota, Mayo, and many others. Obviously now you have gone back to delete your original posts and changed it to "nvm". I will not delete the quotes I quoted from your posts as I have always quoted people for reference and record. So please do not ask me to.

Now people can know how easy URMs get admission to medical schools, even top medical schools in the nations while other people are struggling to get secondaries from any medical school like the OP here with such a great stat,

I'm a re-applicant for 2015 cycle. I have not received all of my results yet (about 4 schools left.. but highly unlikely that I would get an II from them) but I am feeling this cycle again has no luck for me. I only had one II so far from my in-state school, which I was rejected a few days ago.

First time applied (2014 cycle)
The main reason I got rejected was because I applied so late. I ended up not finishing the secondaries for the majority of schools (only applied to about 5 schools) that I applied. I did not know that it would put me in a "re-applicant" category the next cycle. Stupid mistake....
undergrad one of top UCs
GPA 3.74 (lowest grade B with molecular bio major, no re-takes or withdrawals)
MCAT 31 (BS 11 VR 9 PS 12)
200 hrs of volunteering
1 publication in physical chem journal (second author) during high school
2 weeks of shadowing in another country
3 months of research (summer) experience during undergrad - got recommendation
LORs from two professors (barely knows me.. but I think they are OK ones.)

Second time (2015 cycle)
applied 20 schools.. probably not getting II because of my way-too-low verbal score for the retake (it's my second language... to make an excuse..) I hoped that my English grades might make it up.. but I guess not.
MCAT 34 (BS 14 VR 6 PS 14)
besides the previous ECs.. I added on
100+ more hrs of volunteering
3 months of shadowing and assisting in OB/GYN clinic (7 hours a week) - got recommendation
work experience of teaching high school kids with SAT II sciences

I just need advices on applying for the third time with my stats.... Is applying the third time gonna put me in a big disadvantage? Is it worth a shot? and if I should give it another shot, what do you think I should do (EMT? CNA? Research?) to make my app better? I'm thinking of doing research possibly because I would probably go into research if i fail the third time... (really need to make a plan B now..) Should I re-take the MCAT? Should I apply this coming cycle again? or should i wait one year doing other things (probably working)?

If you are against re-applying, what are the good career options for a person like me (who wanted to go to med school but things didn't work out)? I'm sure I will pursue something in science cuz its the only thing i am good at.. Research? Other health professions?

Any comments, thoughts, suggestions.... ANYTHING.. would be appreciated. Thanks.

imho, if URMs are given special treatments in admission and / or training because their populations are under-represented in medicine, their licenses to practice medicine should be restricted to only practicing medicine within their own populations / communities.

Personally, I will try my best not to be treated by a URM doctor, because I think most of them are underqualified and lesser students compared to the general pool. I want the best doctors I can get to treat me !! I am sure God does not give me a URM status on my life and spare me when the time comes

But enjoy medical school !!

 

[Mmeow]

Thanks for all your replies. I really appreciate them! Taking your advices, I'll probably apply one last time but also have a backup so that I don't end up jobless, aimless.. And i'll apply to schools that i didnt apply to in the past.

@Goro Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.

@DrMidlife I'm not a CA resident. I was OOS... but still.. thanks for your advice.

@Dr.Zoidberg Thank you for cheering me up. It's just frustrating.. sitting here receiving only rejection emails... or silence.

@oldstock Thanks for pointing that out (URM... lol)

@Superbman Though you changed your post to nvm i'll still answer some of your questions to clarify. (And yeah i'm not URM... mehhh.. more like an international student.. though i'm a citizen.) And i'm a she..

As far as my app PS goes, I got feedbacks from a current med student, 3 of my college friends, and revisions from an english teacher (humanities major). but I received less help for the secondaries... I wouldnt say the writings were great but i dont think they were bad enough to hurt my chances. :/


To add... :

I received secondaries from all the schools I applied except one. I have a couple pre-interview holds now but I don't think I'll have a chance, considering i only had one II so far. It's funny that you guys suggest me to target low-tier schools nxt time but I got straight rejections from majority of the low-tier schools and holds from a couple mid-tier schools. Anyways... i don't think I have a chance for an II from those mid-tiers.

So I guess some of you guys are telling me to retake and some are suggesting me to just apply once more with my current score? I'll try retaking if my verbal score goes up high enough in time.. but i'm afraid what my score would be with the new section and i'm sure i wouldn't be able to get double 14 from sciences...

and.. what about ECs? might be able to add in some more clinical experiences... but i don't wanna spend another year volunteering/shadowing.. (I've spent most of past ~2 years doing that..) I'd rather get a full-time job that I can continue on later even after i get rejected one last time..

 

[Dr.Zoidberg]

I am too late to quote your posts where you said you got accepted to U of Minnesota, Mayo, and many others. Obviously now you have gone back to delete your original posts and changed it to "nvm". I will not delete the quotes I quoted from your posts as I have always quoted people for reference and record. So please do not ask me to.

Now people can know how easy URMs get admission to medical schools, even top medical schools in the nations while other people are struggling to get secondaries from any medical school like the OP here with such a great stat,



imho, if URMs are given special treatments in admission and / or training because their populations are under-represented in medicine, their licenses to practice medicine should be restricted to only practicing medicine within their own populations / communities.

Personally, I will try my best not to be treated by a URM doctor, because I think most of them are underqualified and lesser students compared to the general pool. I want the best doctors I can get to treat me !! I am sure God does not give me a URM status on my life and spare me when the time comes

But enjoy medical school !!

Careful where you voice these opinions. Most people will take offense to this kind of talk. I am not URM (I'm ORM), but I do NOT agree that URMs shouldn't be admitted to MD schools preferentially. The world needs doctors of every ilk, and these students do fill a needed role. Sure, at times it can seem like there's a bit of an over-correction going on, especially when it comes to scholarships (most people are paying entirely with loans), but keep in mind that while it's not the ideal way to decide things, it's the only way to get a diverse new generation of doctors into the work force. Keep in mind that while many privileged students do benefit from URM preference, a great deal also come from very difficult upbringings, and their successes, despite seeming less impressive, are entirely their own. Just try not to take it personally.

 

[oldstock]

Careful where you voice these opinions. Most people will take offense to this kind of talk. I am not URM (I'm ORM), but I do NOT agree that URMs shouldn't be admitted to MD schools preferentially. The world needs doctors of every ilk, and these students do fill a needed role. Sure, at times it can seem like there's a bit of an over-correction going on, especially when it comes to scholarships (most people are paying entirely with loans), but keep in mind that while it's not the ideal way to decide things, it's the only way to get a diverse new generation of doctors into the work force. Keep in mind that while many privileged students do benefit from URM preference, a great deal also come from very difficult upbringings, and their successes, despite seeming less impressive, are entirely their own. Just try not to take it personally.

You have an opinion that you think is right and have the right to say it. I respect that no matter you are a URM or not. But it does not mean that you are right. At least not to me.

I do have my opinion and I do have the right to say mine. Please respect that.

Regarding URM, I know that different people are coming from different backgrounds, some are from very difficult backgrounds. However, they can be helped to be brought to competent level by special assistance programs and money in terms of scholarships. To let in unqualified and incompetent candidates in the name of diversifying the workforce is wrong and unfair to other candidates and dangerous to future patients.

Why med schools are still asking URMs for their MCAT or asking them to take the MCAT is way beyond me.

I don't know about you but the last thing I want is to have a doctor who got special treatments in admission and / or training to touch me. I want the most competent and qualified doctors to care for me, no matter black / white / yellow / red or blue, who have gone through and passed the most difficult hoops and bars, earned the highest marks in schools and training to become competent physicians that they are. My health and my life are my most precious things in the world so yes it is very personal about who are going to be my doctors.

If you want to play political correct, it is within your right to do so. I want to speak what I think and believe is right. Respectfully.

Anyway, I did not come to a URM to say all this. Please be careful not to impose yourself on others. And I do not believe you are speaking on the behalf of most people here so please do not pretend saying so.

 

[oldstock]

Another thing, now I have already spoken my opinion, I will not say any more on this URM here as it is not the topic of this thread. If anyone likes to discuss or debate this matter, please PM me.

