this forum makes me doubt psych as a good career

[TNS1991]

Agreed here, but how much of this is due to people not doing their research before they enter the field and then realize "oh, crap, I'm only going to make how much?!" [/QUOTE]

This is what really upsets me when threads turn into one big argument. I feel like I kind of got the thread off track and I'm sorry because I did not post my original comment to start an argument. I was just pointing out that many people consider 75-80k salary starting out to be very good and you should really not complain if this is a starting salary. But again, it's just my humble opinion . If people who think this is not enough money tell people who want to get into psychology they will be broke, then people will be turned away thinking they are not going to be able to support their family, when they can with reasonable spending. People really need to research what is reasonable for a starting psychologist and what specific training can increase their earning potential. Just a regular PhD/PsyD in clinical psych. will not cut it anymore for "high" salaries starting out since there is an overabundance. But many people do not bother to research this and believe that they are entitled to 100k salaries starting out and will get rich just because they have a PhD. We are not as rare as many medical specialties, with proper research you can figure this out easily. People need to decide what is reasonable earning for them, look to see what training getting this salary will involve and decide if clinical psychology is for them when considering all that. It is a personal decision and somebody reading this who is trying to make that decision should take this thread and all opinions (including mine) with a grain of salt, because it is different for everybody.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

This is probably a stupid question, but I figured I'd rather ask it here than ask someone at my program (I'm starting in August). When people here talk about private practice...are we talking literally working for yourself? Or are we talking about working for some small office called Associated Therapies (typical, I know) where there are 4 psychologists each seeing their own clients and a secretary that answers phone calls? Or are those two basically the same thing?

There are lots of ways to work in PP and I think we are talking about all of them here. There are trade-offs either way. Starting out, it is easiest to join a practice where they can provide referrals and clerical support. In my case, I am an independent contractor (i.e. no benefits, but I can work as much or as little as I want) in a practice where they take about 50% of the money that insurance companies reimburse me. There are some people who choose to stay in that environment their whole careers (we have 2 of them and we keep asking why they put up with this arrangement).

In PP you can also work for yourself and do your own billing and scheduling, etc. You can make more $ that way, but the trade off might be that it is harder to get referrals, at least at first. Or you can not accept insurance and see only people who can pay out of pocket. But in most markets, this is hard to do unless you are already well-estabilished.

Does that answer it?

Dr. E

 

[dumbledoresgirl]

There are lots of ways to work in PP and I think we are talking about all of them here. There are trade-offs either way. Starting out, it is easiest to join a practice where they can provide referrals and clerical support. In my case, I am an independent contractor (i.e. no benefits, but I can work as much or as little as I want) in a practice where they take about 50% of the money that insurance companies reimburse me. There are some people who choose to stay in that environment their whole careers (we have 2 of them and we keep asking why they put up with this arrangement).

In PP you can also work for yourself and do your own billing and scheduling, etc. You can make more $ that way, but the trade off might be that it is harder to get referrals, at least at first. Or you can not accept insurance and see only people who can pay out of pocket. But in most markets, this is hard to do unless you are already well-estabilished.

Does that answer it?

Dr. E

Yes, thank you! I was just wondering whether the issues people have with PP are specific to working for yourself, or if they were with the sector in general and it doesn't matter whether you're on your own or you work for a practice.

 

[Sanman]

Being thankful of 75-85k really depends on your perspective. It really amuses me when people talk about how greedy we are, I am really curious as to how many of the people stating that are actually out trying to make a living. For the record, I don't believe anyone demanded $100k as a starting salary, though I would not complain. I picked my numbers, $75-80k starting and going up to six figures, based on the VA salary scale. I think that is more than reasonable. It amuses me that people think that is too much. As for those who feel that a 'regular psyd/phd' is too common and specialties should be paid higher, the only legally protected term out there is regular old 'licensed clinical psychologist'. There really is nothing stopping me from advertising myself as a neuropsychologist regardless of if I completed a specialty fellowship because legally it is just a suggestion. There is no neuropsychologist license. The truth is that salary has no bearing on what you do. I provide the same service (psychotherapy) with the same skill level (my skillset) and am compensated anywhere from $30 to $90 per hour. For those that feel that I am greedy, please give me your names. You can come work for me. I will offer independent contractor jobs capped at $55k/yr and you are required to see 8 patients/day. All profits go to my practice. This way, you can feel better about yourself.

