this forum makes me doubt psych as a good career

[valentinoRossi]

I am changing careers from medicine to psychology (in hopes of getting a psyd) and was initially extremely enthusiastic about being a psychologist. I started taking classes (have completed intro, abnormal, physiological psych, intro to counseling, personality, developmental psych, and am currently in statistics & health psych) and really am enjoying my time learning. I already graduated from a top public university in 2010 (unc chapel hill) and am hoping to apply to psyd programs by the end of this year. I'm also a research assistant for a few studies in a lab for memory/cognition in older adults. I really love the field of psych....
until i come to these forums...
there is just so much negativity. I feel like people regret pursuing psych during their grad school years. I have read quite a bit about the lack of financial security...although all of the engineers i know who make similar salaries (70-85k) seem to be happy and satisfied. I rarely ever see threads about actual topics pertaining to psychology. Nobody ever has debates about interesting theories or opinions on which method of treatment they feel works best. All everyone does is bitch and moan, and it's starting to make me feel that i may be making a wrong choice. Perhaps i should stick with medicine? I mean where are the people who love what they do..the people who felt psychology was their calling? Where are the people that enjoy the hours of studying because they feel that priceless gratification of helping someone suffering from depression? Where are the REAL psychologists? The quirky witty smart funny and educated students who are fascinated with people's behavior and have a true genuine passion for helping those in need? Does all of this naive optimism simply wear off during grad school? It seems so ironic that this is precisely the field where professionals train and work to make people feel amazing, yet the professionals themselves seem tired, jaded, and empty.

We are in such a awesome field of study...with so much interesting history. Am I the only one who wishes I could sit in a session of the "Wednesday Psychological Society" with all the pioneers of psychology? Where has the passion gone? How the hell do we expect to ignite the passion in others when we regret our career choices?
sigh...rant over

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[Iwillheal]

Some have legit reasons to complain given the setting where they work and the salary, coworkers, workload, etc. Getting burned out in community settings is common enough. But some are just real SOBs making six figures in private practice but don't want competition, fearing market saturation, so they exaggerate and lie and try to make the situation look much worse than it is. Then there are the smaller number of members who just have high standards because they're exceptionally talented and could have been making 200-300k as a physicians or business person and so they question their career choice. Which they should, if they came into psych just to make money. If you make 70k and above, you really shouldn't be complaining about money. So many jobless people out there, so many willing to do any kind of thankless job just to provide for their family, it's just not right, I mean, where is the compassion? It's too bad that psychiatrists make 150k+. Is it worth constantly mentioning? At least they went to med school and underwent vigorous training. There are business people who make millions and some don't even have an MBA. Length of college education has nothing to do with how much money you "should" be making. Market is what determines what you're worth and how to value the services you can offer. You have a problem, go punch market in the face but don't complain here all the time.

 

[Qwerk]

Some of it, I think, is that people tend to post in forums when they have problems, not when things go right. You never hear anyone say, "I make a good salary and I have an interesting workday. WHAT SHOULD I DO?!"

But some are just real SOBs making six figures in private practice but don't want competition, fearing market saturation, so they exaggerate and lie and try to make the situation look much worse than it is.

No need to come up with conspiracy theories. This is the internet. If there weren't a lot of complaining, I would be worried.

 

[paramour]

I had a client whose goal was "to be happy" (because he was not). He knew he would reach this goal if he got married, had some more kids, and found a job. What kind of job? Any job that paid him money and allowed him to support his family, so he wouldn't need to resort to further criminal activity. This is actually descriptive of quite a few clients...

These guys are worried about happiness solved by finding any ole' job, so they stay out of jail/prison. And here we are dickering about $82k versus a six-figure income (among other things). Yes, some of these issues are legitimate. Others? Folks are going to find some reason to complain regardless of their situation (who's going to listen to you talk about how wonderful your life is all the time?)

Hell, I've complained over the years myself; I still enjoy what I do, however. I can't complain around here or I'd be lynched. Seriously.

 

[Iwillheal]

No need to come up with conspiracy theories...

But they're inconceivably fun!

 

[Pragma]

Well internet forums do lend themselves towards complaining...keep that in mind.

But psychology also has some serious systemic issues compared to other professions. For example, the internship crisis. People complaining on this message board has helped facilitate grassroots action. Check out mcparents "occupy" thread.

Some of us also want to paint a clear picture to people looking to join the field. It isn't as great of a situation as many marketers would have you believe.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I think another part of the issue, at least in my experience, is that more people in clinical psych vs. other academic fields seriously considered medical school as a training/career path. Thus, rather than comparing ourselves to other Ph.D. fields/professionals, we often default to looking at medicine (and particularly physicians). I ran into at least a few individuals throughout grad school who would frequently bemoan having gone into clinical psych rather than medicine, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if some of this persisted beyond graduation.

I do agree with Pragma, though, that there are systemic issues in psych that need to be addressed. The internship crisis is definitely one. Our historical inefficiency and ineffectiveness in lobbying for ourselves politically is another, and has likely contributed to the aforementioned internship crisis (e.g., the limited or nonexistent ability to bill for our work as interns = internships being very expensive for sites = interns potentially being viewed as less-valuable than trainees in other mental health and medical professions).

 

[roubs]

Does all of this naive optimism simply wear off during grad school? It seems so ironic that this is precisely the field where professionals train and work to make people feel amazing, yet the professionals themselves seem tired, jaded, and empty.

Do we try to make them feel amazing or feel not suicidal? Lack of amazingness is not billable ..until you get a boutique practice.
<-jaded

 

[paramour]

Perhaps a V code in the making?

 

[roubs]

I think another part of the issue, at least in my experience, is that more people in clinical psych vs. other academic fields seriously considered medical school as a training/career path. Thus, rather than comparing ourselves to other Ph.D. fields/professionals, we often default to looking at medicine (and particularly physicians). I ran into at least a few individuals throughout grad school who would frequently bemoan having gone into clinical psych rather than medicine, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if some of this persisted beyond graduation.