 

[reapplicanthelpme2014]

I am too late to quote your posts where you said you got accepted to U of Minnesota, Mayo, and many others. Obviously now you have gone back to delete your original posts and changed it to "nvm". I will not delete the quotes I quoted from your posts as I have always quoted people for reference and record. So please do not ask me to.

Now people can know how easy URMs get admission to medical schools, even top medical schools in the nations while other people are struggling to get secondaries from any medical school like the OP here with such a great stat,



imho, if URMs are given special treatments in admission and / or training because their populations are under-represented in medicine, their licenses to practice medicine should be restricted to only practicing medicine within their own populations / communities.

Personally, I will try my best not to be treated by a URM doctor, because I think most of them are underqualified and lesser students compared to the general pool. I want the best doctors I can get to treat me !! I am sure God does not give me a URM status on my life and spare me when the time comes

But enjoy medical school !!

This HAS to be a troll post. It has too. Quite possibly the most racist, idiotic post I've ever seen on SDN. And you don't even sound literate! How are you trying to disrespect a whole race population? What? Please stop.

 

[reapplicanthelpme2014]

Another thing, now I have already spoken my opinion, I will not say any more on this URM here as it is not the topic of this thread. If anyone likes to discuss or debate this matter, please PM me.

If you want to believe that you're struggling to get into medical school because URMs have "a better chance" of getting accepted, go ahead. Play the blame game if it helps you sleep at night. But keep in mind that URMs make up 11% of the applicant pool. THAT'S IT. And URMs may be able to get into schools with lower stats because of the need to increase URM physicians to serve underserved populations and increase the diversity of the medical field. To assume that ALL URMs are incompetent is a gross generalization. Also, your assumption that high stats means a better physician is ridiculous. I encourage you to do more research on the correlation between MCAT score and success in medical school before you open your mouth to spew nonsense like this. Absolutely disgusting. You can have your opinions, but make sure they're informed.

 

[oldstock]

This HAS to be a troll post. It has too. Quite possibly the most racist, idiotic post I've ever seen on SDN. And you don't even sound literate! How are you trying to disrespect a whole race population? What? Please stop.

I do not disrespect any race here. Are you trying to put words in my mouth ?? Please tell me where you got that from in my posts ?? Racist, where ??

If you want to believe that you're struggling to get into medical school because URMs have "a better chance" of getting accepted, go ahead. Play the blame game if it helps you sleep at night. But keep in mind that URMs make up 11% of the applicant pool. THAT'S IT. And URMs may be able to get into schools with lower stats because of the need to increase URM physicians to serve underserved populations and increase the diversity of the medical field. To assume that ALL URMs are incompetent is a gross generalization. Also, your assumption that high stats means a better physician is ridiculous. I encourage you to do more research on the correlation between MCAT score and success in medical school before you open your mouth to spew nonsense like this. Absolutely disgusting. You can have your opinions, but make sure they're informed.

11 % or not, it is not the point. The point is that URM get preferential treatments in medical school admission and medical training. If the whole thing that you are saying here, "to serve underserved populations", is true, then I think their medical licenses should be restricted to practicing medicine within the underserved populations / communities that they came from and supposed to serve after their medical education and training just bc they earn that restriction by using the preferential treatments.

I also do not assume ALL URMs are competent. There are many URMs with great stats and highly competent. But it is a widely known fact that many if not most or all URMs have much easier time to gain college (medical school) admission and job (residency) training than the rest of us.

As with all things in life, when you measure things, you have to have some metrics to measure things with. Metrics like GPAs and MCATs give something that are objective, measurable and transparent to ensure a transparent and fair admission process. High stats like high GPAs and high MCATs mean there are high chances that the students are having bettter studying habits and better prepped and more ready for the programs / schools. High stats give more solid and measurable proofs that the students meet the required qualifications.

In fact, schools around the world for thousands of years administer tests to select and graduate their students. Let me ask you, how would you judge a school without tests or a student without grades ??

Most Carribean med schools accept students with subjective admission standards and no requirement of MCAT and low min GPAs. What do you think/guess about the general quality of the students there ??

We might never ever be able to determine the correlation of high academic stats and a better physician. "Better" is a subjective word (as in "better in what ??") But I think there is a high correlation of high academic stats and the COMPETENCY of the physician. MCAT, USMLE, undegrad GPA, med school GPA are all the objective, transparent, and fair metrics designed to measure the competency of the doctor-in-training. We do not want to just rely subjectively on just letters of rec, races, backgrounds, etc to judge a candidate.

Again, you might potentially become a "better" or competent physician with low stats of undergrad GPAs and/or MCAT. But that is not the point.

The point is, imho, many URMs are unfairly taking the seats of many other qualified candidates. URMs or not you all have to earn your spot in medical school and residency training fairly like ALL other candidates by going through the same process and under the same rules/treatments. If you want a spot in medical schools, please show that you are a better candidate in all admission categories including the MCAT and undergrad GPAs than the next guys/gals. This is just fairness !! Metrics such as the MCAT and undergrad GPA ensure a fair game to all candidates to medical schools.

as for increasing diversity of the medical field, I do not think it should be done on the expense of academic and admission standards (lowered) and fairness to all students. America is the land of EQUAL OPPORTUNITY, NOT the land of ENTITLEMENT (at least that is what our founding fathers intended to). Many pre-med students of ALL RACES come from disadvantaged backgrounds, not only URMs. Regardless of races, we should help all to enter the race to college (or medical school) admission and job training on equal and level playing fields and subject all to the same rules of the game. Disadvantaged students or URMs can be helped/assisted with special assisting programs in terms of money and scholarships to enter the game on the same levels as other students. But let them ALL earn their school admission and jobs on their own merits and hard work and compete fairly under the same rules and standards as others.



As all other pre-med students, I am informed alright, mind you, about this URMs situation. I think it is unfair to all of us, including many URMs who are excellent students with great undegrad GPAs and MCATs.

This preferential treatment in admission also creates the sense of entitlement among many URM students. In fact, I have come across posts where the student/poster asked for people's opinions on what to to do bc he/she got low undergrad GPA and MCAT. When many told him/her to retake the MCAT and improve his/her GPA, the reply was like,

Your chances are almost nil of getting into an MD school. Even DO school will be difficult. Howard and the like have lower scores because they largely focus on disadvantaged black applicants (they are historically black medical colleges).

But that is what I am BLACK!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/i-am-an-icu-nurse-with-low-mcat-score.1115476/#post-16061406


----

I really do not want to hijack this thread as the topic is not about URM's admission to medical schools. I did invite people who disagree with me to debate/discuss this matter in PM (and/or different threads). But my invite does not mean to give you a license to insult me in PM with language like this,

Wtf is your problem?! Are you one of those applicants who feels entitled to a spot in medical school, and because you didn't get it, now you're bitter? Looking for a scapegoat?! I do NOT take kindly to blatant racism on these forums, so if you want a fu*king debate, you got it! I'm a URM who had to reapply after applying to late last cycle, and I'm damn smart and probably have better stats then you. So watch your f*cking mouth about URMs.

if you want to insult me, I do invite you to do that IN PUBLIC !!!!

 

[reapplicanthelpme2014]

I do not disrespect any race here. Are you trying to put words in my mouth ?? Please tell me where you got that from in my posts ?? Racist, where ??




11 % or not, it is not the point. The point is that URM get preferential treatments in medical school admission and medical training. If the whole thing that you are saying here, "to serve underserved populations", is true, then I think their medical licenses should be restricted to practicing medicine within the underserved populations / communities that they came from and supposed to serve after their medical education and training just bc they earn that restriction by using the preferential treatments.

I also do not assume ALL URMs are competent. There are many URMs with great stats and highly competent. But it is a wide known fact that many but not most or all URMs have much easier time to gain college (medical school) admission and job (residency) training.

As all things in life, when you measure things, you have to have some metrics to measure things with. Metrics like GPAs and MCATs give something that are objective, measurable and transparent to ensure a transparent and fair admission process. High stats like high GPAs and high MCATs mean there are high chances that the students are having bettter studying habits and better prepped and more ready for the programs / schools. High stats give solid and measurable proofs that the students meet the required qualifications.

In fact, schools around the world for thousands of years administer tests to select and graduate their students. Let me ask you, how would you judge a schools without tests or a student without grades ??

Most Carribean med schools accepts their students with subjective admission standards and no requirement of MCAT and low min GPAs. What do you think/guess about the general quality of students there ??