Seriously, in addition to what Dr.E mentioned, you also need to keep in mind that any salary differences between areas are minimal except when running a cash business. Medicare does not really care that I live outside NYC and Dr. X lives in Kansas where the COL is a fraction of mine.

While people are getting so angry at the greed, here is a sampling of people I know and salaries in the NYC area:

IT associate (1 year out, age 22): 85k
IT Manager at a financial firm (6 yrs experience in the field): 170-180k depending on bonus
Broker at a Wall Street firm (1 yr experience, B.A. in finance, inside office): 135k
CPA (3 yrs experience, smaller firm): 92k
Lawyer (2 yrs experience): 67k
Web content developer (1 yr experience, Associate degree): 73k
Web content developer (3 yrs experience, bachelors degree): 83k
Marketing firm Associate (2 yrs experience, B.A. level): 110k
Case Manager (B.A. level social worker): 45k

Me - First yr psychologist (unlicensed): ~40k

Average rent in manhattan, per NPR today: $2900/mth

Yeah, I am definitely the greedy one expecting $75k as a fully licensed psychologist. God forbid I want to pay my loans, rent, bills, and maybe buy my gf an engagement ring.

 

[Dirkwww]

So salaries can be everywhere really? Its nice to see room for salary growth thought, at places like a VA. Can anyone give stories or speak on this. thanks

 

[valentinoRossi]

there is nothing wrong with complaining about the "low" salary that you are receiving..(whatever low means to you that is)..but there IS something wrong with complaining about something that you should have been prepared for.
How in the world does one not anticipate how much they will be making in their career? All it took was a google search, and in 2 seconds you would have read the averages. I just feel like nobody has any right to complain or be bitter about how much they are making because it was never a secret to them.
If you didn't do your homework before picking a field you should keep your negativity to a minimum and spare your colleagues the bitching.
My initial post was not meant to give the notion that money is bad...money is good...money gives you options...without money we wouldn't be able to do research and further the field of psychology....but to make money you need to fully believe in your product..you need to have passion for your product so that your customer will believe in it too. I just started studying psychology recently, but being a bit older (24) I am doing with pure love. I want to give to others what psych is giving to me...and the biggest givers are the biggest GETTERS.
There is a book by russell simmons called "super rich" that i wish everyone would read. It's about the art of hustling, and what it means to be rich. Being content and passionate about your craft will lead to wealth. Being the best at your craft will lead to wealth...But being passionate about being wealthy is a formula for disaster. The key to being a financially successful psychologist is to master your craft. Nobody can deny talent or strong work...you just can't. There are winners and losers in every field..the more you complain about, the more you lose. Winners find ways to succeed, no matter what. I know this because I lost and failed in numerous things in my life before I began to understand what it takes to win...maybe it's because I changed careers a few times and have been around ambitious people from all different backgrounds...whether its in IT, medicine, or being into start-up companies...or in the entertainment business...the hustle is still the same....give your services to people until they can't afford not to have you.

and lastly...the term "rich" is relative.
Being "rich" is not about $$$...its about being content with what you are doing. This is not some tacky monk bull****, this is the honest truth. You can be financially well off and still miserable. You can be making under the poverty line and still have a "rich" life. I never understood the concept of complaining about $ on a forum...why are you posting about $ problems when you could be making money. Wealthy people just don't work 9-5 and relax all day. They are working non-stop, there is no clocking out for a boss.

dave chapelle is one of my favorite comedians...in a interview with james lipton he discussed a conversation he had with his dad about his desire to become a comedian.
Dave's dad told him that...you can try to be a comedian, but you might not make it...not everyone makes it.
12 year old Dave Chapelle responds, "well it depends what "making" it means dad......if i can make a teacher's salary being a comedian i'll consider that as "making it"...."