I have to think some of these only considered medicine in their head. Working around med students and physicians for a few years should cure you of looking at medicine as all roses. Of course if you didn't make the comparison/decision before grad school then you have the buyers remorse factor as well. If I ever look longingly at psychiatry I can pull out my decisional balance sheet from 2008, which I signed and dated

 

[mewtoo]

I have to think some of these only considered medicine in their head. Working around med students and physicians for a few years should cure you of looking at medicine as all roses. Of course if you didn't make the comparison/decision before grad school then you have the buyers remorse factor as well. If I ever look longingly at psychiatry I can pull out my decisional balance sheet from 2008, which I signed and dated

I need to do one of those before I go to grad school...


But to the OP, I think this forum hasn't dissuaded me (who is applying this fall), but perhaps just informed me of the field I'm getting into. In some ways, mostly talking about research, its made me more excited to join this field. Perhaps you are suffering from negativity bias?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I have to think some of these only considered medicine in their head. Working around med students and physicians for a few years should cure you of looking at medicine as all roses. Of course if you didn't make the comparison/decision before grad school then you have the buyers remorse factor as well. If I ever look longingly at psychiatry I can pull out my decisional balance sheet from 2008, which I signed and dated

I'd imagine that definitely does happen, yep, possibly mixed with frequently spending time with the "end result" (e.g., advanced residents, fellows, attendings) rather than those going through the slog, which could further skew the view. I know of two people who switched from clinical psych to med school, and while both have been happy, both interestingly also completely switched intended areas of practice (both, I believe into family medicine/GP, perhaps because of the reduced training time). I would agree, though, that if a serious comparison didn't occur before grad school, it could be quite easy to fall into a buyer's remorse mindset when later seeing the differences in pay and, at least some of the time, prestige (particulary in medical center settings).

 

[Pragma]

OP, you can find plenty of threads comparing the relative merits of medical school vs. doctorate training in clinical psychology. Not all of us made signed weighted comparison statements like roubs did but some of us might be willing to let you know that it may not be exactly how you picture it.

As for "where's the passion," I would say that I save mine for the actual work I do with patients, students, etc. I come here and bitch and moan sometimes, or debate about things that are more difficult to discuss face-to-face, because this is a forum where it is an appropriate outlet for such activities. I never knew about this forum before grad school/internship/postdoc, and I like its utility for discussions about controversial issues facing the field, the field as a whole, jobs, complaining about the EPPP, etc, etc. I also enjoy giving my perspective to prospective students such as yourself.

It's a very unique time for our eductional system and economic system. I don't think sugar-coating things with feel-good messages is necessarily being helpful. As for more passionate discussions about treatments, etc - you will find those on this forum. But some of us do a lot of that anyways in our day-to-day, and are happy to discuss things that are not talked about enough within training programs.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I haven't really noticed the prestige thing. Sometimes, students/residents make assumptions or treat you with less respect, but that seems to be an experience issue. I've never noticed such things from faculty. I work in an academic medical center. But psychologists work in psychiatry or neurology for the most part (with a smattering of other departments). Both of those are pretty low on the medical totem pole. And, they don't make that much more.


Starting neurologists in my department are in the 120-130 range, depending on responsibilities. I'm at 110. I have no debt. Now, moving forward, their salaries probably will grow more than mine and they have more easily lucrative opportunities elsewhere. Also, the departments are built for physicians, so, if they don't have experience (administrators) with psychologists, it can create issues. E.g, CE credits are much easier to come by for physicians within the dept.

I think medical school is the more stable option. And, potentially much more lucrative.

I personally don't see it much, either; it's mostly hearsay from other interns at other sites. Even then, there's no vouching for the accuracy of the perceptions, of course. I've yet to have any physician at my current consortium (resident or attending) treat me in a one-down fashion; quite the opposite, actually, as the inpatient residents in particular seem to actively seek me out for a quick opinion on patients on whom they've requested a consult whenever they see me walking around (and I tend to stand out as one of the few folks with a tie and no white coat). The same was true back in grad school--there might've been some confusion as to what exactly I could and could not do (generally if the practicum site was somewhere that we'd just recently started working in), but nothing that wasn't congenial and easily-fixed.

Glad to hear I haven't just lucked out in these experiences. I would agree that upward mobility seems a bit easier for physicians in an AMC setting. I would also agree with another poster that the attitude towards psychology as a whole can have a lot to do with what type of groundwork the "forefathers" at your institution laid down. But all in all, my personal experiences have been nothing but positive.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I have read quite a bit about the lack of financial security...although all of the engineers i know who make similar salaries (70-85k) seem to be happy and satisfied.

That is like comparing apples and baseballs. They both are round, but beyond that they are completely different. The time/effort/skillsets are completely different. I think many are happy and satisfied, it is just harder to be both when you are still in training and/or struggling to establish yourself and your own professional identity.

I rarely ever see threads about actual topics pertaining to psychology. Nobody ever has debates about interesting theories or opinions on which method of treatment they feel works best.

A large portion of SDN members who post in the psych forums are prospective applicants, current/former applicants, and students. Some 'regulars' have tried to have more theoretical & applied discussions (myself included), but they get drowned out by ther dozens of "OMG, Help Me Get Into A Program!!!" threads that seem to pop up on a daily basis. Much of the readership on here is focused on getting into a program and/or getting through the process. I welcome more theoretical and applied discussion topics, but they tend to die off. I tried doing some journal discussions about a few different things, but they never got much traction.

All everyone does is bitch and moan, and it's starting to make me feel that i may be making a wrong choice. Perhaps i should stick with medicine? I mean where are the people who love what they do..the people who felt psychology was their calling? Where are the people that enjoy the hours of studying because they feel that priceless gratification of helping someone suffering from depression?