We might never ever be able to determine the correlation of high academic stats and a better physician. "Better" is a subjective word (as in "better in what ??") But I think there is a high correlation of high academic stats and the COMPETENCY of the physician. MCAT, USMLE, undegrad GPA, med school GPA are all the objective, transparent, and fair metrics to measure the competency of the doctor-in-training. We do not want to just rely subjective on just letters of rec, races, backgrounds, etc to judge a candidate.

Again, you might potentially become a "better" or competent physician with low stats of undergrad GPAs and/or MCAT. But that is not the point.

The point is, imho, many URMs are unfairly taking the seats of many other qualified candidates. URMs or not you all have to earn your spot in medical school and residency training fairly like ALL other candidate, going through the same process and under the same rules/treatments. If you want a spot in medical schools, plese show that you are a better candidates in all admission categories including the MCAT and undergrad GPAs than the next guy/gal. This is just fairness !! Metrics such as the MCAT and undergrad GPA ensure a fair game to all candidate to medical schools.

as for increasing diversity of the medical field, I do not think it should be done on the expense of academic and admission standards (lowered) and fairness to all students. America is the land of EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES, NOT the land of ENTITLEMENT. Many pre-med students of ALL RACES come from disadvantage backgrounds, not only URMs. Regardless of races, we should help all to enter the race to college (or medical school) admission and job training on equal and level playing fields and subject all to the same rules of the game. Disadvantaged students or URMs can be helped/assisted with special assisting programs in terms of money and scholarships to enter the game on the same levels as other students. But let them ALL earn their school admission and jobs on their own merits and hardwork and compete fairly under the same rules and standards as others.



As all other pre-med students, I am informed alright, mind you, about this URMs situation. I think it is unfair to all of us, including many URMs who are excellent students with great undegrad GPAs and MCATs.

This preferential treatment in admission also creates the sense of entitlement among many URM students. In fact, I have come across posts where the student/poster ask for people's opinions on what to to do bc he/she got low undergrad GPA and MCAT. When many told him/her to retake the MCAT and improve his/her GPA, the reply was,


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/i-am-an-icu-nurse-with-low-mcat-score.1115476/#post-16061406


----

I really do not want to hijack this thread as the topic is not about URM's admission to medical schools. I did invite people who disagree with me to debate/discuss this matter in PM (and/or different threads). But my invite does not mean to give you a license to insult me in PM with language like this,


if you want to insult me, I do invite me to do that IN PUBLIC !!!!

Wishing you all the best in your future endeavors!

 

[Mad Jack]

I do not disrespect any race here. Are you trying to put words in my mouth ?? Please tell me where you got that from in my posts ?? Racist, where ??




11 % or not, it is not the point. The point is that URM get preferential treatments in medical school admission and medical training. If the whole thing that you are saying here, "to serve underserved populations", is true, then I think their medical licenses should be restricted to practicing medicine within the underserved populations / communities that they came from and supposed to serve after their medical education and training just bc they earn that restriction by using the preferential treatments.

I also do not assume ALL URMs are competent. There are many URMs with great stats and highly competent. But it is a wide known fact that many but not most or all URMs have much easier time to gain college (medical school) admission and job (residency) training.

As all things in life, when you measure things, you have to have some metrics to measure things with. Metrics like GPAs and MCATs give something that are objective, measurable and transparent to ensure a transparent and fair admission process. High stats like high GPAs and high MCATs mean there are high chances that the students are having bettter studying habits and better prepped and more ready for the programs / schools. High stats give solid and measurable proofs that the students meet the required qualifications.

In fact, schools around the world for thousands of years administer tests to select and graduate their students. Let me ask you, how would you judge a schools without tests or a student without grades ??

Most Carribean med schools accepts their students with subjective admission standards and no requirement of MCAT and low min GPAs. What do you think/guess about the general quality of students there ??

We might never ever be able to determine the correlation of high academic stats and a better physician. "Better" is a subjective word (as in "better in what ??") But I think there is a high correlation of high academic stats and the COMPETENCY of the physician. MCAT, USMLE, undegrad GPA, med school GPA are all the objective, transparent, and fair metrics to measure the competency of the doctor-in-training. We do not want to just rely subjective on just letters of rec, races, backgrounds, etc to judge a candidate.

Again, you might potentially become a "better" or competent physician with low stats of undergrad GPAs and/or MCAT. But that is not the point.

The point is, imho, many URMs are unfairly taking the seats of many other qualified candidates. URMs or not you all have to earn your spot in medical school and residency training fairly like ALL other candidate, going through the same process and under the same rules/treatments. If you want a spot in medical schools, plese show that you are a better candidates in all admission categories including the MCAT and undergrad GPAs than the next guy/gal. This is just fairness !! Metrics such as the MCAT and undergrad GPA ensure a fair game to all candidate to medical schools.

as for increasing diversity of the medical field, I do not think it should be done on the expense of academic and admission standards (lowered) and fairness to all students. America is the land of EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES, NOT the land of ENTITLEMENT (at least that is what our founding fathers intended to). Many pre-med students of ALL RACES come from disadvantage backgrounds, not only URMs. Regardless of races, we should help all to enter the race to college (or medical school) admission and job training on equal and level playing fields and subject all to the same rules of the game. Disadvantaged students or URMs can be helped/assisted with special assisting programs in terms of money and scholarships to enter the game on the same levels as other students. But let them ALL earn their school admission and jobs on their own merits and hard work and compete fairly under the same rules and standards as others.



As all other pre-med students, I am informed alright, mind you, about this URMs situation. I think it is unfair to all of us, including many URMs who are excellent students with great undegrad GPAs and MCATs.

This preferential treatment in admission also creates the sense of entitlement among many URM students. In fact, I have come across posts where the student/poster asked for people's opinions on what to to do bc he/she got low undergrad GPA and MCAT. When many told him/her to retake the MCAT and improve his/her GPA, the reply was like,


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/i-am-an-icu-nurse-with-low-mcat-score.1115476/#post-16061406


----

I really do not want to hijack this thread as the topic is not about URM's admission to medical schools. I did invite people who disagree with me to debate/discuss this matter in PM (and/or different threads). But my invite does not mean to give you a license to insult me in PM with language like this,




if you want to insult me, I do invite me to do that IN PUBLIC !!!!

The purpose of medical education is not to admit the best physicians, but rather the ones that are most suited to provide care to a given school's target populations. Research has clearly shown that minorities are far more likely to practice in underserved areas, thus making minority physicians a major component of many schools meeting their mission.

Numbers aren't all that makes a good physician.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm a re-applicant for 2015 cycle. I have not received all of my results yet (about 4 schools left.. but highly unlikely that I would get an II from them) but I am feeling this cycle again has no luck for me. I only had one II so far from my in-state school, which I was rejected a few days ago.

First time applied (2014 cycle)
The main reason I got rejected was because I applied so late. I ended up not finishing the secondaries for the majority of schools (only applied to about 5 schools) that I applied. I did not know that it would put me in a "re-applicant" category the next cycle. Stupid mistake....
undergrad one of top UCs
GPA 3.74 (lowest grade B with molecular bio major, no re-takes or withdrawals)
MCAT 31 (BS 11 VR 9 PS 12)
200 hrs of volunteering
1 publication in physical chem journal (second author) during high school
2 weeks of shadowing in another country
3 months of research (summer) experience during undergrad - got recommendation
LORs from two professors (barely knows me.. but I think they are OK ones.)

Second time (2015 cycle)
applied 20 schools.. probably not getting II because of my way-too-low verbal score for the retake (it's my second language... to make an excuse..) I hoped that my English grades might make it up.. but I guess not.
MCAT 34 (BS 14 VR 6 PS 14)
besides the previous ECs.. I added on
100+ more hrs of volunteering
3 months of shadowing and assisting in OB/GYN clinic (7 hours a week) - got recommendation
work experience of teaching high school kids with SAT II sciences

I just need advices on applying for the third time with my stats.... Is applying the third time gonna put me in a big disadvantage? Is it worth a shot? and if I should give it another shot, what do you think I should do (EMT? CNA? Research?) to make my app better? I'm thinking of doing research possibly because I would probably go into research if i fail the third time... (really need to make a plan B now..) Should I re-take the MCAT? Should I apply this coming cycle again? or should i wait one year doing other things (probably working)?