The value of your profit is relative to the value of enjoyment you get from your labor. If you enjoy the labor, part of your profit is within the work itself.
Just my 2 cents

 

[Dirkwww]

a lot of interesting thoughts, but im kind of confused given i seem to read a lot of VA jobs over around 70K and people seem to work their salary up from that to pretty nice salaries with in a 5 year or so mark

 

[AcronymAllergy]

a lot of interesting thoughts, but im kind of confused given i seem to read a lot of VA jobs over around 70K and people seem to work their salary up from that to pretty nice salaries with in a 5 year or so mark

From all I've seen and heard, the VA can be an excellent employer/opportunity if you enjoy the type of work you do there. Just keep in mind that lots of other people know this as well, so the competition for spots in the VA system can be quite significant. Additionally, to keep your options truly open, relocation may need to be something you're willing to consider.

Just in my own personal experience (both at the VA which is part of my internship consortium, and second-hand from what supervisors and postdocs have said to me), I haven't yet met someone who's been unhappy in a VA spot. There are plenty who've gone on to other ventures, and even more who've been frustrated at some point with the way some things work either in the VA system or in their VAMC specifically, but none have ever said they didn't enjoy the experience more often than not. I have yet to speak at length to anyone in C&P, though, so I'm not sure how things are over in that particular area.

 

[Pragma]

VR, I laughed at the part where you described 24 as "older"

Having passion and enjoying what you do is a good aspiration, but it also depends on your goals in life. I couldn't take a teacher's salary to do what I do, travel to the places I want to go, support children, live in the city I love, or help out family members financially.

Many people work to live. I'd like to think most psychologists got into the field because they are passionate about it and wanted to make a decent living. I certainly never expected to be rich, but one does want to earn enough to have opportunities, enjoy life, and support their other interests and family. At the end of the day, I love my job, but I also love my family and our goals together. It is worth fighting for fair pay.

Disclaimer...I am more realistic and less idealistic than I was at 24

 

[Doctor Eliza]

"The key to being a financially successful psychologist is to master your craft."

If only that were true. I think this is actually a huge part of the frustration expressed in this thread. Do you think insurance companies care if I do a good job or not? Do you think they pay me more for doing quality therapy? No, they want me to move people through treatment as quickly as possible so they can pay out fewer benefits.

In fact, one thing that grad school really doesn't prepare you for is how to have business savvy and make money as a psychologist.

Your comment makes me laugh because several of the psychologists I know who are in positions of power and do make money are truly terrible clinicians. Ridiculously unhelpful and at times unethical.

The work is certainly more rewarding if you are good at it, but that is a different question than money.

Dr. E

 

[erg923]

So salaries can be everywhere really? Its nice to see room for salary growth thought, at places like a VA. Can anyone give stories or speak on this. thanks

Its public record. GS-11, to GS-12, to GS13 (With many steps going up into six figures after some years). No growth afyr about 10 years though. GS-14 for adminstrative and chief positions.

You can look up the corresponding numbers with the locale adjustments.

 

[Sanman]

VR,

I have to laugh at your comment a bit as well. While passion for work is important, it does not correlate to wealth. You can be the best clinician ever and if you are a poor business person, you will never be wealthy. The irony is that Simmons himself never perfected a craft. Rather, he made millions of dollars off of the talent of many artists on his record label, it started with his brother and Run-DMC. Using that analogy, you would need passion for being a health insurance executive or hospital administrator.

 

[Sanman]

For those in this thread that state the expectations of some are too high, I am curious how you would like to practice currently or in the future. Independent practice, group practice, hospital, school, counseling center? Would you be the practice owner? How would you structure your career? I am just left wondering what others want to do and if they know the true costs associated.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You can be the best clinician ever and if you are a poor business person, you will never be wealthy.