I think many/most of us genuinely enjoy what we do, but I think it is naive to believe that these efforts are primarily rooted in an unwaivering desire to help people, and the thousands of hours spent in training are selfless and 100% altruistic. This path cannot just be about helping other people because the typical clinician will fail more than s/he succeeds, and that will just beat down the person after awhile. There needs to be more to it than that.

Where are the REAL psychologists? The quirky witty smart funny and educated students who are fascinated with people's behavior and have a true genuine passion for helping those in need?

I think you are falling victim to a sampling bias and/or misperception of the actual field. Being a psychologist is not about being touchy feely. Psychologists come in many shapes, sizes, and personalities. We do not all espouse the belief that our sole job is to bring happiness to others. There are many amazing psychologists who don't fall into the stereotype you described. I think a more realistic perception is that the vast majority of the work of a psychologist is closer to Office Space than it is to Good Will Hunting. This isn't a good or bad thing...it is just how it is for the majority of clinicians. We try and do as much of what we love and minimize all of the other stuff. I spend at least 2-4hrs per day doing progress notes, writing reports, sending e-mails/pages, and handling other duties that don't include direct patient interaction. I'm not a huge fan of these things, but they need to get done so I can do the other things.

Does all of this naive optimism simply wear off during grad school? It seems so ironic that this is precisely the field where professionals train and work to make people feel amazing, yet the professionals themselves seem tired, jaded, and empty.

I think some of the negativity on here is probably a bit more than you see out in day to day practice, but you also don't see as much idealism either. It isn't our jobs as psychologists to make others feel amazing, we are here to try and make some sort of positive contribution...or at the least to not cause more harm. Sometimes being able to help someone hurt themselves less (harm reduction) is the best we can do. One of my proudest moments as a clinician involved helping a younger patient hate herself a little bit less, harm herself a lot less, and consider the possibility that she had something positive to contribute to this world before all was said and done. With a couple months of intensive work (3x wk & many group sessions) she went from feeling completely worthless and wanting to die most days...to someone who found a few things in herself that were worth preserving. She still struggled with urges to self harm, but they were managable and non-lethal...unlike prior behaviors. I'm not sure how everything panned out, but the last I heard she was set to attend a new school and give herself another shot at happiness. It wasn't a story-book ending, but for real life...it was a pretty darn good outcome.

Where has the passion gone? How the hell do we expect to ignite the passion in others when we regret our career choices?
sigh...rant over

The passion is still here, but I think it manifests differently for each person. It isn't up to psychologists to ignite the passion in others, whether in the classroom or in a therapy session. It is our job to help provide a safe space, model appropriate behaviors, teach the skills, and engage the other person in such a way that the person can feel empowered to be the impetus of their own change. We are more of a conduit, as we cannot force change or make people be a certain way. I'm a behaviorist by training, but even I know that there are limitations to what we can make people do. Instead of trying to fix things that I can't, I focus on things that might be able to change for the better.

Well...that was an interesting way to spend my time in between appts.

 

[roubs]

Ditto what pragma said about the fascination/curiosity/passion being saved for real life.

OP, I did want to agree with part of your post that I don't entirely get the level of hurt some feel about 70-85k starting salaries. It does have a lot to do with your frame of reference and I did knowingly trade away the higher salary as part of my pro/con evaluation. But I was also raised on a combined income of 40k (in 2012 dollars...yay no vacations / many used cars) and I don't view myself as being unfortunate if I begin raising a family on two ~75k incomes.

It does suck to be this educated and feel like society owes you more. That's why I choose not to feel such things. One of the most lucrative jobs relative to educational requirements is owning a liquor store. For some of you there's still time to turn around!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Ditto what pragma said about the fascination/curiosity/passion being saved for real life.

OP, I did want to agree with part of your post that I don't entirely get the level of hurt some feel about 70-85k starting salaries. It does have a lot to do with your frame of reference and I did knowingly trade away the higher salary as part of my pro/con evaluation. But I was also raised on a combined income of 40k (in 2012 dollars...yay no vacations / many used cars) and I don't view myself as being unfortunate if I begin raising a family on two ~75k incomes.

It does suck to be this educated and feel like society owes you more. That's why I choose not to feel such things. One of the most lucrative jobs relative to educational requirements is owning a liquor store. For some of you there's still time to turn around!

Very good points. As (I believe) iwillheal mentioned earlier in the thread, there isn't necessarily going to be a direct correlation between years of education and income, and just because we train for a while doesn't necessarily mean we deserve any sort of salary.

When I see my friends with Ph.D.'s in other fields (e.g., math, English, and even engineering) struggling to find work, and I'm able to fairly painlessly land a two-year postdoc (that pays about the same as the positions held by many of my non-grad friends who are a few years removed from their bachelors) simply by jumping through the few hoops required by the APPCN match, I feel like a jerk if I complain about anything.

 

[Pragma]

Very good points. As (I believe) iwillheal mentioned earlier in the thread, there isn't necessarily going to be a direct correlation between years of education and income, and just because we train for a while doesn't necessarily mean we deserve any sort of salary.

When I see my friends with Ph.D.'s in other fields (e.g., math, English, and even engineering) struggling to find work, and I'm able to fairly painlessly land a two-year postdoc (that pays about the same as the positions held by many of my non-grad friends who are a few years removed from their bachelors) simply by jumping through the few hoops required by the AACN match, I feel like a jerk if I complain about anything.

Are you suggesting that we should temper our upward social comparisons with downward ones to give us a more objective perspective

I think that folks mostly are upset with salaries relative to the amount of education we receive. Also, even with funded programs, I know a lot of people that take out loans because it would be impossible to live on the stipend alone. It certainly is not a piece of cake, which is the message I want to send to people. The benefits still outweigh the negative factors for many professionals.