If you are against re-applying, what are the good career options for a person like me (who wanted to go to med school but things didn't work out)? I'm sure I will pursue something in science cuz its the only thing i am good at.. Research? Other health professions?

Any comments, thoughts, suggestions.... ANYTHING.. would be appreciated. Thanks.

You are only a reapplicant to those schools which you previously applied. Try branching out to different schools to maximize your chances of admission. Given your stats, you'll probably get in somewhere.

 

[oldstock]

The purpose of medical education is not to admit the best physicians, but rather the ones that are most suited to provide care to a given school's target populations.

I have to disagree with you on this.

Regardless your saying of the purpose of medical education as above is, you CANNOT violate the rights, liberties and chances of any people who want to pursue medical school education. That is, you can do what you want to as long as you do not infringe or violate the rights, liberties and chances of others.

Research has clearly shown that minorities are far more likely to practice in underserved areas, thus making minority physicians a major component of many schools meeting their mission.

Numbers aren't all that makes a good physician.

research or not, the current preferential policy/treatment for URMs in medical school admission violates one of the most fundamental principle of this country, that is fairness and equality to all.

those researches/studies are imho, irrelevant. To tackle the problem of underserved areas, there are many solutions that do not violate the principle of fairness and equality to all. Providing more incentives like increased salary, lower taxes, forgiving student loans, etc to attract more physicians to serve in underserved areas are some I could think of.

Again, trying/attempting to solve the problems of lacking physician services in underserved areas is a very noble cause and worth doing. But doing that by allowing and giving preferential treatments to URMs in medical school admission and training is just wrong and unfair to the rest of students/applicants. There is clearly no fairness and equality to ALL in medical school admission and training !!


---

U.S. Bill of Rights

"Amendment 14

Civil rights


Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

http://www.ushistory.org/documents/amendments.htm#amend14


according to the current URMs policy on medical schools admission, not all US Citizens are the same and/or treated the same.


-----

U.S. Department of Justice Civil Rights Division
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Office of the Assistant Attorney General
Washington, D.C. 20530
Phone: (202) 514-2151
TDD: (202) 514-0716
Additional Contact Information: http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/mgmtndx.htm
E-Mail: Contact individual department, as listed at Civil Rights Section Home Pages
Website: http://www.usdoj.gov/crt


Agency Information/Mission: The Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice was established in 1957 following enactment of the first civil rights statutes since Reconstruction. The Division is the primary institution within the federal government responsible for enforcing federal statutes prohibiting discrimination on the basis of race, sex, handicap, religion, and national origin. The Division enforces the laws prohibiting discrimination in education, employment, credit, housing, public accommodations and facilities, voting, and certain federally funded and conducted programs. In addition, the Division prosecutes actions under several criminal civil rights statutes which were designed to preserve personal liberties and safety. The Division is responsible for coordinating the civil rights enforcement efforts of federal agencies whose programs are covered by Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended, and assists federal agencies in identifying and removing discriminatory provisions in their policies and programs.


Frequently Asked Questions About Employment Discrimination


Disability Rights Section Home Page
The primary goal of the Disability Rights Section is to achieve equal opportunity for people with disabilities in the United States by implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), through enforcement, certification, regulatory, coordination, and technical assistance activities, as required by the ADA.


Employment Litigation Section
The Employment Litigation Section enforces Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - the federal civil rights law prohibiting employment discrimination on the basis of race, sex, religion and national origin - with respect to state and local government employers.


Office of Special Counsel for Immigration-Related Unfair Employment Practices (OSC)
OSC investigates and prosecutes employers charged with national origin and citizenship status discrimination, as well as document abuse and retaliation under the antidiscrimination provision of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA).



U.S. Department of Labor
Frances Perkins Building
200 Constitution Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20210


Phone: (866) 4-USA-DOL
TTY: (877) 889-5627
E-Mail: See DOL E-Mail Topics for further information
Website: www.dol.gov


Agency Information/Mission: The Department of Labor fosters and promotes the welfare of the job seekers, wage earners, and retirees of the United States by improving their working conditions, advancing their opportunities for profitable employment, protecting their retirement and health care benefits, helping employers find workers, strengthening free collective bargaining, and tracking changes in employment, prices, and other national economic measurements. In carrying out this mission, the Department administers a variety of Federal labor laws including those that guarantee workers' rights to safe and healthful working conditions; a minimum hourly wage and overtime pay; freedom from employment discrimination; unemployment insurance; and other income support.


Summary of the Major Laws of the Department of Labor
Employment Laws Assistance
Workers Information Page
ELaws: Employment Law Assistance for Workers and Small Businesses
Wage and Hour Division Home Page

http://www.workplacefairness.org/federalagencies

 

[Mad Jack]

I have to disagree with you on this.

Regardless your saying of the purpose of medical education as above is, you CANNOT violate the rights, liberties and chances of any people who want to pursue medical school education. That is, you can do what you want to as long as you do not infringe or violate the rights, liberties and chances of others.






research or not, the current preferential policy/treatment for URMs in medical school admission violates one of the most fundamental principle of this country, that is fairness and equality to all.

those researches/studies are imho, irrelevant. To tackle the problem of underserved areas, there are many solutions that do not violate the principle of fairness and equality to all. Providing more incentives like increased salary, lower taxes, forgiving student loans, etc to attract more physicians to serve in underserved areas are some I could think of.

Again, trying/attempting to solve the problems of lacking physician services in underserved areas is a very noble cause and worth doing. But doing that by allowing and giving preferential treatments to URMs in medical school admission and training is just wrong and unfair to the rest of students/applicants. There is clearly no fairness and equality to ALL in medical school admission and training !!


---

U.S. Bill of Rights

"Amendment 14

Civil rights


Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

http://www.ushistory.org/documents/amendments.htm#amend14


according to the current URMs on medical schools admission, not all US Citizens are the same and/or treated the same.


-----

U.S. Department of Justice Civil Rights Division
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Office of the Assistant Attorney General
Washington, D.C. 20530
Phone: (202) 514-2151
TDD: (202) 514-0716
Additional Contact Information: http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/mgmtndx.htm
E-Mail: Contact individual department, as listed at Civil Rights Section Home Pages
Website: http://www.usdoj.gov/crt


Agency Information/Mission: The Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice was established in 1957 following enactment of the first civil rights statutes since Reconstruction. The Division is the primary institution within the federal government responsible for enforcing federal statutes prohibiting discrimination on the basis of race, sex, handicap, religion, and national origin. The Division enforces the laws prohibiting discrimination in education, employment, credit, housing, public accommodations and facilities, voting, and certain federally funded and conducted programs. In addition, the Division prosecutes actions under several criminal civil rights statutes which were designed to preserve personal liberties and safety. The Division is responsible for coordinating the civil rights enforcement efforts of federal agencies whose programs are covered by Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended, and assists federal agencies in identifying and removing discriminatory provisions in their policies and programs.


Frequently Asked Questions About Employment Discrimination


Disability Rights Section Home Page
The primary goal of the Disability Rights Section is to achieve equal opportunity for people with disabilities in the United States by implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), through enforcement, certification, regulatory, coordination, and technical assistance activities, as required by the ADA.


Employment Litigation Section
The Employment Litigation Section enforces Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - the federal civil rights law prohibiting employment discrimination on the basis of race, sex, religion and national origin - with respect to state and local government employers.


Office of Special Counsel for Immigration-Related Unfair Employment Practices (OSC)
OSC investigates and prosecutes employers charged with national origin and citizenship status discrimination, as well as document abuse and retaliation under the antidiscrimination provision of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA).



U.S. Department of Labor
Frances Perkins Building
200 Constitution Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20210


Phone: (866) 4-USA-DOL
TTY: (877) 889-5627
E-Mail: See DOL E-Mail Topics for further information
Website: www.dol.gov


Agency Information/Mission: The Department of Labor fosters and promotes the welfare of the job seekers, wage earners, and retirees of the United States by improving their working conditions, advancing their opportunities for profitable employment, protecting their retirement and health care benefits, helping employers find workers, strengthening free collective bargaining, and tracking changes in employment, prices, and other national economic measurements. In carrying out this mission, the Department administers a variety of Federal labor laws including those that guarantee workers' rights to safe and healthful working conditions; a minimum hourly wage and overtime pay; freedom from employment discrimination; unemployment insurance; and other income support.