I'd guess that 99.5% of the time a mediocre clinician with good business skills will out-earn a good clinician with mediocre business skills....and usually by a wide margin. I'd argue that many of the best clinicians fail to earn in the top %-tiles because they actively avoid the business side of things because it takes away time from being a clinician and participating in their craft. It isn't a good or bad thing, it just is something I've observed. Some clinicians can get by despite their disinterest in the business side, but I think it is becoming harder and harder to do in today's healthcare system.

 

[Sanman]

I'd guess that 99.5% of the time a mediocre clinician with good business skills will out-earn a good clinician with mediocre business skills....and usually by a wide margin. I'd argue that many of the best clinicians fail to earn in the top %-tiles because they actively avoid the business side of things because it takes away time from being a clinician and participating in their craft. It isn't a good or bad thing, it just is something I've observed. Some clinicians can get by despite their disinterest in the business side, but I think it is becoming harder and harder to do in today's healthcare system.

Oh absolutely, business skills are what draws clients in and keeps them coming. The truth of the matter is that people have no idea what level of expertise you have in an area unless it widely known that you are a respected expert. In other thread, we talked about Jonathon Alpert being poorly qualified and borderline unethical with the work he does on tv. Yet, he is great at marketing himself and making friends in the media, so I am sure that his rates are higher than most doctoral clinicians with significant expertise in an area that would likely be more effective. All the guy needs is to be decent enough to have some positive outcomes and those people will speak of him like a guru. The many failed clients will be drowned out by the spotlight.

However, that is not to say that psychologists, have no issues. As a group, psychologists might be the absolute worst business people on the planet. If you want to be successful in running your own practice, you need to know your fee schedule for each type of client seen (cash, insurance, medicare/medicaid), your payor mix and the total of all the fixed costs needed to keep your practice running. Filling a practice with patients does little if those patients do not cover your bills. If you are more savvy, you will look at collections and figure out what percentage of billed services are actually being paid. Having a higher per hour rate from an insurance company does nothing for you if you are only collecting on 40% of payments (I believe the industry average hovers at about about 60% of submitted claims). That is what the bleeding hearts do not understand. It is not about psychologists wanting easy money. It is about the fact that the light company, the landlord, the medical billing company, and your employees do not care if the patient you are seeing is destitute and in serious need of mental healthcare. They still want their money at the end of the month. Someone has to make sure that this is all profitable. The way healthcare is nowadays, the administrative needs of a group practice is a full-time job by itself.

 

[Iwillheal]

The entitlement expressed in these threads is obnoxious at best...

No entitlement is expressed, at least not by me. I used the terms "good enough" and "fair enough." Remember, it is the market that determines what we get paid. There is nothing obnoxious about wanting more. It may not be doable and that's fine. Some people make less, some make more. A tobacco executive might make ten times as much, and a dish washer make one fifth what I make. I feel no shame or guilt in wanting a better life for myself, wanting to own a home, to raise a family, to send kids to a good college, to take vacations, to drive a good car, to be able to pay back loans, to put away some money for retirement, etc. It is not MY fault that some people can't afford these or do not want some of these or want more things. I will try to get what I want. I may succeed and get some of those things. But I'm not going to deny myself those things just because some don't have it. If anything, during therapy, I like to help people find solutions to their problems and find ways that they too can get what they want and what they need. Why should I deny myself that very thing?

 

[deleted176373]

While people are getting so angry at the greed, here is a sampling of people I know and salaries in the NYC area:

IT associate (1 year out, age 22): 85k
IT Manager at a financial firm (6 yrs experience in the field): 170-180k depending on bonus
Broker at a Wall Street firm (1 yr experience, B.A. in finance, inside office): 135k
CPA (3 yrs experience, smaller firm): 92k
Lawyer (2 yrs experience): 67k
Web content developer (1 yr experience, Associate degree): 73k
Web content developer (3 yrs experience, bachelors degree): 83k
Marketing firm Associate (2 yrs experience, B.A. level): 110k
Case Manager (B.A. level social worker): 45k

Me - First yr psychologist (unlicensed): ~40k

Yeah, I am definitely the greedy one expecting $75k as a fully licensed psychologist. God forbid I want to pay my loans, rent, bills, and maybe buy my gf an engagement ring.