But I'll keep that buying a liquor store option in my back pocket...seems like a great way to combine work and play

 

[EmotRegulation]

I also think that you might see some negativity on these boards as a mild deterrent. I'm an Assistant Professor now, and I absolutely love my job 90% of the time (the other ten percent is paperwork, journal rejections, grading, etc.). But I talk to a lot of undergrads who want to get a PhD in clinical psychology who mistakenly think (a) it's the only option toward becoming a therapist (because it's the only program they know of) and (b) that private practice clinical work is fulfilling and lucrative. The latter is true for a very few number of people, and although clinical work can be fulfilling, it can also be aggravating and frustrating--but people often don't expect those kinds of things. Social psychology tells us that people tend to be overly optimistic and over-confident about their chances of success. I tend to think of this board as a bit of a reality-check. If you can read all of this and still feel passionate about psychology and willing to work for it, then maybe it's a good fit.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

(b) that private practice clinical work is fulfilling and lucrative. The latter is true for a very few number of people, and although clinical work can be fulfilling, it can also be aggravating and frustrating--but people often don't expect those kinds of things.

Every prospective PP clinician should have to talk to clinicians in the trenches before embarking on a PP. It is insane the hoops clinicians are forced to jump through if they take insurance. HOURS are wasted each week fighting with insurance companies about coverage/pre-authorization/etc, it just depends if you are willing to fight the battle or if you will pay a % to a billing service to do it for you.

 

[edieb]

You act like you're leaving medicine on your own volition; however, when I went back and looked at some of your last posts, you wrote:

has anyone heard of a student failing out before the white coat ceremony? if you fail a course you don't pass the first block...people keep saying that the school doesn't want you to fail and will help you fight through it...but when i talk to them about the entire remediation process they make it seem like getting kicked out is not a very far fetched action.
im already looking at back up plans if i do get kicked out...but my friends here are saying im jumping the gun...our white coat ceremony is after the first block...specifically because some people drop out....but i always thought it was too harsh for the school to just kick people out because they were a few points away from passing.

Other posts have you thinking about what other D.O. programs you may be able to get into now. Thus, it seems like psychology is more of a back up for you

As graduate clinical psychology programs will scrutinize your performance in past programs, your performance in medical school will unfortunatley preclude you from admittance to a reputable PhD/PsyD program. Thus, you likely won't gain admittance to anything but a for-profit professional psychology school that is of ill-repute.

 

[JeyRo]

I enjoy my job, and even though I made a mistake not holding out for a funded program, I make decent money, my debt is manageable, and I get a lot of perks at my VA job. I really have few regrets. I know you can make more money in high finance, psychiatry, law, or whatever, but I don't think they tend to enjoy themselves as much as I do, I honestly don't.

(BTW I graduated from an unfunded program slightly less than a decade ago so if it was a bad mistake for me then, it's a titanically bad mistake now, several orders of magnitude more momentously bad a choice - seriously)

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I think it is pretty ungrateful to be asserting that people on this forum are not "real psychologists." People post on this forum to help you make the most important decision of your life with your eyes open. There is a definite lack of good information available to undergrads contemplating grad school and a life as a psychologist. Perhaps some of this information is hard to hear, but I think knowing it allows one to make an informed decision. No one is served by pretending that it is all gumdrops and lollipops.

Re: money. Undergrads are notoriously bad at estimating the importance of money in the real world. Why else would 20 year olds be willing to take on massive student loans and crushing credit card debit? Like it or not, it is a real world consideration. We can argue about how much constitutes a decent income, but you really need to consider if what you can earn in this field is acceptable to you. When I was in your shoes, I think I ignored what it would mean to support a family on $60K. Money didn't play into my career decisions at all and I should have spent a little time considering it.

Also, I think it hard to appreciate the challenges of fulltime clinical work without actually doing it. Of course there are the rewarding cases where your clients work hard on their issues, make tremendous growth, and thank you for your guidance. The question is: what portion of your practice does that need to be for you to feel good about your career? Realistically it is not going to be 100%. If you work in a community mental health setting (like I did for internship) it is going to be an extremely small portion of your caseload. Because of the terrible funding situation for mental health care, I was able to see clients with presenting problems such as severe trauma histories coupled with substance abuse once every three weeks. How much growth an improvement is possible in a setting like that? Now I am in a private practice serving mostly comfortably employed people with insurance. There are still immense challenges: patients who don't show up to appointments, drop out if they don't like what you have to say, drop out if they get better (but don't tell you this, so you never know), patients who try to manipulate you into filling out disability paperwork or testifying on their behalf in court. I could go on&#8230;.

This is to say nothing about the toll that being exposed to such darkness in the world takes on one's own soul. It can be really hard to listen day in and day out to stories of terrible abuse, neglect, hatred, etc. Also, tragic story after tragic story about terminal illness and misfortune. If you get into this business because you like and care about people, it is extremely hard to watch how much suffering there is in life. Self-care is part of the solution, but at times that feels inadequate.

I could say a lot more, but I suspect you just want us to confirm your rosy perceptions of the field and encourage you to go into it.

Dr. E

 

[Pragma]

No one is served by pretending that it is all gumdrops and lollipops.

Man, now I'm hungry. Gumdrops and lollipops sound good!

In all seriousness, I appreciated your post, particularly the part about how you can't appreciate clinical work until you ahve done it.

I know some people that started out wanting to be clinicians, then realized how stressful it was and ultimately went in other directions, or perhaps decided to work in a different clinical area (e.g., another population, testing, etc). I also know a few people that went the opposite route - they got more into it as they did more clinical work, and ditched their lofty research career goals.

I was on the fence about clinical work for awhile myself, and I still wavered back and forth about it throughout my training. Ultimately, I decided that it is an emotional pace that I can't keep up personally. If I do any clinical work in the future, it will be part time. I am much better suited for academic work. Now, I would have NEVER known that for certain without trying clinical work in multiple settings trhough my training.

It is one of the benefits of this field - you have some flexibility in career choice. But only if you keep the juggling act going on intensely enough that you are sure to remain competitive in each area (e.g., for me, teaching and publishing/research on top of heavy clinical training responsibilities). It gets very tiring after several years to keep your options wide open.