Summary of the Major Laws of the Department of Labor
Employment Laws Assistance
Workers Information Page
ELaws: Employment Law Assistance for Workers and Small Businesses
Wage and Hour Division Home Page

http://www.workplacefairness.org/federalagencies

The purpose of medical schools is fulfillment of their mission. Imagine, for instance, that med school were a circus. The applicants are people that are trying to fulfill a given role. You could have a thousand people applying that can tumble on the high wire, but you can't hire nothing but high wire tumblers, regardless of how good they are, because you won't have a complete act for your audience. You need a mix of different performers to create a show that can entertain everyone.

Stats aren't all that matters- if they were, then Asians would probably fill >80% of medical school seats, as, on paper, their applications tend to be the highest caliber. However, this does not occur, as "intangibles" that lead to applicants being a better fit for schools come into play. One of those intangibles is race, but there are many, many more.

 

[oldstock]

The purpose of medical schools is fulfillment of their mission. Imagine, for instance, that med school were a circus. The applicants are people that are trying to fulfill a given role. You could have a thousand people applying that can tumble on the high wire, but you can't hire nothing but high wire tumblers, regardless of how good they are, because you won't have a complete act for your audience. You need a mix of different performers to create a show that can entertain everyone.

Stats aren't all that matters- if they were, then Asians would probably fill >80% of medical school seats, as, on paper, their applications tend to be the highest caliber. However, this does not occur, as "intangibles" that lead to applicants being a better fit for schools come into play. One of those intangibles is race, but there are many, many more.

whatever you want to say or do, you need to remember that there must be fairness, equality, liberties and justice for ALL !!!!

Whatever rules you want to use for med school admission, ALL candidates should be subjected to the same rules !!!!

as the current medical school admission policy for URM goes, it is indeed a circus (no need to imagine). In fact, why schools are still asking URMs for the MCAT ?? low GPA or low MCAT they got in anyway... 20-22 MCAT got in schools like U of Minnesota and Mayo with scholarships... what a joke !!

 

[Mad Jack]

whatever you want to say or do, you need to remember that there must be fairness, equality, liberties and justice for ALL !!!!

Whatever rules you want to use for med school admission, ALL candidates should be subjected to the same rules !!!!

as the current medical school admission policy for URM goes, it is indeed a circus (no need to imagine). In fact, why schools are still asking them for the MCAT ?? low GPA or low MCAT they got in anyway... 20-22 MCAT and got in schools like U of Minnesota and Mayo... what a joke !!

They are subjected to the same rules, those being "Do you fulfill our mission or not?" Grades and MCAT are a way of differentiating between candidates that are equally qualified to fulfill the school's mission, while intangibles determine whether one can fulfill their mission or not. No school's mission is, "to take the highest scoring, highest GPA candidates possible."

 

[oldstock]

They are subjected to the same rules, those being "Do you fulfill our mission or not?" Grades and MCAT are a way of differentiating between candidates that are equally qualified to fulfill the school's mission, while intangibles determine whether one can fulfill their mission or not. No school's mission is, "to take the highest scoring, highest GPA candidates possible."

I do not see how you can say all pre-med candidates/applicants are subjected to the same rules here with the current med school admission policy for URMs. Asking, "do you fulfill our mission or not?" is not a rule or fairness. It is just a way for you to let in anyone you want, to give preferential treatments to any group you want.

Truth is, this is just discrimination in education !!

when your "mission" (whatever that is) violates the rights, liberties, and chances of others, this is not right. In fact, it is illegal according to our highest law of the land, i.e. the Constitution / Bill of Rights.

This is not the America our founding fathers fought and wanted to build for all of us !!

---

I know you and many might want to play more "political correct" (and what you guys are saying there is not even correct imho). But I am not going to argue anymore. IMHO, this matter is clear like day and night already. Everyone can see for themselves.

Have a great Sunday !!

 

[Mad Jack]

I do not see how you can say all pre-med candidates/applicants are subjected to the same rules here with the current med school admission policy for URMs. Asking, "do you fulfill our mission or not?" is not a rule or fairness. It is just a way for you to let in anyone you want, to give preferential treatments to any group you want.

Truth is, this is just discrimination in education !!

when your "mission" (whatever that is) violates the rights, liberties, and chances of others, this is not right. In fact, it is illegal according to our highest law of the land, i.e. the Constitution / Bill of Rights.

This is not the America our founding fathers fought and wanted to build for all of us !!

---

I know you and many might want to play more "political correct" (and what you guys are saying there is not even correct imho). But I am not going to argue anymore. IMHO, this matter is clear like day and night already. Everyone can see for themselves.

Have a great Sunday !!

Missions are what medical schools are about, not "fairness." They're not required to accept people without regard to intangibles any more than Hooters is required to hire waitresses based on their personalities. You don't win by virtue of high numbers, you win by virtue of having the whole package that will best serve the medical system as a whole.

 

[oldstock]

Missions are what medical schools are about, not "fairness." They're not required to accept people without regard to intangibles any more than Hooters is required to hire waitresses based on their personalities. You don't win by virtue of high numbers, you win by virtue of having the whole package that will best serve the medical system as a whole.

so you are saying that other students (that are not URMs) w high GPAs and MCAT DO NOT have "the whole package" ???? URMs must have the rest of their applications so "impressive" (again a subjective word, as in "impressive how?? to whom ??") so that it makes up for the low undegrad GPAs and MCAT. Have you heard of quotas ??


anyway, you have prob never heard of discrimination in education and in employment. Whatever rules / tangibles or intangibles, you have to treat all the candidates the same under the same process / rules. I can tell you that med schools and Hooters are both required to follow the laws, esp. the highest law of the land, i.e. the Constitution / Bill of Rights. Do some research or google and you see what I mean.


You can also stop and listen to yourself a moment. Close your eyes, forget about races or URMs, and just listen to yourself again. Do you see have fairness, equality, liberties and justice to ALL in medical school admission and training ??


I am out of here... lol

 

[Mad Jack]

so you are saying that other students (that are not URMs) w high GPAs and MCAT DO NOT have "the whole package" ???? URMs must have the rest of their applications so "impressive" (again a subjective word, as in "impressive how?? to whom ??") so that it makes up for the low undegrad GPAs and MCAT. Have you heard of quotas ??


anyway, you have prob never heard of discrimination in education and in employment. You have to treat all the candidates the same under the same process / rules. I can tell you that med schools and Hooters are both required to follow the laws, esp. the highest law of the land, i.e. the Constitution / Bill of Rights. Do some research or google and you see what I mean.


You can also stop and listen to yourself a moment. Close your eyes, forget about races or URMs, and just listen to yourself again. Do you see have fairness, equality, liberties and justice to ALL in medical school admission and training ??


I am out of here... lol

Is high GPA/high MCAT upper class white dude going to work in the ghetto serving the underserved? Statistically, it is unlikely. Minorities are far more likely to serve in such areas, and thus recruiting them helps fulfill a school's mission. That results in bonus points being added to their applications, as they are, statistically, more likely to provide care to populations that require it. Admissions are subjective, not objective- schools can take whomever they want for whatever reasons they choose, so long as they don't actively say "we're not taking X group of people," just as employers can generally hire and fire whomever they choose, largely for whatever reasons they choose, so long as they don't have a strict written policy of not taking certain groups or firing people for certain protected characteristics. For the same reason that a nonprofit working with inner city children will most likely hire a member of the local community that is often of the same race as the group that they will be working with, medical schools are most likely to accept members of certain communities in the hopes that they will both be able to more effectively work within those communities, and that they might one day return to serve them.

 

[oldstock]

dang... you are not letting me go...

Is high GPA/high MCAT upper class white dude going to work in the ghetto serving the underserved? Statistically, it is unlikely.

Yes, he is going to. IF you are providing enough incentives.

This also applies to white / black/ yellow / blue/ red.

Minorities are far more likely to serve in such areas, and thus recruiting them helps fulfill a school's mission. That results in bonus points being added to their applications, as they are, statistically, more likely to provide care to populations that require it. Admissions are subjective, not objective-

this is not absolute or impossible. Many other countries, e.g. England, France, Germany, etc. basing their college (and med school) admission entirely on your scores on your entrance exams. (standardized, i.e. everyone is taking the same test). Whoever scores high enough gets in regardless of his/her race, LORs, background, or BS etc.

the point is, if you want to make college admission entirely objective you can.