Ya, but you didn't have to take that pay... you could have kept looking. Part of the problem is that we, as a profession, allow our junior psychologists to get screwed and deal with substandard wages. It's wrong and it permeates the profession.

Me - (just about to be a first year psychologist, unlicensed): ~$105k

I don't think that you are unreasonable in wanting to earn something more, but sometimes you have to consider "less desirable" settings in order to get the money early (e.g. prisons, military, etc).

 

[valentinoRossi]

VR,

I have to laugh at your comment a bit as well. While passion for work is important, it does not correlate to wealth. You can be the best clinician ever and if you are a poor business person, you will never be wealthy. The irony is that Simmons himself never perfected a craft. Rather, he made millions of dollars off of the talent of many artists on his record label, it started with his brother and Run-DMC. Using that analogy, you would need passion for being a health insurance executive or hospital administrator.

i understand what your saying, and i totally get why my posts could come off as silly and over the top..im fully aware of it but i think i'm just being completely honest and letting my quirky thoughts flow freely

 

[Sanman]

Ya, but you didn't have to take that pay... you could have kept looking. Part of the problem is that we, as a profession, allow our junior psychologists to get screwed and deal with substandard wages. It's wrong and it permeates the profession.

Me - (just about to be a first year psychologist, unlicensed): ~$105k

I don't think that you are unreasonable in wanting to earn something more, but sometimes you have to consider "less desirable" settings in order to get the money early (e.g. prisons, military, etc).

Agreed, I could have kept looking. However, I needed money to pay bills and at the time there was a hiring freeze for all government jobs. As I am fee for service, I may make more than I stated. I actually negotiated higher fees and am doing better than a number of colleagues. Many I know are making 50k or less licensed. The problem is with licensing. There simply are not enough exempt settings. We need the the ability to bill insurance and other systemic changes.

 

[psyman]

Ya, but you didn't have to take that pay... you could have kept looking. Part of the problem is that we, as a profession, allow our junior psychologists to get screwed and deal with substandard wages. It's wrong and it permeates the profession.

Me - (just about to be a first year psychologist, unlicensed): ~$105k

I don't think that you are unreasonable in wanting to earn something more, but sometimes you have to consider "less desirable" settings in order to get the money early (e.g. prisons, military, etc).

First year, unlicensed, $105k? Do you have to torture puppies or something?

 

[Pragma]

First year, unlicensed, $105k? Do you have to torture puppies or something?

I think MarkP was miliatary...which is a lot different than for most people. I could be wrong though.

 

[G Costanza]

Anyone know if psychologists that run university counseling centers usually receive retirement benefits? The two centers that we have on my campus are both run by tenured professors so obviously they qualify.

Maybe I should first ask if university counseling centers are usually run by professors?

 

[Sanman]

First year, unlicensed, $105k? Do you have to torture puppies or something?

He is in the military and has years of experience in the military prior to grad school. I believe that his salary would be more like $60k without his previous years of service and associated pay bump. Mark, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[psyman]

He is in the military and has years of experience in the military prior to grad school. I believe that his salary would be more like $60k without his previous years of service and associated pay bump. Mark, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Yeah, that explains it. Safe to say I will never go that route!

 

[erg923]

Yeah, that explains it. Safe to say I will never go that route!

I got very tempted by that around the time I was puting togther my materials for internship. Great training, automatic job after the internship, and lots of professional support. But, in retrospect, glad my wife vetoed the idea. I love that i was able to relocate and find both an academic and clinical job in my hometown and live, litterally, back in my old neighborhood. Both my wife and I were really sick of moving around, and in the end we chose stability, family, and old friends over the military life.