 

[NHPilot]

I spent 15 years in the medical field (Surgical Technologist) and I have heard more Drs (surgeons) talk about how they wish they could do it all over again (and not go to med school) than in any other profession I have come in contact with since.....Nurses were a close second...

I come here to get the info about getting into a clinical psych program and what the profession entails. I really don't need sunshine and lollipops....I want the truth...

Me...I could never ever conceive of taking out loans of 200k + to go to a FSPS....a lot of people come here though seemingly in search of people to tell them that it makes sense to go Argosy et al, and when they dont get that affirmation feelings can get hurt.....but they are getting truth and it sometimes aint what they want to hear...

BTW....I have to agree with others here and say that psychology seems like it is just kinda a backup to med school for you.....just another way to be called "Dr."....You need to make a career choice on what YOU want to do....not look for affirmation from a web site....

Just my 2 cents....

 

[PamelaBarker]

Some of it, I think, is that people tend to post in forums when they have problems, not when things go right. You never hear anyone say, "I make a good salary and I have an interesting workday. WHAT SHOULD I DO?!"



No need to come up with conspiracy theories. This is the internet. If there weren't a lot of complaining, I would be worried.

I concur. I never went to psych doctors when I was hypomanic and therefore was not diagnosed with bipolar II my 6 years in military and 3 years afterwards until I almost succeeded with suicide after a divorce.

 

[psyman]

I just spent the last four years doing practicum as free labor, giving up my nights and weekends to study, and will now begin internship making a salary which qualifies me for food stamps. I've had patients that make more than I do just off of government funding. Oh, AND I didn't match for internship last year (but matched this year). That was fun, let me tell you.

Meanwhile, in another thread, a guy 2/3 years out of post doc is saying the $82k he makes requires him to live frugally.

 

[Iwillheal]

Maybe we should just make a new thread asking people what kind of income they consider "good enough"? Which is perhaps different from the income they consider "fair enough" given the years of education and debt and so forth. Obviously, this number would be different if you live in, say, New York vs Oklahoma, but let's go for an average or if you want, use Seattle, Washington. Is 75k+ "good enough" so that you don't worry about money and paying the bill and having some basic level of comfort? I think many would consider owning a home a must and so we need to calculate mortgage and all that for a small home, and then insurance, and car payments, etc. In my view 75k is the minimum you need to make to have those kinds of things and even consider having a family and raising kids. If you make that or more, you should be fine. But that may be quite different from what you think is a "fair enough" salary given the debt, years of education, sacrifices you've made, difficulty of course of study, etc. I had a PM from someone who said anything less than 120k would not be fair, and that ideally he hopes to make about 150k in private practice to make years of blood, sweat, and tears, worth it.

 

[Sanman]

I would have to agree that six figures would be considered good. However, anything with 75k+ with stability and benefits would be a good deal, like the VA or hospital job. The benefits and pension/ 401k programs make up for a lot. In order for me to take on the uncertainty and lack of benefits in private practice, I would need at least $120k to be able to pay health insurance, put away for retirement without any help from elsewhere.

However, I agree that there are too many factors to consider when deciding what is enough. Where do you live? How much does your spouse make if you have one? Do you have kids? Are you a single parent? There are also quality of life factors to consider. I would gladly take a $70-75k job that was in a better environment, gave me more flexibility and independence, and made me a happier person than a better paying job that was always pressuring me to produce.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

The entitlement expressed in these threads is obnoxious at best. I can't understand, for the life of me, why psychologists think that $75-85k per year is the bare minimum required for a comfortable living, with six figures being the expected salary. That is just shocking. Shocking. I can see if someone has significant debt, from a PsyD that they paid for with loans for example. But if you went to a funded PhD program? Are you kidding me? Why would anyone feel that they are entitled to a 6-figure salary? I don't buy the "I lived in poverty for 5-10 years while I was in school!" reason. Do you know how many people in this country live in poverty, while working their butts off at multiple soul-sucking jobs and long hours, for most (if not all) of their lives?? What makes you so special? It just makes me sick to read all of this. I really wish that people moving into this field would express more primary interest in moving the field forward than on filling their bank accounts--that is what will create security in our profession, not complaining about the hard work/sacrifice and thereby demanding a salary that the majority of our population would consider rolling in dough.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I don't know if I've seen many people here say that they expect to earn six figures; rather, that six figures is the point at which they'd feel their salary was "good enough." I'm not sure if this is really entitlement, or if it instead reflects the generally over-achieving nature of many people in grad school (perhaps both, with varying amounts of each on a case-by-case basis).

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I don't know if I've seen many people here say that they expect to earn six figures; rather, that six figures is the point at which they'd feel their salary was "good enough." I'm not sure if this is really entitlement, or if it instead reflects the generally over-achieving nature of many people in grad school (perhaps both, with varying amounts of each on a case-by-case basis).

Same difference.

And regarding your last sentence, I agree with the sentiment, although I'm not sure if it's overachieving (i.e., actually attained) as much as overly high expectations--a certain formula for disappointment, which of course is commonly expressed on this forum.

 

[Pragma]

I had the expectation of 60-70K fresh out of school. I likely would have been making close to that had I stayed at my former job and received typical raises (was making 40K before grad school). I don't consider that entitled given that I put in 7 years of work for a marginal salary increase. I never expected 6 figures, but I expected fair compensation.

What floored me was how tough it was to even get a 60-70K job. Competition is fierce and the economy sucks. You have to be on your A-game to get good jobs, particularly if you have a location restriction.

I find expecting 6 figures off the bat to probably be unrealistic for most new graduates.

 

[Dirkwww]

I had the expectation of 60-70K fresh out of school. I likely would have been making close to that had I stayed at my former job and received typical raises (was making 40K before grad school). I don't consider that entitled given that I put in 7 years of work for a marginal salary increase. I never expected 6 figures, but I expected fair compensation.

What floored me was how tough it was to even get a 60-70K job. Competition is fierce and the economy sucks. You have to be on your A-game to get good jobs, particularly if you have a location restriction.