Transparency and objectiveness ensure fairness and equality to ALL !!


if you want to be subjective, forget the MCAT or GPAs. Just say it out loud that you want to only accept some particular students or groups or whoever you want, regardless of metrics, and save / cut the BS. Everyone knows what you are doing here. And this is discrimination and illegal !!

schools can take whomever they want for whatever reasons they choose, so long as they don't actively say "we're not taking X group of people," just as employers can generally hire and fire whomever they choose, largely for whatever reasons they choose, so long as they don't have a strict written policy of not taking certain groups or firing people for certain protected characteristics.

again, subjective or not, written or unwritten, whatever rules you have, you have to apply to ALL candidates / everyone. When you do not apply to ALL, this is discrimination.

But you still do not realize this is discrimination right ?? I know they are playing with the laws and might get away with it for now but that does not make what they are doing here right.

Sadly, I, myself alone, cannot do anything meaningful for a change here. But sooner or later, as more people are aware of this situation and realizing what they are doing here, I bet you someone is / are going to pay for this illegal and unethical practice dearly.

For the same reason that a nonprofit working with inner city children will most likely hire a member of the local community that is often of the same race as the group that they will be working with, medical schools are most likely to accept members of certain communities in the hopes that they will both be able to more effectively work within those communities, and that they might one day return to serve them.

yes, you are right about this here: "in the hopes"

how about making it real and certain ?? Restrict the medical licenses of those URM doctors to only practicing medicine in underserved areas / communities. They got preferential treatments to medical schools and training because you and med schools think they will come back to serve their communities right ?? Benefits come with responsibilities. Restrict their licenses. Put it in laws to make sure they serve the target populations / communities which they purposely and preferentially got their medical education and training for.

If they want unlimited medical licenses, they have and should earn their spots in med schools / training like everyone else

----

on another note, let me give you an example of the "whole package" you mention about URMs that makes them so much better a physician from this very thread here,

I got accepted with a 24 MCAT BS-10 PS-8 VR-6 and a 3.8ish GPA to an MD school. I think you're just not applying to the right schools. For some ECs try getting involved with the community, for example I coached a baseball team since I graduated high school at the local boy's and girl's club. Ecs shouldn't be all healthcare man, I mean part of being a doctor is interacting with the community. You have to show that you actually enjoy that. I had 7 interviews when I applied, I had to start canceling them because I already was accepted and didn't care to interview. But in all my interviews, I remember resorting back to the kids I coached. I would talk about them and how I influenced them, but also how they influenced me. Medical school interviews (and secondaries as well) aren't all about medicine! And I don't mean going to your local red cross shelter and serving homeless people chili. Do something meaningful to you. I love baseball and I enjoy watching my team go from nothing to league champs.

When choosing schools, always research how many out of state applicants matriculate.
use this:
http://medical-schools.findthebest.com

If you didn't get many secondaries applying to 20 schools, it's because you didn't research them and see which schools take out of state applicants. Obviously you don't want to apply to public schools who only take their in-state residents.
You have the scores to get into medical school. No need to retake the MCAT in my opinion.

I think for you to get accepted, you HAVE TO get involved with your community. Most of my ECs were community things.

Applying a third time will not hurt you. It should show devotion—it'll look rather persevering.

I don't know your whole story. Did you get help with correcting your PS? do you have a teacher review your secondary responses? All that matters. Are you getting interviews? If not, well then you know your secondaries or Primary needs changes. You have the grades, the educational ECs and the volunteering (although I'm not sure what you volunteered with). Maybe you should get help writing your responses and essays, and choosing which schools to apply to.

Like I said, I got in with a 24 MCAT, I see no reason for you to not get in. I really think it's your sec. apps, schools chosen, and primary. But I'm just guessing—I could be completely wrong. I don't mean anything to be perceived as offensive either.

Good luck

while your story above is encouraging, I think 24 MCAT is low to be admitted to a medical school, even when it is accompanied by a 3.8 GPA. Of course I do not know your whole story. I do think there must be more to your story than what is said above.

but I agree the OP should have been admitted to med school already.

24 MCAT 3.8 GPA baseball team coach = 7 med school interviews = accepted to great schools like U of Minnesota, Mayo. wow wow wow.

Sorry that sounds really extraordinary so I looked at your posts and I think this may be the hint,




imho, if you are indeed Hispanic, your advice might not be appropriate for the OP, who might not be in the same applicant category.

and compare to other pre-meds like the OP here, who are struggling to get secondaries w stats like below,

I'm a re-applicant for 2015 cycle. I have not received all of my results yet (about 4 schools left.. but highly unlikely that I would get an II from them) but I am feeling this cycle again has no luck for me. I only had one II so far from my in-state school, which I was rejected a few days ago.

First time applied (2014 cycle)
The main reason I got rejected was because I applied so late. I ended up not finishing the secondaries for the majority of schools (only applied to about 5 schools) that I applied. I did not know that it would put me in a "re-applicant" category the next cycle. Stupid mistake....
undergrad one of top UCs
GPA 3.74 (lowest grade B with molecular bio major, no re-takes or withdrawals)
MCAT 31 (BS 11 VR 9 PS 12)
200 hrs of volunteering
1 publication in physical chem journal (second author) during high school
2 weeks of shadowing in another country
3 months of research (summer) experience during undergrad - got recommendation
LORs from two professors (barely knows me.. but I think they are OK ones.)

Second time (2015 cycle)
applied 20 schools.. probably not getting II because of my way-too-low verbal score for the retake (it's my second language... to make an excuse..) I hoped that my English grades might make it up.. but I guess not.
MCAT 34 (BS 14 VR 6 PS 14)
besides the previous ECs.. I added on
100+ more hrs of volunteering
3 months of shadowing and assisting in OB/GYN clinic (7 hours a week) - got recommendation
work experience of teaching high school kids with SAT II sciences

I just need advices on applying for the third time with my stats.... Is applying the third time gonna put me in a big disadvantage? Is it worth a shot? and if I should give it another shot, what do you think I should do (EMT? CNA? Research?) to make my app better? I'm thinking of doing research possibly because I would probably go into research if i fail the third time... (really need to make a plan B now..) Should I re-take the MCAT? Should I apply this coming cycle again? or should i wait one year doing other things (probably working)?

If you are against re-applying, what are the good career options for a person like me (who wanted to go to med school but things didn't work out)? I'm sure I will pursue something in science cuz its the only thing i am good at.. Research? Other health professions?

Any comments, thoughts, suggestions.... ANYTHING.. would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[occams_razor]

Personally, I will try my best not to be treated by a URM doctor, because I think most of them are underqualified and lesser students compared to the general pool. I want the best doctors I can get to treat me !! I am sure God does not give me a URM status on my life and spare me when the time comes

But enjoy medical school !!

Wow. This is probably one of the most racist things I've ever read on SDN.
What's even worse is that oldstock has no idea how this is problematic.

 

[occams_razor]

I do not see how you can say all pre-med candidates/applicants are subjected to the same rules here with the current med school admission policy for URMs. Asking, "do you fulfill our mission or not?" is not a rule or fairness. It is just a way for you to let in anyone you want, to give preferential treatments to any group you want.

Truth is, this is just discrimination in education !!

when your "mission" (whatever that is) violates the rights, liberties, and chances of others, this is not right. In fact, it is illegal according to our highest law of the land, i.e. the Constitution / Bill of Rights.

This is not the America our founding fathers fought and wanted to build for all of us !!

I hope you bring these thoughts up at a med school interview. Then come back and tell us how it went.

 

[oldanddone]

Is high GPA/high MCAT upper class white dude going to work in the ghetto serving the underserved? Statistically, it is unlikely. Minorities are far more likely to serve in such areas, and thus recruiting them helps fulfill a school's mission. That results in bonus points being added to their applications, as they are, statistically, more likely to provide care to populations that require it. Admissions are subjective, not objective- schools can take whomever they want for whatever reasons they choose, so long as they don't actively say "we're not taking X group of people," just as employers can generally hire and fire whomever they choose, largely for whatever reasons they choose, so long as they don't have a strict written policy of not taking certain groups or firing people for certain protected characteristics. For the same reason that a nonprofit working with inner city children will most likely hire a member of the local community that is often of the same race as the group that they will be working with, medical schools are most likely to accept members of certain communities in the hopes that they will both be able to more effectively work within those communities, and that they might one day return to serve them.