I find expecting 6 figures off the bat to probably be unrealistic for most new graduates.

was the salary of your job out of grad school, if you dont mind me asking

 

[TNS1991]

The entitlement expressed in these threads is obnoxious at best. I can't understand, for the life of me, why psychologists think that $75-85k per year is the bare minimum required for a comfortable living, with six figures being the expected salary. That is just shocking. Shocking. I can see if someone has significant debt, from a PsyD that they paid for with loans for example. But if you went to a funded PhD program? Are you kidding me? Why would anyone feel that they are entitled to a 6-figure salary? I don't buy the "I lived in poverty for 5-10 years while I was in school!" reason. Do you know how many people in this country live in poverty, while working their butts off at multiple soul-sucking jobs and long hours, for most (if not all) of their lives?? What makes you so special? It just makes me sick to read all of this. I really wish that people moving into this field would express more primary interest in moving the field forward than on filling their bank accounts--that is what will create security in our profession, not complaining about the hard work/sacrifice and thereby demanding a salary that the majority of our population would consider rolling in dough.

Thank you for saying this. I have been thinking the same thing while reading this thread, but have been too afraid to state my opinion. I understand that the pay you receive in grad school is very low and if you took out several loans for a PsyD program that you want to be fully compensated by a high paying (100k+ in a lot of people's minds) job as soon as you are done with school. However, I kindly say that these people need a reality check. After working in a retail setting for almost four years I knew people who worked their butt of at a job where they worked minimum wage, long hours and still was able to take care of their families without complaining. They might not have had the "finer" things in life but they still had a roof over their heads and food on their table. I also hear stories about college students who are jobless after receiving a bachelor's degree. They have loads of debt, have to move back with their parents and still have no job offers above minimum wage or part time work. It's just the blunt reality of the world we are currently living in. I don't want to start a fight or make people angry with my post. But it's just very hard for me to be sympathetic for people who make over 75k who complain about not earning enough money.

 

[Pragma]

was the salary of your job out of grad school, if you dont mind me asking

I took an academic (teaching/research) job, making mid-60s, on a 9-month contract. I think it is a very fair amount of money to be working for.

 

[erg923]

I also hear stories about college students who are jobless after receiving a bachelor's degree. They have loads of debt, have to move back with their parents and still have no job offers above minimum wage or part time work. It's just the blunt reality of the world we are currently living in.

1. You're talking about BA level folks here....

2. Nobody is anything special. But my education is..at least in view of market set salaries, right? Commiserate earnings for the time, effort, edu attainment. This is how the market works. To not operate this way drives people away from the profession. It does away with the incentive of going all the way, right? Fighting for things like this is GOOD for the profession. Not fighting and simply accepting the continued devaluation of our services because one is all doe-eyed and should "just want to help people" does a great disservice the future of this profession.

3. I have no shame in saying that I got into this profession to make money. No shame. Thats a business mentality, but thats really what it takes to be a small business owner (i.e., private practice).

 

[Pragma]

On point 3, I didn't get into this profession to make a ton of money (would be nice to hit 6 figures eventually, but with the combined income of my partner, not a huge deal), but I did expect to be fairly compensated for my level of educational attainment and skills. I don't really think there's anything wrong with that.

I'm on the same page as you here. I figure I will probably be up to six figures eventually via annual raises and promotions, but I never expected to start out at that rate after finishing school/postdoc.

But hearing about jobs paying 40-50K made me cringe, since I was already making 40K before even embarking on the 7 year journey towards completing a PhD/postdoc/etc. Doesn't seem "entitled" to me.

 

[JeyRo]

was the salary of your job out of grad school, if you dont mind me asking

My first year out of grad school (not counting postdoc) I probably made about 25K and I worked my tail off, it was dismal (I made less than I did on my postdoc).

Then I got a VA job and my income jumped to 87K plus benefits. Five years later its above 100K, and I have lots of potential for consulting work - one of the gigs I do on the side pays 80 bucks an hour.

Looking ahead I'm still not giving up on a hard-money medical school appointment with significant teaching components and some protected research time, but that's down the line.

 

[TNS1991]

1. You're talking about BA level folks here....

2. Nobody is anything special. But my education is..at least in view of market set salaries, right? Commiserate earnings for the time, effort, edu attainment. This is how the market works. To not operate this way drives people away from the profession. It does away with the incentive of going all the way, right? Fighting for things like this is GOOD for the profession. Not fighting and simply accepting the continued devaluation of our services because one is all doe-eyed and should "just want to help people" does a great disservice the future of this profession.

3. I have no shame in saying that I got into this profession to make money. No shame. Thats a business mentality, but thats really what it takes to be a small business owner (i.e., private practice).

I don't think you really understand what I am saying. I realize that an example I gave was about BA folks, but stories like this make it hard for me to have sympathy for anybody who has a job that makes a descent living, regardless of their education. I'm also not saying fighting for higher pay is a bad thing. I agree that 40-50k is too low for a full time clinical psychologist. We should be concentrating on those figures instead of complaining about 70k+ being too low. It's going to be hard for people to feel sorry for us instead of thinking we all as a profession are obnoxious. People on this thread complain about making 80k and saying they can't live on it. With what I have seen in my life and what I have lived it's hard for me to have sympathy for people like that. They have a full time job, a descent salary and so many people (including PhD's in other fields) cannot say that.

 

[erg923]

I don't think you really understand what I am saying. I realize that an example I gave was about BA folks, but stories like this make it hard for me to have sympathy for anybody who has a job that makes a descent living, regardless of their education. I'm also not saying fighting for higher pay is a bad thing. I agree that 40-50k is too low for a full time clinical psychologist. We should be concentrating on those figures instead of complaining about 70k+ being too low. It's going to be hard for people to feel sorry for us instead of thinking we all as a profession are obnoxious. People on this thread complain about making 80k and saying they can't live on it. With what I have seen in my life and what I have lived it's hard for me to have sympathy for people like that. They have a full time job, a descent salary and so many people (including PhD's in other fields) cannot say that.