I agree with selection based on ability to create equity in healthcare during practice. Some of the caveats: 1. people should not get siloed to working in particular areas/with particular people. it should be something that the whole group addresses 2. people should not take a remuneration cut in order to do this good work 3. people should not have ended up in primary care/working with the marginalized due to discrimination in the clinical years, or other ways to marginalize members of the medical community. 4. selecting based on race/place of origin alone is not the best way to get folks to these places in terms of balancing inequities. the stats seem to say that only half of urm actually 'give back'. that shouldn't necessarily be the reason in the first place for urm policy (whereas previously it was about equity in terms of opportunity, now it seems to be a utilitarian 'who will do the less reimbursed, more difficult work'. aamc themselves now talk about NP as the next way this might be handled - but NP as well does not tend to choose the less reimbursed, more difficult work on the whole.

Many other countries, e.g. England, France, Germany, etc. basing their college (and med school) admission entirely on your scores on your entrance exams. (standardized, i.e. everyone is taking the same test). Whoever scores high enough gets in regardless of his/her race, LORs, background, or BS etc.

that's not true about england. they have a mandate to broaden access to higher education, as they feel this will advance the whole country's workforce and generally uplift the whole economy. med schools have been responding. their policies are often more geared to economic issues and how race intersects with that (these things intersect).

http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d918
http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7653/1111
http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7455/1541

 

[oldanddone]

to OP, find some great teaching on how to get that verbal issue under control. gl!

 

[oldstock]

Wow. This is probably one of the most racist things I've ever read on SDN.
What's even worse is that oldstock has no idea how this is problematic.

In the post you quote me, I said the reason I did not want to be treated by a URM doctor was that I think a URM doctor is less qualified and competent compared to the general pool of doctor and I want to be treated by the best qualified and competent doctor. Can you explain how do you think that is racist ??

Please do explain and elaborate on that "racist" accusation and "how this is problematic" of yours and discuss this matter intelligently instead of playing the "race" card in order to try to shut other people up.

I hope you bring these thoughts up at a med school interview. Then come back and tell us how it went.

I can tell you that I will discuss this one intelligently when I have the right chance. However, I will not discuss this matter when I am not in a position to speak freely.

 

[oldstock]

I agree with selection based on ability to create equity in healthcare during practice. Some of the caveats: 1. people should not get siloed to working in particular areas/with particular people. it should be something that the whole group addresses 2. people should not take a remuneration cut in order to do this good work 3. people should not have ended up in primary care/working with the marginalized due to discrimination in the clinical years, or other ways to marginalize members of the medical community. 4. selecting based on race/place of origin alone is not the best way to get folks to these places in terms of balancing inequities. the stats seem to say that only half of urm actually 'give back'. that shouldn't necessarily be the reason in the first place for urm policy (whereas previously it was about equity in terms of opportunity, now it seems to be a utilitarian 'who will do the less reimbursed, more difficult work'. aamc themselves now talk about NP as the next way this might be handled - but NP as well does not tend to choose the less reimbursed, more difficult work on the whole.

excellent points !!

that's not true about england. they have a mandate to broaden access to higher education, as they feel this will advance the whole country's workforce and generally uplift the whole economy. med schools have been responding. their policies are often more geared to economic issues and how race intersects with that (these things intersect).

http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d918
http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7653/1111
http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7455/1541

@Mad Jack 's was saying "Admissions are subjective, not objective". My examples of England, France, Germany's college admission are to say that it is not true that college (or med school) admission is all subjective.

My point is, admission can be subjective or objective or anything in between depending on what we want it to be.

 

[occams_razor]

In the post you quote me, I said the reason I did not want to be treated by a URM doctor was that I think a URM doctor is less qualified and competent compared to the general pool of doctor and I want to be treated by the best qualified and competent doctor. Can you explain how do you think that is racist ??

Please do explain and elaborate on that "racist" accusation and "how this is problematic" of yours and discuss this matter intelligently instead of playing the "race" card in order to try to shut other people up.

You are literally saying that you will not be treated by any doctor who is an underrepresented minority because you think that they are all "less qualified and competent". Why don't you try telling that to my friend at Harvard who got a 38 on his MCAT and had a 4.0 GPA - who also happens to be a URM. If you don't just intrinsically realize that there is something wrong with this way of thinking, saying that all URMs are less competent - I am not going to waste my time trying to educate you. Other posters have tried that already to no avail. Also, are you planning on asking every doctor you see what their MCAT score and GPA was? It's ridiculous that you think these factors are what make the best qualified and most competent doctor.

 

[oldstock]

You are literally saying that you will not be treated by any doctor who is an underrepresented minority because you think that they are all "less qualified and competent". Why don't you try telling that to my friend at Harvard who got a 38 on his MCAT and had a 4.0 GPA - who also happens to be a URM. If you don't just intrinsically realize that there is something wrong with this way of thinking, saying that all URMs are less competent - I am not going to waste my time trying to educate you. Other posters have tried that already to no avail. Also, are you planning on asking every doctor you see what their MCAT score and GPA was? It's ridiculous that you think these factors are what make the best qualified and most competent doctor.

I never ask you to educate me. I need you to clarify and explain yourself when you are accusing me of being "racist".

You owe me that when you are accusing me "racist" in your posts. Please save the education for yourself.


But now you seem to be putting words in my mouth so I have to reply.

I said this,

Personally, I will try my best not to be treated by a URM doctor, because I think most of them are underqualified and lesser students compared to the general pool. I want the best doctors I can get to treat me !! I am sure God does not give me a URM status on my life and spare me when the time comes

where did I say ALL ?? are you putting words in my mouth ?? If that is not the case, please learn how to read and quote other people's saying.

I have never said ALL URM are underqualified or incompetent. I said above in my previous posts (obviously that you did not read) that I know many URMs that are excellent students and highly competent. Like your friend who is a URM w a MCAT score of 38 and 4.0 GPA.

But if all or most URMs are like your friend, it would be wonderful and there is certainly no need for URM admission policy, wouldn't it ??



The fact is URM admission policy is there to give preferential treatment and favorable admission to URM. It is there to let in applicants with lesser stats than others. Everyone knows it.

And this is wrong on many fronts. It violates the rights and chances of other people to pursue medical education and training. It sacrifices the academic standard and quality for admission.




Did you see the posts where I quote above where the posters themselves admitted that they got in medical schools or think they should be admitted to medical schools with lesser stats than others ?? You prob did not.

Your chances are almost nil of getting into an MD school. Even DO school will be difficult. Howard and the like have lower scores because they largely focus on disadvantaged black applicants (they are historically black medical colleges).

But that is what I am BLACK!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/i-am-an-icu-nurse-with-low-mcat-score.1115476/#post-16059964

I got accepted with a 24 MCAT BS-10 PS-8 VR-6 and a 3.8ish GPA to an MD school. I think you're just not applying to the right schools. For some ECs try getting involved with the community, for example I coached a baseball team since I graduated high school at the local boy's and girl's club. Ecs shouldn't be all healthcare man, I mean part of being a doctor is interacting with the community. You have to show that you actually enjoy that. I had 7 interviews when I applied, I had to start canceling them because I already was accepted and didn't care to interview. But in all my interviews, I remember resorting back to the kids I coached. I would talk about them and how I influenced them, but also how they influenced me. Medical school interviews (and secondaries as well) aren't all about medicine! And I don't mean going to your local red cross shelter and serving homeless people chili. Do something meaningful to you. I love baseball and I enjoy watching my team go from nothing to league champs.

When choosing schools, always research how many out of state applicants matriculate.
use this:
http://medical-schools.findthebest.com

If you didn't get many secondaries applying to 20 schools, it's because you didn't research them and see which schools take out of state applicants. Obviously you don't want to apply to public schools who only take their in-state residents.
You have the scores to get into medical school. No need to retake the MCAT in my opinion.

I think for you to get accepted, you HAVE TO get involved with your community. Most of my ECs were community things.

Applying a third time will not hurt you. It should show devotion—it'll look rather persevering.

this person above got in U of Minnesota, Mayo and many other medical schools.