I get what you're saying. You think because many people have it hard, and you're a touchy-feely softy psychologist who appreciates environmental and economic factors and forces that lead to povery and underemployment in this country...that you should be grateful to make a decend wage and would have "guilt" at making alot of money.

With this logic, as long as someone makes the median salary and can provide a roof and food..then everyone should make the same. no?

So, my neurosurgeon should be fine with 80k/year? Thats enough for him to live on, right? So why should he make more? How bout the president? How bout CFO at (insert company name here).

 

[TNS1991]

I get what you're saying. You think because many people have it hard, and you're a touchy-feely softy psychologist who appreciates environmental and economic factors and forces that lead to povery and underemployment in this country...that you should be grateful to make a decend wage and would have "guilt" at making alot of money.

With this logic, as long as someone makes the median salary and can provide a roof and food..then everyone should make the same. no?

So, my neurosurgeon should be fine with 80k/year? Thats enough for him to live on, right? So why should he make more? How bout the president? How bout CFO at (insert company name here).

Well, honestly, with your touch-feely psychologist remark I am not going to bother wasting my time arguing with you. Many people have different opinions about what is considered descent living and "rich". You and I are obviously not on the same page and since you came into this profession for money and to "get rich". I came in because it would give me a descent living. I don't know what you consider the median salary, but 80k is almost twice as much as the average American household makes. No it is not enough for a neurosurgeon because he went to medical school and has more specialization then an average clinical psychologist has. People who are highly specialized in the medical field should get a high salary, I don't think anyone will disagree with this. Now, if a clinical psychologist is very specialized, has been in the business for a number of years, then yes he/she should expect a very high salary. However, if people want to complain that the first job they get makes only 75-80k, then we are not going to get much sympathy with this fight. 40k is too low for a phd level psychologist, even if they are just starting out. I don't think anybody is going to argue with that. However, 75k, 80k? That to me is pretty good considering that we are not as rare as neurosurgeons,and lots of other medical specialties. Again, I am talking about starting salary and not the max salary.

And no, you should not feel guilt about making a lot of money if you work hard and are properly educated. You and I apparently have very different standards on what "a lot" is.

 

[Ollie123]

I take little issue with people expecting/wanting to make over 100k. I feel the same way.

It does bother me when I see people acting like anyone earning less than this is starving to death. There's nothing at all wrong with striving to do better, but let's keep some perspective here, lest we look like spoiled children. We always tend to make upwards comparisons to physician salaries, etc. These are generally the outliers. Would I like to earn that? Of course. It doesn't mean anything less than that is unlivable, I might starve, etc. We can look at the wall street broker and cry about our situation. Yet we don't just need to compare ourselves to sales clerks. The way some people act, the typical engineer, CPA, middle-management type, etc. is also bordering on starving to death. Basically, everyone but folks entering the small selection of professions we tend to make comparisons to is doing terribly and cannot possibly survive.

50k starting is still above what many (but not all) professional bachelor's level folks typically get, as well as a good number of BAs and PhDs in other fields. 80k is significantly above that. As it should be - I'm by no means arguing our salary should be the same. Psychology certainly does not give the best financial return for education invested. We all know this. Anyone who did their homework knew this before they ever applied to grad school....and I have little sympathy for anyone who applied without actually doing the legwork to figure out if this was a good decision.

However, I think people start to look foolish when they act like we don't earn enough to survive. This shows a ludicrous lack of perspective. Yes - someone who took on 200k debt to attend an awful program and is now aspiring to a master's level license doing therapy at a third rate CMHC is in big trouble. Most of us could certainly earn more doing other things. People should walk in knowing this is not the best ROI if one is looking strictly at the finances. I'll be the first to say I think salaries are lower than they should be in this field. However, I'll also be the first to say that when it comes to the "big picture" we are still going to be okay. For those of us coming out of decent programs, at worst, we are looking at salaries comparable to what the typical entry level engineer/accountant/etc. earns. Many will earn more than this. Is this fair? Certainly not - we should be earning more. Yet I don't see many folks here crying about the awful state of engineering and how engineering is the path to starving to death, how they won't be able to feed their family, etc.

My perspective? I'll earn less than I would have with other paths available to me. I'll still earn more than the vast majority of people, more than enough for me to have a happy, comfortable life, and will get to work a job I enjoy. This was a reasoned decision, and one I'm comfortable with.

 

[erg923]

No it is not enough for a neurosurgeon because he went to medical school and has more specialization then an average clinical psychologist has. People who are highly specialized in the medical field should get a high salary,.

I see. But specialized mental health practitioners, such as doctoral-level clincial psychologists, should not? People are gonna dance all over that comment, so I would suggest you rethink it.

I am always interested when our own members devalue our education,training...and their own jobs. This is something fairly unique to psychology, I think.

 

[roubs]

I get what you're saying. You think because many people have it hard, and you're a touchy-feely softy psychologist who appreciates environmental and economic factors and forces that lead to povery and underemployment in this country...that you should be grateful to make a decend wage and would have "guilt" at making alot of money.

With this logic, as long as someone makes the median salary and can provide a roof and food..then everyone should make the same. no?

So, my neurosurgeon should be fine with 80k/year? Thats enough for him to live on, right? So why should he make more? How bout the president? How bout CFO at (insert company name here).

Mehh, I won't feel any guilt for being well compensated, I would just like other well compensated people to stop complaining about above median salaries. When people say that the complaints are just wanting fair market value...who says that the crappy salary isn't fair market value? The market clearly doesn't provide commensurate earnings for additional time/educational attainment. Our sector (the therapy providing side) clearly feels the economic pressure from the fact that we are in 'competition' with client's friends and family, their unlicensed life coaches, their pastor etc etc.

A glut of desperate workers taking whatever awful salary they can get = market forces. It doesn't matter one whit that the letters after our names give us warm special feelings.