24 MCAT 3.8 GPA baseball team coach = 7 med school interviews = accepted to great schools like U of Minnesota, Mayo. wow wow wow.

Sorry that sounds really extraordinary so I looked at your posts and I think this may be the hint,




imho, if you are indeed Hispanic, your advice might not be appropriate for the OP, who might not be in the same applicant category.

So when this URM policy is there to give preferential treatments in admission/training to URMs, most of them with lesser stats, should one trust that those URM grads are of the same competency and quality like the rest of the pool? I, for one, do not.

Thus, when I generally refuse a URM doctor, and it is based on merits, not on races.

Yes, if I could verify the credentials of the doctor and be sure that he/she earns those credentials on merits, I am happily to be treated by them any day.

Like you said, I just cannot go around and ask a doctor to verify his/her credentials that every time I see a doctor. But with technology these days, you can verify those credentials (ever heard of Google ??? LOL ) If I cannot verify, I will not be taking the chance to be treated by an incompetent doctor regardless of any race or background he/she is from. Esp. w my health and life is on the line. Esp not w the knowledge that most of those doctors are admitted to schools based on lesser stats than others.


So is that making me a "racist" ??



Is it true that this URM policy consistently gives preferential treatments in admission based on races and not merits ?? And of course you do not think this is racist at all, esp when it is working for your favor LOL

Please go and learn the definition of "racist"/"racism".

It is so funny how people like you are calling me "racist" while all I want is a merit-based admission policy for ALL people regardless of races and backgrounds.



Let me ask you again, is true that there are double standards in admission, one for URM and one for the rest ??

Whatever admission standards are there, MCAT or GPA or whatever, the same rules should be applied to ALL. When you are not applying the same rules to ALL, it is called discrimination.



My point is, URM admission policy unfairly favors URM on the expenses of other students/applicants.



What makes a qualified and competent doctor are another matter of debate. You seem not to believe in transparent and objective metrics. So please do tell me what you think should be used to judge or determine the competency and qualification of a doctor.



But I know people like you... So please save the BS for yourself !!




----

To other readers of this discussion,

Like I said above, I understand the intention of med schools' URM admission policy that is to address the physician shortage in underserved areas and increase diversity in the workplace. While I think the intention is great and noble and worth acting on, I do think that the current URM admission is the wrong way to try to achieve those two mentioned purposes. It is wrong because it is based on races and not on merits. It is wrong because it is of double standard. It is wrong because it sacrifices the academic standard and quality of the admission process. But most importantly, it is wrong because it violates the rights to pursue equal opportunity in medical education/training of other students/applicants by unfairly taking their spots to favor URMs.

If med schools want to help students from disadvantaged backgrounds (and this should be done regardless of races), I think they should offer special scholarships and assistant programs to help those students to compete on the SAME level that the rest of students do. The current URM admission policy is obviously unfair to ALL and esp to URM students who are working hard to obtain excellent stats themselves.

If med schools want to solve the physician shortage in underserved areas, they can encourage med school students from different background by offering (full) scholarship or free training for those who sign contracts to commit to serve in those targeted underserved areas. Same can be done to recruit qualified students of underrepresented in medicine.

My point is, there are so many other ways to achieve the two goals mentioned above without unfairly treatments or favoring any particular groups like the current URM admission policy.

We ALL deserve equal chances to pursue education and work without infringing on the rights and chances of others.

Let everyone earn their college/med school admission on their own merits. It is only fair and just to ALL !!

 

[oldanddone]

it's just that 'meritocracy' is oppressive in that racism does not make an equal playing field. 'meritocracy' is a myth.
the scores in undergrad and on mcat don't necessarily correlate to competence later on - multiple studies done on this one. therefore the scores are not looked at as be-all-and-end-all.
the scores in undergrad and on mcat are affected by systems of oppression, and are inherently biased (i.e. what they are trying to measure is not necessarily what they are measuring, which would be detrimental to basing a system of meritocracy on them). multiple studies done on this one too.
putting too much faith in the neutrality of marks and mcats, and as surrogate markers for competency is not great if about to insult a whole bunch of people on the basis of their skin colour by saying you won't accept them as your doctor. especially with all the data that they aren't neutral adn they are poor surrogates.

 

[jamcat]

You refuse care from doctors based on their race. That makes you a racist, by definition.

You can also argue that affirmative action policies are racist too, but any racism inherent to affirmative action policies is completely irrelevant to whether you are personally a racist.

 

[oldstock]

it's just that 'meritocracy' is oppressive in that racism does not make an equal playing field. 'meritocracy' is a myth.
the scores in undergrad and on mcat don't necessarily correlate to competence later on - multiple studies done on this one. therefore the scores are not looked at as be-all-and-end-all.
the scores in undergrad and on mcat are affected by systems of oppression, and are inherently biased (i.e. what they are trying to measure is not necessarily what they are measuring, which would be detrimental to basing a system of meritocracy on them). multiple studies done on this one too.
putting too much faith in the neutrality of marks and mcats, and as surrogate markers for competency is not great if about to insult a whole bunch of people on the basis of their skin colour by saying you won't accept them as your doctor. especially with all the data that they aren't neutral adn they are poor surrogates.

You are assuming a lot of things here....

Meritocracy is not a myth.

Let me give an example: Asian.

We all know that most of Asian students do belong to minority groups or come from very disadvantaged backgrounds in America. They sure are not playing on the same playing field as the majority of Americans.

Are many if not most of them experiencing racism and oppression too right now right here in America ?? A big YES.


But do you see most of them whine and claim the race card ?? No. They work hard and earn their places fair and square. No URM status and favor for them. No problem. They are trying harder to overcome those hardships/disadvantages by becoming the better /best workers or the better/best students.

Now you can ask why Asians are not underrepresented in medicine. In fact, they are disproportionally represented in medicine. Why ?? We all know that is because how highly they value education and the medical profession. Their own cultures and families encourage and support them to pursue medicine. But they earn their marks based on their own hard work and merits.

Would I refuse the care of an Asian doctor based on their skin color ?? Heck no. I know for sure most of them earn their marks on their own merits.


You want equal playing field ?? That can be done without the current URM policy.


I am not insulting anyone here. I am speaking facts. Is that true that URMs policy is to give preferential treatments and favors in admission and training to URMs, most with lesser stats than the rest of the student/applicant pool ??

To me lesser stats = highly chance that the students/doctors are not as qualified or competent as others.

If lesser stats in MCAT, GPA, or USMLE are unreliable and inherently biased, let's abolish the use of them. Let's base med school admission/medical residency-training on interviews and LORs or whatever but not grades and standardized test scores. Oh wait, most of Caribbean med schools have already done that lol

MCAT scores do correlate to passing and/or high scores on UMSL Step 1. Unless you are saying USMLE is not to measure the competency of the doctor-in-training.

Again, please do tell me what you think should be used to judge/measure/determine the competency and qualification of a doctor.

Also I have never said that MCAT and undergrad GPA should be an be all and end all. Whatever admission standards there are, they should be the same for ALL. The current URM policy is a double standard if you will, which is unfairly taking the spots of many other more qualified students/applicants to favor URMs.

You refuse care from doctors based on their race. That makes you a racist, by definition.

You can also argue that affirmative action policies are racist too, but any racism inherent to affirmative action policies is completely irrelevant to whether you are personally a racist.

racism is racism. What is racism ?? I think you already have an idea, i.e. "based on races". Is the current URM admission based on races ?? lol

I do not refuse care from doctors based on their races. I refused care from doctors who are the productions of the URM system which favors students w lesser stats than others, which very likely to produce incompetent doctors. I would not trust my health/life in the hands of incompetent doctors, regardless of races or backgrounds.

I am saying most URMs consistently admitted to med school w lesser stats, thus highly likely become incompetent doctors. Studies do show MCAT scores positively correlate with performance on USMLE (esp Step 1). USMLE is measuring the competency of the doctor-in-training, is it not ??

I based my decisions on merits while people like you repeatedly are trying put words in my mouth and calling me a "racist".

read this for your own info,

https://www.google.com/search?q=quota wrong supreme court&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


Funny in your own words you are saying above that there is racism in affirmative action and URMs and it is not relevant. Whatever LOL

 

[reapplicanthelpme2014]

Don't feed the troll.