 

[TNS1991]

I see. But specialized mental health practitioners, such as doctoral-level clincial psychologists, should not? People are gonna dance all over that comment, so I would consider you rethink it.

I am always interested when our own members devalue our education,training...and their own jobs. This is something fairly unique to psychology, I think.

People may not want to hear this, but doctorate training in clinical psychology is not a rarity anymore thanks to professional schools handing out PsyD's like hotcakes. If a person has highly specialized training beyond the regular clincial psych. training, like specific post-doc training in neuroscience then they should expect to be compensated for this. But with the high number of clinical psych. doctorates out there, it is hard to say that we deserve more money then 75-80k starting out if we have nothing beyond the regular doctoral training in clinical psychology. I am not saying clinical psychologists are not highly trained, they are. They are just not as rare as other specialized medical professionals. If we are not rare, why should a hospital, for example, hire a new clinical psychologist for 70k when they can find a new PsyD grad down the street who will take a 55k salary without knowing any better? If people want to walk all over me for pointing this out, then so be it. But somebody had to say it.

 

[paramour]

I see. But specialized mental health practitioners, such as doctoral-level clincial psychologists, should not? People are gonna dance all over that comment, so I would consider you rethink it.

I am always interested when our own members devalue our education,training...and their own jobs. This is something fairly unique to psychology, I think.

Yeeeah, I was going to jump on that comment, and I've actually been one of the few in the past who chide people who complain about those abysmal $75k-80k yearly salaries and "demand" 6 figure incomes starting out. If you did your research before you entered the field, you knew darned well, this wasn't likely. If you didn't do your research, then quit your b*tching because you were ill-prepared. Again, to parrot myself, this is just as bad as dude straight out of college with a BA in underwater basket weaving demanding that he be paid 6 figures. Um, yeah, okay. Why? What exactly do you bring to the table? Oh, but wait... we have education, skills, training, and all that jazz. (I should hope!) In that case, then, yes, we most certainly would expect some higher level of compensation in return for our services as specialized practitioners because we don't have degrees in underwater basket weaving. But, if I know that I can earn 'x' salary without that highly specialized degree & training, then I am most certainly going to cringe when I make that same salary (if not lower?!) with that specialized degree/training upon graduation. E'gads! Why the frak did I go to school for all those years exactly? Put some value on yourself, folks! At the same time, don't be thinking that just because you have a piece of paper you're entitled to any ole' income that you feel you deserve because you couldn't possibly make it without buying a house, having 2 new cars in your driveway, going on numerous vacations, and whatever other baubles & toys you want to throw in ... as soon as you graduate. Live within your means for crying out loud, unless you are living at home with the parental units. Then do as you please, I suppose.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I really don't know what is to be gained by arguing back and forth about what a reasonable salary is and who is or is not greedy or entitled. People have different views on this topic. It is what it is. No one's mind is going to be changed by this argument. I do not require that anyone share my values about what is a reasonable income and I do not think I am obligated to share theirs.

I think what is valuable is giving prospective grad students an idea of what can be expected financially. I think people tend to way overestimate the earning potential of psychologists. At the very least this leads to disappointment, at the worst it leads people to choose a career when they may be happier doing something more lucrative.

Also (I said this on another thread) talking about "starting salary" for clinical psychologists can be misleading. A sizable chunk of psychologists work in private practice settings and are reimbursed by insurance companies for their services. Insurance companies pay experienced therapists and newbies the exact same amount. They don't give yearly raises, and sometimes even reduce their reimbursement rates. So, if I stay in the same private practice setting I am in now, my "ending salary" will be about the same (or less) as my starting salary. Another major consideration about private practice is the lack of benefits or retirement, so you need to make more if you wish to have access to healthcare or if you ever want to retire. We have a bit of dark humor pertaining to this in my practice&#8230;we say, "Psychologists don't retire, they die." 50K starting out at the VA or a university is nothing like earning 50K in PP.

Dr. E

 

[paramour]

People have different views on this topic. It is what it is. No one’s mind is going to be changed by this argument. I do not require that anyone share my values about what is a reasonable income and I do not think I am obligated to share theirs.

Which is why I typically *try* to stay out of these threads because I agree that no one's going to change their minds about these things at this stage of the game.

I think people tend to way overestimate the earning potential of psychologists.

Agreed here, but how much of this is due to people not doing their research before they enter the field and then realize "oh, crap, I'm only going to make how much?!"

 

[dumbledoresgirl]

I really don’t know what is to be gained by arguing back and forth about what a reasonable salary is and who is or is not greedy or entitled. People have different views on this topic. It is what it is. No one’s mind is going to be changed by this argument. I do not require that anyone share my values about what is a reasonable income and I do not think I am obligated to share theirs.

I think what is valuable is giving prospective grad students an idea of what can be expected financially. I think people tend to way overestimate the earning potential of psychologists. At the very least this leads to disappointment, at the worst it leads people to choose a career when they may be happier doing something more lucrative.

Also (I said this on another thread) talking about “starting salary” for clinical psychologists can be misleading. A sizable chunk of psychologists work in private practice settings and are reimbursed by insurance companies for their services. Insurance companies pay experienced therapists and newbies the exact same amount. They don’t give yearly raises, and sometimes even reduce their reimbursement rates. So, if I stay in the same private practice setting I am in now, my “ending salary” will be about the same (or less) as my starting salary. Another major consideration about private practice is the lack of benefits or retirement, so you need to make more if you wish to have access to healthcare or if you ever want to retire. We have a bit of dark humor pertaining to this in my practice…we say, “Psychologists don’t retire, they die.” 50K starting out at the VA or a university is nothing like earning 50K in PP.

Dr. E

This is probably a stupid question, but I figured I'd rather ask it here than ask someone at my program (I'm starting in August). When people here talk about private practice...are we talking literally working for yourself? Or are we talking about working for some small office called Associated Therapies (typical, I know) where there are 4 psychologists each seeing their own clients and a secretary that answers phone calls? Or are those two basically the same thing?